Spencer Forman of Wplaunchify

We Discuss How To Get Real Results From Automating Your Online Marketing With Spencer Forman


1) One-directional marketing is dead
2) A CRM is the brain and WordPress is the body of your business
3) Your business should be modular, not locked into a closed platform
4) Tags & Custom Fields are the “glue” that hold all components together
5) Ignoring Marketing Automation will not make it go away

How plugins such as WPFusionPlugin.com are making it possible to use WordPress (plus one’s favorite CRM) to take on the multitude of SaaS “platforms” that have arisen lately for marketing automation.

Business owners today MUST use MA in order to survive…it’s not enough to have a simple website and do things manually. How does a WP site owner get the best of all worlds

Spencer has given use a great small pdf guide connected to this interview which you can download here:5-Reasons-You-Need-Marketing-Automation-WPTonic-WPLaunchify.com_

This weeks show is Sponsored By Kinsta Hosting 

Every Friday at 8:30am PST we have a great and hard-hitting round-table show with a group of WordPress developers, online business owners and WordPress junkies where we discuss the latest and most interesting WordPress and online articles/stories of the week. You can also watch the show LIVE every Friday at 8:30am PST on our Facebook WP-Tonic Show page. https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/



In this show we have a great guest panelist Matt Medeiros of the Matt Report podcast.  I also have a bit of a disagreement with my friend Morten Rand-Hendriksen connected to our last story of show tech journalist Sarah Lacy of Pando. It wasn’t the main point of the article that got me a “little bit hot under the collar” it was over areas of the piece that I really objected to connected to me being highly influenced by the public views of Jordan Peterson to say that didn’t go to well with Morten would be a slight understatement.

This Episode is Sponsored By WP Fusion

WP Fusion

You can get 25% WP Fusion by using this coupon code WPTONIC

This Weeks Main Stories

1 – Gutenberg Articles of the Week

Video: A Quick Introduction to Gutenberg and the New WordPress Block Editor from LinkedIn Learning

Video: A Quick Introduction to Gutenberg and the New WordPress Block Editor from LinkedIn Learning

2 – Matt Medeiros Matt Report Latest Video: “WordPress is changing”

3 – SparkToro Raised a Very Unusual Round of Funding & We’re Open-Sourcing Our Docs

#287 WP-Tonic Show With Special Guest Rand Fishkin Former CEO of Moz

SparkToro Raised a Very Unusual Round of Funding & We’re Open-Sourcing Our Docs

4 – Tech journalist and Chairman Mom founder Sarah Lacy on the power of being polarizing


Every Friday at 8:30am PST we have a great and hard-hitting round-table show with a group of WordPress developers, online business owners and WordPress junkies where we discuss the latest and most interesting WordPress and online articles/stories of the week. You can also watch the show LIVE every Friday at 8:30am PST on our Facebook WP-Tonic Show page. https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/



Phillip helps companies convert their static websites into lead-generating marketing platforms.

In 2005, knowing little about web development, Phillip made a promise to a business owner that he wasn’t sure I could keep – to build a website.

Phillip self-studied and painstakingly created a simple one-page site for him. Two months later, the site achieved top search engine rankings and leads starting pouring in for his business.

Soon after, he called and said “you’ve not only changed my business, you’ve changed my life.”

It was the most rewarding moment of my professional career and ignited a fire in me that rages to this very day.

This weeks show is Sponsored By Kinsta Hosting 

That ugly little Microsoft Front Page website has snowballed into a thriving digital agency that has partnered with hundreds of businesses.

Phillip have since written several award winning and best-selling books on lead generation, search engine optimization and web design. Forbes named my book SEO for Growth (seoforgrowth.com) as the #1 SEO book to read for entrepreneurs. It’s been endorsed by over 50 of the world’s top marketing experts, and listed as a top marketing book by Inc., Mashable, Oracle and The Huffington Post.

Here’s A Full Transcript of Our Interview With Philip Plus Links

Jonathan: Welcome back folks to the WP-Tonic Show. It’s our Wednesday episode, our interview show and it’s episode 309. I’ve got my great co-host Kim with me. Would you like to quickly introduce yourself, Kim?

Kim: Absolutely. I’m Kim Shivler. I’m a Communications Strategist and Instructional Design Consultant and on Wednesdays, I help Jonathan with this show.

Jonathan: That’s great. And we’ve got Phil Singleton. Oh, I apologize Phil and he’s the publisher of a great book SEO for Growth: The Ultimate Guide for Marketers, Web Designers & Entrepreneurs. Would you like to introduce yourself a bit more Phil to the audience and viewers?

Phil: Sure. My name’s Phil Singleton as Jonathan was saying. I run a Web Design here in Kansas City called Kansas City Web Design. Imagine that an SEO guy who named his company after a keyword. But yeah, that’s kind of how I got into the business and what kind of still ultimately pays the bills to this day. Just a little bit of background. I kind of feel like I’m the poster boy for if he can do it, anybody can do it because I didn’t build my first website until I was 35 years old and it was a struggle doing that piece of it and I actually like telling people that I got a D in Computer Science in College. So, again, I’m like the last person you would think that would be able to have like a thriving Digital Agency. And it still to this day kind of gives me a little bit of an outsider mentality even though I think I’m pretty deep into it now.

I went to school for Finance. I got out of school and had a job in insurance that I hated. I ended up moving overseas and living in Taiwan for 10 years. An opportunity fell into my lap. It was basically a software company that opened my eyes up into Google and Affiliate Marketing and basically Digital Marketing. At that point, I figured there was no turning back. And in 2005, when I was 35 years old, I did my first one-page website where I made a promise to an Auto Detailer here in Kansas City that I wasn’t sure I could keep. And I said, “Hey man. I’m going to build you a website because you don’t have one and you’re going to start selling Auto Details for $200 a car instead of $25 a car to dealerships who were paying basically nothing.”

I ended up rolling up my sleeves and doing their website. I tried to do it in Dreamweaver and I couldn’t do it and I ended up doing it in FrontPage which is now gone. But I ended up being able to push up one ugly little one-page purple and yellow small business website for this guy and 60 days later, it started to rank and his phone started ringing and he called me up and told me I changed his business and I changed his life and boom, 35 years old, I finally know what I want to do when I grow up. I want to be a small business Marketer/Web Designer and that one barter turned into a couple more barters that’s rolled into kind of the career that I have now.

