How To Build Real Community In WordPress
With Special Guests: Anne McCarthy Developer Relations Wrangler at Automattic
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Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back folks. The WP to interview show. This is episode 629. We’ve got a great guest. We’ve got Anne McCarthy Developer Relations Wrangler – Automattic and we’re gonna- the main title of the show is how to build real community in WordPress. I’m gonna let Anne introduce herself quickly. And then we go into the main part of this great interview. So, Anne, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the tribe?
Anne McCarthy: I’d love to my name is Anne McCarthy as Jonathan mentioned, I’m a developer Relations Wrangler for Automattic. I just started in this role in April 2020, right when the pandemic hit. So this is actually a very timely show and something that I think a lot about since I’ve basically started this work and the job that I have now when COVID really shut down the community. So I’m very excited to talk about this. And as I mentioned before, the show, I’m super appreciative that you do these interviews and that you create a space for these conversations to happen. So thank you.
Jonathan Denwood: It’s very nice of you to say that, Anne, I much appreciate you saying that. You are a champ. Steven, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the new listeners and followers?
Steven Sauder: Yeah. My name’s Steven Sauder from zipfish.io soon to actually hustle fish.com. So going through a little bit of a merger right now, which means my plate is really full of all sorts of meetings and fun, things like that.
Jonathan Denwood: All right you have to tell us more, maybe after the show, you probably have to disappear, but we need to have a chat about that. So before we go into the main part of the interview, I want to talk about our great main sponsor and that’s Castos. Castos is if you are looking to get into podcasting for yourself or for clients, it’s a great platform for that. You need an RSS feed, you need somewhere to store your audio files. You need a lot of other small elements to make your podcasting adventure enjoyable, and Castos provide that.
They also provide a great interface, a great support team. You probably have known of Matt Medeiros of the Matt Report. He’s their head of customer relations and happiness, and he’s a great guy, a great supporter of the show. They’re a great WordPress focus company in the podcasting space. So I suggest that you should go over and have a look at what they’ve got to offer and tell them that you heard about them on the WP-Tonic Show that really supports the show and the tribe. So, Anne maybe you could give us a quick background of how you got involved in WordPress, how you got involved in Automattic and your semi-new roles develop of relations Wrangler at Automattic.
Anne McCarthy: Yeah, so I actually originally started out using blogger. That was the first blogging platform I used. And I used it to connect with a friend because AIM couldn’t handle how much you wanted to say to each other. So we had private blogger accounts and, and when I went off to school at the University of North Carolina in the chapel hill I needed a job and there was a position open for an instructional technologist. And I interviewed a wonderful man named Jeff Vanjimlin, who basically introduced me to WordPress. And it was my first remote job. It was my first job in WordPress. And the whole point of it was to teach professors and students and clubs, how to use WordPress. And they were actually in the moment of transition away from other platforms to a multisite on campus.
So it was a pretty neat time. As a student, I always joke that I have two degrees. I majored in psychology, but then I got a crash course in WordPress and multisite. And so by the time I graduated I found out that UNC was actually a VIP client of Automatics. And so some of my coworkers had an amazing meet-up with the VIP team and came back and I was about to graduate and they’re like, Anne, you have to apply like just apply to something there you’ll have so much fun. And I had no idea that the community existed, I had just gone to my first-word camp in 2013 and in Raleigh. And it was very small. Like I knew all the speakers, which was kind of strange. Like it kind of was just more like a gathering of friends and that was my first foray into things.
And then once I joined Automattic, I kind of really opened my eyes. I think two weeks after I joined in 2014, I went to word camp San Francisco and it was just like, what I was, it is like going to Disneyland. I was like, I didn’t know. Like I thought we just had like a stuffed animal of, you know, a character, but like now to actually be surrounded by everyone I actually stopped Matt Monweue from going into the green room, because I didn’t recognize him. So it was kind of a funny experience to be around all those folks who made something, such a meaningful part of my time in college and in my own life to actually meet those people in person.
And at Automattic, I started as a happiness engineer on the vault press team and then moved into Jetpack. Whenever the products got merged slowly but surely and have kind of messed with so many different plugins at the company from JP Job manager to Sense to crowd signal previously pull daddy. So I kind of had a, you know, I was involved with the community in terms of how those plugins interact with the community space, but I wasn’t actually in the community beyond just going to events, maybe representing Jetpack or volunteering. And so switching into this role in April 2020 was really exciting and like a big opportunity for me to take what I’ve learned from working with people across different time zones and cultures and products, and actually go out into the community. And in my mind, give back so much of what I’ve been given. I really credit WordPress to changing my life in many ways. So it’s been really a neat and fun role and also a strange time to be doing literally a relations job whenever the main way that we would relate with each other through word camps and meetups has changed drastically.
