Paul is widely regarded as one of North America’s top business trainers specializing in digital marketing. With over 120 appearances a year throughout Canada & the USA, he continues to help thousands of entrepreneurs and business leaders learn digital marketing strategies.
Paul is the author of Suggestology – A self-help guide on how to use the art of asking questions, and how to push a herd upstream. He first rose to prominence as a multi-award winning jazz pianist and former Arkadia Records recording artist.
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Jonathon: Welcome back folks to the WP tonic show. This is episode 426. We got a great special guest here. Adrian knows him a little bit. But we got Paul Toby with us. Now Paul is a well-known coach business advisor in Canada and also in the USA. And we’re going to be discussing online education. He has his own courses, also some deeper topics. So Paul, would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Paul: Sure. Jonathan thanks for having me on. And the question is, is it okay if I tell you a little bit about myself? Sure. So I was a professional concert jazz pianist for the majority of my life. And I know that sounds like an odd thing doing what I do these days. But it’s actually was a good thing because it taught me a lot about what it means to be successful in life. For example one of my mentors used to say it only takes two things to be successful in life. One, you have to be emotionally involved. And two, you have to repeat things over and over again until you truly understand them and get measurable results. And when he told me that, I looked back at my music career, which lasted about 22 years. And I got to see a lot of the world.
I played in 17 different countries and I was on a large American record label called Arcadia. And I recorded for them, I made eight albums. And that came to a screeching halt because there was a bunch of things that happened to me at the age of 41 that most people wouldn’t want to go through. There were some health problems, there was some, I don’t know if you know what tinnitus is, it’s about ringing in the ears. That’s not good for a musician. And Arcadia was struggling at the time because of the aftermath of 911. So because they were right next to the world trade centers. So that was the end of my recording contract and my wife and I actually went completely broke. Adrian was very young at this time. And we literally had to leave our house. We lost it to the bank and a bunch of other things happen.
And we ended up sort of living in my parent’s spare bedroom for couple of months until we sort of figured out what to do next. And then I just sort of went on this soul searching thing that trying to determine what the heck am I going to do with the rest of my life. Because and things got pretty bad financially. Because I’m pretty sure Jonathan in your audience business people don’t really need a piano player in their business. So even if I had put a resume together, it wouldn’t get me very far in the business world. And I didn’t have any business experience. So how does one transform into the place that I am now? Well, the answer is, is that not only did I walk across Spain wants to sort of figure out what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. But I also started just be learning and I picked a different school.
I went to a different school than most people go to. I already had a degree in music and that didn’t serve me very well financially. So when I went back to school, I went back to millionaire school. I went back and I learned from people who actually had measurable real world results and could teach those steps to me one by one. And I took a number of different courses, read a stack of books, and essentially just started my own business 17 years ago. And over the past 17 years, it’s turned into not just a full-fledged training company, but a marketing agency. We run a lot of online products. I’m also helping Groundhogg with his business, Adrian with his Groundhog business.
And what I’d like to say about all of that is, I think, and we talked about this before the call. Brian Klemmer said if how twos were enough, we’d all be skinny, rich and happy. And I can tell you that I’m, even though I’m a really, really smart person, I believe, I mean, I don’t know, I’ve written like nine symphonies and perform them with an orchestra. I’m sure I’m not your average sort of level of intelligence. But that didn’t mean a Hill of beans when it came to real world financial success. And so how did I turn all that around in? The answer is I had two, there was a bunch of things I didn’t know yet and I had to learn what those things are.
Jonathon: Oh, that is fantastic introduction, and a very open one. Thank you so much Paul. Adrian, would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Adrian: So for those of you who don’t know me, my name is Adrian. I’m the CEO and founder of Groundhogg. If you require any sort of marketing automation in your business. If you’re looking to do email marketing, you’re looking to save yourself a little bit of time in the delivery of your products on your website. Or you want to increase the amount of that you’re able to follow up with prospective leads. Then we offer sales and marketing tools that allow you to do that right within your WordPress website. Go to groundhogg.io where you can download our free plugin and start implementing that today.
