We Discuss How To Get Real Results From Automating Your Online Marketing With Spencer Forman
FIVE REASONS YOU NEED MARKETING AUTOMATION FOR WORDPRESS TODAY
1) One-directional marketing is dead
2) A CRM is the brain and WordPress is the body of your business
3) Your business should be modular, not locked into a closed platform
4) Tags & Custom Fields are the “glue” that hold all components together
5) Ignoring Marketing Automation will not make it go away
THE MARKETING AUTOMATION GOLDRUSH: SaaS Platforms v. WP+CRM (+API)
How plugins such as WPFusionPlugin.com are making it possible to use WordPress (plus one’s favorite CRM) to take on the multitude of SaaS “platforms” that have arisen lately for marketing automation.
Business owners today MUST use MA in order to survive…it’s not enough to have a simple website and do things manually. How does a WP site owner get the best of all worlds
Spencer has given use a great small pdf guide connected to this interview which you can download here:5-Reasons-You-Need-Marketing-Automation-WPTonic-WPLaunchify.com_
This weeks show is Sponsored By Kinsta Hosting
Here’s A Full Transcript of Our Interview With Spencer Forman
Male Voice Announcer: Welcome to the WP-Tonic Podcast. Brought to you by WP-Tonic.com, a WordPress Maintenance and Support service for business owners. We talk to the leaders in WordPress, Business and Online Marketing communities, bringing you insights on how to grow your business and achieve success.
Jonathan: Welcome back folks to the WP-Tonic Wednesday interview show. It’s episode 310. Yes, folks, the episodes are just flying by. Folks, I’ve got a real special guest for you. He’s a real entrepreneur, he knows his stuff and that is Spencer Forman. Spencer, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Spencer: Absolutely and thank you for having me. Good morning to you and Kim. Spencer Forman. I’m at WPLaunchify.com and basically, we help entrepreneurs who use WordPress for their businesses to combine WordPress with Marketing Automation using their favorite CRM. And what’s exciting is that this is a development that has come about recently from all the other experiences helping freelancers because it’s only recently that you could connect WordPress and your favorite CRM and that’s what’s what I hope we’ll talk about today.
Jonathan: Oh yes. We’re going to delve into it. And I’ve got my great co-host, Kim. Would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Kim: Absolutely. I’m Kim Shivler and I’m a Communications Strategist and Instructional Design Consultant focusing right now on soft skills as opposed to technology where I’ve been for many years.
Jonathan: Right. Before we go into the main meat of the interview, I just want to quickly mention our main sponsor and that’s Kinsta Hosting. And what can I say about Kinsta Hosting? We host the WP-Tonic website with Kinsta. I’ve got some of my clients on Kinsta and they are just amazing. It’s an amazing speed, reliability, great customer support, they know their stuff and their UX design of their interface is just the best in the business.
Plus, you get all the bells and whistles. If you’re a Developer, you get a staging site that just really works, backups that you can retrieve just with one click and they are really superb. If you were looking for the latest version of PHP, you don’t have to wait 3 months, you can just select it in the interface and they’re just amazing. So, if you’re looking for a great hosting WordPress solution, go to Kinsta for yourself or for your clients. There’s banners on the WP-Tonic website. They are affiliate links and if you use those, you’ll be helping yourself and also the show. So, straight into it Spencer. So, let’s do it. So, in your notes that you sent me, you said that one direction Marketing is dead.
Spencer: It’s dead.
Jonathan: Dead. Dead. Finished.
Spencer: Like the horse and buggy.
Jonathan: Yes. There we go. So, would you like to expand on that comment actually Spencer?
Spencer: Right. I sent in the notes, five simple slides but the basic premise is this. There is an old graph. I don’t know what it’s called but it’s called the Adoption Cycle and it looks like a bell curve and at the bottom, there are all these early adopters then people get on board and then at some point on camera, you get to the point where you’ve reached tipping and that’s when your Mom or your Uncle of somebody knows what it is. By the time you get to the bottom, we’re done. All the things that have happened in the WordPress ecosystem as well as in online business ecosystem have kind of taken that path, in particular, one directional Email Marketing and that would be things like, I’m not picking them up because they’re doing a great job but things like on AWeber or a MailChimp where somebody gives their name, newsletter and then you send them either one or a series of emails that are just the same for just about everybody. And granted there are some choices people can make in the actual Email Automation to decide what they get.
