This week’s WP-Tonic Round-table (Jason Marlowe, Mendel Kurland, Kim Shivler and leader Jonathan Denwood), considered different types of Marketing Automation. While many people think of Email Automation, Marketing Automation covers more than email.
As Jason pointed out, it’s taking any process in your business and automating it. Mendel likens automation to a trash compactor. It condenses the time you have to manually spend on tasks so that you have time to do other things within your business.
Text options and text messaging automation were also highlighted since these are growing in popularity.
Mendel has been actively tracking his traffic and email options for his site https://hikingwithgeeks.com/. He considers how visitors interact with the site and measures the effects of his email campaigns. Big takeaway is to set a goal and measure your results. “Don’t spend money or time, indiscriminately on something you haven’t set a goal for and can’t measure.”
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In this episode and, in this corner, weighing in at an undisclosed weight, the WordPress Wrangler, the Marketing Magician, the Digital Demagogue – Jason Marlowe joint founder of the digital agency MKT House.
Haha. Does that work? If not, you can use this:
Jason Marlowe is a WordPress consultant, digital marketer, co-host of the LunchBreak Marketing podcast, and 16-year website design veteran. He’s also a husband, father, and woodworker. He’s happy to be our guest today and would love any and all feedback on Twitter at @jasonmarlowe.
Full Transcription Of Our Interview with Jason
Jonathan: Hi there folks. Welcome back to the WP-Tonic show episode 220. We’ve got a fantastic guest joining us. He’s recently been part of our panel show. He’s got some great things to say about Marketing and his experience in running a boutique agency. That is Jason Marlowe. Like to introduce yourself Jason.
Jason: Hi. Hi. Hi. Hold the applause. Please, please, please hold the applause. Hi everyone. I’m Jason Marlowe. I am a WordPress Consultant Marketing guy, Podcaster, wear a lot of hats.
Jonathan: You certainly do. Before we start, you’re probably wondering where’s my co-host. She hasn’t done a. She’s just got a terrible cold. Poor old Kim. She really wanted to be part of the show. But she’s not well. So give her your thoughts folks when you’re listening to this and hopefully, she will be better on Friday and will be joining the round table. But she caught one of those horrible colds traveling on a plane and they are the worst. So how to start the conversation? So basically, I think we’ll start because, maybe you can give a quick background on how you got involved in your agency and also WordPress? Do you mind that Jason?
Jason: Absolutely. So let’s rewind 16 or 17 years.
Jonathan: Can’t be. You don’t look old enough Jason.
Jason: I’m going to go day by day. So this might run a little long. No. About 16 or 17 years ago I was still in high school at the time, but I got really interested in websites and how to build websites and started out with HTML and CSS specifically. And then when I got to College I had an internship where I started doing front-end development for a company that built websites with Drupal. And after College, I kept the freelance thing going and I tried to keep building websites in Drupal. But one of the first things that I realized was that Drupal’s really really hard to pass over to a client. So when you pass that over to a client, there’s this massive learning curve and I was having to make tutorial video after tutorial video and it was a nightmare and I was like, “I can’t do this”. And at the time WordPress was far more in its infancy and it was seen specifically as a blogging platform. So I didn’t really think anything of it too much. And then a couple years went by and there were some massive developments in WordPress and I started getting into that and WordPress is now my exclusive Content Management System that I build with. And yeah, that’s my start with Web Design and WordPress. I started out in a completely different Content Management System and found WordPress and I have really no intent to change that in the future.
Jonathan: That’s very similar to my background. My first Content Management System that I utilized was ExpressionEngine actually. I never got into Drupal or Joomla. It was Expression. I was living in England and it had a very large, some of the biggest names in Web Design really used ExpressionEngine. So you’ve been blogging quite extensively. That’s how you got on my radar with some of your blogs and then you agreed to come on our panel show. But you’ve been talking about different pricing models, haven’t’ you? Like to talk a little bit about that?
Jason: Yeah. I’m the Marketing Director for a company, for an Insurance Agency here in Georgia. But my side hustle for 4 years now has been Market House. We’re a boutique agency. We do a good bit of business. But right now we’re in the middle of changing our hosting. And we’ve been with Bluehost and with this company called Eleven2. And we’re really just having issues with our hosting and so we made a decision to switch. We talked to a couple of other professionals in the space and we landed on WP Engine which I just absolutely love and adore. Because we switched to WP Engine, one of the first things we noticed, was a complete shift in the uptime that we had with our own site and a couple of our client sites that we moved over initially. And back in, I don’t know what it was, I don’t know, the Spring, we were starting work on a client’s website and they were with GoDaddy. And one of the first things we noticed right after they signed the contract and we began work, was just this massive amount of downtime. I mean we would log in and just have issue after issue with the site being down a lot. And so as we were starting to rebuild we’re thinking, “Okay. Well, what can we do? We’ve noticed an immediate change in the uptime that we had with WP Engine. What can we do with this client? And what can we do with potential future clients to try and use uptime as a way to sell?”. And so immediately I was like, “Well, what kind of data can we collect? What can we do?”. And so I used this free service called Uptime Robot. I think it’s uptimerobot.com. And then we also used Slack internally. And so we dropped a notification from Uptime Robot and the Slack. And so I get a notification right in Slack every time a site goes down and then when it goes back up.
And one of the things that we noticed after a month of testing was that the sites that we were testing on WP Engine, zero seconds of downtime. Not one second of downtime across the month. And the client’s site that we were hopefully trying to eventually sell this website care plan, which is this continual service that we do forever for the life of the site, their site went down, it was probably 3 and a half hours over the course of this month. I don’t care if it’s 3 minutes. That’s still an issue. It’s going to happen from time to time. But when you have 3 and a half hours where it’s these blocks of like half an hour. I think one of them was like 2 hours that it was down. We noticed an immediate opportunity to try and work this model into what we do. So now, every time we get a new customer, we on board by adding them to Uptime Robot and we start monitoring that immediately before we even have a conversation of where you’re going to host it afterwards, what’s the plan for after we build the site? So we actually worked with WP Engine over the last month or so to develop a case study on this, on how to sell add-on services and hosting using uptime. And I’m sure Jonathan we can link to that here in the show notes.