Jonathan Denwood: Right over to you Steven.
Steven Sauder: You mentioned WordPress meetups and stuff, which feels like a very core aspect of what WordPress is. And a lot of people got introduced to it or found that community. And a lot of those have stopped over the course of COVID and all of that. What have you been seeing, like from the WordPress community? Like how are people communicating or like still building that sense of community or is it something that’s kind of just been put on pause, everybody’s been, working on their own code in their own rooms, and then everyone’s just excited about the possibility of getting back out and showing what you know they’ve done over the last year and a half, two years.
Anne McCarthy: Yeah. It’s super interesting. You asked this because I feel like I almost had a lesson in this just within Automattic itself because we only see each other like once a year. So the second I joined the company within about a month, I started a thing called Automattic life chats, which was essentially pairing up people from across the company manually at the time to just get to know each other. This is when we were about like 230 people or something like that. And so throughout my time at the company, I’ve been thinking a lot about how do you connect people? When it’s so much easier to disengage like we’re all overwhelmed with notifications we all like are trying to do our best and do work. You know we all have like loved ones that we’re having to help manage in like a real-life that we’re also building our workaround.
And I saw a lot of this at play with the community now. And the way I try to think of it is almost like a what’s the opportunity with COVID like, how can we actually make our communities more resilient? How can we use this time to actually like not to rely on? So one of the things we talk about is like, don’t rely on meetups to get to know each other. Don’t rely on meetups to get the most work done. So like how can we actually build that in when for WordPress, the meetups, and Word camps, that was the staple that was the backbone. What can we create now that even when we can go back in person, suddenly we’re not relying on those spaces? And we can actually include more people as accessible as those events often are, especially cost-wise and sometimes they have childcare. They still are not that accessible to everyone.
So I keep thinking about like, who else can show up right now that others otherwise could not show up in these spaces? And for me personally, one of the coolest things that I’ve seen is the meetups that are just doing them online and letting anyone join. So I’ve been able to like travel the world from my, home and meet people from across different communities and jump in and talk about like full-coding or 5.8 when it was coming out and actually connect with people that otherwise I’d actually traveled to their place and meet them in person. And to be able to do that in groups of 10 to groups of 100 has been really exciting and cool.
In particular, I love the mega meet-up that folks in Florida do I’m actually from Florida originally. I think that’s a really cool model. So anytime you can join together within the WordPress space itself, I actually have spearheaded a couple of different ideas. One is the outreach program for full coding and that’s been like a really neat community space. And originally it was just supposed to be for feedback. So just calls for testing, but I quickly realized I really missed not the presentations, like the presentations are great and you know, you learn a lot and whatever. And like everything was going online at the time. What I missed was the, like you’re walking down a hallway and you bump into someone and you start talking, one of you pulls out a computer, next thing, you know, you’re opening an issue. Like it’s like, I missed that.
So I started this like joking idea of like very casual, like grassroots just hallway hangouts.
And it kind of was inspired by some folks who I saw streaming. I saw some teams doing like the docs’ team does a great like coffee break to get together coffee break. That basically brings whatever drink you want. And they just hang out and talk. And so running these like hallway Hangouts from everything, like recently, there was one on the navigation editor where they were comparing the old and the new I’m actually running one tomorrow for the outreach program going over like high level, full-coding issues. And then I’m running another one with a group of folks on adoption pathways for full-coding. And it’s like, and some of them are super formalized on a topic. Some are like, Hey, I’m trying to build a block theme and I’m just gonna live stream this.
Like Helen did a really cool one around widgets. She also did one-round block theming. So I love seeing that because you’re actually able to have without feeling like you’re imposing, you can sit with someone for three hours and watch them do magic, basically. Like watching Helen work for three hours. I was like, this is incredible. And I’ve watched and take notes and written down all the bugs she finds whenever she does streams, which is always really fun. So those kinds of things make me really excited, especially because it’s also recorded. Previously those conversations with contributors were behind closed doors at dinners. Now it’s like, oh, can we have these out in the open? And I think with 5.8, even the go-no-go date and the demo that they did that was recorded with Mattias and Matt and Jessefa and Helen that’s really cool. You actually get to see the guts of WordPress. And to me, all of this will make us more resilient in the long run.