But for the most part, the journey of that person is the same as the last person, almost like if you dumped ping pong balls into one of those pachinko ball machines. They’re going to land in a bell curve every time. Marketing Automation, on the other hand, allows you to handcraft a journey for each individual through your Marketing funnel based upon their actions. But the real trick, the thing that puts the knife in the back of one-way Email Marketing is that when you can connect your CRM now to WordPress, you have a two-way magical connection that allows you to, from either end, control the journey and respond to the person’s journey so that you waste nobody’s time or attention and everybody gets this experience that feels almost like you’re dealing with a person who knows you. It’s a little scary but it’s undeniably the only way to go now. And once people have experienced that, the traditional email, I mean, ask yourself. How often do you want to sign up for a newsletter anymore today? I mean, it’s just another email. That is what is the proverbial knife in the back of traditional one-way Email Marketing and there are more than 17 CRMs now fighting it out like Rocky Balboa for who’s going to get the market share of the 19 million 500,000 WordPress sites that currently make up that 30 percent of the Internet usage.
Jonathan: Yes. Got a question, Kim?
Kim: I do. When you talked about the CRMs, can you connect this to any CRM or is it just kind of the big players right now that you’d be able to connect the two?
Spencer: Right now, any of the CRMs that use tags and fields. But the simplicity of this and don’t get me wrong, this is going to be a feature that will de facto standard. I’m not discussing this like, “Wow. Somebody has a patent on this.” We work with Jack Arturo at WPFusion and his plugin is metaphorically doing the same kind of things. He was on your show a couple of weeks ago. Doing the same kind of things like maybe in the SaaS space Zapier is doing. Zapier has a man-in-the-middle situation, which, again, guarantees that they will hold a position. What Jack is doing is based upon his being really receptive, responsive, first mover kind of thing and being able to connect right now, more than 17, I think it’s up to 19 CRMs.
So, as long as they use tags and custom fields or in some cases, events, they can be connected and will be. What we’re finding in practice, you know, the cream floats to the top. So, this four or five that are at the top and the rest are long-tail out for very specific use. So, most of the CRM makers have actually been reaching out directly to ask Jack to connect to them or we have interacted with them and some specialized ones, for example, that we use ourselves is one called Tubular which is just really a sales CRM. Its specialty happens to be that can have recurring revenue and track the individual components.
Whereas a lot of CRMs can’t do that. But it’s not really good for doing things like an ActiveCampaign or an Infusionsoft would do which is traditional automation. So it is neat. But on the other side of the equation, I got ahead of myself, of your question, on the WordPress side of things, it connects any of more than 47 WordPress plugins right now plus WordPress through tags and fields. So, now you’ve got like Lego blocks. Any of the WordPress pieces plus your favorite parts of the CRM can all be chosen, stacked together, goodbye to the limitations of Infusionsoft’s problems and I am picking on them in particular, goodbye to some of the other things and you can take the best of this with the best of that and make your own mix without any coding required.
Jonathan: Are you talking about Confusionsoft?
Spencer: No, I would never say that. I can’t imagine why a company with such a great user base and head start would quadruple their pricing on people. Why would you do that when there’s 18 people in line behind you to compete. I can’t imagine.
Jonathan: I can never imagine that myself. There we go. So, number two, a CRM is the brain and WordPress is the body of your business.