Jonathan: That’s great, Phil. What we’re going to be discussing in general folks is an emphasis on SEO around if you’re building a Membership or a Learning Management platform and you’re selling your course online. And Phil’s got a really great view on that because he’s in the process of doing that himself so I think it’s going to be an interesting conversation. But before we go deep into the subject, I just want to quickly mention our main sponsor which is Kinsta Hosting. And what can I say about Kinsta. I host the WP-Tonic website with Kinsta and I have some of my clients on Kinsta and they’re just a great hosting company with all the bells and whistles that you’re looking for as a Developer or somebody’s that got a Membership, Learning Management System or E-Commerce website using WordPress. They’ve got a great staging site, a great backup system. You get the latest versions of PHP and the UX Design, the interface design,

when you log into Kinsta, is one of the best I have encountered. And I haven’t mentioned something really important. Their support is superb and when you use their ticketing system or live messaging, you talk to somebody that is a really high caliber who can really effectively deal with any problem you’ve got there and then. And I also haven’t mentioned their starter plan starts at $30 per month and the speed of their service is fantastic. So, if that sounds interesting, go to the WP-Tonic website. There’s banners all over there for Kinsta. They are affiliate links. If you click on of those, you’ll be helping the show and Kinsta and just tell people, in general, they should look at Kinsta if they’re looking to change their hosting company. So, straight into it. So, Phil, you’re building your own Membership site so you’re in the right mindset. So, what are some of the things do you think people have got to consider when it comes to SEO when they’re building this Membership website?

Phil: Well, it’s an interesting thing to think about because I’ve done a couple Membership sites for clients and I’m actually in the process of trying to do two right now, one, where we’ve had for a long time. John Jantsch and I, who co-wrote SEO for Growth with me, we’ve been trying to build a certification program that’s basically based on courses and a quiz at the end which we actually haven’t put in fully into motion right now. So I’ve got that project that we’re putting together and then, actually, for myself, as a kind of way of, I’ve been out there doing my own Content Marketing, having a podcast, being on podcasts.

I get more and more people asking how I’ve done stuff that I’ve done, one. And two is I’ve been marketing myself as Kansas City Web Design for a long time but when you have a book that’s a global best-seller and where I’m getting out there and reaching people in other audiences and then you market yourself as Kansas City Web Design, it gets kind of tough to be able to get people to do work with you, I guess, when you’re so tied to a certain Geography. So, I’m actually coming up with a separate brand called Bare Knuckle Marketing and part of that really is to try and layout like a kind of DIY, DWI, done with you and done for you type services and part of the done with you is this course thing that we’re trying to put together. But one of the things with a course is we’re all out there trying to do the best that we can with Content Marketing, making our website a referral source for all of our best content so that we can grow it out and get more SEO equity on it. But one of the things with course plugins, for one, is most of that content, at least the way that we’ve done it, is you typically kind of gated, right? So, a lot of that, you’re not going to get a whole lot of benefit from the course itself and the course material itself inside of the program.

Jonathan: That is the key problem, isn’t it?

Phil: It is. I look in terms of a Membership plugin almost the same way I would in terms of E-Commerce. There are certain things you would do with courses in terms of maybe how you market them or even sell them on your site where there are SEO implications. And I’m going to take a step back and say about a year and a half ago or so I developed my own plugin for adding schema and structured data to your website. And I did so because at the time, there weren’t a lot of really easy to use plugins and I figured I’ve got to make one just for myself and my own clients and I did that. Schema markup, adding this additional code to your website so that Google can know what it is and add more context to it is becoming really important for voice search and getting more rich information in the search results, right?

So when you see star ratings and all these kinds of stuff. Well, another schema markup that they have in there that’s actually part of my plugin too is for books and courses so that when you have a course on your website, you would definitely have a public facing version where people would go, I guess in some cases. In my case, it’s going to be almost more like a shopping cart. My courses are going to be presented almost as kind of products on a site and then they’re also going to have additional schema markup on them so that I’ve got a chance to have better SEO markup and on page SEO for each one of my courses. And I think that could potentially be something that everybody should consider.

There’s a lot of good schema plugins out there but I think this is one of those very wide open spaces out in the Internet right now. When I see companies come to us, very few of them have even like the basics of on page SEO done and they’ve got Yoast installed. They’ve still got Home up in the page title. Just because you have Yoast installed on your website doesn’t mean the SEO is done on it and a lot of people haven’t gone to the step of optimizing even just the basic stuff on the basic plugin. So, when it gets to schema, it’s like wide open because almost nobody’s doing it. Yet, Google is getting very aggressive in showing all sorts of additional information in the search results.

Jonathan: Yeah. Before I throw it over to Kim to ask a question Phil, can you just give a quick outline what schema is? Can you just give a quick 101 of what schema is?

Phil: Sure. So, schema and structured data is basically an extra level of like under the hood code that you use to tag information on your website so that search engines, and when we say search engines, we’re talking about Google because that’s like 90 percent of the market, can go in there and know what the content is instead of having to take a guess at it. A good example of this would be having, let’s say a blog post that within the blog post might have a review from somebody. Well, Google is not going to have their crawler go in and say, “Hey. That’s a review from this guy on this date and he gave it this many stars,” and put that information in the search results. But there’s this extra little level of code you can put in if you fill in the blanks and add the code the way the standard is.

Then, you have a much better chance of that information, maybe that review, showing up right in the search results versus if you don’t have that extra layer of coding in your website. So, the easy way to think about schema is actually how you’re seeing it in the search results now. So, things like the knowledge box at the top where you get position zero, extra information about your company and branded searches is as a result of schema. Actually, inside the organic results, you’ll see star ratings, aggregate ratings, event times, things like this that are coming in there. A lot of that is the result of people putting in this extra code into their website so that it help Google take the guesswork out of what the content is.

So, for me, I look at it as, you just look at Google looking at your website as, you would be going to an alien planet and trying to figure out what the anatomy of a page is. Well, schema enables you to go in and put these little tags and says, “Here’s the head. Here’s the legs,” and it gives you kind of the anatomy of the page and enables you to kind of mark it up. It’s really a lot like, if people are familiar with Yoast. To me, it’s kind of just a more detailed version of like a Yoast plugin where you’re putting the page title, maybe the meta description. Well, this just enables you to go through the rest of the page and say, “Hey. This is a video. Hey. This is a blog post. Hey. This is a review,” and you can actually kind of tag it piece by piece and then you’re giving Google a lot more extra confidence and context to what the information on the page is. And the more you can do that, one, people think in the industry that it’s an on page SEO factor that will help your rankings go up just by having it on the site. And secondly, it gives you a much better chance of getting extra information into the search results so that’s golden for a couple of reasons.

