How To Build Successful Niche YouTube Channel With Special Guest Paul Charlton of Wptuts YouTube Channel

After 10 years as an IT Tutor and 11 years as a web designer and business owner, Paul felt it was a great background to combine and start helping others improve their skills through YouTube.
This is why the WPTuts channel was created – as an online outlet for me to share the skills and knowledge I’d acquired and was still acquiring with like-minded people.
This has now morphed into an amazing online community of passionate individuals helping each other to develop their skills.

Intro: Welcome to the w to WordPress and SaaS podcast, Jonathan Denwood and his co-host Steven Sauder interview the leading experts in WordPress e-learning and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS. Take it away, guys.

Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back folks to the WP tonic showed this week in WordPress and SaaS, where we cover the world of WordPress and bootstrap SaaS founders, and people trying to make a living out of WordPress or their startup SaaS. We’ve got a great guest this week. We’ve got Paul Charlton founder of WPTuts, one of the largest YouTube channels. I watch it myself so does Steven. I’m excited we’re gonna be talking about YouTube Gutenberg, Elementor, a host of really interesting subjects. So, Paul, would you like, to quickly introduce yourself to the WP-Tonic tribe?

Paul Charlton: Absolutely. First of all, let me just say thank you for having me on it’s an absolute pleasure. So basically my name is Paul C. Paul Charlton. I run a YouTube channel called WPTuts if you’re not familiar with it. And the whole point of the channel is helping you create more powerful, more comprehensive, and more complex WordPress websites by expanding beyond the basics and encompassing tools like advanced custom fields, creating your own listing websites, dynamic websites. So just basically helping you to either improve your personal skills or if you run this as a business to improve your possibility to earn a good income by going beyond what your typical WordPress developer or a web designer can actually do. That’s kind of the foundation behind the channel and what I tend to do with WordPress.

Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And I’ve got my great co-host, Steven Sauder. Steven, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the new listeners and viewers?  
Steven Sauder: Yeah. My name’s Steven Sauder from hustlefish.com. We help agencies make WordPress simple by handling hosting maintenance and WebDev.

Jonathan Denwood: And before we go into the main part of this exciting interview, I got a message from our major sponsor. We’ll be back in a few moments.

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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I also wanna point out that Castos is doing a fantastic deal. If you go to the WP tonic slash newsletter, you’ll be able to see that offer, which is basically six months at a half price exclusive for the WP tonic tribe. So Paul let’s start off so you’ve got this fantastic channel, you put tons of work into it. I’ve learned a lot from you. I look forward to your new YouTube videos. So on this road to YouTube domination, what are some of the lessons that maybe you could share with the listeners and viewers that you wish you had known at the start of your YouTube journey Paul?

Paul Charlton: Tried a real job.

Jonathan Denwood: I told you Steven he would say that actually, you owe money now is Steven.

Paul Charlton: Steven. I’m just saying nothing. No, probably the thing I wish I’d known right back at the beginning was to focus on a specific niche. A lot of people will go into creating YouTube channels and creating these that have a love of something like vehicle repairs or in my case, web design and things. And then you’ll try to be all things to all people. And the problem with that is nobody really knows what it is you’re trying to do including yourself. For me, I think if I’d thought about this and planned it a little bit better with hindsight, which we know is 2020, I probably would’ve focused straight away on creating a dynamic web design, using tools like, WordPress, advanced custom fields, those kinds of things.

alongside that, I think WordPress itself and the ecosystem around it has moved on so much over the last 24 months that there are so many more tools that make it much more accessible to be able to create the things that right back at the beginning of my YouTube journey may have been a lot more complex and a comprehensive sort of topic that may have sort of like alienated some people. Whereas now I think the topic is so much broader with so many more tools that make it much more accessible for everybody. And you can definitely see that if you take a look at the tutorials that I created probably three years ago, compared to where they are. Now tools like Elementor tools like Jed engine, advanced custom feels all those kinds of things. They are getting much, much easier and much more accessible for so many more people, which I think is fantastic. 

I think my biggest lesson, my biggest takeaway, right back at the beginning, would’ve been niche down, find out what people want to learn about, and focus predominantly on that. There’s nothing wrong with looking at areas around it and complimenting the skills that you’re trying to impart. But I definitely think focusing on that niche, would’ve been the best thing right back at the beginning for me.

Jonathan Denwood: Have you got any insight about how you find out, I totally agree with you Paul, but have you got any insight about how people find out what the audience really wants from the Channel? 