Spencer: Indeed. So, one of the things that you can relate to and I’ve heard you speak to this and Kim speaks to this, the number one pain point of the existing WordPress ecosystem. Again, thousands upon thousands of site build outs and clients and customers, you were one of my early clients in the old days. You had to pick which plugin is going to control my whole thing because one plugin has to be the one that on-boarding the user, maybe keeps their subscription, works at the gateway and if worse comes to worse, let’s say, I’m going to name one that I like. There’s a good membership plugin called MemberPress. If you had decided to go with MemberPress, and I do like them, guess what? If you ever want to move, MemberPress does not create the actual subscription in Stripe. So if you want to move and swap to say, WooCommerce Memberships, it’s really hard because you have to extricate people, have a huge churning event, reset everybody up and hope and believe that they’re going to come back. Whereas, if you put the CRM as the brains in the sky, you can eliminate almost all of the reliance upon any one particular component in WordPress as being that like owning you element. And instead, you have literally snap in snap out capabilities. The only exception to that and we recommend this, not because it’s my favorite in the world but because it’s just a logical thing, is we kind of recommend using WooCommerce as your velcro dartboard even if you’re not using it as a shop and here’s why. Automattic owns it. It’s got millions upon millions of users. But more importantly, everything in the WordPress ecosystem seems to connect to WooCommerce.
It smooths out a lot of stuff. So if you’re going to have to have one thing that at least takes the people’s money, we recommend use WooCommerce with Stripe gateway and then at least you’re not likely to have to unplug it for any good reason or you can work around it. Other than that, membership, LMS, gamification, content protection, whatever you want to do, we just say use the particular tool for the particular function and none of the other stuff like you used to have to do it. Let the CRM manage that instead.
Jonathan: On the Wednesday show, because, obviously, I do two podcasts. I do which is a Wednesday interview show and then I do my Round Table Spencer on Fridays but we have an emphasis on Membership and Learning Management Systems. Where do you think automization can really help somebody who is an E-Learning entrepreneur to really help them sell their courses and market themselves?
Spencer: Right. Well, absolutely, I’m opinionated on this because
Jonathan: Only a small question Spencer.
Spencer: No, it’s an easy one because in this case, I have a very, you know me a long time, I have a definitive opinion or I wouldn’t be here. We’re finding two types of use cases, two types of users. There are those who are consultants and those who are end users. Those who are consultants are typically coming from the CRM side of things and they have clients who are struggling to build membership or online training sites and with the combination of a fight between the CRMs, the SaaS online all in one tools in WordPress, they’re struggling because they don’t want to put their clients into a box or make a mistake and the client’s also getting a lot of anecdotal information from upstream of their friends so they’re stuck because they feel like they made their bed with one or the other and now they don’t have to make that choice.
They can use the components for E-Learning or whatever, that are best in class to match a client. On the other side or the end users. Those end users are coming to us, again, very open minded but, “Oh, I heard this was good or that was good,” and more often than not, what we’re saying is, look, same pattern. Brains up in the satellite or the brains are up in the skull and the body or the planet is the WordPress ecosystem and after listening to what your use cases are like. I have a small product that sells itself versus a high ticket, one-time sale. Pick a CRM or recommend one for them and then say, “Here’s the stack of stuff to use.” Either way online has never been more in-demand. In fact, I think more often than not, the clients that were otherwise in a real world business are just throwing in the towel and going right to online because there’s no overhead. You can pivot quite easily and the tools have become so mature and people are expecting it that it’s a really, really great way to just sell all kinds of new ideas.
Jonathan: Yeah. Got a question, Kim?
Kim: I do. If the CRM is going to be the big brain, which I like, could we not have the CRM management the payments? Because I do find that for some simpler options, WooCommerce is sometimes overkill for maintenance, etcetera for what some of my smaller clients need.
Spencer: 100 percent. In fact, I’m glad you brought it up because you can actually through webhooks and whatnot, you can actually connect directly to Stripe. Stripe’s API can work directly in this case, in most cases, if the CRM is equipped with it. Again, I say this conditionally because, for example, a lot of people are not so happy with the way the checkout forms on Infusionsoft work but there’s other ways to sell through a CRM.
Either way you do it, here’s how it works in practical terms because we didn’t really get to it. The magic of this is whatever sells the thing you’re selling, product, service, subscription, one-time, adds a tag and in most cases, will add some field data like the price, the date, what it does. Most often than not that tag is then automatically synchronized to the WordPress site via WPFusion and now gives access either changing the CSS, changing which page content is visible, changing what access somebody has because all the WordPress components in the WordPress are respecting and looking for the tag. So the tags act as an on/off light switch, the various plugins respond accordingly and then if you need clarification, the fields can be used as sort of a clarification. If somebody paid more than $180, let them see this but don’t let them see that but be sure to send them an on-screen notification that says they should probably buy the higher price product right now and so forth. The brains of that allow the CRM to say email automation, on-screen notification, text message or change the state of what’s going on on the WordPress experience.
