We Discuss The Realities of Running a Digital Agency Compared to Being a Successful Freelancer With Paul Lacey
Paul is proud to have completed The Witcher 3 multiple times. In real life, He has a lovely wife and 2 awesome kids to play Fortnite with every day in lockdown. His little Cavapoo dog Ellie is his soulmate, and he has 3 cats and a chicken (sadly one of the chickens had to be put to sleep today so we’re down to 1, but plan to get some fertilized bantam eggs for Mabel (surviving chicken) to hopefully get broody over (and hopefully not just eat).
A design & UX expert, Paul has been working with WordPress for over 15 years but joined the community side of things in 2016 after attending his first WordPress meetup in Birmingham.
Since then he’s been involved in all sorts of things WordPress sharing insights on design, development in communities and videos, talking on Podcast interviews, on stage at agency events, WordPress meetups, and more recently online summits – talking about WordPress development, UX, and design.
More recently Paul is probably better known for his talks in and around his journey through agency life and mental health struggles, and of course, known as the co-host for THE WORLD’S MOST POPULAR WORDPRESS PANEL SHOW (apparently right?) This Week in WordPress. Paul has an unhealthy admiration of Matt Medieros.
Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic podcast where each week Jonathan and his co-host interview the leading experts in WordPress, e-learning, and online marketing. Jonathan, take it away.
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back folks to the WP-Tonic Interview show, it’s episode 571. We have a great guest; we have Paul Lacey with us. Paul is an active web developer, he’s been an agency owner; we’re going to be talking about all things agency, freelancing, how to keep your mental health to the up and ticker, as they would say, down under, and all things WordPress. So Paul, would you like to give us a quick 20-second intro about yourself?
Paul Lacey: I’ll try. Okay. I’ve already lost five already. So, I was the co-founder of an agency called The Dickiebirds Studio which I’m currently closing down, so we’ll probably talk about that a little bit today. Prior to that, I’ve been working in WordPress either as a freelancer or an agency owner for the last 15 years or so, self-employed. More recently I’ve gone back to freelancing, I did some freelancing for BeaverBuilder and a bunch of other clients as well and did some care plans and stuff like that.
And then similar to the WP-tonic panel show that you do every week, I’m the co-host of one of your enemy shows, This Week in WordPress, which is me and Nathan Wrigley, we do a kind of weekly panel show, so we’re friends really.
Jonathan Denwood: What did Picasso say? Copying, I forgot what he said actually.
Paul Lacey: It’s the greatest form of a compliment or something.
Jonathan Denwood: Steven, I’ve got my great co-host with me. Steven, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the new listeners?
Steven Sauder: Yeah, my name’s Steven Sauder, I’m from zipfish.io. We make WordPress fast by optimizing servers in the code that runs on them.
Jonathan Denwood: Before we go into the main part of the interview, I just want to mention our major sponsor that is Kinsta Hosting. Kinsta is a WordPress hosting provider that only specializes in the hosting of large websites, like WooCommerce, LifterLMS, LearnDash, or any kind of large membership site. They offer great technology, Google cloud, all the latest versions of PHB, great support, so if you’re looking for a great hosting partner for yourself or for clients, I suggest that you go over to Kinsta and buy one of their packages.
And if you do, do that and I strongly advise you to do that, go and tell them that you heard about them on the WP-Tonic website, it helps Kinsta and it helps support the show. So, Paul, as I said, you’re greatly experienced in the WordPress community and using WordPress and you’re closing down your agency. The ending of something and the beginning of something new is always painful. I just want to discuss quickly with you; what are some of the main differences between being a successful freelancer and being an agency owner?
So, maybe on reflection, can you point out two to three major differences in the roles really?
Paul Lacey: Well, I’ve been a freelancer twice, and then in between those times I’ve been an agency owner twice as well. And I’ve been really good at one of those things and quite bad at the other one, and the one that I wasn’t very good at was the agency owner but in terms of if we’re sort of looking at a definition, my own definition of the difference between the two there’s kind of the stock definition of let’s say a freelance first.
Which is someone who’s kind of working in the sort of gig economy where they’ve got a bit of a feast or famine sort of workflow they’re working with this client. They come in, they do a job, that job could be just a few hours, or it could be a couple of weeks, but they do that job. And then they come back out of that relationship until that client or partner needs that person again. And a freelancer is generally classed as an independent individual, and sometimes that person will bring in some of their associates, but they don’t typically by the definition hire people.
