How To Create Original and Engaging Landing Pages + Insights into Affiliate Marketing.
My name is Matt Giovanisci. I’m self-employed and work from home. But it’s nothing special. I wake up whenever I want, put my sweatpants on one leg at a time, and tell my butler to make me an egg soufflé just like everyone else.
Ok, I don’t have a butler.
I started a website in 2006 called Swim University. The site now makes over $250,000 a year but it took 10 years.
I co-founded a personal finance brand and podcast called Listen Money Matters in 2013. I left after a year, but I re-joined in 2018.
In March 2015, I started a coffee education website called Roasty. I sold it in 2018 for $55,000.
I created Money Lab (this site) in 2016 so I can build more brands, make more money, and write off my home-brewing hobby. Speaking of which, I started a homebrewing site called Brew Cabin.
I design and code all my own sites by hand. Write the words. Film and edit the videos. Produce podcasts. Illustrate the graphics. But now I have a team that helps me with writing and editing podcasts.
Jonathon: Welcome back folks to the WP-Tonic interview show. This is episode 448, and we’ve got a great guest. Matt Giovanisci. I probably butchered his surname that he told me he’s not going to hunt me down and kill me afterward. So that’s okay, and I’ve also got my great co-host, Adrian. Adrian, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the new listeners the viewers?
Adrian: Hi everyone, my name is Adrian. I’m the CEO and founder of a company called Groundhogg. We build and sell, maintain and publish marketing automation and sales plugins for businesses that use WordPress.
Jonathon: That’s great, and we’re going to be talking about how to make really superb converting landing pages. We’re also going to be talking about affiliate marketing; how to do it the right way. Matt, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Matt Giovanisci: Yes, so my name is Matt Giovanisci. It’s said a bunch of different ways; I’m so used to it at this point.
Jonathon: I’ve found a unique way of saying it.
Matt Giovanisci: Yes, everyone has one, especially when you get calls from like telemarketers, you know they’re telemarketers because you can’t say my name. So I run a site called moneylab.co, which is a site and a podcast, hard to explain, but I basically do experiments and challenges to make money online and crazy and different ways, and that’s sort of my main business. And as it relates to WordPress, all of my websites; I have a flagship business called swimuniversity.com that I’ve had for like 12 years now. I teach people how to take care of their pools and hot tubs because I did grow up in the pool industry for most of my life and started a website business around that. I have started multiple businesses around affiliate marketing and digital products. I’m a web developer, I am a graphic designer, I’m a podcast producer, I’m a video editor and filmer kind of a Jack of all trades when it comes to a digital internet things.
Jonathon: Yes, so a man of many talents,
Matt Giovanisci: Yes, multimedia.
Jonathon: There we go.
Matt Giovanisci: Yes.
Jonathon: Well before we go into the main part of the interview folks, I want to mention one of our great sponsors and that’s Kinsta Hosting. Why use Kinsta? Kinsta is one of the most premier hosting providers in the WordPress hosting space. If you got a website or you’re working with a client and you’re building a wooCommerce website, a membership site, or a learning management system, your normal cheap hosting ain’t going to cut it. And if you’re looking for really premier hosting with fantastic support; Kinsta are the people to go to.
They host all their websites on the Google cloud platform, but what you get is a superb interface and also the best support on the market 24/7, some of the best support on the market. We’ve been hosting the WP-Tonic website for over two years. They’ve been supporting the show for almost two years, and I’m just being delighted with their support and being a partner with them. So go over to Kinsta buy one of their packages and also tell them that you heard about them on the WP-Tonic shows, that really supports the show. So Matt let’s start with landing pages, why so many of them fail? Why are so many of them awful?
Matt Giovanisci: Are they are awful? They’re really hard to make, I’ll tell you that. I think you can, especially if you don’t know what you’re doing with design and coding and sales copy, I mean, there’s so many different pieces of a landing page and what makes a good landing page. And if you tell somebody what makes a good landing page, they might say something completely different from someone else. I think the reason why they’re bad is because they’re hard, and it’s really hard to find information on how to do a good one, and that goes for like everything on the internet. For example, when I started my business, I would research and learn about SEO, and the more I would take certain tactics and apply it to my business and then it didn’t work and I’m like, throw my hands up in the air, and like why isn’t this working?