Steven Sauder: Yeah. I mean, this is an art and science in its own right. And there are some great tools out there that help you. You sort of find out what people are asking questions that are sort of being asked on places like YouTube. And I think one of the best places is to look at the channels that you aspire to be like, in whatever, a niche that you’re actually looking to get into and become involved in the comments, the feedback that other creators are getting, and see what the people that are actually involved in the comment section are asking and not getting answers to. 

As a YouTube creator, you get, you create a video and you put it out there and you get lots and lots of questions that can be related to that topic, but you also get a lot of questions that are not related to that specific topic and they can often go unanswered. I think there’s a lot of really useful information to take away from the comment section on a YouTube video. getting involved in the Facebook groups for Elementor for advanced custom feels for WordPress, whatever kind of thing you wanna niche down into, Look into those places See the questions that have been asked coming up time and time and time again, and then look at answering those questions because there’s already a market and audience there looking for answers to that. There’s not been served.

So that’s what I would suggest, especially at the beginning of your journey where you have no reputation, no audience, no viewership, and no clout. Should we say in the industry that you’re trying to get into? So look into that, be as helpful as possible, become involved in all these different areas, and create content around the questions that you see are being asked again, and again, and again.

Steven Sauder: When you first started diving into the YouTube creation platform, what were you focusing on? You said you, like, you wish you would’ve niched down earlier, but like, was it still WordPress? Like, was that still a niche or was it wider than that? Like what was that spectrum that you covered at the beginning?

Paul Charlton: Well, the funny thing was, I originally started a totally different channel and I, still have three channels. I only actually focus on the WordPress one right now. But the first one that I did was all to do with music production because I’ve had a real passion for creating music in a home studio environment where people, don’t have huge budgets, but they still wanna get great results. So that’s kind of where I started and I kind of, like to take my passions and as I learn things, then I create content around those things to help other people that are pretty stumbled upon exactly the same things that I stumbled upon trying to learn. 

When I kind of moved into the WordPress side of things, what I was doing was at the time I was working with visual composer, which is a page builder that was very popular at the time. So I created content on visual composer and [Inaudible 09:31 ] wrong. It got good viewership. It got good traction. It’s still one of my top videos with over 350,000 views on, one of them from like two years ago, which is pretty decent. Which is kind of ironic for a platform that doesn’t really get used anywhere near as much as it did six or seven years ago. 

My background is teaching. I spent 10 years as an IT trainer and I used to take my passions into the education sector, create courses around that, and then find people that were interested in that and get them to come and fill my courses up. And the natural progression from there was to combine that with video and just make a platform that allowed me to reach more people, while still working a sort of nine to five job as a web designer and graphic designer kind of thing.

That’s how I kind of ended up getting onto YouTube. That’s how it kind of ended up going into this particular sector, just taking the things that I was learning day to day and thinking other people could make a business at this the same as I’m doing. So how can I show people what they need to know to level up as quickly as possible to start generating revenue, whether that’s from friends and family or local businesses or whatever? And that’s always been my passion, is to take things that I can learn and just share them in any medium possible and help other people do the same thing, but quicker.

Steven Sauder: Yeah. Was that niching down process, like an organic thing that happened, or was it, a very deliberate decision that you had to make? 

Paul Charlton: It was fairly organic, to be honest. I mean if I go back to, when I was a web designer, one of the sorts of first things I did was I created my own content management system. As part of that, you kind of understand relational databases, you understand the whole dynamic side of things and as ACF, advanced custom fields and tools like that became more accessible to more people and tools like Elementor opened up the doors to working with dynamic content and making that easier. It was a natural progression for me to kind of combine WordPress alongside those tools to create something that I didn’t see was being served very well. But that was more a case of stumbling into it, finding that it wasn’t being served very well, and finding that there was an audience for that more advanced WordPress kind of topic. So there have been certain aspects of my YouTube channel that has definitely been, specifically thought out planned out in advance, but there’s also a lot of just organic stumbling upon things. And then going with them and taking them further than that initial finding sort of like led me to if that sense.

Jonathan Denwood: How much time do you spend each week on this YouTube channel, this beast Paul? And what are some of the key equipment or software that you use to help you produce your fantastic videos, Paul?

