Special Guests Mark Zahra CEO RebelCode The People Behind WP Mayor & SpotlightWP
Mark Zahra is the CEO of RebelCode. runs a number of WordPress-related projects including the ever-popular WP Mayor blog, WP RSS Aggregator – the #1 RSS importer for WordPress, and Spotlight Instagram Feeds – the best Instagram solution for your website.
Having started out as a content writer for WP Mayor in 2014, I then got involved in customer support for our plugins, eventually leading to a Project Manager role. As we started to grow the company, I was appointed CEO and have been in this role for the past 2 and a half years. We now have a fully remote team of developers, support specialists, and content writers, among others, all of whom contribute to the growth of WordPress in their own ways.
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Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back folks to the WP tonic interview show. This is episode 623. We’ve got a great guest. I think it’s going to be a fascinating Interview we’ve got Mark Zahra, the CEO of Rebel Code, these are the people behind WP mayor. And if you’ve been part of the WordPress community, you know that website. Also, they do a number of plugins and SAS kinds of products. One of them is Spotlight WP. With Mark we are going to be discussing how he joined the company, became CEO, about WP mayor about using marketing to launch a successful plugin product, and also about Spotlight W P. And is that a SAS or a plugin or hybrid? So, mark, would you like to also quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Mark Zahra: Sure. Firstly, thanks for having the honor to be here. So my name is Mark Zahra as he said I’m the CEO of Rebel Code I’ve been involved in WordPress since around 2013 first time I started out, always been with this company. So I started out as a content writer, eventually going into sport going into a bit of project management, and eventually now leading the company and we are building a fully remote team based around the world. Building WordPress products and running the WP mayor blog that you mentioned.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And I got my great co-host, the intelligent, the good-looking Steven Saunders, Steven, would you like to introduce yourself?
Steven Sauder: That’s quite the intro. My name is Steven Sauder. I run zipfish.io We make WordPress fast by optimizing the code that runs WordPress and the code that runs on the servers.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And before we go into the main part of the interview, I’ve got to mention our great major sponsor and that’s Castos. Castos as you know, I’ve been using them for over nine months now. And if you want to get into podcasting, you need a podcasting hosting provider. That provides somewhere to host your audio files, provide the RSS feed, and all the other little things that you need when you want to get into podcasting. You know listeners and viewers that I’m really big into podcasting. So if you’re looking to get into it yourself or for your clients, Castos is a great partner. I’ve been overjoyed using them. I joined them. I signed up using my own money. And then I started discussing, with the founder of the company, Craig, we started having a chat. Then I found out that Matt Medeiros of the Matt Report had, joined them as head director of sales and customer experience what a dream team.
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So mark, as you said, you started off as a content writer, and then you became CEO of Rebel Code. So first of all, can you give a quick landscape of Rebel Code? You got, the great site WP mayor, those that don’t know about WP Mayor. How would you describe that first? What do you see it as being basically?
Mark Zahra: WP Mayor has always been a WordPress resource site. So we do everything from product reviews to service reviews and tutorials, as well as some sort of general articles. And [Inaudible] from time to time, but we’re especially nowadays more focused on product reviews and tutorials. So basically taking any product related to WooCommerce or WordPress in general SEO forms, whatever it is. We will review the product entirely write up about it. Sometimes do comparisons with, competing plugins, as well or competing themes in some of the cases, and we are focusing around those for the past few years.
Jonathan Denwood: All right. That’s great. Over to you, Steven.
Steven Sauder: Was WP Mayor the first product that Rebel Code came out with, or the first brand, is that the origin or were there other things that predated WP mayor?
Mark Zahra: So the origin story of all this basically comes on through our founder [Inaudible 06:00] so, he was running a web design agency in Malta. Started using WordPress when I was, working with the agency. And as he learned about WordPress and learned about products and how to do certain things he basically created his own blog as a way of documenting what he is learning. And that grew to become WP mayor. Similarly, along the way, he needed an RSS feed plugin. There wasn’t anything that was decent out there at the time he was talking probably eight, nine years ago. So he built the WP, RSS aggregator plugin.