Jonathon: That’s great. And before we go into the main part of the interview, folks, I just want to quickly mention one of our great sponsors and that is Kinsta hosting. And what Kinsta does is they only specialize in WordPress hosting. And what does that mean to you? Well, the speed of your website is really important. It’s one of the main ways that Google basically measures the effectiveness in SEO terms of your website. And speed of hosting is really important. Kinsta uses Google cloud hosting. Which is some of the best framework hosting you can buy on the market at the present moment. And what does it provide? They provide a really easy UX design interface. And they provide some of the best support on the market. I belief on the market at the present moment. All their technicians are highly trained. They are big enough to have all the resources but still small enough to really care about their customers.
If that sounds interesting for you or for your clients, go over to kinsta.com. Look what they got to offer. I’m sure you’re going to be totally blown away by their service levels. And if you do sign up, tell them that you heard about them from WP Tonic. So Paul that was a great introduction. So let`s start off with marketing automization cause we had a quick discussion before the show. I get a feeling that a lot of people think, marketing automization is going to really solve all of our problems in this company. Do you agree with that a lot of people think that way? And what’s been your experience of that idea? That marketing automization is the one in the bullet. Press that button.
Paul: So it tells me to press the space bar temporarily if I want to like, and you have to hold it, but that doesn’t seem to work anyway. So the answer to your question is multifaceted. Let me first start with marketing optimization. So do we use it? Yes. Are we considered to be experts in that? Yes. We’ve been doing it for a very long time. Yes. But various different products, not just Groundhogg, but Infusionsoft and active campaign and a bunch of others. So what we find is with marketing automation is that it will take care of the mundane marketing tasks that you do not have time to do. Especially when you’re doing for hundreds of people and sometimes thousands of people. It will follow up with them. It will book meetings, it will book consults. But what it won’t do is it won’t understand how to solve somebody’s problem.
So what you have to do in our experience is that if you want to solve somebody’s problem, you first have to understand what that problem is. You have to have experience in solving it or other problems like it before. You have to come up with a step-by-step solution that solves that problem either with or without their help. Then you have to back that up with some type of world-class support. Because if you just say, here’s how and here are the steps and here’s a document on how to do that, it doesn’t mean that they’ll be able to follow it and make sense out of it. And then finally, because it may take some time, it may take some investment in terms of dollars and resources. That person sometimes needs to be talked into it. And that that is a shift in perspective. Oftentimes we think that if how twos were enough, we’d all be skinny, rich, and happy and that’s just not the case.
Sometimes there is deeper issues. It’s like sometimes you have to look within one`s self to know why am I not succeeding? I have all the tools. I have all the automation, I have a great website, I have all of these things, yet I’m not making money. And the answer to that is, is that are you truly in service? Are you actually helping people? Do you understand universal law and how that pertains to rolling out a product that actually solves somebody’s problems? And if you help enough people get what they want, then you can have what you want. If you’re trying to take before you actually help, then that’s what’s happening in today’s entrepreneurial world. Here’s my great product. Everybody should buy it. Does that product actually solve someone’s problem without a lot of other problems being created as a result? Does that make sense?
It certainly does Paul. Over to Adrian.
Adrian: Muted the microphone. So you’re mentioning that, you h ave to help enough people or, or your, your, you have to help enough people get what they want before you can have what you want. Did I get that right?
Adrian: Okay, perfect. So how does someone quantify that they’re actually being able to do that? You know, so someone’s probably at home right now. And they think they have a great part of it and they think that they’re able to do that. How do they quantify that? Because they’re looking at their business, they’re looking at their numbers and it’s just not adding up. Do you have a strategy or is there a test that you can take to say, I am quantifying being able to do this.
Paul: So I think the answer is if you’ve solved somebody’s problem and you know that you’ve done it and that person has responded with a yes, you’ve solved my problem, thank you so much for helping me. And you’ve solved it with a step-by-step solution, a product, a service or whatever it is, and then you have a duty and a responsibility to continue to share that with other people. Whether you get paid for it or not. Now I know there’s a lot of people that are saying, well I need to get paid from my stuff. Well sometimes not always. Sometimes just the act of giving and helping will have a universal impact on the way the universe kicks back opportunity. And so often times we get stuck in that, well, I need to get paid for my stuff. And that may be true, but there’s also some other things that are happening in the background that you may not realize. So I always say this, 99% of the creative process is complete before you see any evidence in your physical reality. And oftentimes wears too much in a hurry to reap the rewards. For example, when do you harvest Adrian?