And it wasn’t until I either sat down with myself and just asked like, what would I want as a human being in this particular, like what questions do I have if I were looking at this for the first time, or what do I think would work? And then just kind of following that strategy and then putting that strategy in place and then just kind of focusing on it and going on an information diet, throwing everything else out the window, ignoring other the marketing tactics and things that people tell you to do and just kind of trust your gut. That’s one way to do it. The other way to do it, I guess on top of the gut thing, is to just look and see what your people are doing on the landing page and ask them.
You don’t even need software, you can literally like if anybody signs up, you can just email them and say like, what made you sign up? Like what part, was it the landing page, or was it something there? Or if they try to leave, you could ask for their email address, like, hey, we just want to ask you a question. Why didn’t it work? Was it too long? Sometimes I guess the thing like, you sit there and you could make this huge landing page with all the sales copy and all these images and you’re like, this is the greatest sales page of all time. And then most people would just be like, it was too long. And you’re like, mother! You’re like, that’s the one thing I didn’t think it was going to be right.
It’s like, ah. Alright, well, so really I think you could literally hunt on the internet and be like how long should a sales page be? And some jackass out there will be like, it needs to be 1200 words, it needs to be 5,000 words, it needs to have these elements and you’ll put all of those things in place and then you won’t convert it all. You’ll throw your hands up and go like; I don’t know what’s wrong. And it’s really just about like one trusting your gut and what you feel is right. And two, asking the people who are actually visiting your site and signing up for your service, what made them do it, and then just add more of that or improve that part.
Jonathon: Yes, totally agree before I throw over to Adrian. But isn’t there one fundamental thing that a lot of people forget about though Matt, is that if you didn’t go a lot of traffic going to your website in the first place; you come up with the best landing pages in the world. It’s only a small percentage of them; it’s really dependent on the amount of traffic you got to start off with, ain’t it?
Matt Giovanisci: Yes, and it depends on the type of traffic too because not all traffic is equal. So you could sit there, and like we’re currently running Facebook, so we have a WordPress plugin called Laso at getlaso.co, and I designed this massive landing page. It’s got videos, moving images, all kinds of stuff and we have like almost zero traffic. Hopefully, this podcast will help, but we started running Facebook ads and I’m like, well, okay, what audience is going to work? What’s going to resonate? Like if I choose an audience of people who like affiliate marketing and also WordPress, are those people going to be good or are they going to be just, I mean, am I just paying for traffic, for traffic sake, or my paying for the right kind of traffic.
So for us, I think we’re just paying; right now we’re just trying to experiment with different audiences and see which one resonates with our landing page and again, like asking them what made you buy? Why did you sign up for the free trial? What is it? Oh, it was this. Okay, we should probably make that more prevalent on the sales page or maybe highlight that a little bit more with better copy or whatever. And then one of the things that I do before I even design a sales page at all is, just write a huge like word doc, like I write a letter to a friend who I think would be interested in my software or my product. And just like tell them a story that’s like, Hey, this is what, you know, I built this because of X and blah, blah, blah. Then I write it all down and I do all the editing and then I build the sales page around that copy.
Jonathon: That’s great, over to you Adrian.
Adrian: Actually, I want to follow up on something that Matt mentioned. You’re about to run, like this huge Facebook campaign, and we were talking about what makes a good landing page. Sometimes what people do, and I am certainly guilty of this, is I’ll go see what other people are doing. I’ll go see the ads, those types of ads that they’re running, and I’ll go to the landing page and I’ll just, you know, I have no shame. I will just blatantly like more or less just copy the damn thing, right? If I’m in the same niche, same vertical, I’m offering the same product just with a little bit of a different way; just change the headline, change a few images and you’ve more or less got the same thing and its works for them. It’ll work for me.
Matt Giovanisci: And you got to start–
Adrian: That’s not what happened.
Matt Giovanisci: No, but you do have to start somewhere, right. I think it’s like a good place to start and then grow. But yeah, there’s so many times that I’ve done that, where I’ve taken other people’s existing thing, and that’s the thing, do you even know if it works for them?
Adrian: No, we don’t, we really don’t.
Matt Giovanisci: You don’t even know.
Adrian: They could be spending like millions of dollars and we don’t know what their ad budget is, so we don’t know what the level of engagement is. And that’s just to say just from a personal experience because you’re running Facebook ads. I ran Facebook ads and it was a total just waste of money. I copied the campaign or emulated I should say the campaign from a company called Sendy. It’s an email marketing platform it’s self-hosted. I run a self-hosted email marketing platform.
