#498 WP-Tonic Show With Special Guest Andrew Palmer of  Elegant Marketplace

We Discuss the Running and Selling of An WordPress Business

About Andrew Palmer Elegant Marketplace

Andrew managers the Elegant Marketplace and also the owner of Layouts Cloud, CommentLuv – the blogger’s favorite plugin and he is also the co-owner with Sean Barton, of Page Builder Cloud. I look after the Developers, product updates and general maintenance of the Elegant Marketplace Website along with running all the above and my own Digital Marketing Consultancy – www.somebodyshero.co.uk.


Jonathan:     Welcome back folks to the WP tonic show. Could hardly say the words there, and it’s episode 498. We’ve got a returning guest. I thought I would have him back because I thought we could cover some other areas that would be interesting to you listeners and viewers. And we got Adrian Palmer back from Elegant Marketplace.

Andrew:        Would you like to say that name again, I don’t know…

Adrian:           We got Andrew and Adrian, and I feel like this is going to be a tough call.

Andrew:        It probably is.

Jonathan:     So would you like to properly introduce yourself?

Andrew:        Well, I’m Andrew Palmer. Thank you, Jonathan or should I say, Dave? We are Elegant Marketplace.

Jonathan:     I’ve been called a lot worse.

Andrew:        Elegant Marketplace is a WordPress and theme plugin marketplace established about five years ago and I happened to run it. So that’s it. That’s who I am.

Jonathan:     And I got my great co-host, Adrian. Adrian would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the new listeners and viewers?

Adrian:           Hi everyone. My name is Adrian. I’m the CEO and founder of Groundhog. We help small businesses simplify, automate, and consolidate, their sales and marketing.

Jonathan:     And I just want to say over the past couple of months, our listener numbers have increased quite substantially. So welcome to the tribe, you new people that are watching and listening to this, give us some feedback, and hopefully you’re enjoying the ride. So, Andrew, I thought I would have your back because I wanted to talk about a couple of things that we run out of time when we last had a chat. And basically one of those was, recently you sold your business that you’ve been running for a number of years. And I just wondered if we could discuss how hard it was to actually sell a WordPress business and how long it took. So how long have you been running Elegant Marketplace? And when did you decide that it was time for you to sell it?

Andrew:        February 15th, 2015 was when it was established and February 15th, 2015 was when we decided to sell it within five years and we sold it on December 31st, 2019. So I broke my promise and I was about three months early, January, February, two months early. So when I start a business, whether it’s with partners or founders or whatever, it is always in the back of my mind, or even in the forefront of my mind, is that business going to be a saleable business and over what period of time, will I be able to sell this business? And it’s generally, with brick and mortar business, it’s generally within five years you want to sell your business unless you’re going to be… You know, we’re talking small businesses, look at marketplace it’s still a small business. It’s not a massive conglomerate owning over billions. And the restaurants that I’ve had, I’ve had three restaurants and I’ve always sold them within five years of establishing. One of them I sold within nine months. Because we just made it grow and then I want to do something else and somebody said, I’ll buy the restaurant. So I said okay, here it is.

Adrian:           Is the restaurant still around?

Andrew:        Yeah. And I’m still involved in it. I mean, if you go to pizzadellamamma.co.uk, the video voiceover and the video description of when somebody is making the pizza, that’s me. Which I did last week because it’s a COVID related video to tell people how we are dealing with COVID and deliveries and collections and things like that. So yeah, I did the voiceover, well I did the video, so yeah, I’m still involved in that one. The one in Spain that was sold 20 years ago, the one in Devon that was sold 25 years ago. I think the one in Devon is still going actually it’s like a fish restaurant, but the one in Spain is now split into two restaurants. That’s how big they were, it was quite a big restaurant. But I’m also, my agency work takes me into a restaurant works. So I advise restaurants on menus and food and stuff like that. But back onto Elegant Marketplace, how easy was it to sell it? It was actually far too easy.

Jonathan:     Was it? Now I’ve sold two businesses in my lifetime. And they’ve been almost as painful selling them as starting them.