Adrian: Well generally in terms of Groundhogg, our main product is absolutely free. So we operate on a premium model. We offer our whole basically suite of tools that allow you to run almost an entire business without paying a cent. And then only when a business gets to a certain level will they actually come in, maybe shell out some dollars in order to get more advanced features or integrate other platforms.
Paul: So as someone who’s known you for quite some time, I would say you harvest when it’s harvest season. And what people in business tend to do is they try to harvest their crops before its harvest season. And so they look for evidence. I’m sure you have enough common sense to know that you don’t plant a seed in your backyard today and you run out tomorrow. Rip it out of the ground and demand to see immediate results. You nurture it, water it, transplant it, you do whatever you can until that plant eventually turns fruit or flowers or whatever the crop it is you’re trying to harvest. One of the things that I know about you is that in raising you and working with you for some time, you have patience. You are harvesting when it’s harvest season. I know your financials. I know that you’re a startup.
I know how well you’ve done and I know your profitable months and your non-profitable months. What I know is that you’re not in a hurry. You’re building things methodically. You’re also building a product based on constructive feedback, not just from us but from your clients as well. And you’re taking all of that into consideration and you’re not in a hurry. And that’s really the point that I’m trying to make. A lot of people are sitting at home going, my product is awesome. It solves the entire world’s hunger problem. I don’t understand why nobody’s buying it. And the answer is because you haven’t helped enough people yet in order for it to take on a life of its own. One of the things that I noticed with Groundhogg is that the Facebook group is now handling itself. That’s an amazing thing. When people start to use a product and they start to experience it, they start to answer each other’s questions, freeing up you and a lot of your time to build 2.0 or 3.0. Or all the things that you’re doing. Does this make sense?
Adrian: Yeah, absolutely. Jonathan.
Jonathon: Oh yeah. I just go with the flow. Paul, you also do a lot of online training. We have a, how kind of free pillars is information for the learning, entrepreneur marketing automization and of course our focus on WordPress. So we have a kind of free areas that we cover on this show. Paul. So you’ve got a fair bit of experience on online training and education. Can you give some of the things that you’ve learned some of them, a couple of mistakes you made, which you learned from when you was during your first online courses or your online training, which you think the listeners get some value from. What do you think about that?
Paul: Well, I started training when there was no such thing as online training. What we would do is back in the days of auto response plus version three and self-hosted crappy WordPress websites, we used to put out PDFs or some type of E-book platform. And that was the extent of our training. Now we have all kinds of video resources at our disposal. But even though we have all of those things, what I find is people don’t really understand two things. The first one is that your content is secondary to the context at which you present it. For example if you fill a bowl full of water, the water represents content that is being held together by the ball, but if the bowl springs a tiny little leak, all of the water, which is the content will leak out.
In the context of a presentation, information is boring for the most part. If you think about the way that it’s being delivered, if that person, for example, never pauses or asks a question or takes the time to understand how people absorb information, then that caught them. The information is just flat out boring and people won’t listen to it. Am I making sense? So I help people train on context. For example, I just finished a three day. I mean that’s literally like the shortest seminar I give is 16 hours. But I just finished a three day seminar where it was nine to [6:00] PM for three days straight called train the trainer. It’s helping people do better presentations at conventions, conferences when they’re invited to be speakers, whatever. I trained almost a thousand speakers in my career. How did I learn to speak? I have and paid for nine different public speaking teachers and mentors. And I’ve learned a lot of the context of the way that information is delivered, so that’s one.
You can have the best audio equipment, video equipment on the planet, but if you don’t know how to connect with people and you don’t know how to engage people, then your content will fail, period. It doesn’t matter how great the content is, doesn’t matter how great the information is. If people can’t absorb it and it’s not in a step by step format and it is not engaging, it won’t work. Two, in terms of the actual presentation itself, what we’ve learned is that the best way to present information is in an interactive manner. Don’t just put a bunch of videos together and throw them in an online membership site and expect people to consume them. You need automation to follow up with people to see if they’re consuming them. But even then, if that information is not interactive, you will lose a significant portion of your audience because generally you have an activated somebodies natural will to learn. We call that suggest allergy. So what’s it called?