Paul Charlton: How long do I spend on it? If I go back to when the pandemic hit, shall we say, which is what, what 20 months ago, something like that? Most of my clients are sort of self-serving, in other words, I’ve created content management systems, or built them around WordPress and so on so, they don’t need me on a day-to-day basis. So I kind of looked at what was going on in the UK at the time and thought, well, I can see where this is going. My business is gonna a kind of flat line for the foreseeable future. So what do I do? That led me to double down on the YouTube channel. So I went from doing on average two videos a week to doing five videos a week. I thought about it, I gotta put all my efforts into this now because this is something that I can grow that gives me control over this. I don’t need to be looking for new clients. I don’t need to be looking for, sort of serving those businesses that are probably struggling because they don’t know when they’re gonna be able to make money. 

I kind of double down on that side of things, went into creating videos five days a week that sort of took up as you can imagine, a huge chunk of my time, but with regards to the equipment that I use, I basically in the last year, pretty much a year to this month, I moved everything over to apple. And the key reason for that was when they brought out the M1 chip, that was a great sort of feedback with regards to working with a final cut pro. And prior to that, I was premier, using all the Adobe suite and so on.

So moving over to that means that I can produce content, the editing side of things much, much quicker than I could do when I was working with a very high spec PC, but working with premier, which if, you’ve ever used it you’ll know, it gets very sluggish very quickly. So I’ve kind of streamlined the business side of things. So I can create content now much, much quicker. I’ve recently built a studio that’s dedicated to working on the videos, which is where I am right now, which means that I can have my gear set up and ready to roll within minutes. So I can literally sit in the house with a laptop I can plan out what I want to do, test things out on the laptop. And then I can literally come out, set things up and I can be up and recording in five minutes. And then I can go through the whole process of creating content. 

So the amount of time I spend on it, it is my full-time job now. I mean, that’s without a shadow of a doubt, it is my full-time job. I’ve moved over to content creator, I don’t like to say YouTuber, because there’s a certain conversation that comes with being called a YouTuber. So I’ll just say I’m a content creator. So yeah, that’s kind of where I am right now. It is my full-time job.

Steven Sauder: So, when you’re sitting down to create a tutorial, a couple of years ago I was like, Hey, I’m gonna start creating some content. I sat down, created a couple of tutorials, went back, watched them, threw ’em all out. They were terrible.  What is your process? How do you-

Jonathan Denwood: It never stopped me, Steven, I just throw it up on YouTube.

Paul Charlton: Hasn’t stopped me either

Steven Sauder: But like, do you script things out? Do you run through a couple of ideas of how you’re going to approach something? From, when you have the idea to when you’re actually filming it, like, what does that process look like?

Paul Charlton: I’ll say yes to all of the above. Basically, I have no set plan for how I work on things. It all depends upon whether it’s a quick video, sort of like an opinion piece, which literally I’ll just sit down with whatever software or tool that is that I’m kind of looking at. And I will literally just go through it on screen with whoever’s watching, whether that’s life or whether that’s being prerecorded and I’ll give you sort of my words and all thoughts and opinions. If I stumble across something or stumble on something, I’ll just leave that in there. Then you’ve got the sort of more planned out content where I’ll have an idea of what I want to do. I’ll run through the basics of it, just so I can get it into my head, the process, and then depend upon the complexity of it. I’ll sit down and I will create a checkpoint list of what needs to be done in order. And they’ll just literally be bullet points. Maybe I’ll flesh things out. If there’s a couple of extra sections that need to be highlighted to make sure I don’t miss those points because as you probably know, you could miss one check box in the first 10 minutes. And then an hour into the video, you’ve gotta go back because you’ve forgotten to check something and that has a massive knock-on effect.

So I’ll do that kind of thing for the more comprehensive tutorial, like where I do the, how to build like a listing website or a real estate website or something. And then there are things that are much more comprehensive at which point I will generally tend to script out these sections in between that’s how I do my introduction and then each segment in between will be scripted out. So I can use that as a segue to the next piece of screen recording. I’ve kind of just literally in the video that I put up today, which is the first one, like I’ve changed things over slightly, and what I’m doing now is I’m actually recording everything on camera that you can see now. I’m recording the screen at the same time for the microphone going through my screen recording software, and then I’ll actually cut in between. So it makes more sense to be a little bit more when I need to be showing something on the screen, I can show something on the screen and I’ll screen capture that. But the bits in between where traditionally I would’ve been still, the screen capture going on and me talking, which can have nothing actually going on screen. Now you’ll have me talking to the camera.