Steven Sauder: Yeah. I really like that perspective because I feel like it’s so easy for me to like get stuck into what’s changed or what’s different instead of like, what have we gained? And like, just jump into this, like there’s stuff that’s happened that is really cool that it never would’ve happened, you know, without forcing everybody to be able to start using webcams and microphones and stuff like that. I mean like me getting on the WP tonic show and meeting Jonathan was all because of, you know, COVID stuff. Because you’re out there making connections reaching out to people that you normally wouldn’t because you know you are not randomly bumping into people in the hallway, so you just randomly bump into people Online.
Jonathan Denwood: And it’s all been downhill since so I just wanna put this to you, Anne. I felt before COVID and this varies cause each word camp has its own personality to some extent it’s own feeling, buzz, whatever word you want to use, but I feel it’s like the Florida word camp or the orange county or the LA or the Las Vegas. They all got a different kind of vibe. But in general, I think there was kind of problems before COVID that the format was getting a little bit tired. That you were seeing the same speakers almost at all the events and getting more exclusive- more diverse speakers it is difficult cause we got to face facts that WordPress is a highly developer dominated project. So diversity sometimes can be a bit difficult. Do you think there’s any truth in my observation? And maybe you got some remarks before we go for our break Anne.
Anne McCarthy: Yeah. I’m trying to think because I was always an enthusiastic participant. I’ve never actually managed an event. So I can’t speak from that side. I can just speak from it, I actually am also kind of the nomad before COVID so they would send me off to everything cause I have no kids, I have no pet, I have no partner they’re like, Anne you wanna go to this? I’m like great. So I’ve been to a lot of different at once and what you’re describing I think is really interesting. It reminds me of Paul Graham has article about the message a city sends and how each city is a little bit different about what it values. And I noticed that with word camps is like there’s a little bit of a different vibe to each one. So it’s a really good call out.
I do think there are problems. For sure As I think especially in terms of I hate to use the very generalized term of accessibility, but who can actually go to those and have time to attend? I think is really tricky. And then there’s also like an exclusivity. Like I know personally it’s like I didn’t know the players. So like it was one of those things where if you don’t actually know people before you go, it’s almost like summer camp, you’re a little bit left out. You’re like everyone else has friends, but what about me? And I actually brought a partner to one-word camp and she just had a horrible time. She did marketing at Google. Very smart, had a lot to offer and you know, couldn’t connect with folks if she wasn’t just didn’t know the words, didn’t know the, you know, there’s a lot of layers there.
And I think now with that being kind of shaken up, I’m actually hopeful that we’ll, see some of that shift. And I do think the diversity element and who you actually include in the spaces that you create that is something I’m also keen to see iterated upon when, and if we return and what that looks like, because I think there’s a lot of folks who, I mean, speaking personally, I get really anxious about public speaking. I do not like giving talks. I get physically shaky. Like it’s not fun, but this format is easy so I’ve given more talks than I ever have in my entire life. And feel a lot better about recording them because it actually is way less for my mental health it’s way easier for me, you know, I’m not unable to sleep the night before and I imagine that’s true for a lot of people. So yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan Denwood: I think I’ve done a bit of public speaking and you do get nervous now, but I like the buzz.
Anne McCarthy: Oh I do not.
Jonathan Denwood: I’m a, I’m a strange mixture.
Anne McCarthy: My dad is a public speaking kind of guy. So I’m surprised I didn’t inherit some element of that.
Jonathan Denwood: What I was gonna say is I’m partly introverted and partly extroverted I’m a strange cookie, which Steven would testify. So, but yeah, I get, I think most at public speaking get nervous, but I like the buzz of it. You know, I like being on the edge. There’s always been that little bit of edginess about me which I kind of suppressed, but now I just wallow in it. I just accept that part of my character. So how are we doing for the time? My clock has disappeared slightly. It’s my-
Anne McCarthy: We are 20 minutes in it looks like.
Steven Sauder: Yeah,
Jonathan Denwood: My time has disappeared. What, what up there? Oh, it’s come back. I think we’re gonna go for our break folks and I sort out my technical problems and we’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. We’ve had a great conversation with Anne McCarthy, the developer relations Wrangler at Automattic. That’s a mouthful, isn’t it?