Suggest allergy. So I wrote a whole book about it. It’s actually suggested allergy and people can buy it on Amazon if they want to. It’s called suggest allergy. Just look it up. It’s the art of activating someone’s natural will to pay attention and actually learn. And it’s a very difficult thing to learn. Typically our school system does not do this. Our school system is essentially a glorified babysitting service. And its teachers aren’t taught how to present information. They’re taught how to lecture. And if you’ve ever been to a lecture before, lectures are boring. So, but if you look at the way that we’re doing that’s ambitious and you can go check this out, that’s ambitious.com the information that we put into the membership area is recorded videos of interactive presentations. It’s not just a presentation. It’s an interactive presentation that was done via live stream.
We use Ustream. I built an entire television studio to do this with a video wall, an embedded video wall. And it’s very, very professional. He spent a lot of money putting that together. And I believe it’s second to none in the live stream sort of e-learning context. And what is it? It’s an entire year. Every other week, every other Thursday from [10:00] AM to noon, you come online or you come into our facility in Toronto. And you learn personal and professional development over an entire year. Being guided by an individual who went from zero to a, you know, I hesitate to say it. It’s funny when I say it, but you know, I’m a self-made millionaire. And I find most people don’t know how to do that. Most people don’t know how to go from where they are financially now to being solvent at all. They’re looking for just a way to pay the bills and just a way to get by.
And that’s not what I’m helping people learn. Helping people build businesses and helping people understand the context of delivery of information and how people absorb information. And I’m doing it in a very, very we’re doing it in a very, very professional way. So one is context, two is professional. Everything that you put out must be different. You know, I always make the analogy to this cause I do a lot of training for CEO`s. And they need to understand their marketing processes. And one of the things we do as an insight, advantage process, the stuff done by Bob Blum and, and those guys. But basically what does that mean? It means, well, what’s your uncommon offering? So if you’re just trying to be like somebody else, that’s never going to cut it. You have to be individualistic. You have to be unique.
You have to be different or uncommon. For example, Yeager Meister, which you may have heard of, is for most people not that great and alcohol kind of tastes like lighter fluid. But it’s very, very profitable company based on one skew. How is it profitable? Because it doesn’t have to be better. It just has to be different. And so it built it a whole following based on how different is it in the marketplace. So when I put out a live stream presentation, the TV studio is different, the video wall is different, the interactive process is different, everything about it is different. And I’m not looking for everybody as an audience, I’m looking for a high priority targets who want to engage in a very step-by-step format, personal and professional development. That’s not for everybody. I’m not looking for everybody. And I think part of the problem with today’s entrepreneurs are they’re trying to sell to everybody and therefore they’re selling to no one.
Jonathon: Yeah, I totally agree with you. It’s a hard lesson for me because I moved from America from a successful retail business which I started when I was 24 with my American wife. You had enough of English weather. And I became a general WordPress developer, strategy consultant. And then a few years ago realized that actually it’s easier if you find your niche and that’s how I got into membership. And then in management systems. We’re going to go for our break folks. This has been a fascinating discussion so far. It’s been really interesting. I did actually know that Adrian was your son actually. I can’t remember the podcast but I listened to a previous podcast that you did and you were an excellent guests. And that’s why I asked you on the show. Actually, Paul, we’re going to go for our break folks, we will be back in a few moments.
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Jonathon: We are coming back. I have been a bit mesmerized by Paul. I can tell why the CEO`s go for him. I will hand it over to Adrian.
Adrian: Sure. So in the past I used to work for those of you who don’t know, I used to work in Paul’s digital marketing agency and I did so for quite some time. And we experienced several failures in terms of actually trying to set up online content. That we would be able to actually distribute called the training business pros, membership area. And I just wanted to talk a little bit about it for a moment. Simply because this is one of the things that is it like as a real big do not do because it was just one of those things that it was always like a side project. And we didn’t really think it out that well and therefore it was never really super successful. So maybe Paul here, if you want to elaborate on a little bit about what I’m talking about. Here’s something, if you’re planning on creating a course and starting a digital learning platform, these are the things that is probably just a great idea to not do. Simply because for many of the reasons that were highlighted before the break it’s not different.
It wasn’t engaging and all of those things. So why don’t we just talk a little bit about that?
Paul: So if I get your question, you want me to tell him all the things we did wrong?
Paul: So the first big challenge that we faced was really finding a learning management system that actually did what we wanted it to.
Jonathon: I can help you there Paul.
Paul: The first one, Adrian, if I recall, was Memberium. Is that right?
Adrian: Yeah, that was the first membership platform.