And that also was, it wasn’t intended as a product. It was intended for himself, but then people also know about it. He put it up on WordPress.org from there, people asked for certain features so he created the first ad-on and eventually over the past eight years, both the aggregator plugin and WP Mayor have grown to become what they are today.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. I was thinking of where we’re going to take this interview cause there are so many different directions because you got so much experience Mark in the WordPress community. But I thought this would be a good direction. I think a lot of plugin authors obviously because of their background, they’re developers. They tend to think if they make a good plugin, the people just come, the users will just come and sometimes that happens, but mostly it doesn’t. Where I think with you and your founder you understand that you got to build an audience and then if you’ve got a plugin that’s quite good, it’s much easier to get it established.
So what are your thoughts about that and you’ve got any insights about how developers should be more realistic about marketing their plugins?
Mark Zahra: Yeah. So this is a very good point. I myself, I’m not a developer. Never have been. So we have a CTO Miguel who’s basically been employed from the beginning of aggregator, and his developed Spotlight, the Instagram feed plugin on his own. it’s basically been sort of teamwork between myself and him, in the sense that he can figure out the technical side of things as any technical founder would do as any developer would do when they are building out a product. But then he relies on me to figure out, what markets we’re targeting what audience, we are targeting how to build a product in terms of, the UI and user experience, all that kind of stuff.
It’s been a journey, especially with Spotlight. That was, the project which I took on from day one, it was completely my own. Whereas aggregator plugin was, I took over from Sean who had originally built it. So Spotlight prevented us from our mistakes, aggregator and also mistakes with another plugin we are creating currently, I guess, discontinued called ADT bookings. That was a bookings extension for each additional download. So we’ve learned a lot from those experiences, with aggregator it was very early on, in the world of plugins it was early on in its own niche. So it sort of grew organically what we knew nowadays that you are not going to be able to do that. So in most niches, there is an existing plugin out there with Instagram, for example, we knew there were existing plugins out there with tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of users.
So we knew we have to distinguish ourselves. So just developing something, which is technically on the same level as what exists or a bit higher doesn’t matter unless we get the marketing right, unless we get the targeting, right. And unless we get to even the plugin itself, right, the user experience as that was the biggest thing. So aside from figuring out how are we going to targets the right people, be it through WP Mayor or partnering up with others plugins course, whatever it might be. We looked a lot at the user experience, which we gave a lot of importance to and we still do today. So we still adjust things basically for a month, a month.
And the idea was that when someone in stores, Spotlight, it’s not just a list of settings, it’s not just a page with no instructions from the first page you see it’s instructions on what to do. So you just follow the steps, for example with Spotlight, you pick a template, you connect your account, your feed is done. Everything’s designed for you, fully responsive for you, and so on. So literally in less than seven clicks. you can have your Instagram feed and embedded on your website. And then you got to take things further. So developers like to go tactical like to offer different options and different settings. And that’s where Miguel had the freedom to develop his own stuff. Take things a step further, even teach me a few things and showing me how we can improve certain areas of Spotlight. And the combination of both skill sets basically helped us to get Spotlight to where it is today we have some 25,000 plus active users and we launched in late June of last year, 2020.
Jonathan Denwood: Wow Over to you Steven.
Steven Sauder: Do you think, owning a publication like WP mayor, like where you’re able to broadcast and reach a large audience playing a huge role in getting to that number of 25,000 that fast, or do you think that was just the need in the marketplace for this plugin?
Mark Zahra: So I think there was a need for a better solution than what there is now, or what there was rather, so everything was pretty old school lists of settings. You create your feed, you’re not seeing anything, you’re just picking some things, and then eventually you have to embed it and see what’s created. So we took a different approach. We took the essentially Gutenberg approach. So they copied a lot of the UI elements from there and you have a live preview and so on customization is very easy, a lot of presets into simplifying the whole process.