One is, it’s real shiny and it’s got like search engine bling but having this extra like rich information in the search results increases your click-through rates by many percent points, 10, 20 plus some people say and that extra click-through rate actually help you lift yourself up through the rankings. So, coming up at bottom of the page and people see that extra information and they keep clicking because they like that one, it’s more shiny. The more they click it, the higher your click-through rates go in. A lot of folks in SEO or Google world is kind grey or denies it, the click-through rate on a search result will actually. So all these things, you know, schema has a role to play in and it is important. And all it really is, is it sounds, you know, schema, structured data, all it is, is simply putting a little bit of extra code on your website through a plugin that basically tells Google what it is so they can take the guesswork out of the type of content that you’re trying to show.

Jonathan: I think that’s great. I’m surprised at how time’s going. I’m going to let Kim take over in the second half. We’re getting close to the break actually Phil.

Phil: Sorry.

Jonathan: No, no. It’s just surprising. It’s fascinating what you’re talking about. So, let’s just continue for a couple of minutes about schema and then we’ll go for the break and then Kim can take over. So, you’ve got this plugin. Is it a bit like, you know, obviously, we don’t want to be too blatant about plugging our products but it sounds an interesting plugin. So, does it come with a nice interface and does it work with something like Yoast hand in hand?

Phil: Well, there’s good schema plugins out there and I’m going to give you the difference on some of them. The one I have is more suited I think for smaller websites where people want to get in and are familiar with the Yoast interface and you have to go in and basically manually do stuff. There’s an option to autofill some of the things once you select it. Oh, the is a blog post. If you click autofill on the Pro version of ours, it will take the information from the page and help you pre-fill. Now, some of the other great plugins that are out there and there are several. They’re some really good ones out there. They want to automate schema for you. So it’s literally like adding a plugin in the background, creating rules so that you don’t have to go too far into adding schema for every page. And if you’ve got a big website with thousands of pages, then that’s probably your only option. For an SEO tweaker or somebody like me, I have to be able to manually tweak stuff. I don’t want a plugin coming in and like applying broad rules across pages.

Jonathan: What is the name of your plugin? Is it on the directory?

Phil: Yeah. If you do WP SEO Schema, if you Google that, it will come up. But there’s other ones. There’s one called Schema that’s automated. There’s another one called Schema App that’s another good one.

Jonathan: I actually think your plugin for our audience is probably a good start and something they should really look. We’re going to make sure it’s in the show notes folks. What we’re going to do folks is we’re going to go for our break. We’ll be back in a few moments and then I’m going to let Kim take over. Be back in a few moments.

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Jonathan: We’re coming back from our break. We’ve had a fascinating discussion with Phil about schema, SEO. Kim, I’m going to throw it over to you for the second half of the show. Off you go dear.

Kim: Okay. You asked a lot of my questions already. We’ve talked about schema and SEO. Let’s move over and talk a little bit more, let’s talk a little bit more about the online course situation and you’ve built them for clients as well as now building one for yourself. Have you decided yet on what platform you’re going to use for your course or are you still in that process?

Phil: I have not. The one I’ve used in the past a couple times is MemberPress and there’s another one that I’ve bought but we haven’t installed yet for SEO for Growth called, I think it’s called, I’ll have to send that one to you separately. But there’s another one we looked at that’s got, I think it’s got two versions. It’s got one basically where you’re kind of up on their platform like a Shopify almost but there’s a WordPress integration on it where you can put it on to their website and I can’t believe it’s escaping my name right now because I’m sure you guys have heard of this one but I can’t think about it off the top of my head. And my other one right now for the new website that I’m creating for myself, I’m going to look into a little bit more closely.

Because we talked about schema before, I don’t want to rehash any of that but one thing to remember about course plugins or E-Commerce plugins or any plugin right now is that a lot of them are adding schema as part of their plugin. So if you’re not careful, you can junk up your website with schema. So you have to pay attention and use the structured data. So one of the things I’m looking at with a course plugin is my plugin has an ability to add course schema on it but there’s another one that does it cleaner and automatically in a way I like that I might use that. I actually haven’t gotten to the stage yet where I’ve actually chosen it because I think anybody that’s done course plugin work, you know, especially when you’re doing your own site or a custom site, it can get in there and you can get in the weeds pretty quickly with stuff that you want to do and with the things you want to add and features you want to add and extensions and that kind of stuff. I feel like we’ve got a little bit of experience with MemberPress but I almost kind of want to roll up my sleeves and maybe look at a couple other ones just to see if there’s something better out there because every one that you go into, there’s probably something missing where you would like the other one a little bit better. But my coursework, we’re getting the coursework material together. I haven’t quite even gotten to the point yet where we’ve installed it on the new website that I’m making but we’re getting there. A bit consideration for me is how it lays out of the site and what kind of schema they’re going to add as part of the courses.

Kim: Just so you know, I do a lot of combination MemberPress with other Learning Management plugins to combine membership and LMS. For example, I’m about to launch one that’s a combination of MemberPress and LearnDash.

Phil: Okay.

Kim: For somebody who’s not really in the on the SEO like you are, we don’t know, how do I look at a plugin since documentation is not usually there for this and see what schema they’re adding? How could I tell that?

Phil: Well, one would be to ask the Developer and see if they just ask. Another one, if they’ve got like maybe a showcase or somebody’s using it. If you Google, Google structure data test, they’ve got a really cool little nifty online thing where you can take a product page, plug it in there and see if there’s actually schema being generated but you would have to look to see or maybe that’s when you ask the Developer, “Is this coming as a result of the plugin or did somebody add it as a result of an additional schema plugin like I have?” But if you looked at a couple showcases and saw that it was happening over and over again, you could assume that it’s the plugin that’s generating the schema for. For courses, in particular, that’s one of the things I would definitely put. I’d want to make sure that it is in the plugin. I’m sure there is. And if you’re not, that you find some way to add it. Because if you do your SEO on as a popular course, the rich results that come up, I think if I remember correctly, look pretty cool. That’s some nice real estate to get.

Kim: Excellent. Thank you. Well, let’s make sure we get the link to that tool in the show notes Jonathan because I sure want to go check that out. My idea when you said looking at the showcase as another way to do it would possibly be to install the plugin and run it. You could see what was done. For example, I know I don’t have that other structured data plugin that you were talking about, schema plugin. Although after today’s show, I probably will. I’m your worst nightmare for SEO, believe me. I have a really good friend who’s a great SEO person also. She just cringes when she thinks of me.