So I’m always streamlining the process. I’m always looking for ways in which I can become faster at what I’m doing. I can turn things around quickly. I can increase the production quality without increasing the amount of time that I spend on it. So it really does come down. And if it’s sort of like, sponsored content, I’m working with a brand or a company, then it depends what the relationship is like with those. Like for example, with [inaudible]  who I work with, quite a lot, then I’ll have an outline of what they want and I will go through and hit the key points, submit it to them, make sure they’re happy that I’ve hit those key points. And if not, I’ll add something extra in there just to make sure that those key points are met. But yeah, it really quite a fluid sort of way of working. And like I say, I’m always looking for ways in which I can streamline my process just to make the quality, the better and speed and the time it takes me to sort of like produce content, just, more fluid. Should we say a little bit streamlined?

Jonathan Denwood: Well, that’s great. I think we’re gonna go for our break. When we come back, we’re gonna be delving into what Paul thinks of Gutenberg, Elementor, where he thinks WordPress is going, should be another Fascinating conversation will be back in back in a few moments by 

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Jonathan Denwood:  We’re coming back. Got some other fantastic sponsors’ messages that you’ve been listening to. Please go to WP-Tonic/newsletter. You see some special offers there around our great sponsors. So, Paul, it’s been a windy road when it comes to Gutenberg, but I’ve been a little bit critical, but not of the concept to Gutenberg just how long it’s taken to get to where we are. But that’s fine for me. I’m not trying to build a new engine as the plane is flying, am I? So where do you feel Gutenberg is at the present moment and where do you think it’s gonna there be by the end of 2022?

Paul Charlton: Where do I think it is at the moment? I think that Gutenberg is really only becoming a useful tool through the advent of third-party companies coming on board and filling the huge gaps that I can’t term a Page Builder because it’s not a page builder. If you ask me and this is my own personal opinion, nobody else is, is it’s okay, it’s great for creating blog content and that’s fine. When you go beyond that, you start to need to add in third-party tools. There are just too many gaps in it is really, really basic. And three years in, could you imagine a page builder company come along and charging you money for this, and three years in, this is where they were.

Jonathan Denwood: You wouldn’t. But it’s difficult, isn’t it? I sense you are very, you try and be, I’m struggling now for the right word, Paul. You try and be balanced, and fair. But my feeling about this is it’s been a bit of a train wreck in some ways. Would you agree with that? What are your feelings about how it’s been handled?

Paul Charlton: Yeah, I think, handled not very well. If you ask me the first thing they should have done, and like I say I’m not telling them what to do at the end of the day it’s  their business and they can decide whatever direction they want to go in. for me and I’ve said this all along, they would’ve been so much better too if either bought out a company that was a page builder, maybe a smaller page builder, but a company that has a track record in understanding how to-

Jonathan Denwood: Beaver builder.

Paul Charlton: [Inaudible] but has a track record of being able to build effective, easy-to-use page builders, and then utilize either their technology or their skills, knowledge, and understanding of that type of system that they need to put into place. Because if you look at Gutenberg, as it is three years in, it’s still incredibly clunky. You wanna do simple things and it’s not easy. The fact you’ve got such a massive disconnect between what you see on the screen when you’re actually creating content to what you see on the screen on the actual website’s front end. That’s like going back six or seven years ago, back to a page builder, like a visual composer, in which everything was made outta blocks. You would literally have to keep switching back and forth between those two different areas to see what it is you were doing. And that makes the whole process less intuitive, more time-consuming, and just really not a good experience. I mean, we’re all so used to everything being, what you see on screen is what you’re going to get your header is there, your footer is there, your layer is there. Your whole templating system is visible as your editing content. So you can make decisions in real-time and Gutenberg doesn’t give you any of that. 

I don’t see it ever being in a position where it’s going to give you that as for where do I think it’s gonna be at the end of 2022, pretty much where it is now and where it was this time last year. We might get, I don’t know, some typography settings or something, earth-shattering like that. Forsyte editing, nice idea. But surely would’ve made more sense to have completed the actual builder part of it before they started trying to build the second phase, which is now adding even more complexity into your experience of designing something where you have to use a specific type of theme, one that supports Forsyte editing. You have to then learn how Gutenberg is going to work with Forsyte editing while working in the back end of things, and going back and forth. It’s just not a nice experience. I don’t think so anyway.