Andrew:        I mean, I sold a printing business and that was under distress because one of the partners died. So we had to sell it as a part of the… It was just.

Jonathan:     Probate.

Andrew:        Continue, exactly. So if you’re selling a business under distress, then that’s pressure because you need to get rid of it straight away. Because it can’t be a going concern because you’re not selling it actually as a going concern. If you’re selling a business because somebody has asked you to sell that business to them, it’s a piece of cake really. Because you know, if they want it, they want it, If they don’t want it, they don’t want it. These guys approached me in Serbia. I think it was a couple of years ago, WordCamps, so I’m a WordCamp guy, I liked to go to these places and you know, do you want a coffee talk about selling elegant marketplace?

Jonathan:     Well, that could have been an invitation, that could have gone a very different way could it?

Andrew:        I don’t know. It’s not Eastern Europe anymore but I get where you’re going Jonathon, bad boy. I’ve got an indication there, I might still have my email on. And I said, no. And then a year later in Berlin, again, I was approached by the same people. And I said, yeah, come on let’s have a chat. And they’re lovely, I mean, it was a fantastic experience. I really enjoyed it. There was a bit of stress form filling, realizing the depth that you have to go into when you sell a business that’s pretty…

Adrian:           It’s a lot of passwords to change over.

Andrew:        For sure. It’s not yet done. It’s not all yet done.

Adrian:           The paperwork is like the easy part then you have to do deal with all of the small logistical stuff.

Andrew:        Yeah. And that’s still ongoing, Adrian. I mean, it’s kind of funny because I’m still running Elegant Marketplace.

Jonathan:     So if you haven’t got, you know, you said your plan was to sell the business in five years. If you hadn’t had this legitimate offer, now in trade offer, as I would encapsulate it as, you know, what was your plan was you looking at maybe using a business broker, or was you just going send out a lot of feelers through the WordPress or both?

Andrew:        Really difficult to answer on that one because I was probably asked once a month, whether or not I’d like to sell the business. So that’s a tough one. I don’t know. I can’t really answer that on Elegant Marketplace. I can muse about it, I can say that I would probably have gone to a flipper type website and seen what the value of it was. And had it valued for other reasons, insurance or anything like that. But the difficulty is it’s a vendor marketplace. It was always built as a community marketplace. So to help the vendors earn money rather than us, to be honest. And it grew, it grew so much that we actually earned money from it, which was great, was a real bonus because we had other businesses as well. We thought, wow ok, this is actually going to go somewhere. And we realized that after about 18 months where we hadn’t taken any money out at all. And then we thought, well, you know what, there’s money in the pot. We can start actually paying ourselves a dividend and making, and we can invest back in the business. The deal was always that 60% of the profit was always divided between whoever the founders were left at the time. And 40% was always pumped back into the business. So in advertising or in development or hosting and improving. And we set off on a shared hosting platform, and then we went onto our own VPS and now we’re on a massive VPs in motion hosting who eventually bought us. So I never really thought about offering it for sale because we were always being approached for it.

Adrian:           You were fortunate in that, you had a choice of buyers.

Andrew:        We did, we did actually and I said no to every single one of them, including the people that did buy it. The sale wasn’t necessary like I said, it wasn’t a distress sale. I didn’t need to sell it. It was earning enough money for the vendors. It was only enough money for us. And I had my British agency that I’ve got anyway and paid to build a cloud and layouts cloud and things like that. So there’s all sorts of things which were complementary to each other. So it was difficult, but if I was going to sell a website, I’d have a look at somewhere like flipper.com, see what things are going for. They tend to overvalue websites in my view, you really want to go to a proper accountant and say, you know, how much is this worth? Is it three times net? Or is it three times gross or whatever it is.

Jonathan:     And what a lot of people, I’m sorry to interrupt I just want to see if you agree with this. Also a lot of people in my experience, they don’t get their paperwork. They don’t get their accounts in order because you need a good profit and loss and you need about three, although some people would say five years, but I think that’s pushing it. But I think you need at least three years of good accounting records with proper profit and loss documentation, what do you reckon?