Jonathan: Yeah. Sure.
Jason: It’s super valuable and we were really excited to do that. But, yeah. The concept is to, even when you’re prospecting, maybe even before you sell, that you are monitoring that. And say you go out and you find 10 companies that you really want to redesign their site. Immediately stick them on Uptime Robot, set up that Slack integration and monitor their traffic. I’ve found that if you find a good point of contact and you email them they’re like, “Oh, wow. I didn’t realize it was down”. And you’re not necessarily selling at that point. You’re establishing yourself as somebody who knows what’s up. And when they do need you, maybe they’re going to look to you. Selling clients with uptime is definitely a valuable tool.
Jonathan: I think the only thing in your blog article about a different pricing structure is that a lot of clients think, they say, “Well when the website’s finished”. What they don’t realize it’s never finished, is it?
Jason: Right. No. Yeah. That’s another thing that we’ve been experimenting with is you have two camps, right? So you’ve got typically what’s been like a cheaper model where, I don’t know, you spend 99 bucks a month for a website from some guy and you just pay that for however long. Or you have an up front cost like a 50 percent down and you’ve got this milestone model went down, 20 percent mid-way, 30 percent on completion and then try and sell them these add-on services at the end. And I think there’s an approach that you can do for kind of that middle ground client where you can sell them like a 2 year website plan where you take the cost of what you would typically charge for the website, for all your maintenance, for your hosting, for whatever it is you do. Look at what that spend is typically across 2 years. Break it up month by month and then after 2 years, you sell them on a website redesign. So we’ve had some varied success with that. We’ve got two or three clients on board with that since we’ve been testing since this Spring. So I think it’s definitely an interesting model. I would love to know if anybody else is doing that same thing and their successes, how they’re treating that. There is some kind of weirdness with the contract and stuff like that. So it’s definitely still in like alpha testing. But I definitely think it’s a model that other Web Designers and Developers can run with. Because it’s all about, if you do want to make a go of this and you want to have a life, you to figure out some way to develop a recurring revenue stream and this is kind of our initial test into that.
Jonathan: That’s definitely something you’ve got to work on because otherwise, it’s just feast and famine, isn’t it?
Jason: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And then you go through these massive areas where it’s like 4 or 5 months where it’s famine and then you happen to sign three clients in the same week. And then you have to try and figure out, “How do I space that out for the next famine time?”. Yeah. No. Absolutely.
Jonathan: And I also think a lot of small boutique agencies, for very obvious reasons doing the work and also doing all the prospecting Marketing to your target audience becomes or impossible to do correctly. Would you agree with that if you’re also attempting to do all the work?
Jason: Right. Absolutely. Prospecting is very very difficult. I’m not a sales man. I’m the half of Market House and I prefer to work on client projects and Zack, my partner, prefers to actually handle the business, project management. And he also works on designs and the websites as well. But it’s nice to have that sales piece that he’s handling because prospecting is difficult. But I will say that I definitely think there’s some really interesting opportunities I had with the uptime model. Going out, maybe finding like 50 different websites that you’re interested in redesigning and running uptime on them and seeing if they are, 2 percent, I mean 10 percent of them that are going down enough to where you can at least open a dialog. That’s like a passive way I guess to prospect.
Jonathan: That’s so true. Well, it’s gone already quick actually. We’re up to our break folks and we’ll be coming back. And we’re going to be talking about something else that Jason’s got quite passionate about which is Micro Marketing. And he’s going to be explaining the concept and why he’s so interested in that particular idea. So we’ll be going for our break folks and we’ll be back in a few moments.
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Jonathan: We’re coming back folks. We’ve had this great discussion with Jason and I was looking forward to it. Poor old Kim. You missed a great conversation, but I’m thinking of you. Right Jason. Before the pre-show discussion, you brought up this idea of Micro Marketing. Tell us more Jason.
Jason: Thank you. So as I was explaining before the show for our listeners, I am on a one man mission or two man mission because we talked about it on our Podcast was that we’re on a mission to redefine Micro Marketing. And Micro Marketing is typically, you can kind of boil it down to kind of this concept of niche marketing. And we are really passionate about trying to go like even further than this small niche of just like this 10 people or whatever that niche is. But these concepts of, I believe Google calls them micro moments. So trying to create this all encompassing concept where with Micro Marketing, every aspect of the brand is perfectly aligned no matter where you see it. So whether you get a pair of socks. I have a pair of socks from MailChimp, the Email Marketing company. When I put them on and put my feet side by side, it completes their logo. To me, that is a micro moment. That is Micro Marketing, one of the finest moments of Micro Marketing. And then you translate it into our world with digital media and websites, Emma, myemma.com is another great example. They’re another Email Marketing company. And their 404 error page is one of the most beautiful, hilarious, brilliant pieces of technology that I’ve seen on the Internet in a really long time. I just stumbled across this page one day. And it kind of sparked this whole concept of Micro Marketing to me and how we can try and redefine it for this new world. Because how many times Jonathan do you hit a 404 error page?
Jonathan: Been lucky so far. Normally I’m very good at doing it, but lately, I haven’t for the past couple of days. Pretty regularly. Yeah. Go on.
Jason: Okay. Yeah. But for the average user, you’re not hitting that 404 page that often, right? As long as the site is well laid out and they’ve got their redirects in place, you’re essentially never, the typical user is never going to experience that page as long as they’ve done everything right. And the funny thing about Emma, is that they do everything right. I was actually looking for the 404 error page. Nothing intrusive or anything. I was just digging around to see what their site was built with because I’m always trying to satisfy that curiosity and I found their 404 error page and it’s great. I mean it’s got these funny videos, you can cycle through them by hitting the spacebar. It’s an interactive experience that happens on this microscopic level. And I think if brands really take care to look and see how they can promote their brand and align the brand and display their culture and really take all of these things that are typically done on a very high level, where they, “Oh. We’ve got this billboard campaign. We’ve got this TV ad that we have running”. All of these different things. Eventually, that’s white noise. So you’re driving down the Interstate. You see billboard Ads. “Okay. I’ve seen that ad every day for hair loss. I don’t care about that”. Or I see this ad on TV or I see this commercial on YouTube. Eventually, this space is going to be so saturated with noise that we’re going to have to rely on these micro moments where we’re connecting with customers individually, one to one to actually promote the brand and really make any kind of traction.
