As a Small Player Can You Succeed In The WordPress Ecosystem In 2022?
Brian Jackson is the joint founder with his brother of Forgemedia a WordPress focus plugin shop that has a small but interesting library of commercial plugins.
Also, Brian was for a period of time the chief marketing officer at Kinsta and was one of the key people in Kinsta connected to helping it grow as one of the leading WordPress managed-to-host providers in the last 5 years. Here is a list of their plugins.
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Full Transcript of The Interview
Intro: Welcome to the WP-tonic WordPress and SaaS podcast, Jonathan Denwood and his co-host Steven Sauder interview the leading experts in WordPress e-learning and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SAS. Take it away, guys.
Steven Sauder: Welcome back folks to the WP-Tonic podcast. Its episode is 659. Today we got Brian with us. Brian, you want to, introduce yourself?
Brian Jackson: Yeah, so yeah, Brian Jackson, right now just, the co-founder of Forge media, it’s just a small little, I don’t even know what you call it. So I guess it’s a little WordPress plugin development company. That, is our primary focus right now, and we do some content too, but it’s mainly plugin development.
Steven Sauder: Awesome. And we got, Jonathan Denwood, the owner of WP-Tonic you wanna introduce yourself quickly?
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, sure. I just love, Brian he is so unassuming, one of the leading professionals in the content, production area and, work for Kinsta and got a great, WordPress plugin shop that’s what I love about Brian, he’s unassuming. I’m the founder of WP tonic. We help; e-learning entrepreneurs build great membership websites on WordPress back over to you, Steven.
Steven Sauder: Awesome. So today we’re gonna be talking about, as a small player, can you succeed in the WordPress ecosystem in 2022? There are some really big players out there. But Brian’s been a player for a while and has kept things, lean mean, and small. So I’m really interested to hear, Brian’s story. But first, we’re gonna take a quick break and, hear from our major sponsor, but we’ll be right back
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Steven Sauder: All right, coming back, just heard a message from our major sponsor Castos and they have some great deals. You can find the deal at WPTonic.com/recommendations. That’s WP-Tonic.com/recommendations. You can buy some great deals from Castos and some other, providers, for WP-Tonic. all right, so, Brian, let’s just jump in here and kind of talk maybe about the backstory a little bit, how Forge Media started, how long ago did you guys start and, kind of just that, that early journey before we get into, the 2022 ecosystem, just a little context.
Brian Jackson: Yeah. Let me actually have to pull up my LinkedIn here. I want to actually see. Yeah. So forge media has been around since 2014. Like we actually registered the name and like the LLC, like way, before we thought it was gonna do anything, just because of, any money on the side, we kind of wanted to, like run through, for tax purposes and stuff. Yeah. So, the company itself has been around for a while, but, we really didn’t do much with it other than, I had a blog for a while. We have a workup blog. It’s kinda like a marketing blog and then I actually run a gluten-free blog too. And that’s kind of why I started the LLC was just to run any kind of ad revenue, stuff like that through the LLC.
After a while we, Brett, my brother, who’s also the co-founder. He was working for a health insurance-type company doing WordPress development. So he was a full-time WordPress developer. I was working at Kinsta as the chief marketing officer, I was doing, all sorts of content, social media, anything you can think of as far as to even stuff on the website, I was pushing GitHub, commits I was just all, anything you can think of, I was doing. And, after a while we kept trying to solve things, I guess you could say, on our workup blog. So like we were trying to run these coupons on the side and dynamically change them. And so we launched our coupons plugin just for fun. Like, we didn’t think it was gonna do anything.
We kind of threw it on our own sites and people started asking like, can we have that too? We’re like, we didn’t really plan on selling this, but I guess we can. And so we kind of just, in the evenings for fun dove into like the EDD ecosystem and eCommerce, and like, how would we, wrap this up into something we could like give to other people? So it kind of all started with the coupons plugin to be honest. And that we kind of just slowly started building, it was really slow. We didn’t like to plan to become a plugin shop or anything. And, I was still at Kinsta and, I was, most of my challenge at Kinsta was solving performance issues with WordPress. So all the content related to how to speed up WordPress, how to tweak your site, all that sort of stuff.