Paul: Yeah. And then the next one.
Adrian: We tried Desk too, and then we tried WPP and Learn Dash. So that’s four different ones. Plus there has been a bunch of research on others as well. So I think what I’m trying to say is I think one of the mistakes we made was if you don’t know how to do something, trial and error is not always the best answer. I think maybe what we could’ve done differently was sought out a higher level of expertise in order to guide us in the beginning. And we probably would have saved a lot of time and energy. So that’s number one. Number two is, I would say we don’t need a lot of content to start a membership site. I think a lot of people try to get everything done and automated before they actually launched the project and then they launched a project and now they’re out of money. So they don’t have any money. So they don’t have any money to advertise.
They don’t have any money to. Marketing usually comes last. My answer to that is market first, deliver later. Now you must always deliver on your promises, but make sure that the promises you’re making upfront match what’s actually in the membership area. If you’re telling them that it’s ongoing training, which for example that’s ambitious, it is, have at least an outline of what’s coming. I don’t actually, you know, it’s interesting. .I don’t prepare for a two hour online session until typically the afternoon before that and all I do is put together the exercises. I don’t even need to put together the content because if I’ve heard about it, read about it and talked about it or formed an opinion about it, I don’t have to write to teach it. Until I’ve actually done it and got measurable results from it.
Then I don’t need to redo any research. I already know what the steps are and I can put that together very quickly. It’s the exercises and the interaction that matters. So if I were saying, well, what are some of the mistakes that we made in the beginning? It’s like we’re trying to figure out how to put together an entire program versus putting together one program at a time. The third thing is the interaction between the membership platform itself and the automation. People don’t consume information unless you track their response rates and you intervene when they don’t consume. Even if they’re paying. It’s amazing. Lots of people are paying for, that’s ambitious programs. They’re paying monthly. It’s being deducted from their credit cards. Yet the show rate is less than 50% per course, even though everybody’s paying. So they’re not even and are being reminded the day before. They’re being reminded half an hour before and they still don’t show. So people are busy and that’s one of the things that’s a really, that’s the, what is it? That’s what that was? They people consume information not when you’re ready to give it to them, but when they’re ready to consume it. Thank you Nancy.
Jonathon: It’s nice to have people that can tell you the answers. Isn`t it Paul?
Paul: I have an open concept office, so everybody’s sort of listening. Some people are on the phones, or doing whatever, but they’re sort of listening in.
Jonathon: Also based on my own experience Paul. It was linked to what we were discussing in the first half of the show. I find a lot of people new to the learning environment. They want to build a course based on their experience. And it was based on your about the vessel in the Water in it to prove value for their course. They literally want to throw warm piece into it, you know. It’s a 52 week course with two hours per module with additional information. And it all has to be devout before we can actually launch the course. And of course it never will be all developed. Sometimes it is, but normally it’s about so. And when it is all provided, there’s no pre testing on none of the things that you just outlined to Adrian’s question. So this diary, even the idea that it’s even really meeting the needs of the target audience. Educated guesses, they’re not fools, they are not idiots. They’re making a lot of guesswork. Is that something that you would generally agree with? Based on your own experience.
Paul: One of the initial things that I did when I transitioned out of the music business is when I went and got training. It was Harv Eker who told me that, as he said, he didn’t tell it to me personally, probably told it to 200 other people that were in this session. If you learn something and you can prove a measurable result that is significant in any way, then you actually have a duty and a responsibility to share that with other people. The problem was is that at that time I was broke. I couldn’t share business information or financial information with people because I didn’t have any. And think a lot of people, they try to jump the queue, if you will, by putting presentations together based on information that they’ve basically got from other people. Not information they’ve actually implemented. So one of the things you want to avoid is the concept of truly faking it before you make it.
I believe in the concept of faking it, but not in that context. You can’t fake information if all you’ve done is read a book and now you’re putting it together in a different format. But you actually haven’t learned anything because you don’t have the result, then you really have the right to teach that. So what was I supposed to do? I have the duty and responsibility to help, but I have nothing to help with. So then I started thinking about, what do I actually know? Well, I knew how to get a record contract. I knew how to put a tour together. I knew how to make an album. I knew how to sell an album from the stage. I knew how to package an album. I knew how to get cover work and artwork and whatever. And I knew how to play the piano.