Jonathan: I can see where you’re coming from and I do because it’s just the volume of marketing that somebody exposed in North America. There are figures and they’re just mind numbing, wouldn’t they? The amount of marketing that somebody at a very early age in North America, how much they’re exposed to it. And they must in the end filter, mustn’t they? Because otherwise, you’ll just go bonkers, wouldn’t you?
Jason: Right. Yeah. Jonathan, have you ever seen the movie Minority Report?
Jonathan: Yes.
Jason: Okay. One of my favorite ideas to illustrate this concept is when Tom Cruise’s character is on the run and he ducks into a Mall. And he’s walking through the Mall and every ad is specifically targeted to him. He’s hearing what the Ads are. It’s talking to him specifically and as along with every other user in this space. The Ads are talking to them specifically. Not that we’re necessarily going to be living in a world of Minority Report in 10 years. But I really think that level of Micro Marketing is a reality that will soon have to be in this space because it’s so heavily saturated. I’m feeling lately kind of jaded with Social Media Marketing. That used to be what I hung my hat on for a long time. And I learned a lot within the Facebook space and Facebook Advertising and I made a lot of waves. I’m starting to realize day after day that there’s so much noise. There’s so much noise. That unless you’re laser laser targeted and you have a good budget, it’s just that, it’s just noise. So that’s where the concept of Micro Marketing comes in to kind of step in and replace that on different levels within the company.
Jonathan: Yeah. Another thing on your blog that you’ve been discussing and it’s something that occasionally I’ve spoken about is that you hear on a lot in the WordPress community and from Web Professionals especially. They say, “Well, it’s only Marketing site. It’s only a brochure”. That’s what they say. It;s a brochure site. But I actually think, I wouldn’t use that term anyway. But they say brochure. Having a site that actually gets a return on investment actually does something, actually add some stage to the selling process, makes new client decide to out reach and contact that company, do something, is extremely difficult, isn’t it?
Jason: Yeah.
Jonathan: Where do you think all has come from?
Jason: It just goes back to what I was saying. It’s that noise in this space. I think it also happens when you’re, as somebody who essential sells websites and then the digital marketing piece afterwards, it’s hard. You have to educate. So you’ve got a lot of clients who come to you and say, “I want a new website because it’s going to solve everything. All of my problems, they’re going to go away. I’m going to have customers. I want to have a pipeline. I’m going to be able to communicate. I’m going to be able to do all these amazing things with a new website”. And that is completely false. And we’re going through this exact thing right now with a customer. We built them this amazing website, but they didn’t want any Marketing. And we’re like, “Okay. So what are you going to do to drive traffic?”. They’re like, “Oh. That’s what we have the website for”. We’re like, “Okay”. And I feel like right now, they’re in this space where they feel like giving up, to be honest, with this company because the website is not doing enough. They’ve got some leads. They’ve got some sales. But in a world that’s filled with, I don’t know, what is it, a billion websites or more, one new little website that’s got good SEO but no connections to anything else on the Web, no in bound traffic coming from Marketing, it’s totally useless. And so unless you try and educate that customer early on about what’s ahead, about the fact that they’re going to have to spend for Marketing. They’re going to have to really work at growth. And that they’re in for a long game if you’re only relying on a website. We had a website, does very very little Marketing and it’s got a lot of content. It’s got probably 1,000 pages on it by now. And they’re just now, after a year, in 4 or 5 months, they’re really starting to see some actually definable growth with their traffic, with their leads. It’s a long time for organic traffic to pick and I think it would happen after most people would bail out. So it all comes down to, like I said, educating that they’re in for actual spend and they need to with Marketing in order to do anything because the space is so noisy.
There’s so many websites out there. If you think that you are new in this space, you’re not. I’m sure there’s five other people doing exactly what you’re doing. They just might not be on your radar. So unless you really have that budget, gosh, I don’t know.
Jonathan: Well, budget or the realities of the situation you’re going have to do a lot of the work yourself.
Jason: Right.
Jonathan: And what becomes helpful is having somebody produce some strategies, some pathway, that if you keep doing this particular thing, you should get this outcome.
Jason: Right. I mean it’s possible. I mean it’s like with Social Media. Unless you are consistent and dedicated, you might as well not even pick the computer to start typing because you have to constantly hit it over and over and over again. You have to constantly provide value and growth. And it’s like I said, it’s about setting expectations for what the client’s into because a shiny new website is just that. It’s just shiny and new and eventually the shiny is going to wear off and you’re going to feel real jaded unless you’re in for the long run to put in the work, put in the hours. But there is a payoff in the end. There is a payoff when you start to see the leads coming in and you’re closing sales and people are using your live chat and people are using your contact forms to get in touch with you and you see that traffic rise. So there is a payoff, but you have to set the expectations early on.
Jonathan: I actually wrote, I’m plugging a bit of my own content but it is totally.
Jason: I think that’s allowable. It’s your show, right?
Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. It is actually. I wrote a very extensive blog post, The Complete Guide to Customer Acquisition. And went into all the things I’ve learned over the past couple years about getting new customers and the process of getting them, so it’s pretty in depth. Because I do feel that there is some misinformation caught out there around Email Marketing, about Social Media. And I understand why it’s said, but that’s why I wrote this post and I did my SEO research as well Jason. So I think the time’s gone quick actually folks. And we’re going to wrap up the Podcast part of the show. We’re going to continue the discussion for about 10, 15 minutes and you’ll be able to see that on the website with the full transcript of our discussion and with the links that we’ve discussed. Plus the discussion will be on the YouTube channel. Please subscribe to that. That really helps. So Jason, how can people get a hold of you and learn more about you and your company and what you’ll be up to?
Jason: So you can check me out a couple different ways. You can find me at jasonmarlowe.com. That’s M – A – R – L – O – W – E. And the same handle on Twitter jasonmarlowe. As I mentioned before, our company’s called Market House. It’s mkt.house online. And you can check me out on my Podcast at lunchbreakmkt or lunchbreakmarketing.com.