Anne McCarthy: I know it is.
Jonathan Denwood: Even the title. Before we go into you just listen to an advert for launch flows. I just wanna say launch flows, is offering a really great offer just for the- exclusively, just for the tribe. If you go over to WP tonic newsletter, you’ll be able to get a lifetime deal of launch flows with almost a third off. It’s just a fantastic deal just offered to the tribe. So go over there and also sign up for our newsletter, our weekly newsletter, where you’ll be told all the juicy bits from the bonus content of our outrageous WP to round table show the scourge of WordPress and many, a tech company it’s all good, fun. Isn’t it?
I’m in the entertainment business for god sake. So we were talking about, so I think one thing that we didn’t cover before we went for our break, Anne was also, I think there were problems about speakers and about the same people being almost at every word camp and getting speakers. I’ve really attempted to try and get more diversity on my podcast. And you are part of that and that really attempt to get women and more.
Anne McCarthy: And it is intentional. It takes a lot of intentionalities and actually-
Jonathan Denwood: It’s been quite difficult and to get I dunno, it’s the lack of charm, but I would’ve thought talking to Steven would’ve induced them to come on the show. But it’s been difficult Anne. Do you think other people the feedback that you’ve got from organizers and just the, is it a general problem trying to get more diverse speakers and persuade people to come on things, and-
Anne McCarthy: I know right now a lot of it is, I mean, this has been like away all documented thing. Like, let’s just take like mothers or women right now. Like they’re with the pandemic a lot of times they were already taking on a large share of household duties and now it’s even worse. And I hear this with coworkers. I hear this from friends. I’ve read articles about this. Like it’s very-
Jonathan Denwood: I’m sad to hear that in a way. I come across there are parts of me are quite traditional, classified as conservatism whatever that is. But I believe, you know, I lived in Scandinavia for two years. I dated a Norwegian lady for over 3 years and I can tell we did the chores equally, you know-
Anne McCarthy: They have a lot of equality. I have a little Norwegian in me. So yeah.
Jonathan Denwood: In some ways, it was a very traditional relationship but when it came to chores, actually, you know, all the boring stuff, we split it 50 50. But you find, you get a lot of feedback. I know I’m going off subject a little bit we have to get back to it, but I thought, so you get a lot of feedback that affects their ability because they kind of dumped all the responsibilities of the household are they?
Anne McCarthy: Yeah It’s a combination of that, and I also think the exhaustion of showing up in a space, that’s not built for you. Like I know that’s something that like, I’m part of the queer community. So that comes up there is, you know if you don’t see anyone else, who’s LGBTQ, why would you, you know, you’re like, okay, cool. This is kind of strange. So like in core meetings and in core dev meetings actually, everyone reacts with like an emoji and I react with a wave and like the pride flag. And I’ve had actually people reach out and say like, this is so awesome. Like, thank you for doing that. I didn’t know there was so that makes me wanna join the meeting. So I think there are little things like that about there’s talk about diversity and inclusion and its like-
Jonathan Denwood: It’s a lot of talk about it, but not much action about it.
Anne McCarthy: Yeah. Well, and I challenge people with, if you’re having a hard time finding diversity, think about the space that you’re creating, like, think about how you’re reaching out to people. Cause it’s not just about pulling people on. It’s like, what’s the experience when they actually come. Because I can tell you if someone has a great time in your community, they’re gonna tell their friends. And that is it’s just humanity. It’s how we are. And like, if I know for me like I have told a lot of queer friends who are in tech, I’m like, hey, the word press space is really cool. I actually was a part of a group that helped, you know, through Automattic, we sponsored like LGBTQ meet-up at one of the WordCamp, US. Like that kind of dynamic where you can actually have these communities within communities I think are really important. But it’s also thinking about inclusion first before you think about diversity. Because I think you’ll find it’s really important when you do have people from different backgrounds on that they feel really comfortable and it’s a space that’s thought of, they have thought of them before they come. Does that make any sense?
Jonathan Denwood: Oh totally. Anne. Cause you know, I am a 58-year-old, six-foot English person, people when they see me and I’m quite a large guy bone structure. So I’ve been told that I can be a little bit intimidating.
Anne McCarthy: Hey, I’m five foot two and I get called intimidating so.