Matt Giovanisci: Yes.
Adrian: Same audience, same kind of deal, same kind of ad copy, right, and it was just a total waste of money. So what works for other companies, even in the same niche, might not work for you. So, it’s really important that you do your experimentation.
Matt Giovanisci: Yes.
Adrian: You do your ad copy, and you go with your gut like you said. It wasn’t really my gut feeling, I was just, this might work, and this might work is not necessarily something to bank a lot of money on.
Matt Giovanisci: No, and you do learn from it, right?
Adrian: I learn a lot.
Matt Giovanisci: You might learn it doesn’t work. I think too you have to recognize that sometimes you, I mean, I definitely do this a lot, where I’ll take a sales page like Intercom and I’d be like, Oh, this is a great sales page, I love the sales page, and I’ll make a sales page very similar to it. And then you realize like, well, they’re Intercom, they’re big, they’re a huge company, they already have like brand awareness. So of course, they don’t need a really like snappy headline. They need like a really: they can be a little artsy, a little bit cooler than everybody else. Whereas like if you’re just getting started, you have to be like blatantly obvious in what you’re selling.
Like don’t try to be clever or cool, night now, even on our Laso sales page which we’re having trouble with, with Facebook ads, it says, “make more money with every link”. That’s like a cool slick headline. It’s true, that’s our, actual goal, but it probably needs to say something more like, how to make more money with every link by managing all of your links in one place with our affiliate marketing, WordPress plugin.
Matt Giovanisci: It needs to be like kind of bulletproof if, you know. And I think especially when you’re going to start, once you get up and you’re the cool kid in town, then yes, you could have a snappy clever headline if you want.
Adrian: Yes, but I think what you said, if you’re like new to the game, like if you go and decide to copy a sales page from a super huge company that’s got brand recognition cloud, what works for them, will not necessarily work for you.
Matt Giovanisci: No.
Adrian: You might want to go find a smaller player, who’s already successful, do the same thing, and try and emulate that. But then if they’re small, there’s no guarantee that’s working for them.
Matt Giovanisci: I know, there’s that too, and here’s the thing, I always find it really difficult when, I said earlier like ask for feedback, ask the people who bought your thing. That sounds great when you have people who’ve bought your thing and they’re willing to share that information with you. But if you’re just getting started and there’s nobody to ask, how do you do that? And I think with that there are plugins, there are other things you could add to the sales page to kind of just get literally any kind of information.
There’s like Hotjar, you could see what people are doing on your website, and record them. Literally, I think when you’re first setting up a landing page or a sales page for anything, you really need to set yourself up to learn, for like the first few months, and then know drive traffic to it any way you can. If you’ve got to pay for it, you don’t have to pay a lot of money. You could do a really simple campaign on Facebook or Google ads or whatever. You could share, I don’t know, it’s really hard to get traffic if you’re not using like SEO, but the more information you can get, the more you can improve on your sales page and don’t think that your sales page is a one and done type of situation.
My sales pages are ever-evolving all the time. Whenever I get a new piece of information I’m like, all right, well that’s a good idea. And if it resonates with me, then it’ll probably resonate with my audience since I am my own audience, so I’ll go in and tweak those things. I’m not really big on like AB testing things, especially when you have, because everyone wants to AB test things. I’ll tell you one thing; if you don’t have an audience, if you do not have traffic, if you don’t have like New York times level traffic, AB testing is completely pointless. Yes, it will take you years before you get a legit answer. So you kind of at the beginning just have to go with your gut and anecdotally based on user feedback. If you can get it, I would set stuff up to get that stuff early on.
Adrian: Thank you. And I think, with that, we need to go for the break.
Jonathon: Yes, I think we’re going to go for the break. When we come back, we’re going to delve into affiliate marketing. I think we’ve had a suburb discussion already and Matt has being very generous with his knowledge. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
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Jonathon: We’re coming back. We’ve had a good discussion already, but before we go into affiliate marketing, I want to talk quickly about one of our sponsors and that’s Lifter LMS. Now, what is Lifter LMS? Well, if you’re looking to build a course or courses and you’re looking for one of the best WordPress based learning management system, lifter LMS is a great choice. I personally feel it’s one of the best on the market. It’s got a superb team behind it. I personally know both developers or owners of the plugin, and they’re just being game busting, the functionality and what they’re building and the community they’re building. So if that sounds interesting for yourself or for a client, go over to the lifter LMS, see what they’ve got to offer. And also tell them that you heard about them on the WP-Tonic podcast.