An agency, on the other hand, is, I do think a lot of these things are misexplained or misdefined sometimes, but an agency on the other hand is typically seen as something where there’s a bit more of a 360-degree service offering, usually. So, you might have a freelancer, a freelancer might do Facebook ads, whereas an agency is more likely to be doing a marketing strategy, which includes Facebook ads. And they might hire that freelancer, for instance, also generally, it’s kind of expected that an agency has employed team members who are more permanent than freelancers.
Again, it’s not always the case, and an agency is often seen as a business that is intended to grow. So, it starts out, it has a period of investment where it needs to build up clients and all that sort of stuff, and the general idea that people always talk about is scaling it. On the flip side, you have your freelancers where the general criticism of the idea of freelancing is that there’s like a ceiling that you can reach and when you reach that ceiling, you’re out of hours to work, so you need to turn into an agency.
And those are the definitions that I kind of run by, but I actually disagree with those definitions as well, to a certain extent because they’re a little bit too rigid, I think. And there’re some misconceptions I think in there as well. I don’t know if we want to get into those.
Jonathan Denwood: I just have a quick follow-up question before I throw it over to Steven, is that you said you’ve been an agency owner twice and the rest of the time being a freelancer. So, looking back I think Dickiebird is your last agency. What would you say was one of the major problems that you faced with that agency that led to your decision to close it down?
Paul Lacey: Here’s the thing. So, when you’re a successful freelancer, which a lot of us get to, you get to this virtual glass ceiling where you’re supposed to not be able to earn any more money or something, and you will have a lot of friends potentially that are also freelancers or agency owners. And they will always have that in the same way that when you go to like a family get together, and if you’re not married, but you’re with a partner for a long time, they’ll start saying, when are you getting married?
And then when you get married, they’re like, when are you having kids? Or if you’ve got kids, they’re like, when are you getting married? That’s wrong or something, but you can have a lot of these conversations with your peers and then be like, oh, you’re a freelancer, there’s a ceiling to that. You should really start an agency. And there’re not many people that you meet that will say the opposite, like, oh, do you know what? You’re a freelancer, maybe you should look at some alternative streams of income to complement your freelance work and start mixing things up.
But, and the reason I sort of professed that with your question; was that for me, I was a successful freelancer and I’m a creative and a developer. And I felt that the right thing to do was starting an agency, but I was completely the wrong kind of personality, I’m a creative, I’m a doer, I’m a technician and such and going into a situation where you to earn the same money. You’ve almost got to earn five times the same money if you’re employing a couple of people in the agency to take on that stress that you don’t realize.
You often jump into these situations with lots of optimism, blind optimism, which is good, but it’s good to listen to a few people sometimes who’ve been there and can give you a couple of the warnings and the things to watch out for as well. So, in terms of what went wrong, I think a good creative or developer, isn’t always a good fit to be a good CEO, and I think that’s where it went wrong for me. The company didn’t completely fail, but me personally, I was just burning out and constantly looking for little signs that maybe things were okay and stuff like that.
But I heard something the other day, the only thing that a rundown CEO can do is rundown his own company or other company or whatever. But that’s where it came to I think in the end and I just got to a point, I watched a Disney film at Christmas called, Soul, I think it was called. I watched that film with my family, just sitting there normally at the end of the film; it’s one of those kinds of films it’s about what you should be doing in life and that kind of thing.
And I just burst out in tears in front of my six-year-old and 13 years old, and they’re probably wondering what the hell is wrong with dad. Yeah. It was a bit sad at the end, and I did lots of this kind of bursting out crying moments in the [Cross-Talking 00:09:59].
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, I have a break especially with some of my clients, I was trying to be flippant there but it’s true.
Paul Lacey: I think every time you start to, I think the crying aspect, I’ve put it on my Twitter profile, I’m a cry baby because I was for the last year, but kind of the outward emotion is helpful because you start to realize there’s something wrong. And when you’re holding it all in, but eventually it gets to a point where you just have to really have a good conversation with yourself and watch a good Disney film, and you’ll be all right.
Jonathan Denwood: There they go, over to you, Steven.