Jonathan Denwood: You do strike me as intimidating. I think to, we all have these assumptions, don’t we Anne you know, we just, and I think once we are aware of them and can consciously try and deal with ’em, they will always be there. That’s at the core of us, isn’t it? But I would hope people would treat me as, as individual Jonathan and I would hope that people would treat you as Anne and people would treat Steven as Steven, not just categorizes in-
Anne McCarthy: In a box.
Jonathan Denwood: In a box really, but it doesn’t always happen. Does it Anne? So over to you, Steven.
Steven Sauder: Yeah, kind of diving into this whole idea of community, I think in the WordPress space, I think like one divide that I think is interesting is like the WordPress Automattic people versus like the WordPress just developers working on the WordPress core or their own plugins or whatever. And I don’t think that that divide is like there because people are trying to make it there. Right. There’s a lot of effort to try to like a bridge that gap yet it’s still, I don’t know, as a developer sitting outside of the Automattic world and looking in, like, it seems like a lot of people, you know, who are friends having fun, developing content, working together. And there’s always this kind of feeling of like distance looking in, not that like I’m not being invited in, it’s just, we’re in different worlds and different places.
And there’s always like this apprehension, like what’s automatic gonna do next. What’s gonna happen? Where are things going? Because that directly impacts what I’m working on. Like the code that I wrote, you know, two years ago might have to get rewritten, but for oftentimes good reasons, right? Like the platform is progressing and stuff, but like I know what that feels like, but like from your point of view, what does it look like to be on the Automatic side and looking out at all of us crazy developers kind of doing all those things that have really strong opinions about, you know, how things should be.
Anne McCarthy: Well, for starters, I do wanna extend an offer like I’m @Annezazu, I’m, [Inaudible 26:47 ] slack. I’m not on Twitter. I’m like the worst millennial. I’m not on any social media right now, but the nomad. blog is my site. There’s a contact form. Like if you resonate with what Steven’s describing, please reach out. Cause I would love to help get inroad. Like I think that’s one of the things that I’ve started doing since I joined I actually have this whole handbook page on navigating the community and making these cultural things that are implicit or that you would hear from like someone at a word camp just written down like just write it down. And I actually have discovered this at automatic, like with long time people at Automattic, this happens as the same problem happens everywhere. I think it’s a function of remote work.
And I, part of what you’re describing is, you know, you’re doing this on top of your business. You’re doing this on top of maybe you run three plugins, like whatever it is, whatever your situation is. Automatticians who work in the community, have the benefit of doing this full time. And I can tell you it’s a big responsibility. Like how do I share just enough information where it’s not overwhelming, where there’s a really good signal to noise ratio. I think about this a lot with the outreach program because like in truth I could share something every day and it would be so overwhelming no one would keep up, everyone would be drowning. So it’s like, how do I see people’s time as like extremely precious and offer many ways for people to engage rather than just like, you know, barreling through it’s like, how do we bring people with us? Even if it means we have to walk a little bit slower or we have to build a couple more ramps. I think about that a lot with this kind of stuff.
And I think those of us, you know, across different companies like Yost or Bluehost, where you have full-time contributors, we all think about this. And I know there’s the idea of a like duty of care. And that comes to mind a lot is, you know, we have a duty to the people who have less time than us to make sure our PR descriptions are super clear where they’re not having to read 10 paragraphs about something or click on five different PRs to figure something out, which quite frankly, I do most weeks, like I feel like, I spend a lot of time doing that and we have a lot to improve there.
The title is a lot of it, I know recently a lot of discussions come around like dev tooling, and especially when it comes to things with a block editor, it’s like, how can we make it so easy so that there are those entry points that developers have always loved about WordPress. And I think there’s a lot of, I’m very excited because like people like Helen or mark Jake with like, Riyad like, there are people who are starting to actually like put things in place. Ryan Welcher, who’s also a new developer relation Wrangler, Auttomatic chimed in on an issue about block creation, documentation, like creating more technical, like complex resources there. So I think there’s a level of when you are automaticity I think a lot about foundation building and like even if for the first year, no one shows up and it’s just me being consistent foundation building. That’s fine.
