From Successful Digital Agency Owner To Online Trainer & Mentor
Josh was a professional web designer who built and scaled his own agency for a decade before selling it in 2020 to focus full-time on teaching other aspiring web designers how to build businesses of their own.
Through his online courses, podcast (The Josh Hall Web Design Show), YouTube Channel, and blog, he teaches web designers and web entrepreneurs from around the world how to build awesome websites and build and grow their own web design business to allow them the freedom to have the lifestyle they want to live.
The Main Questions During The Interview
#1 – Josh can you give us some background on you and how you got into the crazy world of web design and running a successful digital agency?
#2 – Can you give us one or two insights connected to what are some of the most important elements connected to running a digital agency?
#3 – What have been a couple of the hardest lessons you learned connected to running a digital web-design agency which you are prepared to share with the audience?
#4 – What are some of the most important factors somebody has to understand trying to start a web design agency in 2022?
#5 – What are your thoughts connected to WordPress is it still the main tool for a professional web designer or digital agency or have SaaS tools like Squarespace, Duda, and Shopify semi taken over?
#6 – What are your personal views connected to Gutenberg?
This Week Show’s Sponsors
Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic WordPress and SAS podcast, Jonathan Denwood and his co-host Steven Sauder, interview the leading experts in WordPress, e-learning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SAS. Take it away, guys.
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back folks to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SAS, this is episode 673. We’ve got a great guest, I’ve got a seven new co-host, but he’s well known to the tribe and it should be a great show, our guest is Josh Hall and my co-host this week and might be in the coming weeks as well, is the only Andrew Palmer. I’m going to let Josh quickly introduce himself, so Josh, can you quickly introduce yourself to the tribe?
Josh Hall: Sure thing, it’s great to be here with you guys on the show. I’m Josh; I am a web design coach, so I help web design freelancers essentially build their dream web design business, whatever that looks like. If they want to have a small team or they just want to be a solo printer, or if they want to scale, I can help them out with that as well. So, that’s what I’m all about nowadays as a web design coach.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And I’ve got my new co-host, well, Steven’s going to be coming back, I will be telling you more, tribe, soon. Andrew, would you like to quickly introduce yourself?
Andrew Palmer: Sure. I’m Andrew Palmer from bertha.ai and wppluginsplus.com, and I’ve been a co-host on this pilot show before, but I normally appear on the WP-Tonic Friday show, but I’m pleased to be here and it’s a long time I’ve not seen or spoken with Josh, so it’s really good to see him.
Josh Hall: I thought that’s why Andrew was here, he just wanted to chat with me again, I thought that’s what the case was.
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, well, there we go. Before we go into this great interview, we’ve got a message from one of my major sponsors; we’ll be back in a few moments folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. And Castos has given the tribe a great special offer, plus some of the other sponsors, plus some great recommendations of plugins and services that have all been checked over by myself and the panel to get all of that all you have to do is to go to wp-tonic/recommendations, and you’ll find all the goodies there. So, Josh, let’s go straight into it, so give us some background because you’ve run a successful web design agency for a number of years; how did you get into the crazy world, as I classify it, like web design and online development, how did you get into it, Josh?
Josh Hall: Yeah, I thought I was kind of a black sheep, I thought it was very weird how I got into web design, but apparently, it’s pretty normal. I started out as a musician, I was a drummer in a rock band and I was actually a cabinet-maker for a tour bus customizing shop.
Andrew Palmer: I’m sorry, Josh, I have to interrupt you there. You said you were a musician and then you said drummer in the same breath, what happened?
Josh Hall: Yeah, oh, there it is, okay. Yeah. I’m a drummer musician and a divvy guy, so I’m checking all the boxes here. Yeah, we’re the most important…drummers, anywho? Yeah, so I was a drummer in a rock band, we were traveling around and I was a cabinet-maker, long story short, I got laid off with my cabinet-making job in 2009 and I’d always liked art and I always enjoyed drawing. And I decided since I was also in the band that I would dive into Photoshop and then I started designing our t-shirts, our CD artwork, all of our merchandise, and then, I’ll never forget, we were playing at a festival and somebody came up to us and said they loved our artwork, and they asked who did it?
And I said I do. And then they asked, how much would you charge to do ours? So, it was like the light bulb went off and that was my first big light bulb moment that said, wow, I could actually do design and get paid for it and actually do something I like doing. So, that’s what got me into design, and then I worked my way into web design and graphic design at the same time, then eventually web design just took over for me.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s fantastic.