Steven Sauder: Man, I just like hearing what you’re saying, it resonates with me a lot that there’s a lot I think of society that pressures you to keep building bigger and keep going for more. And there’s nobody that’s saying, hey, maybe if you just go for a little bit less, your life will actually be a lot more valuable or a lot more, you have more free time, you have more control over what happens. And when you get into that agency flywheel or bandwagon or whatever you can’t stop because you have other people that you’re trying to pay and you have to press harder and harder and harder and harder.
And it just feels like it gets bigger and bigger as time goes on. Do you think there’s a point where it becomes easier though? Where, if you can figure out the path through the agency route that the agency life becomes easier, or do you think running an agency because it involves more people you always can’t just say, okay, you know what? I need to pause for the next week and take a week’s vacation with my family or whatever because there’re 10 people or however big your agency is depending on you.
Paul Lacey: For the right person, it’s the right job, it’s the right thing to do. Let’s say you worked in digital marketing or something like that for the last 10 years in maybe corporate sales in another agency or something like that. You never tried to do the design, you never tried to do development, and your job was to build great relationships with clients to pull in sales and to work with your team. Let’s say you worked in that kind of company. You were made redundant from your job, you got a $40,000 payout or something like that, and you’re wondering what to do.
You already have the right mindset about, this is what I do, I create the relationships and keep the sales coming in; I now need to use my $40,000 to either go on holiday and get another job, or I can invest it in a team or some associates and try and actually build an agency. And that person knows from the get-go what it is that they’re trying to achieve, and I think that creatives and developers, not everybody, but a lot of us will come from an angle of okay, I need to earn a bit more money, and I want to have more impact on the work that I do.
And it’s not a good bet to jump into the CEO role of an agency and think that, that’s the most likely outcome, it might be. And as I said the person who comes out of corporate sales and he’s got the right mindset for it, will probably have a situation in maybe six years because it takes five to six years to build a really good business like that, where they’re building out awesome work. But the gamble is definitely not in their favor there’re a lot of agencies that don’t achieve great work, they achieve a lot of mundane work and they keep the bills paid and they keep the lights on.
Maybe the CEO can go on holiday or something, and there’re some people looking after stuff, but you also hear a lot of CEOs who go on holiday. After six years of running a business and they still can’t go on holiday, and the whole thing doesn’t fall apart when they’ve arrived home. So, I think there is a way through it, there is lots and lots of advice out there on how to do it, there’re all sorts of courses and blueprints and stuff like that. But you have to match the skills and the situation with the right person, and my learning point from all of this is you can think for yourself and think what do I actually want to do?
And then have conversations with people around you and think for yourself and weigh up all the different options and think, what is the best route for me? Is it a job, freelance, or agency? So, yeah, I think there is a way to do it, I just was never personally able to get the right mix because it wasn’t the right thing for me and such.
Steven Sauder: Do you think that or it sounds like you’re saying that it is a problem that mainly plagues the producers of the work, the designers or the developers. But if you start from an I can’t do the sort of thing like I’m just a relationship kind of alley, the relationships are the work that you’re doing. And the selling and the client management and count executive or however, or whatever’s going on. There’s primarily an issue that plagues the work doers or work creators.
Paul Lacey: I think it is an issue for those people. We were talking earlier about a book called The E-Myth revisited, which I read and spoke about on some podcasts a couple of years ago. And I think I misinterpreted what the book was telling me to a certain extent, but that’s books and advice where you can look at it from different angles. I think it is the case, what this book kind of talks about is this story about this baker who is really good at her baking as a small kind of artisan business, just herself baking cakes for a certain amount of people.
And she wants to scale it up, and what she really struggles with is that everything that is successful about her business is her and her skills. So, she didn’t realize that she’d built up a really positive personal brand and that it was not that she could sell more cakes; it was the people who wanted the cakes made by her. So, when she starts a business she has to get to work, getting a premises, getting all the equipment, hiring some team to do some of the baking and stuff like that, and what she finds is she’s no longer making the cakes and all the customers don’t think that they taste as good anymore.
And so, she’s losing customers and she’s managing people and she’s getting up at 4:00 AM in the morning to turn the baking machines on and all that sort of stuff and she’s finishing 10:00 PM at night and that kind of thing. And I don’t know if it’s a true story or not, the book kind of says that as it is, but it just kind of shows that those doers, the artisans, the designers, the creative, it’s very, very difficult if you love the work that you do to detach yourself from it and say, okay, for the next five years, I’m going to think in a completely different way.