Steven Sauder: Yeah, it’s definitely challenging. It feels like, I remember when at the state of the word when Matt was talking about Gutenberg, when it was first coming out and like trying to, address the issues of like somebody trying to get like an image lined the left or their text line to the right and how people just don’t know how to do that. And it feels like if that’s was the trajectory, they, hit that. This weird in-between spot between a page builder and their old editor. Then it got billed and sold as like an actual page builder. Which, part of me feels that like, maybe it was never supposed to be that, but that was the perception and the anticipation that everybody had. And so now it’s in this weird place in between these two worlds that, feels strange.

Paul Charlton: Yeah. I mean, they didn’t help themselves by working on Forsyte editing. I mean, they might have started out, as it not being a page builder per se, but the reality is once you put Forsyte editing it, you make it a page builder by its very nature. You now have control over the page content and the design using the same type of tool. So they dug the hole and maybe they should have stopped digging two years ago and you’ve gotta ask yourself, why is the classic editor still so much more highly rated than Gutenberg and so many downloads compared to people using Gutenberg. And there’s a reason behind these kinds of things. I don’t think it’s just nostalgia.

Steven Sauder: What is currently your favorite WordPress stack? Like if you’re gonna point somebody in a direction to build a site with a page builder or classic editor or Gutenberg, what are the plugins that you would point them to? 

Jonathan Denwood: Oh God, you’re asking Paul to commit suicide. You are publicly asking him to choose a page builder from 50, but off you go, Paul commits suicide.

Paul Charlton:  I’m normally pretty vocal when it comes to these things anyway. I think it all kind of comes down to lots of different types of decisions and what you actually want out of what you’re trying to do. I don’t think there’s any perfect stack because I think if you are someone that wants to create dynamic content and you want to do that inside a page builder, you have specific ones that you can use. I mean, whether we like it or not, Elementor is still the top one there for working inside that. But then close on the heels of that coming up. I think we all need to be keeping an eye on bricks builder because that is definitely taking on some of the big boys at their own game. 

If you look at a lot of the feedback with regards to people that use the different tools, there’s a lot of people getting really frustrated with the likes of Elementor. For example,  they feel like there’s a disconnect between what users want, pro-level users. We’re not talking about your, hobbyist or someone that’s doing a site for their, their own business. I am talking about people that run agencies or they’re doing this as a bigger business kind of thing. Then if you look at something like bricks, they’re doing the opposite approach. They’re listening to, what’s being said, they’re taking on board. What makes sense and not just putting everything in there, not throwing everything, including the kitchen sink at it, and seeing what sticks.

They’re looking at, okay, what makes the builder better? What makes the builder something that would steal market share from those people that are not being currently served? And I think they’re going the right way. So for me, it’s not there yet. There are still gaps in it that need to fill, especially because of the dynamic content, but it came out the gate swinging. And I think that’s something to keep an eye on.

Elementor is probably still the top one that I would suggest for most people to use, especially like I say, if you want to go into the more advanced designs where you want to create your entire site, you wanna customize WooComerce, those kinds of thing. Plus the ecosystem that’s around it is massive. you want to go way beyond what Elementor could do then you, sort of software like dynamic content for Elementor, you’ve got the [inaudible] suite, all those things give you massive amounts of possibilities, all wrapped up in sometimes hard to learn, but putting the time and effort in pays dividends. And that’s again, that’s the whole point of why I’ve created so much content around those kinds of tools is to, in part the knowledge sort of the stumbling blocks that I’ve come across over the sort of like the years. 

So I don’t think there’s a perfect stack. I mean, you’ve gotta look at oxygen. For example, it is much more developer-focused. I don’t say you need to be a developer to use it, because that would be wrong. But if you have a background in HTML, JavaScript, and CSS, you will get on so much better with a platform like oxygen and you’ll be able to get so much more out of it because of the way it’s been built to cater for those kinds of things. But if you’re a beginner, you can still get a lot out of it. You’ll just get more by knowing more.

When it comes to some of the other ones I really- Divvy is playing catch up because I think it’s set [Inaudible 31:22 ] way too. Beaver builder is very niche and I don’t really know it well enough to comment on it. I do wanna spend some time, but I know a lot of people that use it will swear by it because it’s built around stability and in the WordPress ecosystem, stability counts for an awful lot, especially if you are making money and charging people to build sites for them and those kinds of things. So for me, as I say, I think it would still have to be Elementor for most use cases, depending upon where you are on the sort of the ladder. And then if you wanna go beyond that, then I would say probably keep an eye on something like Bricks and also take a look at Oxygen. So I might have just dug myself a grave, but hey.