Andrew:        Definitely. I mean it was a beautiful process. You know, it was a chat I filled in a form. They expressed an interest, letter of intent, on letter of intent. Everything got given to them, so five years’ accounts because we had them. And even projections, they asked for projections, they helped us with the projections as well, based on whatever. And they’re very experienced in the web world so they know about MMR and whatever it is and your recurring revenue and all that kind of stuff. But I think they were more interested in this instance. They were just more interested in having a marketplace to sell assets that they’re going to buy in the future, which is what’s happening as well as do deals with hosting and other hosting companies and all that kind of stuff. Because they own Boldgrid, which is basically a page builder that’s out to other hosts as well, it’s just self-installed. And they’ve got 650,000 users on that. They own W3 total cash. They just bought sprout invoices.

Jonathan:     Oh, they were the people that bought sprouts as well?.

Andrew:        Yes. So we now sell that on Elegant Marketplace as well. So reforms is coming soon and special deals and in-plugin upgrades and all that kind of stuff is coming to Elegant Marketplace.

Adrian:           Your buyers are really putting together the infrastructure that they need for level domination.

Andrew:        Exactly right. Well, I could only take it so far because I play far too much golf. You know, you gotta think, it’s my birthday next week.

Adrian:           Happy Birthday. It was my birthday last week.

Andrew:        Oh, is it? Happy birthday Adrian. You’re probably half my age. I’m quite happy to say how old I am. I’m 60 next Tuesday. So I need to be able to think about, I just want to play golf really. I want to eat and I want to play golf. So there’s other things, I’ve got other businesses. The short answer really, Jonathon and Adrian, is that every business that you build should always be for sale. They might not necessarily be a price tag on there, but you should always…

Jonathan:     I totally agree with you

Adrian:           I was just about to say, I went to go see a guy named Dan Martell. I’m not sure if you’re familiar. He’s a big kind of coach business professional in the SAS industry. And he helps businesses, SAS businesses specifically like get ready for investment and exit and all of that stuff. Whenever you’re starting a new business, it should always be with like, the exit at the end of the tunnel in mind and when you’re building it. And I’d love to know what specifically, the pillars that you have in place to make sure, or in the business to ensure that the exit, when you eventually get the call that says, Hey, I want to buy your business. And you’re ready to sell that business that you have all of those things in place.

Andrew:        Well, the pillars are good accounts. So I’ve always employed professional accountants. So many businesses have a bookkeeper, and it’s your auntie or your mother or your uncle or your friend down the road or your best mate who’s just done a bookkeeping course, it doesn’t work. You need an accountant and you need to pay him. And it’s painful because good accountants are not cheap.

Adrian:           My accountant just asked for more money.

Andrew:        My accountant just did the same. I mean, I sold a business what are you think? You don’t even have to touch that. And he said, well, it’s tough times out there. And also just referred three clients to them. But anyway, accountants will charge what they charge, but that’s negligible to what they save you in running business expenses, claiming this, claiming that, VAT, taxes.

Adrian:           Taxes

Andrew:        It’s not all about taxes. What you’ve got to do is make sure that you pay the right amount of tax. It’s not about avoiding tax because if you pay the right amounts of tax on your earnings, you know that you’re safe from any kind of investigation and the taxman will investigate you in a heartbeat. And what you have to remember is that they have an unlimited budget. And even if they’re coming after you for 50 bucks, they’ll spend $5 million getting you so just don’t it. So you always make sure your books are dead straight, your tax payments are up to date. And we’ve got a very strict taxation system in the UK, you know?

Jonathan:     They’re just charming people to deal with.

Andrew:        Because they’ve never run a business. You know, that’s the key. They don’t know. What you’re telling me, you haven’t saved up for your corporation tax? Well no. You know, we’re running a business here. Have you ever heard of cash flow and stuff like that. So it’s not like do you save up, but it’s that kind of a question that they ask you, but it’s because a tax inspector generally has never had their own business. So they don’t understand the stresses and the strains. And that’s why you need an accountant because every hundred pounds you earn or hundred dollars you earn in the UK If you’re over a certain level, you got to put 40 bucks away for tax. And then you have a thing called national insurance, which is basically six to 11% of your salaries that you’re paying out to people and you’ve got all your infrastructure. So you have to make sure that you’re running the business. No good earning a hundred dollars and spending a hundred dollars. And I know these people, this sounds stupid, but I really know people that do that.