Andrew Palmer: I think that story is great, cabinet-maker; you have to have a certain skill set and a delicacy along with some brute force as well because cabinet making is incredibly hard work, I get that, but you have the design skills and you turn those into merchandising for your band. But we’ve got a friend of the show at Veto Pelek, who’s in a rock band, it seems to be quite common, musicians have gone into the web design world.
Josh Hall: And that’s why I said, I really felt it was an awkward and weird path, but come to find out a decade later, a lot of really professional web designers and awesome creatives come from a musician background or a completely different industry.
Andrew Palmer: Yeah. It’s a creative thing, so what I want to know, and this isn’t one of the questions on there because I didn’t know you were a cabinet-maker before today, to be honest, I’ve read your blogs and everything, I didn’t really focus on that bit. The transition from design to web, do you think that helped you, that you had a creative gene in your body so that you could actually visualize what you were building whilst you were building it if you know what I mean?
Josh Hall: Definitely. I think my experience being a cabinet-maker and being a musician helped me dramatically in web design because it is something that’s creative that you see, but you also have to be really good at planning it. And I think this is where a lot of creative struggle is they can think about the design and stuff and they can do it, but when it comes to strategy and SEO and content and all the other aspects of web design, a lot of creatives struggle with that end of things that I’ve found, which is one reason I’m really passionate about helping people with those other aspects as well.
So, yeah, I think it’s a great point, Andrew, I think being a cabinet-maker taught me, it also taught me about deadlines, I had to build this cabinet by Friday, there were no if, ands, or buts about it, you have to get it done. So, I think both of my previous life experiences helped me in web design for sure.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, that’s great. So, maybe you can give the tribe a couple of insights because you’ve run your agency for quite a while and it was very successful. What are one or two insights that you wished somebody had told you when you were starting off your agency that would’ve helped you a lot if somebody had told them to you?
Josh Hall: I think I felt pressure to do what everyone else was doing early on, and I struggled with imposter syndrome majorly early on and I know every web designer does, but I had colleagues in my local area, I’m in Columbus, Ohio, which is a very, very underrated city in the states as far as our economy, I kind of call us the little Austin because we have a lot of technology companies bustling downtown. And I say that to say, I had some colleagues who had offices downtown and had growing digital agencies, and I felt I should do that, I felt I should have an office downtown, later on as I got going in my career, I became more myself, and I realized I actually don’t want that.
I didn’t want overhead, I didn’t want a team of 12 people, all I wanted was freedom to work from home and to do my projects and to scale and grow at the pace that I felt comfortable with, and it took me a few years to get to that point to understand that. So, I really became the agency that I wanted about six years into my business, which I didn’t scale a huge agency, it was just a small team, it was me and a few subcontractors, but that was perfect. That’s exactly the pace of life that was good for me and for my clients, and that’s how I ended up growing an online community, and then I’m happy to talk about how I segued into teaching from there as well.
Jonathan Denwood: So, a quick follow-through question before the next question. So, I got two things from that, first of all, be mindful of your fixed-costs, having an office and having 12 people, blah, blah, all sounds good, but in the end that’s just fixed-cost and will result in sleepless nights and second, you have to really know what you’re looking to do and find your own path to some extent, not follow other people. Would I be right about that?
Josh Hall: That’s a perfect way, to sum up that little segment, yeah, absolutely.
Jonathan Denwood: Over to you, Andrew.
Andrew Palmer: So, what do you think, you’ve obviously transitioned from an agency, I’m going to ask you and don’t answer yet, but I’m going to ask you whether you’ve actually retained some clients. But what do you think, while you had your agency and while you were transitioning into being the online tutor and guide and mentor and all that kind of stuff for your current audience, what do you think the hardest couple of lessons were both in your agency and while you were transitioning into really what you’re doing now, which is a very transparent, honest teaching kind of situation that you’re in?
You announce how much you earn, I saw on a podcast the other day, which was amazing, lots of these gurus out there, they say, yeah, I earn a six-figure income, you actually tell us what those six figures are because normally it’s between you and the taxman, so what do you think the hardest lessons are and why did you decide to really be quite as transparent as you are?