Phil: I doubt that. I mean most people who are in it know a lot more than they think that they do. Actually, to me, as long as people have it on their mind, that’s really the big thing because most people just leave it out of their mind and they lose a lot of, I think, benefit that they could be doing if it was kind of always kind of sit back there.
Kim: So, you haven’t quite decided on the plugin yet but you did mention initially that you definitely wanted to have some quizzes, that type of thing.

Phil: On the SEO site, SEO for Growth, at the end of the course, the idea was to have like a quiz so they could get like a certification badge on it but yes.

Kim: Nice. What have you found so far? You said that you are still dealing with the content piece of the course. Is this the first extended course you’ve ever built and if so, what struck you as far as maybe where were challenges you didn’t expect in building out course content as opposed to blog post content? Because it’s different.

Phil: I think that’s the biggest hurdle that we’re having right now. I’m not so worried about finding a way to deliver the course material through a plugin because we’ll get there and we’ll figure that one out. But getting the course material has been a little bit harder and part of it I think is just because, let’s say for the SEO for Growth piece, I’m literally doing this with John Jantsch right now where we said, “Okay. We’ve got 15 chapters of the book SEO for Growth. Let’s create a course based on it. We’ll go through and create a series for each chapter where we’ve got 5 or 10 minutes of each one and pull that into a course. We divvy them up.” At the beginning of this year, nobody’s really got done their pieces yet. I started to do a little bit. I was trying to do it the easy way on something like Loom, going through a screen share, saving it on there and probably not the greatest quality for video and stuff but clean enough to get the information out. The hard part for me is really getting comfortable with talking through the course pieces and it’s been a little bit of a procrastination on that piece of it. And then, we’ve also thought about going the other direction.

There’s a local video production house here that will enable us to have the place for like 2 hours a morning or whatever and really do some really nice upper-end stuff for coursework but I think that might be overkill as well. But I do think getting the content together, even for somebody who’s a professional content creator and does this for a living, it just feels like the stakes are a little bit higher with coursework you’re going to be charging money on. So that part of it, I think, has kind of held us back in terms of making sure that we’re delivering the quality of it and getting it all together. Maybe that’s a challenge for everybody but it’s certainly been for me because this is the first one. We’ve gotten books and stuff and able to execute other projects where you’re putting content together. But for some reason, creating the video content on this has been a little bit of a challenge and lends itself more a little bit to more procrastination, I guess and that’s been the hardest thing I think about getting it off the ground. Does that sound familiar?

Kim: It does. In my experience, I’ve been a course designer for over 20 years, when I work with people, if they care about the quality, that’s when they start realizing creating a course is different than just writing a blog post, etcetera, when you really want to teach something to somebody. And so, yes. It’s the same thing I hear from most people.

Phil: Ironically there’s stuff in there. I’ve got one like I did for an hour and a half on the benefits of podcast guesting that we use for this other company to train people to come on as clients for guesting. Well, that just came out in like 90 minutes. So it’s all in there for everybody that’s got some expertises. But then again, it’s like you’re organizing, you’re procrastinating, being comfortable for yourself if you’re, I guess, maybe a little bit more of a perfection. You want it to be good and you’re saying, “Hey. This is the stuff that I want to grade you one,” type of a deal. It just feels like the stakes are a little bit higher and it’s been a great excuse to procrastinate on anyway.

Kim: I love that. I know we’re getting ready to come up to the wrap-up.

Jonathan: We’ve still got about 3 to 4 minutes actually Kim.

Kim: So, I wanted to ask one more question on that because you just mentioned the podcast guesting and that’s one of my favorite things to do is to be a guest on podcasts. You have an article you’ve written about how podcast guesting can be really good for SEO. Would you explain a little bit more about that? Because as people are launching courses, of course, if it’s good for SEO, that might help drive people to their course.

Phil: To me, I’ve been in this for 12 or 13 years, never have I had a content marketing tactic that’s delivered as much benefit as podcast guesting. I actually did it originally. I wanted to set up my own my podcast. I was a little bit too scared or lazy to do it. Came back and said, “Okay. Maybe I’ll try something else and I started doing a little research and I saw guesting. Oh, this might be a cool thing.” And I did the first one actually on a WordPress podcast, The WordPress Chick with Kim Doyal, I did early last year and I was just absolutely blown away with the benefits of getting out there. You do a guest blog post. It’s like one link out somewhere that’s but you get guests on somebody else’s website. It’s about you.

There’s a whole blog post about you. There’s backlinks you’re getting to share with an audience and that kind of stuff. There’s tons and tons of benefits. Just the SEO benefits alone are remarkable but you can work it into your review, sorry, your online reputation management strategy like I have and get tons and tons of benefits. But one of the things that I think I missed, in the beginning, was not having a clear enough call to action at the end where I had something good enough or even to promote. So a course is one of those things where I’m like, “Gezz. If somebody liked what I had to say on this show, if at the end of it, I had a course ready to go that was free or the initial one, what a great funnel to bring somebody back to say, “Oh, I really liked what Phil had to say. Let me go start consuming this piece of content.” Some of it, I’ve gotten better at. Like I say, “There’s a lot of podcast listeners on a show, like say this one.” Well, I say, “I’ve got a podcast.” So, you start picking up subscribers. That’s a great way to leverage it too. You get nice backlinks. You get traffic. You get stuff from social media in the shared amplification of it. But certainly, the biggest thing I think is having a clear call to action where the people that hear and that your message resonated with had some way to enter into your kind of sales or education funnel and I think courses are probably the very, very best thing to pair up with a guesting strategy.

For somebody that’s trying to build up their personal branding and authority and get out there, there’s nothing that beats this medium of guesting because you get out there and just by definition, you’re building upon your expertise and authority and some of your trust on stuff and you’re reaching people that, if you thought about going out and speaking in front of like a physical workshop or a meeting, a room of 50 or 100 people is a lot of people, right? Well, an established podcast might have hundreds, even thousands. So, it’s basically like a virtual speaking tour. Well, if you have that course or something to draw people back on the end, huge benefit where you’re getting that traffic, you’re getting that backlink. But you’re also being able to kind of funnel that real traffic maybe into real sales and real followers, that can turn into a way to monetize that effort later and that’s one of my big motivators. So, when you said that, I totally lit up because I was like, “This is the one piece that I’m missing.” To get people that will maybe do the free plugin on WordPress. I’ve got people that will maybe listen to the Local Business Leaders podcast. I’ve got people that might come to the site, buy the book, download an e-book, that type of thing. But I think the course is a really great way to get people that are really serious about listening and learning more about you to get started and this is a perfect way. Like I said, I’ve been doing this for 13 years. I’ve never had one single tactic give as much bang for the buck as getting on somebody else’s podcast and I’ve been on over like 70 now and it’s just totally changed my business.