Jonathan Denwood: Well you threw yourself in it, but there we go, like yourself, I’ve got broad shoulders I get the impression that you have. Let’s go back to Gutenberg. Before we, we wrap up the podcast part of the show and go on the bonus content. I’ve also got some questions from the live audience that I will be putting to Paul in the bonus content, but let’s wrap up the podcast discussion. Let’s go back to Gutenberg Paul. So I totally agreed with your comments about Gutenberg, but can the third-party providers, can they come on the white horse and rescue this project? They seem to be doing it. It does, but I totally agree. It’s, actually the add-on plugin providers that are really getting it to a stage where it could be considered you use in any way. First of all, would you agree with that? And what are some of the key players that are coming to the rescue of this project Paul?

Paul Charlton: Absolutely. I would 100% agree with that. I think without these third-party add-ons Gutenberg would just be floundering even more so than it currently is. So the main players, I would say, you’ve gotta look at stackable. I know there’s been a bit of a thing around version three, because they’ve changed the way a lot of that works to allow for future expansion. But I think they’re doing a fantastic job of that. The dynamic integration with that is also opening a lot of possible, but it is. So I really want to see how companies will run with that side of things because that is something that’s definitely underserved and I don’t really see Gutenberg ever really addressing that above, where you’ve got the loop and things like that. That was added recently. You’ve also got cadence blocks, obviously, that’s doing, really, really well.

You’ve also got Generate blocks. That’s a really solid platform for doing your initial building side of things. And we know that the general press has a really good sort of reputation for creating a great theme. And I think their blocks plugin is definitely doing the same kind of thing. So for me, they are some of the big players that I think you need to keep an eye on. There are lots of other, [Inaudible 34:19 ] and stuff like that out there, which I don’t really use that much. but yeah, they’re the things that are making Gutenberg more usable because at this point in time Gutenberg on his own, if you open that up just like the plain, I say editor, just as that, you just look at it and you go, well, what can I do with this,  I can change the text, I can adjust some colors and I can put a button. And I’ve got some really, really dodgy-looking image effects I can apply. What else can I do?

That’s it. I think if you are a designer, you’d just look at that and that’s like just giving an artist a pencil and say, get on with it, do A Sistine Chapel with a pencil, it would be laughable if it wasn’t, that was out of our controls to accept or, reject, and I think that’s the sad thing about it. So yeah. Third-party plugins and companies, I think they are gonna be, as you say, the white horse is gonna make it a usable product for most users.

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, this is- but you’re not on message pool. You have to understand that people use WordPress cause of jetpack. You are like me Paul you’re just not on message. 

Paul Charlton: Story of life. 

Jonathan Denwood: Right. There we go. So Paul, how can people find out more about you and your thoughts and what you’re up to?

Paul Charlton: well, there’s a couple of different ways. The easiest place would be obviously on YouTube just to a search for WPTuts that’s WP T U T S. And you should find over 600 videos on the, there’s also a really active Facebook group, which again, you can just do a search for WPTUTS, and that will come upon there. And you can follow me on Twitter again, WPTUZ, but with a Z at the end of it, Just do a search for WP TUTS, I’m everywhere. So if you wanna sort of getting involved in the conversation and like I say, I’d love to see you over on the Facebook group, because that has over 7000 really solid users. It’s a fantastic atmosphere and that’s just a great place to be. So any of those platforms and you can find me and you can get involved.

 
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I just wanted to say, I’ve learned a lot from your videos. You just do a fantastic job, Paul. So Steven, how can people find out more about you, and what you are up to Steven?

Steven Sauder: Head over to hustle fish.com and if you need, any help with WordPress, be sure to reach out.

Jonathan Denwood: And if you wanna find out more about WP-Tonic the podcast, the YouTube, the content it’s basically signing up for the newsletter Tonic/newsletter, and also join us on the WP tonic WordPress mastermind group, where you find all the crowd from the Friday show, contribute content, ask, answer questions, really experienced in the WordPress ecosystem. Please join us there. We will be back next week with another fantastic guest. Remember to watch the bonus content, which you can watch on the WP-Tonic YouTube channel. We’ll see you next week folks bye.

Outro: Thanks for listening to the WP-Tonic podcast, the podcast that gives you a dose of WordPress medicine twice a week.