Josh Hall: Well, so I feel that’s kind of a two-part question, Andrew, I think the first part, as far as the challenges of my agency in growing my small team was moving from a solo printer to a small team and that’s very common, it’s a whole different style of business when it’s all you and everything’s about you to build a small team. Additionally, I really had to kind of reign myself in because with web design, there are so many things you can do; you could do all the things you could do the design, the development, the coding, you could do the copywriting, you could do the SEO.
And then, I was also doing graphic design services for a while too, so I was doing branding and logo, I had 37 services and then I realized I have to reel in what I’m really good at; and I think what I learned to do is to, I know it sounds corny and cheesy, but you do have to find your superpower and you just need to figure out, what are you good at? What do you like doing and what is a big need for your clients? And then just focus on that main thing or just a few main things and make those your primary services.
So, once I did that, that’s what really helped me grow my business and be able to scale, yeah, and then I started teaching and then it’s interesting because the teaching thing came around, actually, it’s so funny that you’re in this interview, Andrew, because the first product I ever sold online in the Divvy community was through your marketplace, Elegant Marketplace, probably what, six, five years ago maybe, four years ago?
Andrew Palmer: Maybe five or six years ago, yeah.
Josh Hall: It had to be 17, yeah, I think 17 is.
Andrew Palmer: You were one of our first vendors. Yeah, it was great.
Josh Hall: Yeah. So, I always had a knack for teaching, I always enjoyed it, I was a part of a local community high school after-school program, here in my local area, for media students who are interested in design and stuff. And I found that I had a knack for teaching kids, but I didn’t necessarily want to just work with one kid at a time, I wanted to teach at scale, so I ended up finding out that the content manager for Elegant Themes, the creators of Divvy, lived here in Columbus, Ohio as well.
So, I just asked, yeah, Nathan, so I asked him for coffee and told him what I was up to, and he was like, dude, Josh, you have a really cool perspective with your clients. And I think at that time I had been doing my business for about seven years, I was already at six figures and starting to scale and he asked if I’d be willing to share some of that on the Elegant Themes’ blog as a blog author. So, I was like, heck yeah, that’s how I got my in with Elegant Themes, and I started writing on that, and then that’s when the teaching bug really bit me, and then I started creating some layouts based on page templates that I created.
And that’s how, Andrew, I ended up getting connected with Elegant Marketplace, and I think you had messaged me and you were like, Josh, have you ever thought about selling this for 10, 20 bucks?
Andrew Palmer: I know, I’m terrible, I’ll just ask anyone to do stuff.
Josh Hall: But it planted the seed for me to realize, wow, I learned, and this was a different phase of my business mindset, I learned that I could show people how to create this, and a lot of people would just do that, they would create it themselves. But there was a whole nother market for people who wanted to save time and would just buy a $10 layout and then one-click install it and then boom, there you go. So, that’s what really changed the game for me going from agency owner to suddenly getting into this world of product creator and teacher.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, that’s fantastic. I have one final question before we go for a mid-break, Josh, bit of a downer, but I think we all learn from our mistakes the most; we probably don’t think that way when they’re happening though. When you were running your agency, what were some of the one or two biggest mistakes that you made that you learned the most from which you could share with the tribe if you are willing to do that?
Josh Hall: Sure. Happy to. Well, let me give you two, I have kind of a funny one and a more serious one. The funny one is when I started my business because I was in the band world, I put everything I did on my first business card, you can actually see this business card, if you want, you can go to joshhall.co.
Andrew Palmer: I know what you’re going to say, I’ve seen it.
Josh Hall: joshhall.co/businesscard. Because I was in the band world, I was also doing drum lessons on the side and I thought it would be a really smart marketing move to have web design, graphic design, and drum lessons all on my business card. So, my first business card, and literally again, you can see this, if you want to see it, joshhall.co/businesscard, it said drum lessons on there, when I started getting real clients who were construction businesses or local businesses, they liked me and they were interested, but they were like, why do you have drum lessons on here?
And then it dawned on me, wow, I need to keep my services to this industry, so I learned that early on, I also, the second part, I think a big blunder that I had early on is I just kept my rates so unreasonably low for way too long. And I know that’s really common, and a lot of my students who I teach nowadays, who are early on, they’re just afraid to charge more and I understand you can start lower, but you really do need to start making sure you raise your rates at your level as quickly as possible. And what I found out was when I bumped up my rates from a thousand dollars on average to 3 or $4,000 for sites on average, the same amount of clients were still paying me.