I kept seeing problem areas where people would have, just tweaking little scripts here and there and all sorts of stuff. So I asked my brother, of course, who’s a developer like, Hey, can we put, like all these little tweaks and hacks into like, just our own little plugin, like, so I can stop doing all these crazy things. And so that’s how our Perfmatters plugin was born, was just taking all these random hacks obviously we cleaned them up and, like out of a UI and all that stuff. But, we said like, well, let’s just try what we did with coupons. Let’s, put it in EDD. We know how to use EDD now. Because we had learned that, let’s just put a small price tag on it and see if anybody’s interested.
at the time WP rocket, auto-optimize, there are these other plugins, doing this stuff, but we kind of wanted to do our own thing and being at Kinsta, we kind of were looking at more of the managed space, I guess, because I was working with a lot of just those types of clients. Not so much like your blue host, GoDaddy, those types of clients. And so we were like, let’s just skip cash in, cuz these hosts have cash in, there’s already great cash in plugins out there for free. So like, we kind of like said, let’s just do what we’re trying to fix on our own sites. And fast forward, like a couple of years, that’s kind of always worked for us is like, how can we fix stuff on our own sites? And then like, it seems like people actually want that. So it’s kind of always been our business model from there on out.
Long story short, I got burned out at Kinsta doing too much stuff. For those of who you, who aren’t aware, like Kinsta grew really, really fast. I’m always more of like a grinder. I like doing the work and it was coming into like, I was kind of, becoming a manager and it’s just not a role I really wanted to fit into. And by the time it got to the point where like, oh, can we shift you around and do something out? I was just kind of exhausted so I was like, I gotta take a step back here. And so I decided, we had some stuff going on the side at that point just slowly built over years basically. And so I was like, let’s just see what happens. The worst that can happen is I’ll get my break, the business won’t work and I’ll have to just find another job or something, that’s the worst that could happen.
I decided to quit. And I pinged my brother actually. And by chance he hated his job at the moment so he was like, I’m quitting with you. So we’re like, both of us we said, what’s the worst gonna happen? We both have at least enough skills to like, hopefully, find another job if at all, I don’t wanna swear, but if s**t hits the fan, I would just go apply for another job. We went full-blown with our plugins and kind of marketing and my gluten-free site, the workup marketing blog, just kind of everything that was kind of making some money. We kind of just, we were working like 40 plus hours a week on them. And it just kind of kept building and building and it’s never stopped since then.
Ironically we both quit on January 20, 2021, like a month before the pandemic hit. So we did not know that was coming when we quit our job. And was it 2020 or 2021? I get the years of just blurred last two years.
Steven Sauder: 2020, probably
Brian Jackson: 2020. Okay. Yeah.
Steven Sauder: No, 20 19 20, Yeah. See, now, now I’m getting lost in the cycle of everything.
Brian Jackson: It was, a month before, whenever the pandemic started and so, yeah, we didn’t know that was coming, but ironically it turned out really well for us, I guess, a blessing to disguise because turned out the niche we were in like people were just, I guess, staying home, buying plug-ins all day trying to launch websites and I guess reading gluten-free blogs maybe. Our stuff just kept growing through the pandemic. I’ve heard a lot of that similar stories, I guess, maybe not like super growth, but just like steady growth through the pandemic. For certain niches, especially even like hosting providers and stuff, they just seem like huge growth from the pandemic. I know I’ve talked with people at Kinsta, because I’m still friends with a lot of them, and like, yeah, they just boomed because of that. So it’s crazy how that impacted everything, but, that’s kind of how our business started and it just, I guess, never stops since then.
Steven Sauder: That’s cool. one quick question at what point in time would’ve you start telling people that you are, a co-founder run, like a WordPress shop, a WordPress plug-in company, like where in that arc, would that happen?
