How to Grow Digital Communities in 2022
With Special Guest Jillian Benbow Director of Community Experience SPI Media The Company Behind Pat Flynn
Jillian Benbow is a digital community expert who helps business owners craft a community experience that stands out from all the noise. With over a decade of experience, she knows how to build a community that is safe, valuable, and enjoyable. Jillian hosts the Community Experience podcast and is the Director of Community Experience for SPI Media
This Weeks Main Questions
#1 – Jillian how did you get into the crazy world of online community building?
#2 – Do you feel that it’s getting harder to encourage community engagement online and do you have any insights connected to encouraging engagement?
#3 – What are some of the biggest insights you have learned working with Pat Flynn and the SPI Media team?
#4 – What are some of the challenges connected to producing content for different media platforms like podcasting and YouTube?
#5 – What do you see as the future of independent media and are there any platforms and technologies that get you excited?
#6 – What have been some of your biggest mess-ups which you are comfortable sharing with the tribe that you have learned the most from?
This Week Show’s Sponsors
Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, e-learning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic this week in SaaS, it’s episode 689. Have a great episode. We have a great guest. We have Jillian Benbow, the director of community experience at SPI Media, they’re the people behind Pat Flynn, obviously, you’ve all heard of Pat. I have my great co-host Andrew with me; he’s a little tired because he’s been doing a live event. Andrew, would you like to quickly introduce yourself?
Andrew Palmer: Sure. I’m Andrew from bertha.ai and I’d like co-hosting this thing on a Thursday and it’s a bit late in the UK, it’s 11:00 PM. And, yeah, I’ve been co-hosting the Atarim Web Agency Summit, so we have a few thousand people visiting that today, but I’m glad to join Jillian, it’s great.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, you’ve been doing a great job, Andrew. Before we go into the main part of the interview, we have a couple of great messages from our major sponsors. We’ll be back in a few moments.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I’m a little bit nervous because I don’t know if Jillian’s going to rate me to the same standard as Pat Flynn, so I’m a little bit concerned.
Jillian Benbow: Oh, sheesh, don’t be nervous.
Andrew Palmer: Just get over it.
Jonathan Denwood: Because I don’t think I backtrack Pat’s standards, but I don’t think I do too badly, but there we go. I’m sure Andrew would disagree, so let’s go straight into it. So, Jillian, how did you get into the kind of semi-crazy world of online community-building and podcasting?
Jillian Benbow: Right. Well, thanks for having me. And Pat is a very normal person, so you’re right up there with him, don’t discount yourself. He’s just a normal guy, I promise.
Jonathan Denwood: A podcasting god.
Jillian Benbow: He loves a dad joke, I’ll tell you that. Yeah, so I’ve worked in the digital community for over a decade, I’ve kind of lost track, so well before the pandemic, which is kind of when it’s really picked up in many ways and I got into it totally accidentally. I have a habit of looking, when I’m on a website, I’ll look at their about, and I’ll look at their jobs, and I’m just curious, I’m nosy, essentially. And I was on a website and I was doing that and they had a super part-time contract, entry-level community role, and I was like, well, that’s neat.
And I applied and I got the role and then stayed at that company for years and left it in a senior position, I’d gotten a lot of experience there and kind of just been working, mostly in kind of the tech startup world doing community where it’s been happening for a while. But now, there are so many tools now that any of us can launch a nice community and not have to know how to code. So, now I’m mostly helping other people to do the same, learn how to be community builders, and I love it.
Jonathan Denwood: So, just a quick follow-through question before I throw it over to Andrew. So, your title director of community experience, how do you explain that to people, precisely what you do?
Jillian Benbow: That’s a good question. And a lot of people don’t understand, even after I explain it, they’re like, that’s nice.
Jonathan Denwood: They normally say that after they’ve spoken to me.
Jillian Benbow: Yeah, so I usually explain it as I do. I think more people understand community now, but I don’t really have a good elevator pitch. But I think of community as kind of this, it’s everything, it’s customer support, it is public relations, it’s sales, it’s mitigation in many ways, conflict resolution, it’s everything. So, I usually just explain it as I work for a company that has an online or digital community and I focus on growth and engagement, and lots of people just kind of smile and nod and they’re just like, I don’t know. That’s kind of like a lot of people when they talk about their very tech jobs, I’m like, okay, I don’t get it, but you work in tech. So, I just say I work on the internet.
Andrew Palmer: I absolutely get it because I know Mike Demo, who’s a community manager for Codeable and he used to be the community manager for Joomla as well. Adam Warner, he’s the community manager for GoDaddy, and it’s becoming more and more important to have a person that people in the community can turn to, but they’re not the CEO or the CTO or the CFO or whatever. So, they’re one level removed, if you not. Not down a level, but they can make decisions within the community and they can also push people in the right direction and I think that’s what community management is all about with a nice little glove, a velvet glove with a really firm hand sometimes.
Well, because community people can be a little bit antsy and things have not, trying to deal with Denwood, you’ll get to know, it’s tough work, but you have.
Jonathan Denwood: I think I’m very, I deal with WordPress people, it’s like herding cats, dude
Andrew Palmer: It’s just like herding cats, let me tell you. But what are some of the challenges connected to producing content for different media platforms like podcasting and YouTube with the editing, the getting people to use their microphones properly, and all this kind of stuff? You have some challenges there, so maybe give us an example of one that was too challenging and how you address those kinds of things.
Jillian Benbow: Oh, yeah. So, that’s a good one for me because I’m coming into SPI Media as someone who is, I wouldn’t consider myself a digital entrepreneur, I was coming from a very structured, community role, which to your point, and I’m so glad it’s becoming an actual profession and a career path for people. So, joining SPI and Pat Flynn’s empire of things where he does YouTube, podcasts, all the things, he’s good at all of them. It’s a lot, it’s intimidating, and I think something that people don’t recognize, at least at this point in where SPI Media is as a company, is that we are a company.