And it’s not necessarily, shortcode based where you have to build very long, shortcodes. For example, we have the block where the block selects the feed, that’s another mentor widget where you can customize feed within Elementor and all these kinds of things. But WP Mayor [Inaudible 12:04] a couple of ways. So yes, it helps to get some reach. And so we write stories about Spotlight we included Spotlight in existing blog posts, about Instagram plugins, or about social media plugins, or about different marketing areas or marketing. But I think the biggest advantage of WP Mayor was the connections of gamers over the years. So not just publishing on that site, but having the connections to other plugin owners, to other business owners, hosting companies. And so on that helped us early on in getting Spotlight either recommended by certain blogs or recommended by certain hosts.
Obviously, you need to prove yourself anyway. So it’s not just a case of knowing someone, you just get listed somewhere, for example. So you do need to prove why this product is worth mentioning why it’s better than the competition and so on. So we did that and it was a challenge early on as well to get featured on certain sites. But as I grew we built our own social proof for Spotlight, it helped us and we could get in the door a lot quicker.
Steven Sauder: Yea starting out with those connections probably helps just speed up that flywheel, as a good product stands on itself. It’s just faster when you have a connection. And, the quality of the product also matters a lot. So I see what you’re saying about those going hand in hand, you feel like not be being a programmer yet, like leading the company has given you a lot of advantages over others like WordPress shops. It seems like a lot of people we have on here that do plugins are also programmers themselves. They’re in the code, they’re writing the code or maybe they were not doing it today, but they were doing it at the very beginning. So it feels like you’re in a really unique position. Do you feel like that adds a lot of benefits to, creating and crafting a plugin? Or how does that all play out in like the day-to-day of trying to decide how to build the plugin or what’s the next plugin to build or?
Mark Zahra: I think it gives me an advantage in that I don’t need to think at all about the technical side of things. So I just think about how is this product going to work for this kind of person for this kind of user? And then I can figure that out of my own heads, look around for ideas or competition. Look at SAS solutions for 72 hours. For example, I’m just playing around with a number of ideas without thinking about what’s technically possible with what we currently having in the codebase. What’s technically possible in general, going forward, what we can do or we can’t do. So essentially the teamwork of that Miguel and I have is that I can think of any idea, propose it to him. Usually, I, draw out some basic mock-ups get from idea documents on some things and writing pass it on to him. And then it’s a conversation between ourselves, Hey, this isn’t possible, this is possible to do this. We need to change the code in these areas that are going to take up longer. This can be really good for the future because it opens up other doors.
So it works, in a very good way, because even for him my idea can trigger an idea for him in terms of the code. So we are opening things up for the future, but it’s something that had a Spotlight sort of very early on, where we weren’t just thinking about launching an MVP and that’s it. We launched an MVP but a lot of the code was prepared for a lot of the stuff that was in our roadmap for the next 6, 12 months.
Steven Sauder: Is it hard not to?
Jonathan Denwood: Sorry Steven we need to go for our break actually. You can always tell when it’s great to interview Steven always got all questions. We’re going to go for our break folks. When we come back, we’ll continue this great discussion of Rebelcode. We’ll be back in a few moments folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We are coming back, you’ve been listening to uncle Spencer talk about launch flows, but he’s also been even more generous to the tribe. If you go over to the WP tonic back strike newsletter, he’s offering the tribe a great deal on his lifetime license. if you use the link there and the coupon code, you’ll get a third off the lifetime license of his launch flows product. I taught I’ll just mention that. it’s very generous of Spencer. So back over sorry to interrupt you Steven in full flow, but I had to be done back over to you, Steven.
Steven Sauder: yeah, I was just gonna ask is it challenging ever not wanting to get into the code? Like you’re close to it like you’re, you could say like, oh, I’m gonna, I mean, I don’t know if you have a background in coding or like what your knowledge level is, but you could learn there, you could get into it and you can start diving into it. Is that like a decision that you’ve made that like, no, like coding is not something I want to do? I think it’s better off if I just focus on a product from a product perspective. And does that challenge you not to?