Brian Jackson: I’m very, OCD about social media. So like I switched everything immediately. Like when I quit Kinsta like I went and changed my Twitter bio, my LinkedIn bio. I like to keep all my social stuff. Like just like all the backlinks pointing at what I’m working on. Just so like any little piece of traffic, I can grab or branding or eyeballs is like what I’m working on. I have a Trello card of like it’s called like bio brand or what I call it. And it has like over 500 links of where like my bio is listed on different sites and stuff. So like, I changed jobs. Like I literally go through that Trello card and just boom, boom, boom, boom.
Steven Sauder: So would’ve been when you quitted Kinsta that, that
Brian Jackson: When I, quit Kinsta yeah, which was, I guess 2020 or 2019, whatever. But yeah, I, changed things immediately. I mean, I wasn’t worried about like, if it didn’t work out, I just have to change stuff again. I’m not worried about that. And my brother, he’s not a social media guy; I don’t even know what his stuff says at the moment. He doesn’t, he hates Twitter. He doesn’t do any of that stuff. So he’s your classic like he likes to code all day and he’s done at five and he likes to go do other things like play Xbox. So that’s what he does.
Jonathan Denwood: So Brian, what’s been some of the major obstacles around getting Forge Media up and running and supporting both you and your brother over the past 18 months. Can you give some insights about how you’ve overcome them?
Brian Jackson: There were, I mean, quite a few obstacles we ran into. I mean, even, I mean, as a business owner, I’m sure you guys know too that it’s just like every couple months or something new that pops up that it’s just like, you’re just banging your head and its like, how do I solve this? And it’s just, yeah, but I think couple one was first off. I don’t recommend going into a business without a business plan. We kind of just, I mean, if you have skills and like I said, the worst thing that could happen is we’d have to find another job. So I do think there is some advantage in taking the risks because looking back now, I don’t regret my decision. I think I needed a break mentally and physically from my old job. And so taking the risks to just try something new, I think it worked out really well. So, and it did for my brother too.
I think sometimes taking a risk can be good. I think have, maybe a small idea of what you want to do or something, but, I think a couple of the challenges we found was, I’ve had a hard time finding time to produce content, which is kind of my true passion because once I got into running the business and the plug-in development stuff, that stuff just kind of all flew by the side. And my whole goal with quitting Kinsta was like, I’m just gonna go blog full time. Like that’s what I really like to do. And that’s not really what happened. I kind of had to follow where we were making money and I think if you have multiple projects like we do where like some are content some are ad revenue some is a plugin like you really have to spend your time on what’s paying the bills kind of a thing.
So ours was like more of the plugin stuff. So, that was our time was just trying to find time to write content anymore. And so I’ve had to like schedule, like, like really get OCD about the intro. Like I want to at least get this blog post done. Like regardless of what happens, if it means I have to, even finish it in the evening or on a Saturday or Sunday, like just do that. That’s been hard. Another thing that’s been hard is for me, I’m a workaholic. I’ve always had trouble with this. I’ve burnt out multiple times at multiple jobs. And I would say running your own business, it’s even a harder, thing because at Kinsta, you shut off and you don’t see the team members, they’re all in slack. You can’t step away for some part, I had trouble doing that, but when you’re running your own business, it’s like, man, if I worked more, I could make even more money or like, it’s like there’s no margin because it’s all profit for yourself basically.
So if you work more, you make more money it’s an entirely different way of thinking instead of working for somebody else. I think that I have a good handle on that now. That took a little during the pandemic, kind of like figuring out how I can just step away. And, I actually shut my phone and my laptop off on Saturdays now. And like, I don’t even look at emails or anything. So even if I’m just binging Netflix or, like I try to go do other stuff, but even if I’m just binging Netflix I’m not looking at my computer or like answering tickets or doing stuff. So I usually try to catch up on Sundays so Monday’s not like, but, Saturday is the one time I just shut stuff off. When I was at Kinsta, that was really hard to do just cuz it was, we had a different type of environment and just stepping away for 24 hours was not something you could do at that point in time. I think now they can because they have departments. But when you don’t have departments, it’s hard to step away for 24 hours for a hosting company.