I’m not worried about my quality of work, I’m going to build it back up so that in five years’ time, my reputation, but as an agency, this time is all really good. So, they get involved in everything, they hire the staff, they’re trying to run the bakery, they’re trying to make the cakes at the same time, they burn out, the customers aren’t happy, the staff leave because they just have a grumpy CEO all the time and it doesn’t really work out for them. So, I think it is a bit of a curse of the creatives and the writers and the artisans, I believe anyway.
Steven Sauder: Yeah, that’s really the point, sorry about that, John.
Jonathan Denwood: I think it’s time for us to go for our break. We’ll be back in a few moments with this great discussion, we’ll be back soon.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back and we’ve had a great discussion with Paul so far. I thought that was a great example, Paul, but I think that you said some real words of wisdom in the first half of the show there. And definitely, I think there’re a lot of ways to reduce the risk here and it’s based on my own bitter experience about how I run WP-Tonic. And maybe we can go into that in this half, or probably leave it to the bonus content that people can watch on the YouTube channel.
But what I think one of the main key points in which a lot of creative struggle is when you have an agency, you really have to focus on sale relationships and sales and marketing materials that can position the agency or the business and put you in front of your target audience. And you have to really understand who your target audience is, which is a totally other subjects, and I think a lot of people that are very good at coding or very good at graphic design or whatever their superpower is.
They really struggle with that, Paul, because it’s like, they’re giving up the reason why they got involved in the industry in the first place, and they’re just doing something which they don’t really want to do.
Paul Lacey: Exactly. Yeah. And there’re other ways if you’re a freelancer, the positive things that I’ve realized about being a freelancer is that there is another path to going, okay, the only way I move forward from here is to do something I don’t want to do for five years and risk messing it all up. And I think this is the thing about all three of us here are on a podcast and we’re involved in many different things like that. And I know that all three of us know the benefits that this brings and to a certain extent it’s around personal branding.
And I know that that can be kind of, some people don’t like to say that word if they’re kind of blue-collar working-class or something like that. No, I don’t want to talk about personal branding, no, no, no, no. But at the end of the day, we do have to remember that we are experts in what we do when we get to a certain point in freelances, and we shouldn’t be shy about becoming a bit of a voice from time to time in different communities where we can build a better reputation.
And the thing I’ve noticed as a freelancer as well is that the more personal branding type stuff that you do, the more you become a voice, first of all, you enjoy it because it’s fun and you get to meet other people. But secondly, all sorts of doors open all of the time, I had a really good job offer, I didn’t take it. I had a really good job offer just last week, a phone call with one of the top guys in one of the most famous WordPress companies heard that I was going to freelance again.
And obviously, if I was not known in the WordPress world at all, then this person’s not going to call me and offer me this opportunity. And that’s as a result of being a voice, I’ve got no product to sell, I’m never going on things and selling my services, I haven’t even got a website at the moment I’m in the in-between stage at the moment.
Jonathan Denwood: I just don’t know how you can live with yourself, Paul.
Paul Lacey: Yeah. I don’t know how to make websites. I don’t know I’m going to try and learn or something. But yeah, I think with being a freelancer, it’s not true that you hit a ceiling; these days in the world that we live in, in WordPress, there’re a lot of opportunities for monthly recurring or annually recurring income. There are a ton of opportunities for that, right now, 50% of my income at least comes from care plans, and another 25% of that income comes from my retainer working with the guys over at BeaverBuilder and that’s before I do any project work at all.
So, the project work is almost a bonus on top of that, so you can get yourself into a situation where you go, okay, I’m in the gig economy for a while, but I’m going to look for a good partnership with someone in the industry, whether that’s a WordPress brand and have a part-time retainer situation with those.
See if I can get some recurring income through things like website care plans, and maintenance, and stuff like that, and do you know what? If I’m going to go and be a voice for a while then that starts creating new opportunities to think about things like digital products as well. Whereas if you go into an agency as a CEO, I know I’m really giving that concept a real bashing at the moment, and that’s just because I’ve been burned from it.