Jonathan:     Well, I actually don’t know how a small business that’s brick and mortar actually runs in the UK now with VAT which is 20% I think now isn’t it? And plus the rate

Andrew:        Well it doesn’t matter. Well the ones that have difficulty is our restaurants because there’s no VAT when they buy the food because it’s raw. So VAT is exactly, as it says, it’s value-added tax. So as soon as you do something, so a piece of paper when I buy that piece of paper, no VAT, right? If I have printed on the top, notes, that means it’s a notepad. Therefore I can add to it by writing on it. So there’s VAT on that note pad, on that printed note pad, it’s crazy. So there’s all sorts of different things, folders, you know, so you keep stuff in, VAT because you can add to them. So it’s value-added tax, is really quite a simple process. Restaurants then have to charge VAT so their custom is on food, if it’s hot food, take out food or even inside. So they are the unpaid tax collectors for the government because they’re not paying any VAT’s, they can’t claim anything back. But that 20% of their turnover, so if they’re doing a hundred grand a month, 20 grand of that straight to the government.

Jonathan:     Yeah, that’s the thing. So also you’re still running the marketplace business. So how long have you had to sign up, if you’re prepared to say that, you know, did you have to be flexible or was that part of the agreement? How long you were going to stay on?

Andrew:        I haven’t, there’s no end date. They’ll get sick of me one day, but there’s no reason for me not to sit. So what happens is that when you come into a business or when somebody buys your business, they don’t know anything about the business really, they can have a good overview of it, but they don’t know the vendors, they don’t know the customers, they don’t know the support systems and all that kind of stuff. So there’s a transition period. And during that transition period stuff is taken off your hands. So for instance now the technical stuff of the site, nothing to do with me at all. Support, well, probably I’ll stop doing support or answering support tickets probably in October. That’s the aim. And other stuff that we’re doing. So your role diminishes in the nicest way, just gradually diminishes. And then on a certain day that you’ve agreed to, it’s “See ya” or actually would you like to stay and we’ll carry on and we’ll do this and we’ll do this and you can do this and whatever it may be. So there is no final, there is a date, but it’s not something that I’m prepared to announce, but it’s certainly a flexible date. If I’m happy to carry on, that’s the key. And this is why it’s so lovely being bought by these people.

Jonathan:     Exactly. And now I’m not going to ask you how much you got, because that’s your business. But was it a cash purchase? Or was it a combination of cash and shares.

Andrew:        It was all cash.

Jonathan:     What are the things that you always say get a lot of people that is financed by the business owner and I think that’s a terrible idea unless the person that buying the business is going to put a substantial deposit that’s non-returnable. In the end, would you have looked at that or do you think there’s such a phone of nettles that you would avoid it like the plague?

Andrew:        Well, you can do one of two things or three, you know, you can do a number of things. So here’s an amount of cash and that’s it and see ya which I’ve done on a deal soon to happen on a couple of things that I’ve got. And that will be all cash and see ya. This one was an initial payment then a secondary payment within six months and then a third and final payment within 18 months. I’ve got no problem discussing that deal. That’s not that confidential. And guess who structured that deal.

Jonathan:     You.

Adrian:           Me, it wasn’t the company that bought me. I said, this is what I want to do and this is how we’re gonna do it.

Jonathan:     You can do that. I just wanted to say this isn’t often discussed in WordPress, because I thought this would be a good discussion. You might have done that I guess, maybe for tax reasons. Because they can be some tax reasons for that moment.

Andrew:        Because you don’t want everything arriving at the same time because you want to get in different tax years. So maybe I’ve had a great year this last year and a large amount of money arriving would then increase my tax situation. So what you’ve done is you’ve stage paid it basically. And I’ve got no issue discussing that. It’s stage payments and it was decided by me what those amounts would be and when they would arrive to help me.