So for me, it was kind of figuring out the work-life balance. Other hard things were random, like VAT how to pay VAT taxes, and stuff. Oh my God. That was like, I don’t consider myself an expert now, but like I know way more than I ever wanted about how to pay VAT and the mini one-stop-shop. And then I had to figure out all again when Brexit happened because the mini one-stop-shop in the EU stopped taking stuff for the UK.
So now, I have to do the UK through, I just do the UK through the UK government side. And it’s just, ridiculous. Like the VAT stuff is crazy. And looking back in time, it makes you question your decisions about like, should you go with EDD or go with, I forget the names now, but there are other solutions out there, that like handle VAT a lot better. Like they’re like a kind of a one-stop shop for selling WordPress plugins. And EDD does not do everything. Let’s just put it that way. I love EDD, but you got there are a lot of moving parts they don’t think of.
Jonathan Denwood: Just a quick follow-through question before we go for a break. Why, why didn’t you look at, WooComerce
Brian Jackson: The big reason was performance. I am not a fan of WooCommerce. It’s just bloated for what we needed to do. I think WooCommerce is great for a lot of people. But for us, all we needed to do was upload zip and literally distribute a license key. That’s literally all we needed. And so EDD does a great job at that and, and keeping like everything else, super lightweight, the problem is with that lightweight part Sometimes they don’t do everything as well, which is, the tax stuff. So, thankfully I think it’s Barnes, it’s the plugin shop. They release the EDD VAT plugin kind of saved my butt on that one. So I I’ve praised them a lot on social because I think they found a niche that they knew like people were struggling there. And so the EDD VAT plugin is like is, is awesome. We use it on all of our plugin sites, honestly, I don’t know what I would’ve done without it. So yeah, it’s great. I love plug-in developers that are like solving problems.
Steven Sauder: I feel like I remember a round table where you vowed that you’ll never use woo commerce on any site
Brian Jackson: I think on the WP-Tonic show before. Yeah. I still stand by that. I will never use WooCommerce. Nothing against it. I mean, I work with clients that use WooCommerce literally every single day. I rarely see EDD on clients’ sites, to be honest. Yeah. And yeah, it’s just, I like EDD I like Pippin and I like the developers that are on the team. I know we sold it off now to [inaudible] and WP beginner. But actually, I’ve seen some positive changes. Like I’ve seen their devs, like going in there, like change, like let’s fix this, how it looks in our other plugins. And some of that’s not always too bad. I can see them just like trying to tackle all the GitHub issues that have kind of been like sitting there for maybe years and
Jonathan Denwood: Well say [inaudible] and his team he’s got extensive organization. With Thomas. I think he’s a technical partner. They know what they’re up to, don’t they?
Brian Jackson: Oh yeah. They’ve done this multiple times. And so, I think it’s actually gonna be really good for EDD cuz, it’ll give us thoughts for like analytics cuz they have their analytics plugin, EDD does not have to know how to do charts. Like that’s something they suck at. I report and so their team does know how to do that amazingly. So like I’m looking forward to seeing all that expertise like flow into the EDD ecosystem.
Jonathan Denwood: Sure. Cool. All right. We, we need to take a quick break here. But we will be right back
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Steven Sauder: All right, coming back, quick note, please join us on the WP-Tonic mastermind Facebook group. You can find out what, WP-Tonic is all about, join the discussion, watch the show and see the show notes. so, diving back into the conversation here, I kind of wanna get to, kind of maybe some of your views on the ecosystem of WordPress in 2022 and what you are seen or experienced, as a smaller shop. Is there a lot of pressure coming from larger shops out there? Is there still space for people to operate? Like what’s your general take on that?
Brian Jackson: I mean, I always, we took a different approach. When we started our stuff, like our goal was we always want to stay small. I think both of us coming from other companies, we’ve both worked at corporate companies. We both worked at startups, neither of us really like both of those environments, to be honest. And so we’re like, we don’t want to ever have an HR department. We don’t wanna hire other people. We don’t, you go down all these crazy rabbit holes you have to work with because it just creates more complexity, more headaches. Neither of us likes managing people, we like doing the work. So maybe that’s where we’re a little different. Some people I know, like managing and just telling people what to do so they can just, yeah. Do other things.