Jonathan: Yeah. The Podcast is fantastic folks. Do go and listen to it. Jason and his partner bring up some fantastic thoughts and discussion points. How to get a hold of me folks and the show, that’s really quite easy. You can get a hold of me on Twitter @jonathandenwood. I kind of like to spend a bit of time every day retweeting stuff and then just reposting from the archive the 240 shows that I’ve done. You’ll find that. Go to the WP-Tonic Facebook page. There’s some good content on there. Or you could email me [email protected] and I do answer my email, not the same day probably, but if you’ve got a question or you want some advice, I’m there to help out. And like what Jason says on his own contact page, fax, what is that? No. You don’t use that. You use something much more witty, don’t you? Is your comment about faxing, don’t you? That brought a smile to my face. Well, folks, I think it’s been a fantastic conversation. Please go, like I say to the website and go the YouTube channel and you’ll be able to hear a bit more of this conversation after we’ve finished the audio. And just to wrap up, if you can go to iTunes and give us a review. I know if you’re on a PC, it’s a total pain in the posterior. But if you can and if you’re getting value from the show, it really does help the show. And we’re moving back up the rankings. We’re getting more and more people listening to the show. And hopefully, Kim, my co-host, will be a lot better and will be joining us next Wednesday. We’ll see you next week folks. Bye.
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We have a great Friday round-table show with two great special guests Chris Badgett, joint founder of LifterLMS & Dave Kiss founder of LunchBox. We also have some really interesting news stories which we discuss in the first half of the show. Then in the second half, we go into some detail on the main subject of the show “Creating An Online Video Course Using WordPress.”
This Weeks News Stories
1 – Five Ways I’d Like To Be Proven Wrong About Gutenberg
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In this episode of the show, we interview Kim Shivler who has agreed to be my new co-host. We discuss Kim involvement with WordPress and its community. Kim has spoken at some WordCamps and WordCamp USA. Kim is an expert on LMS (learning management systems), and we discuss this subject in the interview. In the second half of the show, we discuss my latest blog post “The Complete Guide to Customer Acquisition” and all the things I have learned over the past couple of years connected to getting new client online.
I want to give a big shout-out to my John Locke my previous co-host who helped in improving the show’s content and presentation. Unfortunately, as you probably know yourself as a freelancer or business owner, there are only so many hours in a day, and John needs to focus more on his clients and also spend more time to building-up his already very successful digital agency in Sacramento, CA. Hopefully, John will find the time to still be one of the regular panelists on the WP-Tonic’s Friday round-table shows.
Here’s A Full Transcript Of The Show
Jonathan: Hi there folks. This is the WP-Tonic show 217. This is a really special show. I’ve got a great announcement. Got a new co-host. Kim Shivler is going to be my co-host for the future episodes of the WP-Tonic interview shows. John Locke, my previous great co-host, he’s not leaving totally the WP-Tonic family. He will be part of our Friday shows. But, let’s get on with it. I’ve got Kim here. Like to introduce yourself Kim to the listeners?
Kim: I would absolutely love to. Hey everybody. I’m Kim Shivler. If you listen to the Friday show, you’ve probably heard me. I’ve been a round table guest for quite a while now. I’m a Technology and Business instructor. For the Technology piece, I teach WordPress. I teach how to build online courses and membership platforms to everyone from 70-year-old non-technical people up to those who are full out programmers but then want to add on how to get their online courses published.
Jonathan: Oh. Fantastic Kim. I’m really excited that you agreed to become my co-host for the foreseeable future. I think we’re going to have some great interviews in the WordPress community. And people from the outside know we plan to continue bringing experts to our listeners about online marketing, email, social media and about WordPress as well and combining it. Because we all know that we’ve got multiple hacks here or balls that we’re juggling. So, Kim, you’ve spoken at a few WordCamps and you’ve also spoken at WordCamp US, haven’t you?
Kim: I did. I spoke at the inaugural, the first WordCamp US and that one was on building online courses. Last year I year I spoke at WordCamp LAX and WordCamp Sacramento and I’ll be speaking at WordCamp Sacramento again this September, excited to do that. This year we’re actually going to break down the business, the real live nitty gritty business piece of a good sized membership launch. I finished one with one of my coaching clients back in June and we had some really interesting business take aways. So that’s what we’ll be covering.
Jonathan: Oh, great. It sounds fantastic. I’ll be going down there as well folks. I won’t be presenting, but I will be going down. Last year’s Sacramento WordCamp was fantastic. They did a fantastic job running it and it was really enjoyable, a great facility and ample parking and everybody had a great time. So what I think we’ll do, because you mentioned that, shall we, because you’ll be presenting there, do you mind going through some of the things that you did learn through that launch then? How does that sound Kim?
Kim: Sure. We can absolutely start with that.
Jonathan: Because you’re known as the membership queen. The queen of membership. That’s what you’re known for.
Kim: I think I’m the online course queen. Membership is a part of it, but I think the online course queen is really my super specialty.
Jonathan: Learning Management Systems as they say.
Kim: Absolutely.
Jonathan: And by the way folks, we’ll be discussing this topic on Friday and we’ve got some guests. We’ve got Chris Badgett from LifterLMS and we’ve got Dave Kiss who also produces a couple of plugins that help you manage Learning Management Systems. And they’re going to be joining us on Friday. So that should be fun, shouldn’t it Kim?
Kim: Excellent. It’s going to be fun. I’m actually not sure what my Friday looks like. Michael’s having his wisdom teeth taken out. How he made it to 53 without having his wisdom teeth taken out, I have no idea, but he did. So I’ll probably be on . . .
Jonathan: I’ve still got them.
Kim: Oh, you’ve got yours? Okay.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kim: Well, now he has to have them out. So I may be on some, but I may, it’s going to depend on how he’s doing.
Jonathan: All right. That’s great.
Kim: Yeah.
Jonathan: So let’s get on. So you did this project with a client and it was around launching a Learning Management System. What are some of the key points that you are going to be presenting at Sacramento?
Kim: Okay. Now this one, we will probably add an LMS later. This one was just the membership piece.
Jonathan: Right.