Jonathan:     And you’re still involved. I think what the arrangement that I initially outlined, one of the problems is I think taking stage payments or the business owner financed as long as you’re actively to some degree involved with the business. I think when it falls down unless they gonna give you like a 40% deposit is when you’re not involved and they can run the business down and you are left with a mess basically now aren’t you?

Andrew:        Yeah. Well this isn’t one of those, this is not a stage payment on performance situation. Because that’s not the way I sell businesses because the business was performing well anyway, so there’s no point. So if it performs even better, that’s great. You’ve bought it on the basis of this and if it performs better, brilliant, you got a bargain. But if it doesn’t, then that makes no difference to the final payments because that’s the price. I believe the reason it’s staged is because I wanted it to be staged. And as I say, the two businesses that I’m selling very soon, that that would be one payment. And that’s it. See ya.

Jonathan:     Well, we’re gonna go for a break, we’re coming back. I’m gonna be discussing the world of Divi a little bit about Elementor and how Andrew sees the kind of world a page builder’s going in the next year. We’ll be back in a few moments folks,

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Jonathan:     We’re coming back. We’ve had an interesting discussion. I could see Adrian was listening, quite intently on our discussion, which he should be. If anybody is trying to build something in the WordPress world, you should always at the beginning, think about the end. But just to kind of finish of our discussion in the first half of the show is that I also feel if you run out of ideas about how to grow the business, there’s only one alternative the business will start to decline. So when I think you run out of ideas, that’s the time where you probably should consider perhaps selling it.

Andrew:        I totally agree with you because, and again, let’s use the restaurant analogy. When you run out of menu ideas when you’ve fed up of foraging for your mushrooms and stuff like that, you just want to say, you know what, it’s time for another chef to come and they may be able to regain that Michelin star. And it’s the same with any business because if the business owner is getting tired or fed up or bored or staff have left and your staff retention is suffering. Maybe it’s time to think about what you want to do with your life. Because I’ve always worked to live, right? I’ve never lived to work. I’ve worked hard. There’s no doubt about it. You can see the ravages. You know, I have worked hard,

Jonathan:     You look reasonably relaxed.

Andrew:        I’m pretty good, but I’ve had a very adventurous working history. So it’s pretty cool, I’ve done a good few things. But you’ve always got to just make sure that you retain your interest in the business. As soon as you get bored with it, it’s time to go because that business will fall.

Jonathan:     Because most people don’t realize to keep something static is practically impossible, either it’s going forward or it’s going to go backward. The idea that you can keep it static and stable is slightly delusional, isn’t it? I feel, What do you think?

Andrew:        I think so. I think you’ve always got to think about that, even if you’re growing one customer a month or one customer a year or 10 customers a month. I think a lot of companies want to grow too quickly as well. And that has its own issues. They’ve got some cash flow issues and all that kind of stuff. You’ve got to finance it. And then all of a sudden you find out one of your support guys goes off ill, we’re talking about our area now. So you’ve got to watch how quickly you grow. So it’s a planned approach and this is what I think about businesses and all these lovely little businesses that are coming up. And people think right, I’m starting a business and it’s going to be a web design business. And I haven’t got any contracts. I haven’t got any way to get the content and I don’t want to pay off subscriptions for photoshop and I don’t want, how do I do that? So they’re all in the Facebook group saying I’m gonna do everything on the cheap. And if you start off with no investment financially in your business.

Adrian:           There is no incentive to succeed.

Andrew:        There is no incentive to succeed. You’re a very wise man Adrian. There is no incentive to succeed. So put your hand in your pocket, invest in your business, invest in time invest a good enough amount of money, go and see an accountant, an attorney and a lawyer, whatever. Make sure that you start with a good grounding.