Right Matt, we’re going to be discussing affiliate marketing. Sorry, I’ve been trying very hard, and totally failing to some extent, but I keep it. At first, there are so many balls that you’re juggling.
Matt Giovanisci: And any moving parts.
Jonathon: Moving parts, so the way I deal with it is I put everything in a little department and then I do my best at the time, then I’ll leave and then I talk to somebody like you and never go back to it. And I know I’ve got to do better with affiliate marketing, but I’ve not been that successful so far. Got any insights about some of the key things people get wrong about affiliate marketing to start the conversation?
Matt Giovanisci: Well, I think what people get wrong about it is that its easy money. It’s not; it takes a long time to grow. It requires a lot of traffic because you’re not selling a digital product where you’re making 100% of the revenue; you’re making 8%, maybe on a good affiliate. 30% if you’re doing software and you have to be a salesperson, you have to develop a–
Jonathon: Oh no, actually, I didn’t explain this, I apologize. I mean on the other side, I’m trying to get affiliates and I’ve been totally, I haven’t [inaudible 17:31] in the right affiliates to kind of sign up.
Matt Giovanisci: To be honest with you, I don’t know anything about that side of it. We have it with Laso because obviously, it’s an affiliate marketing WordPress plugin for people who make money with affiliate marketing. That’s what it’s for.
Matt Giovanisci: Now we do have an affiliate program with Laso. People are using the affiliate program to sign up for Laso, how to get them energized to actually pitch your stuff? I think if I had to make a guess it would be providing them value; like providing them not value, assets to make it easy for them to put things. Like for example, I have an affiliate relationship with a company and they’re just like, hey, please just put one of our links on one of your pages. It’s all they’re asking for, and I’m just like, yes, I’ll get to it. And it just keeps getting pushed back, pushed back, pushed back. And the reason that happens is because it’s like, well, the thing that I’m doing is working right now. A lot of website owners that are not really into; I shouldn’t classify and generalize, but like going in and updating old things all the time, I think you’d want to constantly remind them and then make it very easy for them.
Well like, hey, all we’re asking for is, send an email out, send a tweet out, here is the tweet, here’s the email already crafted for you. Here’s an asset, here’s an image, just basically it’s providing them with like, making it very, very easy for them. Because here’s the thing, as an affiliate marketer myself, if you don’t have something to make it easy, it becomes hard. And one of the reasons we even developed Laso was, going into each and every blog post and finding the link and updating that link in each post, is a pain in the ass. If you’re running a bigger company, you would need to hire somebody. And so, because we have these large websites that get millions of visitors a month, we’re like, okay, what can we do to make it easy on ourselves as business owners to update and add new affiliate links to all of our blog posts without having to go into each and every single one of them, and that’s why we developed Laso.
On top of that, you need to develop relationships with affiliates like yourself. I also run an affiliate program for Money Lab. I run an affiliate program for Laso, and to be honest, like on both of those, I do a very bad job at providing assets and providing the tools needed to engage my affiliate marketers to go and promote my thing for me. You need to like have a system, everything that I’ve ever done in business that has been successful; it has been because I developed a system and put it on autopilot in some way because if it’s up to me to remember to do something, I will fail. I will fail miserably because I have SOS, right? So Shiny Object Syndrome.
So, it is just like a constant battle of, should I be doing this? Yes or no? Okay, I should be okay great. I’m going to do it. And then I do it for like a week and then I’m like, okay, I’m done because I’m bored. But if I instead, like I’m going to do this thing, I’ll set up a system, write down all the steps and then literally hand it over to a VA or handed over to somebody on my team, or at least for me, put it in a sauna so that it comes up every Tuesday, every Wednesday, whatever it is. Then at least if there’s some sort of like mechanical system that’s helping me push this thing along, it’ll work. And I think like with affiliate marketing it is like, hey, every week go in and update these posts. Hey, every week go and email your affiliate marketers and tell them that you’re running a promotion.