Kim: Just premium content with multiple levels of content as far as they have a basic and an advanced membership. And they already had. It was an interesting work because they already had a membership site that they just weren’t happy with and we ended up redeveloping it. We put them into MemberPress and all the technical pieces ran beautifully. Then it was that launch. The business piece of the launch that a lot of times people just, they don’t plan for because all they’re thinking is, “Okay. We’re going to do this webinar. We had a large audience already. We’ve had this site. We’ve spent our time developing our audience”. And then it dropped. And one of the things they did, for example, was they offered a free month. And what we found was with the free month, we had a lot of people bailing in the shopping cart. So they got into the shopping cart and this was where you could really tell the tire kickers from the people who really wanted something because they bailed in the shopping cart. And when that happened, we ended up with all these users just hanging out there. Now having to go out and clean them up if they don’t come back and finish out their account. So there were just little things like that, but they all add up, right? Well of a sudden you’ve got 100 user accounts to go delete because people ditched the carts. We did take their email addresses of course and reached out to them and see if we could bring them back in. But, if not, then there was that type of clean up that we found. We also found and I think this was very specific for them. Because they had had a different membership site, people were signing up and then they had the other site bookmarked and they were trying to log into that site with the new information. We were getting a lot of calls from, “Okay. My password and username aren’t working”. And we would go in. We would reset it. “Okay. We’ve reset it. It’s working”. “No. It’s not”. And it was because they were actually bookmarked to the other site.
And I had actually tried with the client to get them to take that site down before we launched. It would be my recommendation to anyone, is take that one down and really build up the new launch, even if it’s for just two weeks or three weeks. But that way, if they try to go back to that bookmark, you can forward them over to the new site and not get that type of situation.
Jonathan: Yeah. It’s the nitty gritting, isn’t it? I don’t know if you want to name the website (inaudible 08:35) if that’s your discretion. So they had a reasonable membership anyway, did they? Before they decided to, were they utilizing WordPress for the old web site? Or were they using a different platform?
Kim: They were using WordPress and what happened was when they did the original planning document and they put in what they needed they really didn’t think through some of it. I don’t want to go into names because I haven’t asked them. But some of the things in the planning document and those of you who know me know I’m really big on planning this stuff out so we pick the right plugin and the right configuration. And once they got that up and running, then they realized that they really needed to be able to do disparate membership so they don’t build on each other. So originally, they were using paid membership’s pro, which is great if you just want a quick set up and silver, gold, platinum and they all build on each other.
Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah.
Kim: But they realized that’s not what they wanted. They wanted to be able to do some individual sales. They wanted this. So that’s when we redid it and moved them to MemberPress. They also, the initial one, they had in their main marketing web site and I never recommend that. I really recommend build out a sub-domain. Because you don’t want 200, 300 users in our main big marketing forward facing site unless you’re solely a membership site. But if it’s an add on, you’re better off segregating them to a sub-domain.
Jonathan: I’m building one out myself actually folks and I listened to Kim’s advice and we’re building it out on a sub-domain Kim.
Kim: Great. It’s just easier to manage. I’m so happy I’ve gone that way with mine.
Jonathan: Yeah. It’s only logical because like they say, you can end up with a very large database with a large load and they are really two separate (inaudible 10:44) really normally, aren’t they? Unless the whole site is going to be around membership, isn’t it?
Kim: Yes. Exactly. But if you’re a Content Marketer who’s very heavy on content, or not even a Content Marketer, I actually hate that word, but a really powerful Content Creator and your site needs to showcase that for your free content and to set you up as an expert, then anything else with membership that’s private really should be its own site
Jonathan: Sorry about that folks. There were some other business things that you said that were interesting in this move. Can you go into those a little bit?
Kim: Well. The email connectivity. What we found was that MailChimps tagging system is really not up to what it needs to be. To add the tags in and be able to actually send links and information just to those targeted audiences. They’re actually in the process right now of porting everything to Drip. But it did make for some headaches because we’re trying to do what MailChimp said. They actually hired a big time MailChimp person. And they even said, “Yeah. It doesn’t quite work the way it needs to work for the granularity you want to do”. And so that’s when they opted to move over to Drip. I would suggest to anyone if you’re going to do this and you’re going to need that granularity of different memberships, get emails just to them, then look at something like a Drip or an ActiveCampaign or something that really can handle that level of automation for you.
Jonathan: I think they are the two leaders in that area at the present moment, Drip and ActiveCampaign. I think both are superb products. Well, I actually use two systems. At some stage, I probably have to merge them. I use Campaign Monitor for my main monthly newsletter. And for sub-categories and sale and promotion emails, I use ActiveCampaign. I would agree with you. And also both are a bit of a learning curve, aren’t they? But I think visually they’ve got imaginative interfaces, haven’t they? If you’re going to do logic based campaigns. Do you agree with that Kim?
Kim: From what I’m learning. I am brand new to both of those. I’ve been using for the last couple of years either MailChimp or GetResponse. So I’m just learning those two and I will probably be porting to one them. I’m not 100 percent show which one. But, yes. I’m seeing that they really are powerful, but there’s definitely a learning curve. This is not a 10 minute set up like a MailChimp where I can take a beginner and they can have a MailChimp list set up in a few minutes. But of course, you don’t have the big functionality.
Jonathan: Yeah. Well, with Drip they do a free, I think they’re still offering it. They do a free offering. I think it’s up to 100 users you can import into it. And I think it’s cut down a bit. I think you can learn it. I think with ActiveCampaign they offer a 14 to 30 day trial. But then their base system which is at 500 contacts is around $9, so it won’t exactly bust the bank, will it?
Kim: Right?
Jonathan: I think you’ve got the opportunity to try both systems and that $9 is month to month and you can reduce it if you get a yearly contract. But they’re both great (inaudible 15:04). Because obviously, that’s pretty important, isn’t it? Their email. What kind of size list, do you mind giving it? What it in the thousands, the list?
Kim: Yes. Yes. And so that’s what they’re going to have to now convert. They have been with MailChimp for several years and it was definitely in the thousands. Now, not all of those people signed up for the membership. But the overall list is a good sized list. So getting that moved and getting, they’ve hired someone to help them do it, a Drip specialist, which is smart. Because currently, they’ve got probably eight different MailChimp lists because MailChimp didn’t do that type of tagging. So now they’ve got to get them into drip and tagged properly so that they can make it all work.