Kim: I like that.
Spencer: It’s magic.
Kim: Yeah. It sounds like it. I use really specialized CRM. I’m going to have to look into tying it in but I’m very interested.
Spencer: On the front of WPFusion, Jack is constantly updating the icons. He added a new one yesterday. It is a specialized sales one from Great Britain. So the icons are there. More than any of the other WordPress Developers I’ve worked with over the years and I’ve helped a lot of the bigger names, Jack is extremely responsive because the plugin itself is a very simple function. It is not trying to be all things to all people. And so, as a result, he’s able to very quickly adapt new CRMs and other WordPress plugins to work with it.
Jonathan: Right. We’re going to go for our break. When we come back, we’re going to delve some more into this amazing world of email and automization and CRMs. We’ll be back in a few moments folks.
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Jonathan: We’re coming back. We’ve had a great discussion. I don’t normally do this but I’m going to do this for this episode is that I’m going to do another sponsor advert and that is for our new sponsor which is WPFusion. Basically, as Spencer has been saying, WPFusion is just freaking amazing. It enables you to communicate through tags with your popular CRM and not be and gives you the flexibility to move around and gives you the flexibility to do all the amazing things that we’re going to be discussing during this show. Also, Jack, the main Developer of WPFusion, has given us an amazing special offer which is only available through this show. If you go to WPFusion and you use the coupon code WPTONIC, all upper case, you will get 25 percent off and that is only offered through this show so I suggest you get over there and buy a version of it and start using it. Right. Back to the show Spencer. Number three, your business should be modular not locked down on a closed platform. I love this one.
Spencer: Indeed, indeed. And you’ve mentioned this on your show but this is something I’ve been barking about since 2006 coming from an experience on a closed platform system but then into WordPress. Again, the nature of how this all came about, somebody had to step up to be, “Hey. I’ll onboard your users. Hey. I’ll take their money. Hey. I’ll manage the subscription.” Because there were a few settlers in the early days of going out the old West but once everybody got out there, then there was the blacksmith and the general store, let everybody do their unique thing. I know there are people who have Marketing backgrounds who can use a Kartra or a Kajabi or one of these others, Click Funnels, premade systems and make tens of millions of dollars.
Awesome. Nothing to do with this equation. What I’m saying is that if you’re coming into the WordPress ecosystem at all, just go 100 percent of the way and don’t commit yourself to an antiquated setup which would lock you into something that you would have to undo later. Look forward to what’s already here. Remember I was suggesting like that Adoption Curve because in a very short order, mark my words, maybe we’ll look back at it in a couple of years, all components of the WordPress ecosystem will have probably natively this USB-like connectivity to each other so that they can just trigger each other, work with each other.
There’s just no possible logic to the idea that they’re all going to try to get market share. Those days are gone. But as far as sharing tags and fields, now you can have a system, one brain that, by the way, you can swap and any component you want, build it modular with the stack of stuff that works for you and again, at WPLaunchify, what we often help is, again, cutting-edge, we help people understand why they need to switch from one-way to automation. We create all of the things like remodeling their kitchen and then we usually give most people like the cooking lessons with their new kitchen so they can make amazing meals for their friends and business associates and family. So the whole process is smooth but it’s very inexpensive to get started relative to the immediate ROI which is measurable.
Like I say, SEO, no offense to SEO but SEO is spray and pray. You have no idea really what’s happening. In ROI, you pour 100 ping pong balls into the top of your sales funnel and more come out with a dollar sign on them now with a Marketing Automation and you can see each exact journey, you know 100 percent where your ROI is and you know what your user experience is like and that’s all that anybody could ever hope for in a business, especially online.
Jonathan: So with WPLaunchify, are you offering, obviously, the consulting element but you’re also depending on the level of consultancy that clients buying in with you that you will setup some of these landing pages for these funnels for them and advise them on what would be the best CRM to utilize in their particular case. Are we talking about that Spencer?