So, I was kicking myself for two or three years for undervaluing myself, two or three times what I could have earned those first few years, so I guess to sum that up, articulating my services and having services that were way outside of what I should have on my card and in my services, and then just keeping my rates too low. It really did some damage for me early on, but it was, as you said, Jonathan, life and learn, I learned from it, and now I teach people not to do that. No drum lessons on your web design card.
Jonathan Denwood: Well, maybe that’s one of the reasons why they should join you really because on reflection, just to wrap up before we go for our break, Josh. I wasn’t, let’s say I wasn’t because I’ve changed my attitude a little bit, I’m a slow learner though, it’s taken over 10 years, I think joining masterminds and joining a group led by somebody that’s been in your shoes that you are trying to go is a really good idea. Obviously, you have to be a bit careful which one you choose, but that’s like anything in life, isn’t it?
You have to do your due diligence haven’t you, but I think it can really save, and I used to be quite negative about joining such groups but my attitude’s changed. So, I think somebody looking to be a web designer, they probably could get enormous value by joining some of your offerings. So, we’re going to go for our break, we’ll be back in a few moments, we’re going to be delving into a lot of subjects with Josh, it’s been a great interview so far and I’ve got my great co-host with me, Andrew, we’ll be back in a few moments.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back, folks. I want to point something else out; if you want to get the WP-Tonic weekly newsletter, and you should, all you have to do is go to wp-tonic/newsletter, and you’ll be able to sign up for it. And what will you get for signing up? Well, you get editorial from me about anything that’s going on in the world of WordPress and tech, plus the panel’s Friday shows recommendations straight into your inbox. That’s useful, please sign up and join us. So, Josh, what do you think are some of the most important factors for somebody who’s looking to start a web design business in 2022?
I think the landscape over the past couple of years has really changed in quite a dramatic way. I don’t know if you agree with that statement and if you do, what have some of those changes been, and as I said, what are some of the most important factors that somebody should consider when they’re thinking of going down that road? Only small questions, Josh.
Josh Hall: No, I do. I agree, I think it’s changed dramatically. I think, obviously, the pandemic has changed a lot about how businesses do things online, well, first of all, that’s changed the need for online web developers and designers. And this is one reason I’m so passionate about teaching, there is more opportunity now in web design than ever before, and I feel very confident over the next 10 to 20 years plus, the growth for web designers and the need for web designers is going to be off the charts.
Now, that’s really exciting, but it also comes with another challenge, and that is, it kind of goes back to what I talked about earlier, how do I kind of reel myself in and focus on what I want to do? Because again, the problem is, I think nowadays the more specialized you are in one area, the better chances you have of really making a good six-figure income as a web designer or as a small team. If you do everything and you’re not very good at everything, it’s going to be a little tougher to beat your competition or stand out with clients and do a really good job, whereas if you really focus on a handful of things that you’re really good at, I think it’s really going to expedite the journey for a lot of folks.
So I think nowadays the opportunity is bigger than ever, that is huge, I think another part of this, number two here would be to, again, solidify the services that you’re really good at, that you like doing. If SEO is just terrible to you and you hate it, then partner with somebody, don’t do the SEO aspects, or just do the basics and partner with somebody to take the rest of that while you focus on design or client management. The last thing I’ll say too, that I think is really, really important nowadays, is the more personal you can be with clients the better, and not only will this help build the old-fashioned, no like, and trust that all clients want.
What I’ve found is clients nowadays really just want a person to be their web guy or web gal I don’t know when you guys got into web design, but there was this term in the late nineties called webmaster. And I feel that’s kind of coming back around, I really feel there’s a dawn of the webmaster again to where clients are so burned out with digital agencies, and they’re so leery of web designers for whatever reason, rightfully so sometimes. If you can be a trusted web design partner, they’re webmaster, you can literally have a client for life, you could have a client that’s with you for years, and there are all sorts of value you can provide for them to get paid over and over and over again.
The really cool thing about that is if you know your services and you get really good at a few things and you become that trusted person, now, you don’t have to get a new client every week; you can have a couple of dozen clients and make six figures just by really working on the customer relationship with these 20 some clients. That’s one thing I’m really working on with students, and one thing I regret doing is I often worked with one project and then said, okay, nice website, see you later. I wish I would’ve just kept on working with them and kept that relationship going, kept on offering value, and then have recurring services that you can offer because it’s.