Jonathan: Well. That’s sounds great. Another question Kim. I know we’ve probably touched it before, but I think it’ll probably have some real interest to the listeners. You’ve tried the waters as they say and you’ve got a growing membership site. Is there ever the position where you should then consider upgrading, if that’s the right word, to a Learning Management System? Can you give us some insights of when that might be a decision that somebody should make?
Kim: Absolutely. So upgrading, I don’t even actually consider an upgrade. I considered an additional implementation. If at the point where you want people to be able to go through step by step courses, step by step, they check it off, they can see the progress they’ve made, perhaps you have quizzes and assignments, that’s when you need the Learning Management System piece. If it’s a case where every month I just give you four new pieces of super premium content, but it’s not actually sequential and there’s not a progress through it, then keeping the membership site or the membership piece, it’s very appropriate for you. Because really the Learning Management Systems are built to offer a course, a step by step progress of a learning system.
Jonathan: Right. Well, I think what we’ll do folks is that we’ll go for our break now. And when we come back we discuss some more of this in a little bit of detail. And we might also discuss a very large post that I put on the WP-Tonic site recently. So we might discuss that. We will be discussing those two things when we come back. So we’re going for our break folk and we’ll see you in a second.
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Jonathan: We’re coming back folks. We’ve had a great discussion with my new co-host who’s a little bit under the weather today, has been traveling, been to Denver, haven’t you?
Kim: Yes.
Jonathan: And you came back. When you’re on those airplanes traveling, you’re always fearing you’re going to get a little bit of a bug, aren’t you? I dose myself up with my Vitamin C tablets and every other potion I can grab.
Kim: I do. I do. And usually, it works. But this time just a little bit got my voice. I feel okay, but a little bit got my voice so I may be a little hoarse today.
Jonathan: You’re not doing too bad.
Kim: Good.
Jonathan: So let’s go back to the Learning Management Systems. Because I think the biggest thing that people probably will struggle with this decision, this upgrade as I suppose is that you’re going to need a lot more materials, aren’t you? And you’re going to need a lot more thought about the process because it’s going to a more formatic course structure. Would I be correct in saying that?
Kim: Absolutely. It’s a 100 percent correct. If you really want to build an online course, you need to understand how to build a curriculum. And that’s a curriculum. Think about all your time in school or college, wherever, that we come in, we have a syllabus, this is where we’re going to go through, this what we’re going to learn, these are the objectives and that we have some level of testing that we’ve met those objectives. And then, we, of course, have to once we’ve planned all that, create the content that matches that to deliver it to the students and it tends to need more than just having a private area where you get a private video or a private download each week or each month or whatever, the option is there. It really does need to be a thought out step by step course that they can follow.
And I’m finding now, in particular, to sell this at a premium price, you need to be more involved. For years there was the Internet Marketer hype. Just throw up this series of videos. It’s a course and just charge $1,000 for it. And in my experience right now, that’s not what’s working. They want access to you. The most successful courses I’m seeing and this is just both on the Internet, but also from a scientific learner management courseware development is what they call blended learning.
So that’s where you have a series of automated lessons etcetera. And then you have live classes, either live with the instructor or if you can, live group work where students can actually go through more of the discovery process. Because that’s where we learn, particularly as adults, where we learn the most powerfully is in the discovery process for ourselves as opposed to just somebody telling us something.
Jonathan: You just described an enormous increase in the amount of commitment and work there in a couple of sentences, haven’t you really?
Kim: Yes.
Jonathan: I’m sure that a few people’s eyes are widening because that really is a commitment, well, I suppose it really depends. Are you talking like a webinar every couple weeks? I do agree with you. There has to be some live content where you can get feedback. With systems like Zoom and other systems and Facebook live and Facebook groups, the ability of doing this, the technical barriers and the costs have reduced quite significantly, haven’t they?
Kim: Absolutely. I love Zoom. It’s my go to because I do have a larger webinar for big webinars, software. I don’t actually use the Zoom webinar like we do here, although I really like it, so I may change. But for Zoom, for one and ones, for group work, when someone goes through, for example, one of my classes that’s a live class or has the live, I actually have office hours every week.
Jonathan: All right.
Kim: Here’s a time. I’m in Zoom. You’ve got a question. Pop in and ask me. I just do my work until somebody pops in, asks me their question and then go back about it.
Jonathan: So I think there’s a lot of thought in that. I just want to go on to a post yesterday on the WP-Tonic website folks. And I mention it because I think, hopefully, if you go to the tonic site and you go to the Blog section, it’s called The Complete Guide to Customer Acquisition. I go into everything I’ve learned over the past 18 months about trying to get new customers online. I would say there’s four pillars to this. There’s Content Marketing, Paid Advertisement, Email Marketing and Social Media. I think they’re the four pillars Online Marketing and attracting clientele to your website which hopefully you then can turn into new customers. First of all, would you agree on those four pillars Kim?
Kim: I absolutely think for Online Marketing, there are four pillars. There’s one fifth one that I really tell my coaching clients not to forget and that is live interaction with people.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Kim: We don’t have to just curl up in a ball and do everything online. Get out in the real world, meet people. Whether it’s WordCamps or meet ups or your local Chamber of Commerce.
Jonathan: Yes. I totally agree with you and I probably will extend that actually. When it comes to Content Marketing, I think the main thing I’ve learned folks is writing really good content and putting in one your website and thinking that is going to attract traffic, it’s not. You can a really fantastic 2,000 word article and spend a lot of time of graphic, layout, anything that you want to do with it and you’ll probably be listening to the leaves whistling through the forest. Because there’s probably not a lot of traffic going to come to it. Obviously, you’ve got to write good content. And what is good content? It’s got to be useful to its target audience. They must find value from it. Or you can talk about a subject or a situation and put your (inaudible 26:19). But I think that kind of getting traffic, you can get a lot of traffic, but it dies down after a while considerably, where education or solving a problem piece can live on for quite a while on the Internet, can’t it Kim?
Kim: Yes. Absolutely. And a lot of that too depends, just to throw out there Jonathan because it always comes back to this, on what is the size of your audience currently?
Jonathan: Yes.
Kim: If you’ve built your audience and they’re those die hard fans, you can put up a good piece content and get it shared, really have it work for you. If you’re just starting out, it’s going to take you time to build.