And that’s what the outreach program was. We didn’t start, it started in May, but we didn’t actually start until December. So like between that time, there was a lot of just like consistent, like, you know, kind of like if you build it, maybe they’ll come but also like working transparently and wanting to bring other people along with me. And I think that that’s a key part of what I think about every single day. Like how do we move? I think Jesse says this a lot. How do we move fast enough to say relevant, but slow enough to be ethical? And so I think one thing I’ve been thinking a lot about is with WordPress releases, it’s like, we’re relying a lot on sponsor contributors right now. I don’t think that surprises anyone. If you look at you can go look at the credits for each release and with COVID that’s getting not worse and worse, but it’s becoming more apparent.
So it’s one of those things where I’m like, man, do we release fewer features, but then that impacts the users. And like that could let’s say you have like an enhancement that could save an hour of everyone’s time. I mean, cross 42% of the internet, like what’s the ethical move here and how do we do things so that there’s a really firm track record. So when someone can have the time again, they can catch up. But yeah, I don’t know. I think about this stuff a lot. I don’t have necessarily perfect answers, but I do my day-to-day actions try to live that out of the foundation, building, creating pathways for different people. And making sure that everything I’m doing is well documented.
Steven Sauder: Yeah. There’s a lot of tension there because. You have, like, I think you’re right. That like it boils down to the time. Right. I would assume that, somebody at Yost who’s a full-time contributor right. And like that’s their career and their job, they stay plugged in or they’re able to feel a much more part of that community, but when you have a business that you’re running, right. And you’re going through your QuickBooks and reconciling stuff and trying to pay your taxes and make your payroll. And all of that stuff, like being able to like carve out the time to invest in WordPress, you know, it’s a precious commodity.
Anne McCarthy: And all I can tell you, my brother, my dad, my uncle, they’re all small business owners. So like, I am very familiar with-
Steven Sauder: You know, you know?
Anne McCarthy: Yeah. And it’s something I talked to my dad a lot about because he’ll call me complaining about WordPress stuff and you know, I can explain it to him all day, but like he doesn’t, he’s like, no, this is still, this is a detriment in this way. I’m like, cool. Let’s talk about this more. So yeah, I think the best thing we can do is make it really easy to engage when you want to. And I’ll actually send you all a post afterward, but I wrote something called like ways, keep up with full coding that offered, like, if you can only spend 10 minutes a month, here’s the thing to follow. If you can only spend like, kind of just different scales of detail. Cause I think, making those communication pathways really clear especially because, to be honest, the making network is really cumbersome to figure out like the make blogs are not always great. So like how can we make sure everything’s tagged properly? How can we make sure there’s like very clearly like this is where you can find this information. And I’ll send that to you all later.
Jonathan Denwood: Right? I think we are gonna wrap up the podcast part of the show I’ve lost track of time, but I think we’re getting close to the 30 minutes hopefully. Hopefully, you are OK to stay on for another 15 minutes. That would be great. You’ll be able to watch everything and the bonus content on the WP-Tonic, Facebook page, and YouTube channel. Also, if you wanna join us tomorrow for the WP tonic show, you won’t be watching it because it’ll be next week. Well, next Friday put it that way. If you wanna join us on the WP tonic round table show, please join us. But you can watch that life on the WP-Tonic Facebook group page, just do a search WP-Tonic mastermind group and sign up and you’d be able to join us, ask questions and be part of the round table show and the bonus content. It’s a rather outrageous show, but very enjoyable. My language gets outrageous as well. That’s why Steven won’t join us anymore so I’m only kidding folks. So, Anne how can people find out more about you, what you are up to at Automattic, and your words or wisdom Anne.
Anne McCarthy: Probably just nomad. blog. I also, I am a big believer in connecting on- one with people. I am pretty introverted, but I love talking to folks. So if you ever have a topic you wanna talk about, I don’t have all the answers, but I can find them is what I like to say. So just @Annezazu on WordPress or slack is probably the easiest way and then just my site, nomad. blog. I share a lot of it ranges from, you know, mental health to WordPress, to like travels I’ve been on to photography. It’s pretty all over the place. So fear to warn.
Jonathan Denwood: Just like me as well Steven how and people find out more about you and you are what’s gonna be renamed company. So how do I find out more?
Steven Sauder: Currently you can head over to fish.io or hustlefish.com as they kind of get merged together here.
Jonathan Denwood: How exciting you gonna have to maybe do a special and tell us all about this, In October it’s been a great show folks. Like I say, go over to the WP-Tonic Facebook page or YouTube channel to see the rest of this great interview with a great WordPress individual Anne McCarthy. We see you soon folks bye.
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