But if you go into that role as a CEO and you hire people, you do have a responsibility to be looking out for the growth of that company and the people you’ve convinced to come and work for you. So, you can’t really go, I’m the CEO, this company, I’m writing a book, I’m doing this course, I’m going to do a retainer as well as doing the CEO stuff. I’m going to work for this company as well, because the people who are investing in you by deciding to work with you, are looking at you and going, you’re not really that dedicated, are you.
And if you are doing that, you’re not dedicated are you, you’re not dedicated to your agency, it’s a stepping stone.
Jonathan Denwood: I totally understand where you’re coming from, Paul and I agree with you to some extent; it’s just that, truly if your activities will benefit the business, you see the business actually as an individual, as long as your activities, you can say to yourself I have a short, medium, long-term strategy. And what I’m doing is benefiting the business short, medium, and long-term, it’s okay. If you can’t really say that in your heart, that what your activities as the front person of that business is helping that business short, medium, and long, you do have a problem. Over to you, Steven.
Steven Sauder: Yeah. There’s something that’s just, I don’t know, I think can bring a lot of peace or calm to one’s life when you realize that you don’t have to do something. Like we’ve been saying this whole time, just because the world is telling you, oh, go bigger, go build your agency, there’s something pushing everyone in that direction. You don’t have to do that, if you’re happier being a freelancer, why do something that is going to cause more stress or be harder to not work out if you like doing what you’re doing?
I think something that’s always fascinating to me is how one’s perspective changes and shifts over time. And you’ve mentioned that book that you had read, you had a different perspective than earlier, how was your perspective changed from when you read it, two years ago to now?
Paul Lacey: So, when I read it a couple of years ago, when I was starting the most recent agency, I was convinced that I needed to do this agency thing. And obviously, there’s like we say, all the messaging that you hear there, isn’t many courses to say, hey, here’s the course on how to not start an agency and how to not scale it, there’s just no point buying that course. And there’s no point in someone making it, it doesn’t sell very well but when I read it two or three years ago, I read it as an instruction manual on how most people get it wrong, and I saw that as an aha.
So, what I need to do is I need to start this and I need to get myself a manager as soon as possible, and then I can release myself into being the creative side of things again. Whereas now having been through that process, I realized that the way I’ve interpreted the book this time is don’t start an agency. So, it’s kind of like, yeah, which is the interesting thing, it’s like the way I’ve interpreted the book, it’s funny just reading it again and seeing that it’s also saying the reason, basically, the book is about why 80 or 90% of businesses fail, that’s actually what the book is all about.
And it’s also partly about why McDonald’s as a company succeeds from a franchise point of view because people who buy a franchise in McDonald’s can be entrepreneurs, but the management is taking care of them for them. At least the sales, the marketing, all that stuff is taken cared of them. So, they can be the manager and the entrepreneur without the strategy side of things, they can just look after the local lights thing.
But yeah, as I said, the book this time that I read it and I was listening to the advice in there and I thought, yep, you could do that, that could work, you could hire the missing parts of the triangle, or you could read another book by someone like Paul Jarvis called The Company of One. If you’ve ever heard of that book at all, that’s an awesome book. I love Paul Jarvis’s perspective on things, and then you’ve got other voices in the community. Lee Jackson, who I know has been on WP-Tonic quite a few times.
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, I think he’s given up on me, Paul.
Paul Lacey: Has he? So, he has this thing called agency transformation, which is an event that he runs, and you would assume that that event is all-around growth but it’s not, Lee’s angle is all about wellbeing. Because he was severely burned in his kind of first major attempt at a web agency, he got himself into a lot of trouble, a lot of stress, a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety, and it still carries on with Lee now. He’s still got bad memories of that stuff that haunt him and come back and hold him back from different situations.
So, his whole community is all about good wellbeing, so if you are going to run an agency, these things about making sure you do it in a way that isn’t what all the messages say, but just the way that you feel comfortable, balance, that’s what he’s about. So, yeah, it’s interesting, you can just read into these different messages in a totally different way. Yeah.
Steven Sauder: I guess what I would love to know, and maybe this is too personal if you don’t want to go there that’s totally fine. But why didn’t that work? Because in my head, that’s exactly where I would take that book, like, okay, hire the manager, hire the right people, and then you can make it work, but what happened to make you realize that, that doesn’t work? Or that it doesn’t work for you at least.