Spencer: That’s a great question.
Jonathan: I do have the occasional one Spencer.
Spencer: You’ve had the occasion to know me. I used to teach freelance Web Designers how to make a living online and I’ve also taught WordPress providers, people who do services, how to better match their products to the market needs and demands. Right now, WPLaunchify is actually, ironically very, very limited in scope. We help people from the top of their funnel to the bottom of their funnel. We don’t want to do copy-writing or content creation for them. We want them to do it themselves. So what we do is really three simple things. Most people always start with a free phone call and then that leads to maybe a consultation call to finalize what we would recommend for their stack. Most people are ordering off the same exact menu because, believe it or not, after 20,000 plus types of setups, everybody is using the same stuff. I mean, it’s just that simple. I have a white iPhone. There’s probably a trillion white iPhones.
It’s what do I do with it but the iPhone’s still the same. And then, finally, if we do set something up for somebody, it’s the sales funnel mechanism plus the tagging recommendations plus connecting it to their choice of CRM that we recommend. But most people then take the final step which is, “Show me from the final result you put together for me backward how you made that so that I can then not be indebted to you forever.” Having said that, however, we do find that, because I have 40 years experience as an entrepreneur and online selling, especially in the training space with clients, many people continue on with us in retainer relationship because it’s just easier. They see, “If I spend X dollars with you guys and I make two or three or four times X, I go to a barber. I pay somebody to clean my house. Those are services to have an expert do the stuff for me because put a nickel in, get a dime out makes financial sense.”
But we don’t do website building anymore although we can deliver it. We don’t do design work because a robot can do that with a button. We do the Marketing Automation, particularly, CRM plus WordPress, which is right now cutting-edge. There’s nobody you can look up in the phone book and say that and, ironically, the CRMs are all on a battlefield with themselves, like who’s best, killing each other. And the WordPress ecosystem’s a little nicer because kind of everybody knows who’s got their little niche. But nobody has really woken up as of yet to, “Wow. These two worlds have now merged and look at what it can do.” And that’s going to be the sort of aha-moment that’s maybe like original one-way Email Marketing was when, “Wow. I can make a list and if I have a list, I can have news,” you know and so forth.
Jonathan: If you can’t do this, I totally understand but is there kind of a small case study that you could share with the listeners and viewers that’s in your mind recently that would really show the kind of benefit of using WPFusion and also utilizing your consultancy services that comes to mind Spencer.
Spencer: Indeed. We hear, actually, the same story. I had about four or five consulting calls over the weekend while I was going up to visit my kids at camp and these were all over the phone. And I’m not exaggerating when I say they were almost the exact same series of conversations. It’s is, “I decided to use WordPress for my blankety blank training business.” I’ll give two different examples. One person is in the Bookkeeping space that is trying to do something that another one of my clients had done on a large scale. Second person was doing online training from Canada for OSHA compliance and they had an amazing business. It was already doing mid 6 figures. Neither one of them was keen to using Marketing Automation so they had almost no specialization or personalized funnel from the top to the bottom. In both of those cases, the primary benefit that I could deliver to them was an aha-moment that if you put 100 ping pong balls in from whatever you’re spending your money and time on for Marketing, this is your audience, we convert more of those ping pong balls to buy your product in the end. So take away one is, it’s now a greater percentage of conversions almost every time, which means that whatever you’re spending on your business will get a better return. Number two is, removing as many possible things as you can. I can’t believe the Frankenstein monsters that people build when they start experimenting in WordPress. I know you know what I’m talking about.
Jonathan: I’m not going to pass any.
Spencer: I know we’ve talked about it ourselves years ago but that’s the beauty of using Legos. I have three boys. They have built some amazing things at home. And then, you go to the Mall at holiday season and there’s this 500-foot Titanic made out of Legos and you’re like, “Oh my gosh. How did they do that?” The problem is not with the blocks or the modularity. The problem is that somebody starting out needs to have a simpler block set so they can focus on the one goal, which is make more money by converting the audience you have in a greater number. And so, those two things are universal use cases. It’s just like literally aha. I didn’t realize that until I talked to you. But now you said that, I can’t believe I wasted the last 6 months. Let’s get going.