Jonathan: That’s great. We’re going to close our audio part of the podcast. Phil’s agreed to stay on for another 10, 12 minutes which is bonus content folks which you’ll be able to hear and watch on the WP-Tonic website. I can’t talk today. I don’t know what’s going on. Phil, how can people get a hold of you and learn more about what you’re up to?

Phil: Check out kcwebdesigner.com. That’s kind of the little website that could. Pays the bills still to this day for the most part. SEO for Growth, that’s the book and everything that we do for ourselves and our clients basically in there. And we talked podcast guesting. Podcast Bookers is something I started with John last year, really based on the success that I’ve had on myself and that’s been a big part of my business. I just do stuff for myself and that works for me. I try and like bundle that into my own thing. But you can check that out. Podcast guesting is really cool because you can hire a service like mine. There’s other ones out there. But really, if you wanted to bootstrap, you can do it yourself. You can wrap yourself up in a nice little one sheet and pitch yourself to a lot of different audiences and it’s definitely a way somebody could go do that. But check out Podcast Bookers if you want to learn about a service like that or get some tips on how to do it and that’s really it.

Jonathan: And Kim, how can people find more about you and what you’re up to Kim?

Kim: They can find all about me at kimshivler.com.

Jonathan: That’s great. And if you want to learn more about WP-Tonic, go to the WP-Tonic website, we’ve got some very extensive posts that we’re writing this month that should be really good stuff and we’ve got some great interviews like with Phil around experts that will really give you some great insights about how you should run your online course membership site and anything to do with Online Marketing. And we do our Round Table shows on Friday which are enormous fun and we’ve got Matt from the Matt Report joining us this Friday. It should be a lively conversation. We’re going to wrap up the audio part of the show folks and we’ll see you next week. Bye.

Here’s a List of Links we Discuss During the Show


WordPress Schema Plugins (20% off coupon)

Every Friday at 8:30am PST we have a great and hard-hitting round-table show with a group of WordPress developers, online business owners and WordPress junkies where we discuss the latest and most interesting WordPress and online articles/stories of the week. You can also watch the show LIVE every Friday at 8:30am PST on our Facebook WP-Tonic Show page. https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/



#308 WP-Tonic Round Table Show July 06th 2018

In this show we have a interesting general conversation. The one story that I personally feel we had the most insightful and powerful discussion was “John Maeda: Designing Inclusive Teams and Products” and how the panel got very different views connected to the key message that they got from John’s core narrative!

Jonathan comment: I’ve got some some great news next week Friday (13th at 8:30am PST) Matt Medeiros of the Matt Report podcast will be joining us on the panel WP-Tonic round-table show!

This weeks show is Sponsored By Kinsta Hosting 

This Weeks Discussion Stories

1- WordPress 4.9.8 to Introduce “Try Gutenberg” Callout

WordPress 4.9.8 to Introduce “Try Gutenberg” Callout

2 – WCEU Panel Discusses Progressive WordPress Themes, AMP, and Gutenber

WCEU Panel Discusses Progressive WordPress Themes, AMP, and Gutenberg

3 – How Old Are Successful Tech Entrepreneurs?


4 – The Demand for Gutenberg Is Not There. Yet


5 – John Maeda: Designing Inclusive Teams and Products


6 – The Best Image Compression Tools for the Web


Every Friday at 8:30am PST we have a great and hard-hitting round-table show with a group of WordPress developers, online business owners and WordPress junkies where we discuss the latest and most interesting WordPress and online articles/stories of the week. You can also watch the show LIVE every Friday at 8:30am PST on our Facebook WP-Tonic Show page. https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/



#307 WP-Tonic Show With Special Guest David Kadavy

David Kadavy is author of the #18 Amazon best-selling book, Design for Hackers, and host of the Love Your Work podcast. Prior to writing Design for Hackers, David led design at two Silicon Valley startups, freelanced for clients such as oDesk, PBworks, and UserVoice, and launched numerous startups of his own – none of which failed hard enough to be worthy of mention in this bio.

David’s work has won international awards that only design snobs have heard of, and his free email courses have taught over 100,000 people the fundamentals of good design.


This weeks show is Sponsored By Kinsta Hosting 

Here’s A Full Video & Transcription Of Our Interview With David Kadavy

Jonathan: Welcome back folks to the WP-Tonic Show. It’s episode 307. I’ve got my co-host Kim Shivler and we’ve got a fantastic guest, David Kadavy. David, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?

David: Hello everybody. I’m just sharing this out on Twitter right now. Yeah. I’m David Kadavy. I’m a Creative Entrepreneur, which to me means that I try to creatively express myself while at the same time building businesses. So, a few things that I have going on, I’ve got a book called Design for Hackers where I reverse engineer visual design aimed mostly at Software Developers or people who don’t consider themselves designers so much. I have a podcast called Love Your Work. I’ve interviewed Seth Godin and James Altucher, Jason Fried, anybody you can imagine really, screenplay writers, chefs, rock stars on that show. And then, I’ve also been the self-publishing frenzy lately. I’ve self-published three books in the last 6 months with A Heart To Start, How to Write a Book and another book about a blockchain technology called Steemit.

Jonathan: That’s great. To say David is a man of many talents would be an understatement. And Kim, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?

Kim: Absolutely. I’m Kim Shivler. I’m a trainer in the Communications area and Instructional Design Consultant. You can find me at kimshivler.com.

Jonathan: That’s great. And I’m the founder of WP-Tonic. We specialize in the maintenance of WordPress website, support, and maintenance with an emphasis on Learning Management Systems and Membership websites. We love to help you. Before we go into the main part of this interview folks, I just want to talk about one of our great sponsors, that would be LifterLMS. LifterLMS is one of the leading WordPress plugin solutions if you’re looking to build a Learning Management System with your WordPress website. Great team, really believe in support. They are pushing the boundaries of Learning Management Systems almost every month, really building out fantastic functionality. You can get the core of the program for just $1. They offer additional functionality through add-on packs and they’re giving a special discount to the WP-Tonic listeners and viewers. If you go to their website and use WPTONIC, all one word, you get 15 percent on any of the add-ons that they have in their store. That’s not a bad offer, is it? I suggest if you’re interested in that for yourself or for one of your clients, you go other and try it out. So let’s go straight into it David. One of the books that you’ve recently built is giving advice about, you know, you’ve got like a course, let’s say you’ve got this great idea for this course based on your experience but you just can’t get it going, you just can’t get it started. What’s your insights about that basically David?