I actually really like the writing, the helping figuring out, helping my brother figure out, like, why is this code not working to fix this performance issue? I love doing that type of stuff. So we form the get-go said, like, we don’t want to ever hire people. We want to purposely stay small. Like we want to just make enough money where we’re happy. We can pay our bills. We can invest a little money and we’re good. Like, we’re happy with that. We don’t want to become the next huge company or the next multi-million dollar WordPress theme shop or plug-in shop. We just like, if we have two plug-ins and maybe a few a blog and something on the side that makes some money like we’re just completely content with that.
Steven Sauder: Do you feel like there’s still space and room for that? Or is that getting crowded out with these large shops coming in?
Brian Jackson: No, I think there is. And the one advantage we have, I think is definitely our support and I know everybody says this I know I said that when we were at Kinsta I know everyone says their support is the best. Like, we have never had a day yet where we have not cleared out all of our tickets for our plug-ins and I don’t know of any other plug-in shop that can say that. I’ve worked at a lot of places and I’ve never seen, I’ve seen tickets just going for days. Like, even at Kinsta like there are plugs that– we solve everything the day you reach out to us. Like lots of times, we solve tickets within 10 minutes. And so, we’ll go out of our way to help solve issues. I help people with WP rocket every single day. Like it’s not even our plugin.
People love that people really appreciate like really good support, I think like, so if you solve their problem and, maybe, they’ll basically, you can retain them as a customer. That’s the most important thing. And over time, yeah. Just people really appreciate good support. And if you think about it yourself, like I would think everyone agrees. They like good support. I have to reach out to plug-in developers myself when we have issues. And I hate banging my head, like waiting five days to hear back from them it’s ridiculous. And then, it’s affecting our business because there’s a bug with something. So it’s, yeah, like having something solved in a day, like people realize the importance of that. And, yeah. And that’s worked really well for us. So I think I can’t stress enough how quality support is, is important, especially for smaller players.
If you want a way to stand out, that is one way that you can stand out without having to, you can’t compete against a million-dollar shop when you’re just starting out. There’s no way you can compete. So you have to find other ways to stand out. Another way we, do our stuff is, and this is a trickier one because we started our plugins over time and then quit our jobs. So, I always encourage people. If you wanna start a plugin and sell it or a theme, sell it, like just do it on the side at your job, like you don’t have to rush or anything, and then maybe start building it. And then you get to the point where like, I wanna take the leap and take the risk here.
don’t try just like quitting your job and then starting it, cuz you’re gonna run into so many problems that you don’t know of, that exists. Running a business, figuring out EDD WooCommerce problems all this stuff will come piling down on you all of a sudden. I would be panicked if it was me. To figure all that stuff out beforehand then go. But with that being said in tangent with that, we also decided not to go on the WordPress repository at all. We decided we want to only be premium. And we knew that we’re gonna get fewer eyeballs and less traffic this way. Obviously.
You get a lot of traffic on the repository, for free. The problem with that is you also have to provide free support on there as well. And if you don’t, you’re gonna look really bad because you’re gonna have all these tickets with no green check marks next to them. That people look at even me, when I go look at evaluating plugins, people look at that stuff. So we decided, let’s just say premium only, even if it takes us years longer to scale, let’s just stay premium and that’s worked really, really well for us cuz at least any customer we’re working with is paying us something. And so it makes it more worth our time. I’m not a fan of offering free support, but I’m happy to go the extra mile for you if you’re paying me something.
Even if you’re buying our single license for 25 bucks, which is not a lot of money, I’ll go the extra mile for you, but it’s really hard to do that and pay the bills when you’re offering free support. It just does not work. And I value developers’ time and I think developers should get paid for their time. So I’m not a fan of the go on the repository, try to upgrade people to the pro version, and then still try to do the free support. It’s just a mess my opinion. Yeah.
Jonathan Denwood: I’ve got kind of a link question before I go to the main question, you’ve got 3 plugins, 3 main plugins. Has that caused some problems around which one you really, how do you focus your time on? And which one you choose to develop further, has that been a learning curve as well? And would you have done it differently?