Andrew Palmer: But then you have a course on that now, you have a course on recurring income, or you had a course, you put it out quite a while ago. And I think what we’ve all become aware of in the web mastery world if you like, is that if you can host a website, you can do some technical stuff, you can use other white label services to actually run your business for you while you’re down at the beach surfing or on the mountain skiing or just sunning yourself, whatever.
And what I’m interested in knowing about out you and your courses, I’ve been looking at your personal brand, we’ve known each other for years now, but I’ve seen an increase in the polished personal brand of Josh Hall, now that from the stuff that you’ve got on your microphone, you’ve got a little box there, a TV, mic and everything like that from the.
Josh Hall: It’s called a Mic Flag, by the way, I had no idea what this was called, it’s called a Mic Flag.
Andrew Palmer: So, did I, now I do. Thank you for educating this very old man, but the point is where you were saying you become the like, trust and know people, the webmaster people, it’s all about the personal brand as well. So, within just looking at you and looking at your growth as a teacher and a person that is making six figures plus from your courses, one I want to know is how many people have you taught to do the job that they want to do? What’s the feedback that you are getting, do these people come back and want more even on a mentoring or coaching level? And how do you actually personally feel about teaching literally hundreds, maybe even thousands of people how to do what you used to do in product ownership for business?
Josh Hall: I love it. What I’m doing now, basically I created this coaching business as if I were to coach Josh from 10 years ago because I remember very vividly those first few years. I remember all the challenges I had, all the struggles I had and I knew all the courses that I wish I would’ve known about and all the type of stuff I just needed to know to get going in web design fast, that’s what I do now. So, really, I’m coaching myself from 10 years ago, so I think being that I had been in the industry for well over a decade, that really gave me all of the content I need to help people do the same thing, so I love teaching at scale.
The other thing I love about what I’m doing right now is, I love being in a global tribe, I never looked at a world clock until I started teaching people over the world, now, my world clock is the first app on my phone because now I know when, I know that Australia is about to go through a time zone change. I never knew that before, but because I have members in my coaching community, I know when our calls are going to change and it’s really cool, you get to know other cultures, you get to know their personality types, there’s a big difference with how people sell in the UK often versus how we sell in America.
So, it’s pretty fascinating, I absolutely love that, I feel like an uncultured boy from Columbus, Ohio it’s really expanded my mind with people and personality types, so I love that aspect of it. As far as my business model, to your point, Andrew, I realized something that was a big problem for me when I started doing courses; I started creating a suite of web design courses that range from design to beginners courses, to SEO, CSS, and then some business courses, one on maintenance plans as you mentioned, which is recently revamped, it’s a 2.0 version now.
But I had one big problem, I would have students go through them, they would get amazing results, they would share that with me, but then they would disappear and it was no fault of their own, but if you have a one-off program, they just disappear. And unless they were engaged with me on social media, or unless I personally reached out, if they had left me a testimonial or something, I didn’t know, I didn’t know how stuff was going. So, that’s one thing that led me to create a coaching community, a premium community, where people can get personal coaching from me and we can have this awesome online community of web designers.
So, those are the two main aspects of my business now, I have my courses, which are all lifetime access programs that are deep dives into certain topics, and then people can go one course at a time if they want, they can get all my courses in a bundle. And then ideally they join my coaching community for coaching with me and they get into this awesome web design community, and that’s my big passion right now, and that’s what I’m really ramping up here in 2022, is the online community side of things.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I’m going to respond to some of the things you said at the beginning of your answer, Josh, in the bonus content, but I’ve got one final question before we wrap up the podcast part of the show. What are your thoughts about WordPress in general and how it fits in, is it still do you feel the main tool that web designers utilize, or has its position deteriorated with the increase in SAS projects like Squarespace, Duda, and when it comes to eCommerce, Shopify, where do you see WordPress, is it still the core technology for a lot of the people that you’re helping and consulting?
Josh Hall: Yeah, it’s a great question; we were just talking about this last week actually on our weekly Q&A in my community. I think the latest stats, and you guys might know this, I know there are a few different sites that report the stats of WordPress, but isn’t it about in between 40 or 46% latest I’ve heard?
Andrew Palmer: 43% and Elementor is 7.1% of that, just to let you know.