Paul Lacey: So, my plan was to raise enough money to hire a manager, and it took two years to get to that point where we could afford that, so it was a case of, okay, I’ll do everything more or less, we have a team of what you call kind of technicians as such. So, the people in my team personal business partner Peter who is also a designer, and then Adrian, who we brought in as a developer.
So, well, me and Peter kind of hired versions of ourselves in a way but in hindsight, I think that it would be a really good idea if someone starts something like this, and they were creative to get that project management position that gets rid of all the daily junk. Because you’re the CEO, you’re the team maker, either you’re the personal accounts person, you’re the shoulder to cry on when people in the company are having a bad time or something like that, you all know some things.
So, the sooner you can take away those things and be happy with the role that you’re going to take the better, because and what I understand. There’s a bit of a let’s say British mentality versus the American mentality. Car sales, British company promotes their best salesperson to the manager, and I could be wrong, this is totally generalizing. The American car sales company just pays the best car salesperson double and gives them a fat bonus.
The British company and I’m British, so I’ve got that mentality as such, I guess I just lost my best developer and designer by promoting myself to the CEO. Whereas it would be much better to put in place someone at the beginning, somehow get some money for that, whether that’s investment or partner with someone and make sure that I’m doing the good thing that I was doing. Being the person doing the branding for the company, doing the designing, doing some of the development, being a happy chappy inside my own company kind of thing.
So, I think that is the way to do it. And I think the trouble with that is the planets have to align in a really perfect way to get that right, and I think that’s why so many companies struggle because they start 10 paces back from where they need to be. And then they’re racing forward to try and get there but if you sprint the first hundred meters of a 3000-meter race, you’ll be winning for the first few seconds, but that’s about it unless something happens to the rest of the people in the race.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I think those were great words, we’re going to finish off the podcast part of the show. Hopefully, Paul is going to stay on for another 10, 15 minutes, which we call bonus content, which you’ll be able to see on the WP-Tonic YouTube channel and on the WP website with the whole interview, plus the bonus content. So, Paul what’s the best way for people to find out more about you? And how old are you?
Paul Lacey: Twitter is probably the best way to connect the name and quite honestly, the thing I’m most interested in these days is just meeting other people in this WordPress community. So, connect on Twitter, WP_PaulLacey, and let’s just connect [Cross-Talking 00:34:24].
Jonathan Denwood: We also plug your podcast.
Paul Lacey: Also, you can find me here every Monday at 2:00 PM, UK time we have the This Week in WordPress podcast, which is a panel news show, which is similar to your own show that you do on WP-Tonic. So, it’s just talking all about the crazy world we live in at the moment called the WordPress economy, whatever we call it.
Jonathan Denwood: My panel is very patient because we diverge all over the place actually, Paul.
Paul Lacey: Guys, it’s so much to talk about at the moment with WordPress it’s brilliant.
Jonathan Denwood: Steven, what’s the best way for people to get hold of you?
Steven Sauder: Yeah. Head over to zipfish.io to run a speed test and see how much faster you can make your website.
Jonathan Denwood: And before we wrap up the show, Spencer Foreman and I, who’s a regular on the WP-Tonic round table show. We’re doing a free webinar on Friday, the 12th of March, and it’s all going to be about marketing automation with a real focus on helping the membership entrepreneur. If you’re using Lifter LMS, LearnDash, or any platform, we’re going to be showing you how to build modern funnels and how to use marketing automation to keep your students paying their monthly fees or attracting other students to your membership website.
How do you join up for this webinar? Basically, go to the WP-Tonic website in the top navigation there’s a button that says webinar, you click it, you sign up and you’ll be notified when we will be going live. The reason why you should join us live is that you’ll be able to ask us direct questions, Spencer and I about this whole fascinating area. So hopefully, we’ll see you on the 12th of March at 10:30 Pacific Standard time. We’re going to close the podcast part of the show, but please join us on the WP-Tonic YouTube channel, and you can watch the rest of this interview. We’ll see you soon, thanks. Bye.
Every Friday at 8:30am PST we have a great and hard-hitting round-table show with a group of WordPress developers, online business owners and WordPress junkies where we discuss the latest and most interesting WordPress and online articles/stories of the week. You can also watch the show LIVE every Friday at 8:30am PST on our Facebook WP-Tonic Show page. https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/
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