Mark Zahra: It’s challenging not to because when you’re involved in designing a lot of the UI and designing a lot of the product how it works, you also want to understand how it works, the code side of things. So there’s a lot of times where I’ll ask Miguel, for example, how something works where I don’t necessarily need to know, but it’s just something in me that wants to know how something works. I don’t have a [Inaudible 19:23] code. So initially when I started writing for WP mayor, at the time I was doing some basic courses in HTML and CSS, so I have some ideas there. I had done a very, but the beginning of a course in PHP, and a little bit of JS, but not that I can write any other code nowadays. It’s more on the CSS side where I can customize a few things.
Steven Sauder: Sorry. I think my internet dropped out there for, for a second.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, you’re back. So I’ll take over and so, let’s go on to Spotlight WP I’m big in YouTube and Facebook. And, I don’t do much on Twitter, and I don’t do a lot on Instagram, but Spotlight WP, first of all, is it SAS based on WordPress or is it a plugin, or is it a hybrid? What exactly. And then what does it precisely do Mark.
Mark Zahra: So Spotlight’s a freemium plugin, so there’s a free version on WordPress.org and then the pro version available on our website. It’s not the SAS, so it is just a normal freemium workers plugin, as we’ve seen before. Essentially it’s an Instagram feed plugin, but in reality, it’s a lot more than that. So typically Instagram feed plugins have simply been creating an Instagram gallery and that’s it. And the entire experience has been focusing on that. But in reality, we saw that there’s a lot more potential with Instagram given its the large user base, given the type of content that people post on it and brands post on it. There’s a lot of engagement going into that platform, which is much higher than you would see on Facebook, on YouTube, on Twitter, and so on.
So we saw a lot of potential as to where we can take the plugin. So aside from creating an Instagram gallery, which got put on the majority of websites nowadays, we take it a step further and we’re continuing to do so in the next few months as well, we’re focusing on specific use cases. For example, a lot of brands out there, which run hashtag campaigns on Instagram. So they would be launching a new product or launching a new podcast or something and they create their own hashtag and get people to share it and post about it and so on. So what you can do with Spotlight, for example, is create a hashtag feed where you would import Instagram posts from all around Instagram that uses that particular hashtag. So it’s basically adding social proof to your sites that can be used as well as testimonials. So if you have a hashtag with your brand name and people, like, for example, you have a clothing brand So they like your clothes and they would use your hashtag or tag your accounts. You can post those to your website as a social wall or a testimonial wall of some sort. And you have the Instagram posts directed there as proof showing the caption from the original posts of your followers and so on.
And nowadays it’s even, we’re focusing a bit more on the link and bio solution, for example. So Instagram doesn’t let you add links and post captions. It only lets you add a single link in your bio. So that’s always been a problem. Instagram does it to keep everyone on their platform. So there are solutions out there. So solutions like link three and so on, which is gonna give you a, a landing page, which is a reproduction of your Instagram feed. And you can have each post link to wherever you want it to link. We’ve done that for WordPress. So essentially with Spotlight, again, with less than seven clicks, you can replicate your Instagram feed on any landing page on their website. You have full control over its design. So it’s on your domain it’s not on link trees domain, for example, and you have full control over the header menu that you want to put in, the imagery I want to put you get to promote an upcoming event, and put about feed you can do that.
And you can reproduce the Instagram feed and there’s a feature in Spotlight called promotes where you can literally promote an Instagram post, so they can have this link to blog posts, link to podcast episodes, link to Woocommerce products as well we integrated WooCommerce. So it becomes a link and biotype of an Instagram feed, whatever you want it to be.
Jonathan Denwood: Wow. over to you Steven.
Steven Sauder: That’s really cool that it’s bringing that all into WordPress. I know that there are some other Instagram plugins that I’ve used in the past. That early there was a change in how the API works and you had to start creating your own app and then link your app to like your WordPress to get the authentication key. It’s like it was a huge pain. but Spotlight, it sounds like, offloads that all to the platform. So you don’t have to do that at all. Is that correct?