Adrian:           It’s actually, right before coming on this call, I got a question into my support channel. And it was a presales question that says, all of your plans are too expensive. I don’t want to pay this much. And basically all that says is that I’m not willing to invest in like the least expensive marketing automation solution currently available. And it’s like, how can you expect to move the needle on anything without any kind of investment? Because when you invest in something, it’s basically just lighting a fire under your ass and let’s get the ball rolling.

Andrew:        It is because you’ve spent that money, now you go do something with it.

Adrian:           Exactly. Right. You know, you spent that money. It’s like, shit. Well, if I don’t make money, I’m not going to eat tomorrow.

Andrew:        And I have been there. Believe it or not. I literally have been out. There’s a photograph of me with holes in my shoes and the hole in my shoe is there. And there’s cardboard there and a friend of mine took it in a garden. It was packing down with rain, I was smoking a cigarette looking solely depressed. And he took it cause he saw my foot up, cross legs and everything, the hole in my shoe. And you could see the cardboard in my shoe to stop the water coming through the bottom of my shoe. So I have been there.

Adrian:           When was this? How long ago was this?

Andrew:        This was, I can remember it was probably about 22 years ago.

Adrian:           So that’d be like what? 96? 97.

Andrew:        Yeah. 96, 97. No, it was 98 because I went through two recessions. So, and I was in printing, man it hit us hard. So there’s 88 recession, 98 recession and 2008. So I’ve actually been through three recessions and survived most of them, but one of them, I didn’t go broke, I was just broken. So I just had no money, no income, pretty much nowhere to live, and holes in my shoes.

Adrian:           And here we are, a million businesses later.

Andrew:        Few businesses later, none of which have ever gone bust, which is pretty cool.

Jonathan:     So you’ve established your kind of niche in the Divi world. You know, we’ve had some interesting developments in the page building sector recently. Now Elementor has reached over 6 million active users. That’s the free and also the pro version. They’ve had a substantial amount of VC money invested in the business, which they announced a couple of months ago as well. With the (inaudible 29:26) of Elementor and Matt Mayolek had an interview at the Spanish word camp about a week ago where he was extremely… Probably people would disagree with what I’m about to say, but he seemed very dismissive of the page builders, basically, his position was that as Gutenberg Richard’s the oxygen that allows page builders to exist would be removed and the less they adopted the Gutenberg way, they would disappear. How do you see things Andrew?

Andrew:        I think he’s right.

Jonathan:     Oh, you think he’s right?

Andrew:        Oh yeah. Yeah, because they’re not going to be page builders won’t be, and it’s not going to happen overnight, Jonathan and Adrian, but I think he’s right. I had a long chat with him, I had 15 minutes with him in the US when I was just always at Berlin when I just developed page builder cloud with Sean and told him what we were doing with it. And the fact that it stores good and bow blouse as well. And also there, Sean is working on a translator for many page builder to Gothenburg. And when I said, you know, we’re working on this translator to go from any page builders, straight into Gutenberg, his eyes lit up. And I like that, but I don’t think he’s got anything against page builders per say. But because some of them are very code-heavy, when I first started using Divi it was 1.8-megabyte file, installation file. It’s now an 8.9-megabyte installation file. So we can kind of see how it’s increased, I mean the CSS in it is just phenomenal, massive. And that’s why they’ve got built inline CSS, caching and stuff into Divi. They’ve now announced recently in the last couple of days that they’re doing specialist Divi hosting with pressable, who were part of automatic, they’re doing it with site ground and the prices aren’t any different and it’s managed hosting, and they’re also doing it with flywheel. So what they’re basically saying is you’ve got to have specialist Divi hosting, and here’s our partners, and it was connected to your API and you won’t get a special deal, but at least these people are embedded in Divi. What I think, and I’m no seer, but what I think Divi, Elementor or maybe not BeaverBuilder because that’s more of a development tool, I’ve always seen Beaver builders and developers page builder rather than DIVI and Elementor. Elementor is a DIY and DIVI I think is a DIY as well. The developer community is quite noisy in DIVI, but it’s very, very small. And I was part of that. So I know it was very small, but we are gonna see intelligent website building with these page builders, which will be the wicks model, you know, Wix are bringing out extra, you know, extra is already there it’s devotees developer-friendly. I think within 24 months, we will see a DIVI that will be a cloud-based DIVI, Brizy are already doing a cloud-based page builder with sections that you’ll pull and draw. And I put a joke in the Divi theme users group the other day saying everybody just wants the sections to drag in and Oh, by the way, they want the SEO built-in and guaranteed number one on Google, because that’s what people want from page builders they want everything, give me everything. So you’ve got to think because of Guttenberg, the page builders will actually become their own proprietary system.