David: Yeah. This is something that I have thought about a lot which is why I wrote the book. In some ways, it’s for my 25-year-old self, in some ways, it’s for my present and future self. It’s called A Heart To Start. It’s interesting that there is a type of procrastination. We normally think of procrastination as like something that you don’t want to do. But you can also be procrastinating about something that you really want to do, something that’s so important to your existence that you feel it welling up inside of you but you just can’t actually make it happen. So that could be like a course or you’re trying to build a Membership website or you want to write a book or something like that. And this is something I struggled with a lot, especially early on as an entrepreneur. I was often getting this advice. People would say, “Oh, just get started. Just get started.” Usually, you hear this from experienced people who already have a lot of stuff under their belt. And what I usually find out when I would dig deeper was that I think there’s two different types of people in a way.

There’s some people who do have not much of a problem just starting something, deciding, oh, they have an idea, they’re just going to go with it. I’m not like that. I grew up in a place where I didn’t know people who were writing books or starting companies or building video games or things like that. I didn’t even understand it, like flesh and blood people made those things. And so, this is what I’ve been learning over the years is that, yes, the advice to just get started is good advice but it’s not that straightforward to do. It’s like how do you get started? Where do you find the internal fuel to get started? How do you get past things like perfectionism and anxiety about fear of failure and things like that?

And so, that’s what I really wanted to explore in this book, not only through my own experiences but also through the experience of lots of guests that have been on my podcast and great creators throughout time. So that is what I have been thinking about and that’s what I’m talking about in this book.

Jonathan: Oh, sounds great. Got question, Kim?

Kim: Several. One of the things that excited me about this book is, you’re actually trying or giving people, I want to say trying, but you’re actually giving people kind of a step by step way to get started because I think you’re right. People say, “Just get started,” but if you don’t know how, it’s like saying, “Just ride the bike,” if you’re sitting in front of a bike for the first time. You don’t know what to do. So the clients I work with a lot of the times are a little bit on the other side and I’d like to hear your feedback, maybe I haven’t got far enough in the book. They’ve gotten started, maybe they’ve even created it but their pushback, their resistance is actually, publish and starting to market it because there’s a big vulnerability there. What would you teach them?

David: Yeah. That’s a great question because you’re always starting. You’re starting the company or you’re starting the book but you’re also starting in between different sessions and you’re starting between shipping this piece and shipping that piece. I think that you can get into this perfection paralysis. Is that kind of like what you think is going on with your clients is that they’re trying to tweak all these little things and they want to get it just perfect before they get it out there? Is that kind of what’s going on?

Kim: I think sometimes that’s going on. I tend to think that the root cause is fear of rejection.

David: Yeah.

Kim: We can always want to perfect but why do we want to perfect? Why do we want to do it? Even if we’ve built the whole thing and I was really bad about this when I was younger. I’ve probably got 20 books sitting on a shelf that have never been published. And sadly, because at the time, I was a technology writer. They’re no longer relevant. But it’s when you actually push it out to the world that now you are vulnerable for the feedback and helping them get over that fear. Because as a creator, we are not just building, you know, it might be somebody’s bookkeeping system or IT system, when I was in IT but we’re actually putting our heart on the line a lot of times.

David: Yeah, because your creative work is so personal. It comes from a very personal place.

Kim: Yeah.

David: It comes from, for whatever reason, you feel compelled to say, write this particular book because of your past experiences and you’re putting it out there and you’re going to get criticism. You’re definitely going to find that there’s always going to be things where you’re like, “That could have been better,” as well.

Kim: Yes.

David: I think that it’s helpful to just recognize that a lot of this procrastination, it’s really just us wanting to feel good about ourselves. It’s that conflict, the classic conflict between ego and self. I’m borrowing a bit from Steven Pressfield, The War of Art, here. He says, “You’ve got two lives. You’ve got the life that you’re living and then you’ve got the unlived life inside of you and in between those two things is resistance.” And so, I think of any sort of creative endeavor as like self-actualization. You’re going to take your experiences, you’re going to take your passions, you’re going to take you and you’re going to inject it into this thing and you’re going to put it out into the world. Now, your ego doesn’t really like that because your ego wants you to feel good. It wants to protect the self. So, when you do put something out there that isn’t up to your standards or that you do get criticized or you feel like your friends are laughing at you behind your back or something like that or it can cause you to criticize other people. You can say like, “I’m not going to stoop to that level. I’m not going to do crappy work like that person does because I’m better than that.” And so, it does all these things that help us feel better about ourselves that, “Oh, well, we have high standards so we still need to learn more. We’re not going to stoop to that low level of quality.” All these things that are going on that are really just trying to protect the ego.

So how is the ego trying to protect the self really? So how do you get past that? That’s also a little bit easier said than done. It helps to recognize it but there’s little things you can do. One. I like, for example, to give myself permission to lower my standards sometimes.

Kim: Nice.

David: Give yourself permission to suck. It sounds like a really terrible thing, well, are you going to do bad work? But oftentimes you find that if you give yourself permission to do work that you think sucks, to start with anyway, at least like that’s the permission you’re giving yourself, that work ends up being better than the non-existent work that you wouldn’t have done had you not given yourself that permission and you can’t get good at something without being bad at it first. That’s just one particular way. So with your clients, getting their work out there too. Another thing that can happen is that we are always going to dream big. We have high aspirations and we imagine, like take for like a Membership site before, say like a Membership site. You might imagine all these amazing features on this Membership site and you’ve got to think through how all these different things going to go together and you can think about that forever.

But you’re never going to actually get the motivation to work out all those details if it’s not out there living. So finding a way to scale back, to be a little bit lean with it, not only saves you time and energy because you end up making decisions and building things that nobody needs but it also is a motivational tool because you get the stuff out there and you scale back, you make half a product, not a half-ass product, as Jason Fried would say and that somehow creates some energy. Once you get through that wall of shipping, everything changes. I mean, it’s uncomfortable. Every time I’m putting up a blog post out there, every time I’m putting a podcast out there, I’m like, “Ugh. Such and such thing is just not right.” I’ve learned to find it freeing. I’ve learned to go towards that fear. So, I don’t know if you have any experience, when you’re trying to get these clients to get that work out there, what do you usually say to them? Are you ever able to convince them?