Mark Zahra: Yeah. All you do is connect your Instagram account once so it’s the authentication process that goes through Instagram itself and Facebook itself. So Instagram business accounts, it does it through a Facebook page, for example. So you just once connect and you’re done. We happened to, so they made the change, the API in 2020 and they’re postponing it because of COVID at one point as well. But we happened to, decide that we’re going to work on Spotlight and actually start working on it when that API change coming. So we were able to develop the product for the new API without having to deal with the old one and have to transition. So little timing was an applicator.
Steven Sauder: Yeah, that’s super cool. Do you have any plans for what you’re going to tackle next or what you want to do next after a Spotlight? Like it seems like Spotlights in a really good place and really picking up some speed. Are you just going to focus on that or do you have other plugins ideas?
Mark Zahra: Got a few ideas in the works we always do? So it has been of years of having ideas we wanted to work on, Spotlights grew out of the RSS aggregator as well. So it wasn’t just out of the blue but the RSS aggregator people wanted us to support social media feeds and of course, many social media platforms, had RSS feeds, but it discontinued them. So we decided this didn’t make sense to go into social media. We chose Instagram as the biggest platform with the biggest potential. So we started there. So at this point, the doors are open for us. We are not really sure exactly what we’re going to work on be it Spotlight for other social media platforms, be it something to build on RSS. It’s something away from those and linking to, I don’t know, WooCommerce, I can tie in with Spotlights shoppable feeds, for example. At this point doors open and wherever the ideas lead and lead.
Steven Sauder: Cool. in the beginning, I’m, sorry, go ahead, John.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, sure, thanks, Steven. I was just gonna ask mMark, what’s been the biggest surprise in launching Spotlight WP? What’s been the biggest thing that surprised you that you didn’t see on coming, basically? Have there been any surprises?
Mark Zahra: Hmm, good question. off the top of my head, I’m trying to think back as to what’s happened. the WordPress plugin has been something that was quite interesting to us, the RSS plugin. It’s been the number one plugin in its niche for a very long. So it’s always been ranked on top. We’ve never really tried to optimize the reason behind these kinds of things, but there wasn’t really a need to. Whereas with Spotlight it was a bit more of a challenge to actually figure that out. So, with the past essentially over the first around six to eight months, we were using tools like plug-in rank. We were optimizing the rebate. We were optimizing everything from screenshots to trying to get five-star reviews. All these kinds of things build up a sort of reputation within the repo.
But it was interesting to see how quickly things shift and how the rankings work. So at this point, if you just search for Instagram, for example, I know we’re behind deals and I know we’re behind, I think a cookie consent plugin, which had nothing to do with Instagram, technically I think [Inaudible 27:38] Instagram maybe wants [Inaudible 27:39] something along those lines. So it’s been interesting to see that and see how new plugins will struggle in those areas. So with Instagram feed and Instagram feeds are those keywords we rank I think two and three at this point, but, that’s taken us time, to build up. But to see how the rankings work and how the repo works. I think there’s a lot of work that can be done there. So it was a bit surprising and, it’s very challenging for newer plugins to score on the freemium model, especially to actually grow through the repo, which is one of the main marketing channels that new plugins typically use.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, we’ve discussed this extensively on the WP tonic round table show, every Friday morning, 8:30 AM Pacific standard time. We’ve had extensive discussions because it really is a bit of a black box. Isn’t it? Mark?
Mark Zahra: Yeah, very much. We’ve gone through periods of very major changes, which everything told us, they’re going to help us improve and we dropped into rankings. And then there were times where we literally did nothing, nothing for weeks. And our rankings went up for apparent sort of no reason.
Jonathan Denwood: It’s vaguer than even dealing with Google. Isn’t it?
Mark Zahra: Definitely. Definitely.