Jonathan: All right. That’s great. Got a question, Kim?
Kim: I do. With all of the new things we have to do with privacy policies for GDPR and all, are there extra things we want to keep in mind with our privacy policies if we’re going to this level of automation?
Jonathan: Oh, that’s great. We’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show. Hopefully, Spencer’s going to agree to stay on for about 10 to 15 minutes and we’ll discuss this really interesting topic some more. I’ve got an announcement about me and Kim. Kim has decided that she’s going to her own podcast which is going to be focused around the business community in Florida and she won’t have the time to help me with this show. But we’re parting still as friends and she will be coming on the Friday show just like one of my other co-hosts and Bill. Bill’s still a friend. It’s rather time consuming, podcasting and life gets in the way a bit, doesn’t it Kim?
Kim: It absolutely does and I’m doing more on-site client work which is why you see me out in my car right now. Particular for me on East Coast time. This is lunch time for me. So breaking that up is sometimes difficult when clients are calling. I need clients to be calling. I miss our Wednesday shows but I will make Fridays whenever I can.
Jonathan: Yeah. It’s just a bit more easier, the Friday show, isn’t it, because you haven’t got a week to week commitment on that. You can just come in on whatever Friday you want to, can’t you Kim?
Kim: Yes, exactly.
Jonathan: Kim, I just want to say thank you for so much for agreeing to be my co-host and being the intelligent one in our interviews as well and bailing me out on my long-winded questions which can be in seven parts, can’t they?
Kim: Sometimes. Thank you for having me as a co-host. It’s been a lot of fun.
Jonathan: It’s been a blast and hopefully, you’ll be continuing our friendship and you’ll come on the Friday show as well. That would be great Kim. So, folks, we’re going to end the podcast part. So Spencer, how can people contact you and find out more of what you’re up to Spencer?
Spencer: Really simple. The website is at WPLaunchify.com and you’ll notice when you get there, there’s only one page because it just says, “Let’s talk.” You click and you go Schedule a time for free that works you. For some people, I end up talking for a few minutes, answer their questions, fill in the blanks. For other people, they get so excited about what they learning that we end up talking for a longer time. There’s no time limit. There’s no obligation. But I found, having selling people since I was 10 years old, marketing is in my blood, that the only way to really help people is to learn from them what is going on. So I look at this as a reciprocal benefit. My time in talking to people for free pays me in numerous ways, the least of which is that I understand more closely what is wrong with people that is a pain point I can solve. I mean that’s any business’ best opportunity. So I encourage anybody, even if it’s sort of remotely related to Marketing Automation, just pop on over to WPLaunchify.com or you can use email@example.com to say you heard me on the show and you have some questions about Marketing Automation or WordPress. I’ll point you in the right direction either way. I have no particular financial benefit with Jack and WPFusion for recommending them. But as I mentioned, Jack is at the leading edge of this thing so in most cases, with Marketing Automation, we do really actually use it. In fact, my relationship with him started because we found his product and we sort of said, “Holy cow. Where have you been for the last 5 years?”
Jonathan: Yeah. I was highly influenced because of Jack. He just seems a great Developer and a great straightforward WordPress business owner and he was highly recommended to me by Chris from LifterLMS.
Spencer: Indeed. Right.
Jonathan: They’ve done some work together. I am reasonable fussy about what sponsors I take on because they only cover the running cost of the podcast really Spencer. It’s kind of loose change. But I don’t want to recommend stuff and services that I don’t really believe in and I truly do believe in WPFusion. So, I’m going to wrap up the podcast part of the show. If you really want to help the show folks, there’s two things you can do. You can Twitter out that you’ve heard about WPFusion or Kinsta. That would really help. And if you’re really in a charitable supportive mindset, go to iTunes and give us a review. It really does help the show a lot and it helps me get really quality guest on the show. We’ll see you next week where we’ll have somebody doing something interesting in WordPress, Membership or Online Marketing in general. We’ll see you next week folks. Bye.
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