Tell them that they’re, you know, here’s a new asset that they can add to their websites. Here’s a new email that they could send out to their email list that’s completely written by you and for you just change things here and there. The more you make it easy and consistent or people, the better it’s going to be. And the same thing goes for the other side of affiliate marketing, just adding one affiliate link to a popular post doesn’t make money. You have to go in and add affiliate links to multiple posts and actually sell those affiliate links. Why are you telling me to click this thing? Be honest and transparent. Why am I clicking this thing? Should I be clicking this thing? Where’s this thing going to take me? And you want to lead them to the best success possible, which is, Hey, I’m recommending this software like you just did. I use this software, I like this software. Here’s how I use it. You know, give them the most amount of information possible and you will have the most success with people clicking and converting into sales for you.
Jonathon: Oh, I think you just outlined what I’m not been doing. I think that was superb Matt and just a quick before I throw over to Adrian. Is it also they’ve got to do everything you’ve just said because I also think people forget the 28 old that only about 20% of those have [inaudible 22:47], even if you do this work which are not been doing. I’m going to be writing out a plan after this podcast based on your advice, you’ve just given us something that you were spot on. The reason why you got to do that is that only, all the people that you outreach, only 20% are really going to send you any kind of possible clients, aren’t they?
Matt Giovanisci: That’s a 20% conversion rate. It’s pretty good in my eyes.
Jonathon: Yes, that’s true. Over to you Adrian
Adrian: I’m just going to expand on like that 80 20 rule really quickly because when you’re running an affiliate program, you get like three kinds of affiliates. You get the people, who are like, that’s their main gig. Like their entire life they do affiliate marketing, they do YouTube tutorials on various different products and they run courses and they whatnot. But really the whole purpose of their business entities to send people elsewhere and get that 20 to 30% affiliate commission.
Matt Giovanisci: Yes.
Adrian: There’s that group of people, the next group of people are like partners and implementers and agencies where they are doing implementation work. And then they’re going to send their people to go get their license keys and whatnot. And then whenever they get a client, they’re going to send them with their affiliate link. Then you have the third group, and that third group is made up probably the majority of most people. And those are like, oh, I can sign up to be an affiliate. That’s kind of neat.
Matt Giovanisci: Yes.
Adrian: Right, and that’s like [inaudible 24:16].
Matt Giovanisci: Like I make a little extra money.
Adrian: Yes, and it’ll be easy, right?
Matt Giovanisci: Yes.
Adrian: I was listening to your podcast and you it was like, it’ll be easy, they said. We’ll make extra money, they said, you know, being an affiliate is really easy, they said. None of those things are necessarily true. In order to be like a solid affiliate, you have to have a couple of things first. Number one, you have to have an audience. And number two, you have to have a distribution method. If you don’t have either of those things, you cannot expect any like sort of traffic or revenue from set affiliates.
Matt Giovanisci: Right, but it’s really easy to get affiliate links in the start. If you’re just getting started, you have zero traffic and you want to start making money the first person who visits your website, the easiest way to do that is to throw an affiliate link on there and sell the shit out of it. But if you wanted to create a product on your own and sell that, well, that’s way harder, way more harder. It’s a lot harder to do because then you have to do the product and then you have to build the audience. Whereas like at least the product’s already done, I may not make a hundred percent revenue, but I might make 8, 10, 30% revenue or whatever. So it is the easiest way to get started, and I do recommend it.
I sell my own products and stuff. We still take advantage of affiliate marketing because there are products that we don’t sell but that works really well with our products. Like, Money Lab, I talk about SEO a lot, and I talk about page speed and I don’t own my own page speed plugins. I don’t own my own hosting service with like incredibly good caching, so I need to recommend those things. And if I’m going to recommend those things, the things that I personally use, which is what affiliate marketing is all about, you would need to build trust. If I’m going to do that, well then I’m going to use those affiliate links. Why not take the cash, right?
Matt Giovanisci: Absolutely, and like in a personal case for me, I have a recommends page–
Matt Giovanisci: Yes.
Adrian: Tools that I use and other customers use in tandem with my tool. I’m just like, hey listen, people use this stuff. I’m going to go get an affiliate. I’m just going to throw out our recommends page. If a sale comes through it, then that’s great, but that’s like kind of the affiliate that I am, for other companies, it’s like I’m in the third group.
Matt Giovanisci: Right, yes, same.
Adrian: I can be an affiliate, that’s kind of cool, but I’m not spending money or exerting effort besides like throwing the link on a page somewhere, right?
Matt Giovanisci: Yes.