So one of the first things I started out with was I started selling sheet music online. So what I would do is I would take public domain sheet music, actually mostly Christmas music, believe it or not. And I’d make jazz versions because that was different than most people would play at their annual Christmas concert. And they would literally downloaded by the tens of thousands of people. The largest audience I had was actually the Philippines where everybody plays an instrument. So that was a good audience for me. And then you can’t get rich at $7 a piece of sheet music. So what I did was I started making online piano lessons. Well, that’s exactly what we’re talking about. We’re talking about a considerable effort to put together 10 piano lessons, an hour to an hour and a half a piece that could actually take people from the level that they’re at to a level of improvisation and Improv on piano.
There there’s rules to follow. It’s not just winging it. But I didn’t do that. What did I do? I put up a webpage on my website that said this. I said learn to improvise in 10 weeks or less, guaranteed lessons by professional concert, jazz pianos, Paul, Toby. And then in big red letters, it said coming soon. And I put a little box there and I said, if you want these lessons, you show some interest. You give me your email address and your name and I’ll let you know when they’re ready. I didn’t even start making those lessons until there was 500 people on the list.
Jonathon: Yeah, well, so many people don’t do that. But some people they’ve got a brand name, they’ve got recognition in their target audience. But if you haven’t got that, you know, you really want to listen to what Paul’s just said because it is rather important. I’m going to put it over to Adrian.
Adrian: Just to continue on that conversation quickly because a lot of people think build it and they will come. And a lot of times that’s really just not the case. Just because you build something doesn’t mean people know that it’s there, they don’t know your story. They don’t know the value that you’re providing. Even if you have a brand and you have a following, just because you have those things and you put together a product that nobody asked for, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re following will go and buy it. So I think there’s actually, there’s more. I know that there’s more. There’s a little bit left off after the put in your email address and I’ll let you know about it. So I’m actually, I just want Paul to finish that story cause I think the follow-up after that is really, or at least the rest of the story is important, especially if you’re currently in the process of planning and putting the information together. And collecting an audience or if you haven’t started collecting an audience for whatever product we’re gonna put out there.
You definitely need to listen to the rest of the story in order to see your, the steps that I can follow almost to the letter in order to make sure that I don’t go out and spend $10,000 putting all of this information together. And then I don’t get my $10,000 back in return.
Jonathon: I think that`s great, but I think we are going to leave that for the bonus content cause we really got to wrap up the podcast part of the show. Hopefully you can stay on for another 10 minutes, which we call our bonus content, which people can view on the WP Tonic YouTube channel. If you want to see bonus content or you want to see our interviews, the earliest we normally play some on the WP Tonic YouTube channel before we actually release them as podcasts. So go over there and subscribe. Paul I’ve really enjoyed the interview so far. But if people want to find out more about you and what you’re up to, what’s the best online resources for them to go to to get that information?
Paul: That’s ambitious.com.
Jonathon: Oh, that’s cool. If only it was so simple for so many of our guests. Adrian how can people find out more about you and Groundhogg?
Adrian: So if you’ve been listening to this. Would you mind just muting your microphone, Paul? Thank you. So if you’ve been listening to this podcast and we’ve been talking a lot about marketing automation and how that ties in with the learning experience. If you’d like to find out more about how you can utilize that to increase engagement with your students, increase the number of students that you have, then you can head on over to groundhog.io to learn more about the marketing automation solutions that we provide. You can install them directly into your WordPress website and hopefully be able to start utilizing that in order to grow your business.
Jonathon: That`s great. And if you’re looking to build a learning management system or become a learning entrepreneur come to the WP Tonic website. We got a ton of information that’s all free. Plus we can help you get set up on WordPress on one of the leading learning management WordPress systems can get you up and running dramatically quicker than you do yourself. And we have a number of packages that help you do that. So if that sounds interesting, and also you can book a free half hour consultation with me, I’m pretty easy to get ahold of. We will be back next week with a similar, hopefully a great guests like Paul providing insight and information to make your learning management, your E learning journey fulfilling and profitable. We’ll see you next week, folks. Bye.
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Every Friday at 8:30am PST we have a great and hard-hitting round-table show with a group of WordPress developers, online business owners and WordPress junkies where we discuss the latest and most interesting WordPress and online articles/stories of the week. You can also watch the show LIVE every Friday at 8:30am PST on our Facebook WP-Tonic Show page. https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/