Josh Hall: Okay. So, WordPress is still closing in on half the main sites of the internet, I think WordPress itself is still, yeah, the main tool that most people are using, and I still think it’s going to be that way for a long time. However, over the past, probably two years, I have seen a big influx in people using Squarespace and Shopify and Webflow is also seeming to pick up a lot more traction. Now, what’s interesting about this though is, when I started teaching I was so heavily into the Divvy community that I really didn’t know anybody outside of WordPress and Divvy, and I just stuck right there.
When I launched my podcast, which is more of a broad web design show, I think that’s what really branched me out into the realm of just more web tools, and I have a YouTube channel now that is not Divvy centric, I still have a lot of Divvy tutorials because that’s what I use. Jonathan, I know you love Divvy, so that’s why I create Divvy tutorials for folks like you, but I think I say that to say, now I’m doing content that is just.
Jonathan Denwood: I love it, Josh. It’s paid for my car, my holidays.
Josh Hall: There we go. Yeah. So now, I think I’m branching out into more web design general kind of things, where different tools, it doesn’t really matter, it’s kind of tool-agnostic, however, it’s a good point; we’re joking about Divvy, but there has been a big influx of Elementor users and Oxygen users and different themes, rather than just Divvy, I do see that. I see a lot of my students who are still primarily Divvy, but maybe they’re also using Elementor or a couple of other themes, but I will say, word of warning, the more themes you use in your business, the more tricky things get because you have to keep up with these tools, it can be really costly, if you just use Divvy for all of your client websites, you can have a handful of trusted add-on subscriptions, and you’re generally good to go.
If you’re using Elementor and Oxygen and a few others, you may need a dozen add-ons for all of your different themes and it can get costly and a little dangerous, so I generally say stick with one to two themes for all web designers, just to play it safe.
Andrew Palmer: Yeah. And I agree with you, and I think the Webflow was almost a protest jump from a lot of WordPress people, they just went on to Webflow because let’s face it, it’s a hosted situation, now Elementor is almost going to a hosted situation like Squarespace, Wix, Shopify, all those kind of stuff. Or they’re trying to transition into that to be able to monetize the opportunities that hosting offers you, but I think you’re right, if you stick with one theme, then you’re all good. I know some guys that will only use X theme, that’s it, that’s because they know it inside and out and they can do everything they do. Last question, John, and I’m sorry, we’re going to run overtime on this bit slightly.
Jonathan Denwood: Can you make it quick because I don’t want to.
Andrew Palmer: I’ll make it very quick, and Josh can answer it, it’s a yes or no question. Do you think you will offer courses on anything other than Divvy? I know that you’ve got your WordPress.
Josh Hall: No, as far as technical stuff, I’ll stick with Divvy, but I am doing courses and content that’s just broad-based to where it’s theme agnostic, it’s just more business principles, web design principles that aren’t necessarily to one theme. I just don’t have the time to learn other themes right now.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. We’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show, folks, and hopefully, I think Josh is going to stay on for a little while.
Josh Hall: Yeah, I’m good.
Jonathan Denwood: I’ve got a response about what you said about Divvy and my thoughts and I’ll make Andrew laugh. It’s been a great interview, you can watch the whole interview plus the bonus content on the WP-Tonic YouTube channel, please go over there, watch the bonus content of this great interview and also sign up for the YouTube channel, it really does help the show. So Josh, how can people find out more about you and your great offerings? Josh?
Josh Hall: You can just go to my website at joshhall.co, 95% of my content is free, so I have podcast episodes there, tutorials, master classes you can jump into, and then if anyone has any questions, just contact me, you can go through my contact form. I don’t get that many emails, so I’m always going to give somebody a personal response if they reach out to me, so I’ll be happy to help anybody out.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And Andrew, how can people find out more about some of your thoughts and what you’re up to in the WordPress and Divvy community?
Andrew Palmer: Well, you can get me on Twitter at @arniepalmer and you can find the bertha.ai Facebook group, just search for bertha.ai and you’ll find the Facebook group. And, of course, you can always find me somewhere on a podcast around the web.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. And I just want to say Bertha is one of the most interesting plugin solutions in 2022 and you need to go and have a look at it, I think I’ll be nice to Andrew there. So, there we are, and we’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show, we’ll be back next week, we have some really fantastic guests in the next couple of months. You’re going to be amazed, almost up to the quality of Josh actually, but you’re going to be blown away by some of our guests that have agreed to come on this show, we’ll be back next week, folks. Bye.
Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we really appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind WordPress membership group on Facebook? And if you want to keep up with all the latest news on the podcast, visit wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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