Jonathan: I totally agree with Kim. But to help in that process, what you’re going to have to do folks is do some SEO research. You’re going to have to look at particularly long phrases and find an article, a group of articles that you like and your research how much traffic those articles, those present articles are getting.
And if you feel that you could add more value and produce a better article and there’s a number of programs that can advise you. If the competition is too severe, they’re too established and there’s a number of factors which these programs can show you quite quickly about the main authority in all the other things. But that can give you a mark. Then you can choose a mark. They’ll give you an overall mark. And you can then very quickly see which of the possible articles that you’re going to go at again and improvement up on, are not so difficult to overcome. Basically, it comes from Brian Dean, this idea. It’s called The Skyscraper Mythology. Basically, he put this sell he built for his business. He’s a very well known SEO expert. He gets tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people to his website every month. And it was the main mythology that he used to build up his own website traffic. The main tool that I use folks to do that is KWfinder. I find that it’s reasonably inexpensive tool and it’s got a really nice interface and it’s not ridiculous money. I think we’re talking about $30 a month and you can get a considerable discount if you buy the yearly plan. Another one that I do use myself, but it is quite expensive is SEMrush.
But that is an expensive tool and I took a special offer they were running, which they occasionally do. But normally it’s about $1,000 a year to buy into that program. They do a monthly. But with these two tools, especially with KWfinder, you need to do that research before you choose a subject. Obviously, it’s got to be a subject that you think you can add value to. But you’ll find that you’ll get much better results if you do this research. What do you think about that Kim Did you think that’s what a lot of people forget, is that you need to do some research?
Kim: Absolutely. I think they forget the research. You have in this article a couple of good points, not just from Brian Dean, but also Brian Jackson on some very specific how to do it. How they did it and how you can follow that. But absolutely, you want to do the search. One of my SEO Consultants who helps me because I’m horrible with SEO, full disclosure, she has me not just check the keywords and look at all of that, but then to actually go and look at who is ranking for those and what they’ve done and really break that down too, as opposed to in a bubble of just the keywords.
Jonathan: Exactly. And I’ve given like what Kim said, Brian Jackson who occasionally still comes on the show. He’s a really busy man. He’s running two of his own businesses and he’s a full-time Director on Content Marketing for the hosting company Kinsta, so he’s a busy man. But he knows his stuff and I’ve learned a lot by reading Brian’s material on his own website and I give full links to the particular articles that have influenced me. I’m doing this to save Kim’s voice folks. It’s a bit worse that you’ve got a croaky voice, itchy. I think this article will hopefully provide some real value is Paid Advertisement. I think some people really dismiss paid advertisement. My position is that Content Marketing is well worth the investment, what is called organic SEO. But it is an investment and it will take time. And I think you’ve got to be realistic here. Mixing organic good quality research Content Marketing with paid advertising if you can afford it will the results that you’re looking for. I would say that there’s two main players in that is Google AdWords and Facebook and two sub-players as I would call them, YouTube and CPA Networks.
Obviously, Google AdWords and Facebook are well documented. YouTube and CPA Networks, not so much information about them. But on the article, I give them back links to resources that I’ve studied. With Google AdWords, I really think probably linked too, depending on which sector you’re trying to compete in, you’re probably are going to have to hire an expert to help you set that up and run it. With Facebook, it’s similar, but I think with Facebook, I think you can start off with smaller amounts of money and get some real insight about your market. And then if you want to educate yourself, you probably can get yourself up so you can effective in it or hire an expert. But the amounts of money to get some results, I don’t think are such large as Google AdWords. Because in most categories, the amount of money you’re going to need to get a result is going to be, not enormous, but not the kind of money that you would just want to throw
With Facebook, it’s similar, but I think with Facebook, I think you can start off with smaller amounts of money and get some real insight about your market. And then if you want to educate yourself, you probably can get yourself up so you can effective in it or hire an expert. But the amounts of money to get some results, I don’t think are such large as Google AdWords. Because in most categories, the amount of money you’re going to need to get a result is going to be, not enormous, but not the kind of money that you would just want to throw away, if you understand what I mean. So I look into those. Would you agree with that Kim? Do you think that if you can afford it, that paid advertisement should be part of your Marketing budget?
Kim: I think it should and then I think you should start small. Because there is a learning curve as to what works. So unless you just have money to throw away, which most of us don’t, then I would start in a small campaign and test and test and see what works. Because if you just automatically start paying $1,000, $3,000 a month or something, you’re going to have wasted a lot of money before you find which words are actually giving you the most traffic. And also, you’ve got to remember, it’s a double test there when you do this, it’s not just about getting the traffic, you’ve got to have a strong conversion once they get there. And that’s a big testing piece too. “Oh, wow. I’ve got all these people coming. Not a single person converted. Now I need to go look at my conversion page”.
Jonathan: Oh, that’s so, landing pages is another term people use for that and it’s so true. Like I say, personally myself with Google AdWords, when I have advertised, I’ve hired a specialist in that area that was recommended to me. There are a lot of companies that do advertise online, national companies. But my experience, that the minimum they would take you on is like $3,000 a month and they would want a minimum commitment of 6 months. Where if you can find a recommended consultant, you can find somebody who’s got the experience that would be prepared to help you on a lower budget. But with Facebook, you can test it with quite small micro amounts and get some really nice results. Just depends on your target audience. But you’ll probably be looking at something between $300 and $500 dollars a month. A couple of the Facebook results that have been part of my learning process over the 18 months has been John Luma. This is where I’m Facebook training. He’s been actually on our Podcast, a really terrific guy. (Inaudible 37:09). They’ve recently been taken over. But they provide an enormous amount of free educational content around all the different (inaudible 37:26), the Facebook Advertising interface about retargeting, about the different types of advert stalls that you can place on Facebook. They provide it and it’s
Where if you can find a recommended consultant, you can find somebody who’s got the experience that would be prepared to help you on a lower budget. But with Facebook, you can test it with quite small micro amounts and get some really nice results. Just depends on your target audience. But you’ll probably be looking at something between $300 and $500 dollars a month. A couple of the Facebook results that have been part of my learning process over the 18 months has been John Luma. This is where I’m Facebook training. He’s been actually on our Podcast, a really terrific guy. (Inaudible 37:09). They’ve recently been taken over. But they provide an enormous amount of free educational content around all the different (inaudible 37:26), the Facebook Advertising interface about retargeting, about the different types of advert stalls that you can place on Facebook. They provide it and it’s high quality information that’s reasonably up to date where there’s a lot of basically poor quality information that you find when you do your searches. So I most definitely suggest it and it’s readable as well. So I would definitely suggest that if you want to learn is go to their website and download it. They’ve got a load of PDFs that you can download and just a real study feast and that’ll get you up to speed quite rapidly.