Jonathan Denwood: All right. one more. I think we got time for one more question before we wrap up the podcast and I’m going to throw this question over to Steven.
Steven Sauder: Oh yeah. I was just going to say, I think the whole searching algorithm is frustrating for both the developers and frustrating for the users. Like, I don’t think anybody on either side of the equation is like, oh yeah, this is awesome. I love how this works. it would thread one way or the other way. like with Google, usually the users love it. The person that’s creating the content, if you’re new struggles with it and is frustrated by it. but WordPress feels like kind of both sides and it’s like, I can’t, I can’t find what I’m looking for. You mentioned a diversified team and having a diversified team. what are some things that you do to try to keep the team connected? Or how do you handle communications throughout your team?
Mark Zahra: Yeah, so our team is fully remote at this point, we’re based in Malta. I have team members in Spain, in Jamaica, in the US writers in the UK, [Inaudible 30:04], all over [Inaudible 30:07] South Africa right now. So it’s been a challenge, especially with time zone differences and so on, but something we did a few years ago was put our focus on asynchronous communication. So we used to use slack. For example, nowadays we use something called twist, which is the same from the same company that created the to-do list the app. so it pushes a lot of asynchronous communication, sorry, where you do have normally one-on-one chats and group chats, but then there are threads, which is what we mainly use the document, I think, any discussion.
So it lets you essentially create a thread within a channel. So we have channels for each product and then Each product has a channel for development support. And so on. For example, support, when a question needs to go from one support engineer to the developers, they create the threads for that particular ticket and it’s discussed in that thread. So it lets everyone go back and forth. from time to time. That’s helped us, especially with time zone differences and not to disrupt each other constantly throughout the day, but it does create the challenge of the team becoming somewhat more separated and not having as many discussions and so on.[Inaudible31:18 ] actually something we’ve started doing from this week, from yesterday, which we plan on continue doing is introducing a water cooler. So every two weeks at this point, we’re going to be doing this, we’ll do one or two hours, where anyone can hop onto a call and basically just have a chat about everyday life just joke around and all these kinds of things, play online games, celebrate birthdays together and these kinds of things, and just have a laugh together, get to know each other because you do tend to, remain quite split, especially with Covid you can’t do anything meetups and all these kinds of things. We had one planned for last year but didn’t do that. so as we continue to build the team right now, we’re focusing on these kinds of ideas and hopefully once COVID situations better, we’d be able to meet up once, twice, three times a year, work camps, and so on and actually get to know each other face-to-face.
Jonathan Denwood: That sounds great. I think we’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show. Mark, are you up for staying another 15 minutes, which we call bonus content, which everybody can watch the whole interview plus the bonus content on the WP tonic YouTube channel. So you’re up for another 15 minutes, mark. We haven’t peeved him off too much. He seems very calm and collective, so we’re going to wrap up the podcast about the show. If you really want to support the show in folks, go over to the WP tonic backstroke newsletter, sign up for our weekly newsletter. It’s going to be, we’re going to be discussing all the stories that we discuss on the WP tonic round table shown in more detail, plus all the links to the products that we recommend in the round table show plus exclusive offers that will only be offered in the newsletter.
So you definitely want to sign up for that. it’s going to be a great resource for you. So please do that and you will be supporting the tribe as well. So mark, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and Rebel Code?
Mark Zahra: So you can follow me on Twitter @MarkZahra you can follow us on WPMayor.com, SpotlightWP.com, and WPRSSaggregator.com
Jonathan Denwood: And all those links will be in the supporting show notes for this great interview. So, Steven, What’s the best way for people to find out more about you and your great company?
Steven Sauder: Head over to zipfish.io to run a speed test to see how much faster we can make your website.
Jonathan Denwood: Yes, they are the speed demons. And if you’re looking for real performance for large websites, Steven and his team are the people to approach. we’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show, but do go over and listen to the bonus content and also subscribe to the WP-Tonic YouTube channel. We’ll see you next week for another great interview with another great individual in the WordPress community see you soon folks.
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