Kim: Oh, sometimes. It’s interesting because I love what you just said about the membership. I’m actually about to work with another client on this and she’ll be fine but I have had clients and I love what you say because they want to focus so much on features, features, features and it’s actually not but they’re trying to build the best Membership site, which they are. But I believe the real core resistance and I’m the same, I’m a Pressfield fan, I think the real core resistance is that fear of marketing and putting it out there and possibly getting rejection. As I push with people a lot that minimum viable product. Get 10 posts out there and see if anybody’s interested in this private area. What they’re interested in, use them as your springboard for the future of what they want to see. But you could spend 10 years building and building and building and building and building just because it’s scarier to put it out there. It’s like people who write books that are never published.

David: Yes.

Kim: And it used to able to be an excuse, “Well, I couldn’t find a publisher.” But we know now and I loved your interview with Seth Godin talking about publishing. There’s no excuse not to publish anymore.

David: Right.

Kim: With Kindle and Amazon, there is no reason not to publish anymore. You don’t have to wait for someone else to validate you.

David: These are kind of two of the same thing with the publishing or the Membership site is that it’s very easy to get focused on, yeah, it’s great to have features on your Membership site. It’s great to have it being fully functional and stuff but what is a Membership site really? A Membership site really is about the people and you get a good community going, they’ll put up with it not being perfect but it needs to help them in some way.

Kim: Right.

David: And so, it’s concentrating on that, that’s what people need to focus on and which is going to be worse, working on something for a year, 2 years trying to tweak every little thing and launching it and finding out nobody cares at all or having something that’s a little lean to start with and you’re like, “Okay. Well, we’re starting where we are and we’re working on top of that and we’re Yes, Anding. We’re improvising here.”

Kim: Yes.

David: That is not only more motivating, it is less painful as well but you do have to be willing to get that kind of feedback. It really is what it is. It’s like putting it out there knowing that it’s not what you ultimately expect it to become and responding to what happens after that.

Kim: Yeah. I love that. And if anybody has not taken an improv class, David talked about Yes, And, and that’s kind of the core of improv. If you’re going to be any type creator, I recommend you take a class. You don’t have to become a professional improv person but you will learn so much from that Yes, And idea and you can tie it back into yourself. You know what I push my people for is get out there and create value. Create value and put it out there and let it go and learn as you go.

David: Yeah. I totally agree.

Kim: Whether it’s a Membership site or a course or a book even.

David: I agree about this improv thing. I took some improv classes as well.

Kim: Me too.

David: And that has been a very valuable learning experience. You know, I think primarily, one of the things that happens is you get up in front of the class and you’re supposed to do a scene with somebody and you can’t think of anything to do. And maybe you do a scene that’s really terrible and you’re a little embarrassed but you go sit down and eventually, you realize, “Oh, I didn’t burst into flames. I didn’t disintegrate into dust but I learned something.” And so, there’s something about that process, which is exactly what it feels like to put blog posts out there and have them become duds, which I’ve written plenty of blog posts that are complete duds that I thought were going to be great, that nobody cared about or where I was wrong about something entirely and somebody pointed it out. But it’s all a part of the process of being able to exercise that sort of vision muscle. I was talking to a rock star turned filmmaker and he was talking about his first film and he was saying that as a musician, he can envision an album from the top down. He knows exactly every little step it needs to go into making an album happen. And so, that vision muscle, that ability to envision an outcome and then be able to follow the steps to make that outcome happen, is something that he was able to carry over into making his first film. There’s always going to be unexpected things but there’s skills transfer in that way and that’s why I always say that if you’re somebody who wants to create things and you’re having trouble creating things, I think that it’s useful to exercise that vision muscle in whatever way you can. Whether that is, “Okay. I’m going to look up a recipe online and I’m going to make a shopping list and I’m going to plan things out and I’m going to make this recipe happen. I’m going to invite a friend over. I’m going to create this experience. I’m going to create a thing that is coming from my own volition and I’m going to envision the outcome and I’m going to follow steps to make it happen.” And some it’s not going to work out right. You’re going to burn the pasta or something like that.

Kim: Yes, you will.

David: And you’re going to take what you learned and you’re going to do it the next time. Those skills transfer to any creative endeavor. And so, I think that just getting comfortable with the process because this isn’t something that we’re taught in school. We’re taught like, “Here’s the answer. Follow these steps. You’re going to get to the answer. You’re going to get this grade. Follow these steps. You’re going to get the Degree. You’re going to get the job.” The world doesn’t work that way anymore.

Kim: No.

David: Maybe for some people. But if you want to survive in this world, you need to know how to make something that didn’t exist before and you need to know how to make it in an extremely uncertain environment where things are changing all the time and where what you’re doing is something nobody had ever done before. And so, I think that that is a mindset to continue to cultivate in whatever you can is thinking about how to create something that didn’t exist before and how to envision it and see how well your outcomes lines up with the vision that you had before you started and starting small with that.

Kim: Great stuff.

Jonathan: That’s sounds great. We’re going to go for our break folks and we’ll be back in a few moments.

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Jonathan: We’re coming back, folks. We’ve had a great discussion with David. David, this is going to be a little bit of a long-winded question, surprise, surprise. But I’ve been thinking about this for a little while. Around design, in some ways design seems to have become, especially when it comes to website design, seems to have become a real commodity. Also, design in general, the lower to medium end of the market, it seems to have become very commoditized. But on the other hand, I’ve just got a feeling, especially when it comes to UX design and also in design in general that design in some ways, I feel that it’s going to become increasingly important so I’m kind of pushed two ways about, is the market very fragmented and it’s going in different directions? Basically, can you give some advice and insight, David? I thought you were the right guy to ask this question.

David: Here’s what I think about it is I’m kind of a recovering designer. I got my Degree in Graphic Design. I was obsessed with design and I worked as a designer for a very long time and still do the design in my own company. But what do designers love to do? We love to complain about, “This font’s bad or that font’s bad or this client is like this or nobody appreciates what we do.” And people are appreciating more and more and more. People are catching on, which is great. But we need to think about what do we contribute as business people to our clients. That’s just one thing. What do we contribute? There are systems that are going out there like themes and stock photography, stock illustration, all these things that make it easy to make a design that looks good and yeah, maybe it’s not the perfect design but it serves the purpose from a business standpoint. And so, since design is becoming so important, people are starting to appreciate it more. It’s starting to become, like a requirement of doing business is to have a decent design. I think designers are an advantage that they sometimes miss which is that they understand how all this, they can create value from thin air and there’s also this way of thinking that goes into design that is also very valuable. And I think that you shouldn’t just be a designer for clients. I think that we should all be thinking about ways that we can create our own things, to be Creative Entrepreneurs, to write books or create an app or create the Membership site. So thinking like business people using our design thinking skills of like how do we create something that somebody wants and that solves some kind of a problem for them.