And then another resource is Rick Moody. He does a really well known Podcast which I suggest you listen to because you’re going to get a lot of value from that. And also he’s got a lot of resources on his website. So I’ve given you some resources there which you’ll find on the article all these links in the article. When it comes to YouTube, this is more a branding exercise more than anything. But you can still utilize it also to take people to a specific landing page if it’s about conversion. The beauty of YouTube is price wise compared to Facebook and Google AdWords. Obviously, Google owns YouTube, but it is like two separate worlds really. When it comes to YouTube, the actual price is drastically lower than the previous two that I’ve mentioned. The actual cost per click or cost per conversion is drastically lower. But obviously, you need quality video. You need to be consistent. You need to have professional thumbnails. All the factors like a professional website. You need to organize your channel. And then a particular tool that’s really useful for tagging and for getting you up to a competitive level is TubeBuddy. It used to be very expensive, but they’ve reduced their prices considerably and you can get a yearly license. They do offer a pretty powerful free product which isn’t crippled that badly. But at a certain stage, you’ll probably want to get the pro version. And like I say, their pro version, you can get for about $40 a year, so it’s not going to bust the bank. Another resource is Robert Blake, Roberto Blake who, hopefully, he’s going to be our guest in the near future, isn’t he Kim?
You need to organize your channel. And then a particular tool that’s really useful for tagging and for getting you up to a competitive level is TubeBuddy. It used to be very expensive, but they’ve reduced their prices considerably and you can get a yearly license. They do offer a pretty powerful free product which isn’t crippled that badly. But at a certain stage, you’ll probably want to get the pro version. And like I say, their pro version, you can get for about $40 a year, so it’s not going to bust the bank. Another resource is Robert Blake, Roberto Blake who, hopefully, he’s going to be our guest in the near future, isn’t he Kim?
Kim: Yes. We’re looking forward to getting to chat live with him.
Jonathan: He runs a very successful YouTube channel. And also, he’s produced free an enormous amount of material that gives quality advice about if you’re trying to get some results from YouTube by building up your own subscription base. And just a terrific guy that’s given an enormous amount of free content and also a great Graphic Designer in his own thing. So I’ve (inaudible 41:26) on a bit. I could go on some more about this. But hopefully, I’ve just given you enough so you can see there’s a lot of information in this article. We’d love some feedback from you if you come up to the article, read it if you found some real value from it. So Kim, I thought I would rescue your voice a little bit. Are you really pumped up for the next couple of months about the guests that we’re going to get?
Kim: I am so pumped up. And we’re going to have a great time. We’ve got some super guests coming up. We’ve got people coming up to take about the Google AMP, the accelerated mobile pages. And we’ve got people coming up to talk about plugin ecosystems and it’s just going to be really fun. And along those lines Jonathan, when we say we like feedback, if there’s anybody out there guys that you’ve seen talk at a WordPress meeting or something and you just think they’d be fabulous, let us know. We’re always looking for talent.
Jonathan: Oh, definitely. Before I wrap it up folks, I just want to remark about my previous co-host John Locke, who for business reasons, he’s just mega busy as a Freelancer. Everybody wants to utilize John. And also for some family reasons, he had to cut back on the Podcasting a bit because it does take up a bit of time and there’s more commitment to this than you probably think folks. But I just want to say John that, really appreciate you coming forward and being my co-host for almost a year. We had great fun. John’s still going to be hopefully joining us on the Friday shows as a panelist and still be part of the WP-Tonic family. And also, we did do some work together as well. But I just want to say John, thank you so much and the professionalism and the quality of material that we were producing just really skyrocketed with your input and help. So Kim, how can people get hold of you and learn some more?
Kim: You can get me on Twitter @kimshivler. If you’re interested in how to build online courses, you can find me at howtobuildanonlinecourse.com. Or if you want to see some of my larger business packages, just look up kimshivler.com, you’ll find me.
Jonathan: Right. And you can get a hold of me quite easily. You can find me on Twitter @jonathandenwood. You can go to the WP-Tonic Facebook page, got all the videos and I do leave some other comments on there, that would be great. Or you can email me. I do reply to my email. If you’ve got any questions or you need any help, I’m here to help you out. And that’s at [email protected] And just one last thing, if really helps the show, we say it every week is that if you can leave a review on iTunes for us. I do periodically every week see if we’ve got any new reviews. I read them out if we do get a new review and it really does help the show. So if you could see if you could do that, that would be great. So we’re going to end the show now. I’m not going to try and be like my co-host John and do the peace out thing because it doesn’t really work. But we’ll hopefully see you on Friday. Remember we do a Friday show as well which is live at 9 a.m. You can find all the details of those shows on the WP-Tonic website. You can join us through Zoom or you can watch it on our Facebook page. And we’ll see you next week. Bye.
What don’t you join us on Facebook every Friday at 9 am PST and be part of our live show where you can a be part of the discussion? https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/
This week’s, WP-Tonic Roundtable (Lee Jackson, Sallie Goetsch, Adam Preiser, Jason Marlowe, Kim Shivler and leader Jonathan Denwood) discussed the different things people mean when they talk about Membership Websites.
We covered meanings from content restricted areas to business directories and social networking platforms. With so many different meanings of the term, we delved into the importance of discovery calls with clients when they ask for a membership website.
When the requirement is content restriction, the group covered plugins including RestrictContent Pro and MemberPress, and Lee Jackson explained how in many circumstances, restricting content may be better handled with simple coding than the complexity of a membership plugin.
WP-Tonic Membership Plugins The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
What don’t you join us on Facebook every Friday at 9 am PST and be part of our live show where you can a be part of the discussion? https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/