Brian Jackson: That’s definitely been a learning curve and definitely going back in time we would’ve done it completely differently. So first off, we have 3 plugins coupons like the affiliate marketing plugin, the Perfmatters performance plugin, and the Nova share. This is just a social sharing plugin. The Nova share plugin we actually created and launched after we quit. So that’s something we decided to do, like after we quit our jobs and we started building the other stuff, what we saw was the coupon affiliate niche is not very big, and there are not enough people in that niche to actually live on. There might be if you’re the only one, but there’s still competition in that space too. So you’re always competing against other people. So like you only always have a small piece of the pie.
And so that space is not very big. Let’s just say that. And so going back, we would have, I don’t know if I would say we wouldn’t have launched that plugin or we probably wouldn’t have to be honest. And that’s why we launched our NovaSure plugin because we were saying like, we’ve done two plugins. We know how to do this. What, something that’s like, we just hate on our own sites and I don’t wanna say hate, that’s a strong word, but, we’ve struggled with, and one thing at the time with social media plugins. Working at Kinsta, I just saw so many social plugins, like bogging down sites, which is not what a social plugin should do. Like just these little buttons slowing a whole site down, it’s just like crazy. So I had tried like all of the social media plugins and some do some things really well, some do other things well, and that’s kind of what we found with a lot of plugs. That’s why we’ve launched our plugins is we wanted to do it the right way from the get-go.
So we built Nova share just with performance in mind, always with the goal to stay simple and fast. That was the goal of that plugin. And we found a really good niche there for people that were struggling with the exact same thing. Like why is social plugin slowing my site down? So, people migrating from other plugins to us now that are literally just all they care about is Google core web vitals. And all they need to do is share and they might want like social share accounts or Pinterest pin buttons, a few little simple social features, but that’s really worked well for us.
As you said, going back, coupons, ballpark it’s like one 10th of our business. It’s nothing as far as our revenue goes. And I would say it actually has more support than our Nova share plugin. So, when you look back at the plugins, you’ve launched and themes or whatever, like I’m sure there’s always, this one did not work out well so I’m sure someone has that, but.
Jonathan Denwood: with that, you have a choice either you kind of put it on the back burner or you increase the price substantially and add more specialized functionality that would appeal to a very specialized, but they should be making reasonable good money. Shouldn’t they? And you become a premier solution at a premier price.
Brian Jackson: Yep. No. Yeah, I agree. And we have, I don’t mind saying this publicly, cuz we were actually even maybe gonna put a message on the site of that. Like we have scaled back support on coupons. It’s just that plugin too doesn’t need all these new features either. It’s kind of, it’s like a, we’ve got it to a point where it, people that want it, it works great for, and obviously, we fix bugs and all that stuff, but whereas performance is constantly evolving. So that’s when we’re like, we’re just constantly launching new features, revamping things, same with the social plugin, to be honest, cuz Facebook’s constantly changing their API and oh my God, that’s social stuff has a nightmare in its own
Jonathan Denwood: Tell me about it.
Brian Jackson: I would say yeah, devoting your time to what is making the money I think is what you really have to do. And that’s kind of what we have figured out. But I would say if you’re starting out do more research than we did. Our coupons plugin, we launched because people asked for it, we had no plans in selling it or making money from it. So we kind of just evolved into where we are. but if you’re starting fresh, do the research, like make sure there’s a big enough pool of people out there assuming that you’re only gonna get a small piece of that big pool. So if there’s not like I wouldn’t spend your time on it.
Jonathan Denwood: Well, I think it’s back over to you Steven. I think we need to wrap up the podcast part of the show and Brian is gonna stay on for some bonus content.
Steven Sauder: Awesome. Yeah. That’s all we have time for, today, for the main part of the show, but we’re gonna be moving into some bonus content. You can find the bonus content on the YouTube channel, or the Facebook page. And please consider signing up for the weekly WP-Tonic newsletter. You can find all the episodes, show notes, and deals, inside of that newsletter. So thanks for joining us. We’ll see you next week.
Outro: Thanks for listening to the WP-Tonic podcast, the podcast that gives you a dose of WordPress medicine twice a week.
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