Jonathan:     If they cannot survive, yes.

Andrew:        Well, it’s not a question of surviving. I mean, Nick Roach is,

Jonathan:     Well that was the wrong term, wasn’t it?

Andrew:        `He is one of the most intelligent people I’ve ever had the pleasure to meet and have and spend time with. And he’s invested in other businesses. I won’t show you, but they’re the models that I’ve just said, and he’s a very clever, man. And very dedicated to his community as well, as are Yoni and Ben and all the people I’ve found from Elementor, they are dedicated to their community, but they’re in it for the money. Let’s just jump over that hurdle. They’re in it for the money. They wouldn’t be in business and they’re making millions, these guys, and they’ve got access to millions and millions of dollars.

Jonathan:     Well, I think around 17 million least the investment, wouldn’t it.

Andrew:        But it doesn’t matter. They’re pretty much well off anyway. And Nick does well, you know that I think he’s still the sole 100% owner of elegant themes and he’s 32 years old or something like that. How well has he done from that perspective? He’s built a fantastic team around him. So with React and Gatsby JS and all the headless stuff that’s coming out and that the Shopify’s of this world are just gone vertical this past few weeks because of COVID and all that kind of stuff. I have no doubt, and I don’t have any secret information or anything, but if they’re not looking at going the Shopify, the wicks, the Squarespace route they’re missing a trick. That’s certainly the way I’m looking at it anyway.

Jonathan:     We’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show hopefully Andrew can stay on for 10 minutes for some bonus discussion. But we wrap up the podcast part of the show, Andrew, what’s the best way people can find out about yourself and what you’re up to at the present moment.

Andrew:        Well, you can go on LinkedIn and just search Andrew Palmer. You’ll find me, my ugly mug’s there on a picture. And at Arnie Palmer is on Twitter and it’s not because of the Gulf, but it is because of the Gulf. If you know what I mean

Jonathan:     Adrian, how can people find out what you’re up to and the best way to contact you on that?

Adrian:           You can go to Groundhog with two g’s io, or you can pick up a copy of our free plugin and we’re going to help you automate your sales and marketing.

Jonathan:     Right? And I want to announce, me and Spencer Forum. We’re doing a webinar on Tuesday the 2nd of June at 9:00 AM. Pacific standard time. It’s going to be totally free and it’s going to be about how to utilize Elementor Woocommerce and his own products to build fantastic funnels. And we’re going to spend an hour showing you how to build funnels that beat the best of the best. All you have to do is go to the WordPress, the WP tonic website, go to the top navigation, and it’d be a free webinar in the top navigation. Fill in a quick form, and you will be able to ask us any questions about building modern-day funnels. We’re even going to be talking about Groundhog as well in the webinar, but we will be covering a lot of content and I can say you will be, If you join this live, you will be able to ask us questions, especially to Spencer about how to build fantastic funnels. Like I say, that would be on Tuesday the 2nd of June at 9:00 AM Pacific standard time. We’d love you to join us. We’ll be back next week with a great guest, a great discussion. We’ll see you soon, thanks. Bye.

Announcer:  Thanks for listening to the WP tonic podcast, the podcast that gives you a dose of WordPress medicine twice a week.


Every Friday at 8:30am PST we have a great and hard-hitting round-table show with a group of WordPress developers, online business owners and WordPress junkies where we discuss the latest and most interesting WordPress and online articles/stories of the week. You can also watch the show LIVE every Friday at 8:30am PST on our Facebook WP-Tonic Show page. https://www.facebook.com/wptonic/

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