And so, that’s why I think that a lot of designers can easily miss as they’re worrying about design, worrying about rates crumbling or going down, things like that. I was like, “Well, look at this amazing power that you have. Look at this as an opportunity to take control of your own destiny and create something of your own and you have this amazing power to make something look beautiful and to make an impression on people.” And then, also to think like a designer in a way that you can make a product that meets the needs of somebody.

Jonathan: Yeah. Great answer. I wasn’t totally sure where you were going with your answer. I just want to clarify this.

David: Sure, sure.

Jonathan: I thought originally you were saying that mix it up a bit. You know, work with clients but also have your own projects and by working on your own projects you will then learn a lot more, be able to offer a lot more insight to those clients that you still work with and in some ways you might build up more empathy for the client that you’re working with because you’ve gone through a similar process through your own work.

David: I mean, I think that that works but I mean, I personally prefer to try to find my way out of working with clients.

Jonathan: Yes. And then you took it to the next stage where you were saying that you actually feel that you should move it mostly to your own work and not work with clients.

David: I think that’s one way of doing it. I’m just speaking for myself and a lot of designers that I’ve talked to who don’t feel, they don’t enjoy working with clients a whole lot. That’s not necessarily their calling. Some people love that. Some people love to serve their clients and that’s where I think that’s it’s useful to think of yourself more as a trusted consultant than a designer. If the design is the commodity, how can you take what you’re doing and solve your client’s problem in a more wholistic manner and that’s where I think that someone like Brennan Dunn, I don’t know if you’ve had him on the show but he really thinks about this really well about how to sell yourself, not so much as a, “Yeah. I’m just a widget maker but I’m going to help you with your entire business here. Then, you can start commanding a higher rate.” That’s not something that I personally, that’s not my core but I know that if I were somebody who really did get satisfaction out of working with clients, I would start looking in that direction.

Jonathan: I just sense that almost golden age of design is almost there. The actual technology side is increasingly, in some ways, becoming easier. And then, business outsourcing, there’s only so far you can take that. Business is always looking for the cutting edge and I think that cutting edge of individuality of market fit is increasingly going to resonate with design. What do you think about that David?

David: I think that you’re talking about sort of, are you talking about kind of hitting a niche or hitting, sort of the idea that average is over, right? So, if you want to be the best at something, at one thing, then good luck with that because you’re competing against the entire world now. You’re not just competing with whoever it is that’s in the same town. When Facebook bought Instagram for, what was it, a billion dollars for 13 employees, they weren’t looking for the second best photo sharing app. They were looking for the best photo sharing app. And so, I think that it was called like a competitive striver is what the economist Tyler Cowen calls these people. It’s somebody who, they want to be the best at something.

They always want more and those people are in big trouble in this age because there’s always somebody out there who’s better than you at this one thing. There’s always somebody out there who has more. You’re going to feel bad about yourself. But now, if you’re an enthusiast, enthusiast is what he calls it, is somebody who has a niche interest or a combination of interests, well, then, you can combinations of interest and be the only person who does that thing. Case in point for myself is that growing up I really loved drawing. I also really loved computers. I was on the Internet in the 90s. Those two things had nothing to do with each other. Eventually, I became a Web Designer and then on the side, I started a blog. Those things didn’t really have that much to do with each other. I worked in Silicon Valley and got exposed to entrepreneurship. Those things were kind of unrelated. Then, eventually, one day, I got a book deal to write my first book, Design for Hackers and my life and career totally changed from that thing.

And, you know, not that there’s not a lot of great Web Design books out there but there’s not one out there just like mine and my way of doing it really resonates with some people. Some people not so much but some other people, it really resonates with them. And I think that’s the opportunity that we have and I think that that is our big challenge and crisis is that we aren’t really armed with the skills to figure out what is it that I have, what’s my one thing that only I can do that I can turn into some kind of an entrepreneurial endeavor?

And that’s a tough, soul-searching process that is completely at odds with the way that the world used to work. It used to be you jump through the hoops, you go through this thing, you get the certification and okay, now you’re an Accountant, now you’re a Lawyer, now you’re a Doctor. But if you’re looking to create something, you’re looking to find your own voice, the one thing that only you can do and make that into some kind of a living for yourself, a sustainable living for yourself, not just financially but also just personally as well from a satisfaction standpoint loving your work, that’s not as straightforward of a process. We need to figure that out. That’s what I’m trying to figure out.

Jonathan: I just love it, David. Thank you so much for that insight. We’re going wrap up the podcast part of the show. David’s agreed to stay on for a little while. We’re going to be talking about another of his books about blockchain and about how he feels and I agree with him. It’s going to change the world in some ways. My co-host Kim just got off a flight, a business trip and her phone overheated and she had to leave the show. And also, I think she was doing it from Florida and I think she was melting in front of us as well. But she wanted to join the conversation because she’s a great fan of David. So, hopefully, she’ll be back next week folks. So, David, how can people learn more about what you’re up to and more about you in general David?

David: Oh, thank you so much, Jonathan. I’m really active on Twitter at @kadavy. I have a podcast. It is called Love Your Work. You can find that anywhere that you get your podcasts. Website is kadavy.net. That’s where you can find the podcast, the books and if any people are interested in, I’ve got lots of calls to actions. So I’ve got a free design course at designforhackers.com for anybody who’s looking to learn some basics on design. For anybody out there who’s an aspiring writer looking to increase their creative output, I have a list of tools at kadavy.net/tools.

Jonathan: Oh, that’s great. And folks, if you want to learn more about WP-Tonic, go to our website. We’ve got some great resources about if you want to build that course, great advice. We’ve got some great articles that we wrote this month about different choices of technology. We’ve just got some great resources on the WP-Tonic website. So we’re going to wrap up the show this week folks. If you really want to support the show also, go to iTunes and give us a review, good, bad or indifferent. I just love reviews and it does really help the show and it’s great feedback as well. So we’re going to wrap up the show and hopefully, next week, we’re going to have somebody doing something really fantastic with WordPress, online, Internet or just somebody in general that we feel is really interesting and would offer some great insight to you the listener and viewer. We’ll see you next week folks. Bye.


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