Adrian: And that’s going to be the vast majority of your affiliates, is there going to put the link on a page somewhere, but they’re not usually going to actively promote it unless, like what you said. You make it extremely easy and they’re engaged enough that they’re going to want to go ahead and do, but that’s a lot, that requires putting a lot of effort into your affiliate program. If you [inaudible 26:49] do that, then you can’t expect that in return.
Matt Giovanisci: Yes, you have to nurture that audience for sure. And then, here’s the thing too, if you want to be an affiliate marketer, I want to point out that it’s not all doom and gloom because I make my living from affiliate marketing. My sites Swim University, yes it gets millions of visitors a month, it took me 12 years to get there, but that site is doing like multiple six figures every year, and that’s all just from Amazon. With like the lowest amount, I’m not selling software, I’m selling physical products; it can be done and it can be sustainable. It’s just, you’ve got to start somewhere and you’ve got to build traffic and you have to build trust and you have to build relationships, and none of those things are going to happen immediately, right?
Everything’s iteration on itself, every week, every day you have to go in and just change a little bit more, one thing at a time. You cannot eat an entire elephant in one bite. You have to do it one piece at a time and it’s really hard as an entrepreneur and somebody who can do it all; the Jack of all trades who can do it all, wants to just get everything done in a single day. And as much as I like want that and I really, really want that and it stresses me out that it’s not finished. Sometimes I’m like, I need to just go into a sauna, break my tasks down into individual task and assign one tiny thing a day. I go in, I’m like, I’m going to write this article, I’m going to add these 10 affiliate links. I’m going to promote this, whatever. I’m going to create an email for my list and schedule it like every day, it’s like one piece at a time, and the consistency is what builds businesses, not trying to do it all at once.
Adrian: And I think that is a great point to start closing up and wrapping up.
Jonathon: Just before we do that, have you got any good resource about affiliate marketing on one of your websites?
Matt Giovanisci: Yes, go to moneylab.co, that’s just like everything that I do to make money online with affiliate marketing is kind of there in some capacity. If you sign up for my email list at moneylab.co, I have emails that go out that talk about exactly how I do it, the tools that I use. I have courses, I have an entire course around affiliate marketing and how I do it, so yes, there’s definitely a lot of information over at Money Lab. And then with affiliate marketing, we have a tool called Laso at getlaso.co which is a WordPress plugin that manages all your affiliate links and allows you to like update them. If you want to use it with Amazon or any other affiliate program, but with Amazon specifically, it connects directly to their API. You can build display boxes to increase your conversion rates. You’ll see where all your affiliate links appear on what pages and if they’re getting clicked, you can send that data over to Google Analytics so you know which affiliate links are actually working and where,
You can tweak them; change them without having to go into each and every single post to update them. You could do it all in one dashboard view. It’s pretty awesome.
Jonathon: That’s fantastic. And Adrian, how can people find out more about you and what you’re up to?
Adrian: So if you are looking to communicate with your affiliate list better, you may need a solution, may be email marketing or to be able to do that. Groundhogg is a full suite CRM and email marketing platform built as a WordPress plugin. So you can just drop it into your preexisting WordPress site. And if you want to find out more about how you can do that, you can go to Groundhogg.io.
Jonathon: That’s fantastic, and we’re going to have some bonus content. Matt has been generous and agreed to stay on with us. Hope I didn’t scare him so far. We’re going be talking about some of the things he’s learned about trying to build Laso. Some of the things, some of the mistakes he’s made, some of the victories he’s had, what learned from the process so far and anything else he wants to throw into the discussion. Also if you want to support the show the best way is to go to Apple and give us a review. It really does help the show a lot and I know it a pain in the [inaudible00:30:53], but if you’re getting real value from the show, please go over to Apple and give us a review.
And also I publish the shows on the YouTube channel the quickest. So if you want to see the shows the earliest possible, it’s best to go to our YouTube channel and register there, and you’ll be notified when a new show appears. Matt, all I can say is you have to come back in the New Year. Hopefully, you agreed to do that.
Matt Giovanisci: I can do that.
Jonathon: I think you’ve given an enormous amount of value insight, and it’s been a great show. We’ll be back next week, hope we have another, hopefully, great guest like Matt, offering some real tips and real-world experience to make you or your client website more successful. We’ll see you soon folks, bye.
Announcer: Thanks for listening to WP-Tonic, the podcast that gives you a spoonful of WordPress medicine twice a week.
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