So, having a podcast and YouTube and all that, several people are working on it, you know? And so, it’s that phrase, if you don’t compare your start to someone else’s middle, I think about that a lot, even with our community, I have a staff, we have a community team. And so, the kind of content and programming we can produce is different than what someone who’s a solopreneur trying to launch a community can produce, so it’s always like, keep that in mind.
But I would say keeping up with all of it, I think especially when we’re talking about people, not in a team in the sense that we are at SPI, a lot of it is just being comfortable picking the thing you prefer. Because it’s so easy to be like, oh, there’s this new thing, Clubhouse, there are these new things, there’s this new shiny this and that, and so then you feel very spread thin, it’s also expensive. Podcasting is not too bad, I have a Samsung microphone that sounds pretty good and it works for me, it just plugs right in versus then you get to Pat’s level where he has all of these do-dads and special effects and whatnot, but podcasting, the barrier to entry is fairly low and really YouTube too, but it gets very expensive, very fast.
And the skillset and the time it takes for the mastery or outsourcing editing, the cost of that, I’m in a tailspin circle of rambling, but all that to say, I don’t think there’s like, oh, this is the thing, it’s just, what is it that you naturally are drawn to and are comfortable doing and focus on that, right?
Andrew Palmer: Exactly. There’s a chap out there, another English chap, actually, Michael Killing, who does a sales course on various other things and how he runs his business, he is a solopreneur, but he uses videographers to edit out his video, and there was a learning curve with them knowing his style and everything. So, he zooms in and zooms out and there are graphics that appear on screen, and it’s all these guys that do, he chucked it out for the Philippines. I know that my friend who runs FocusWP, she has video editors as well that do, I’ll give them a raw video and they’ll bring it out.
Jonathan Denwood: Well, she never told me. She’s cheating.
Andrew Palmer: Yeah, she does. But Stephanie is a co-host on a Friday show with Jonathan Denwood, but just using the resources that are available to you, when you can afford them that will help you grow your business, grow community, and certainly, I do a couple of voiceovers for Jonathan in the ads and everything. So, it’s kind of, and you can recognize them because I have a very distinctive voice, but the thing is that I’m happy to do them, I do them for other people.
So, if you can get somewhere where you’re comfortable with producing and editing the content that you have, and then maybe just farming it out to someone else when you have too much to do, and your community’s growing and your business is growing, let’s face it, Pat Flynn had to start from somewhere. So, we’ve all learned how to drive, so now some of us are racing drivers, not me because I have an electric car, but so what do you see really as the future of independent media, and are there any platforms and technologies that get you excited now?
Because there’s so much isn’t there and you can fly out there and get the syndrome of Sparky things, oh what do I, oh, that I like that, in our industry, we have AppSumo, people are AppSumo app.
Jillian Benbow: Yes. Oh my gosh, yes.
Andrew Palmer: You know about that, maybe even you, so what are the?
Jillian Benbow: I know.
Andrew Palmer: Where do you see the independent press going or the independent media going and what are the things that distract you really?
Jillian Benbow: That’s a great question given what’s been happening with Twitter the last couple of weeks. I will not go there. But, yeah, well, I will a little bit, I’m a little concerned with where things are going and the idea of who controls what and all of that, but.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, just a quick follow question about that. Especially podcasting, have you got some real focus around podcasting because some of the big players do seem, it’s an open protocol, RSS feed, but there does seem to be a kind of a bit of a land grab about grabbing podcasting and not making it open protocol, really?
Jillian Benbow: What do you mean by that?
Jonathan Denwood: Because most podcasts you can get them through the RSS feed, but I think Archer and I think Spotify, they’re investing a lot of money, but they’re customizing the RSS feed, so you can’t listen to it on other players, and they’re garden walling their content, aren’t they?
Jillian Benbow: Gotcha. Yeah. And that’s interesting, isn’t it? And podcasting I think still is a bit wild west, it’s still, we all get it, we all have podcasts and we listen, I’m assuming, I listen to several podcasts and it’s a big part of my day-to-day, but my husband has never listened to a podcast, it’s just not for him. And I’m like, no, there are shows for you, I know there are, you like sports and there’ll be shows with insider info about sports and sports ball, you know?
And he’s like, I don’t care, I read articles, or he’s like, I read athletes’ Twitter. And so, there’s kind of that, podcasting has so much potential to further reach, but at the same time companies like Spotify companies with funding, they’re going for growth and they’re going for taking over, and so they’re messing with things like a social media company. So, there’s an algorithm or they’re putting paywalls and all that, and so it’s interesting and I don’t know if I really like it, but I also recognize that I have been aware and listening to podcasts since they started, and so I’m used to things a certain way.
It’s kind of like, even think about WordPress, think about back when everybody had a live blog or whatever, we were all blogging on blogging platforms, and then those kind of went away, and then it became easier to do your own website. All of those things, I was mad when the blog feed, I can’t remember what that was called, but you could.
Andrew Palmer: Blogger, was it? Was it Blogger?
Jillian Benbow: Yeah. Well, you could subscribe to people’s blogs, and then all their new posts would just go in your feed, and then whoever had the main one just got rid of it, and that was kind of the end of blogs for a lot of people. And so, it’s like these tools that are meant to help actually sometimes hurt, I guess. If that makes sense.
Andrew Palmer: And Jillian, I think it’s also the growth of website design as well because WordPress was, by Mike Little, the co-founder Mike Little, an English guy, and Matt Mullenweg who obviously, runs Automattic now. They built that on b2/cafe, which was a blogging tool, and then thought that into WordPress, and then that’s what it was because Matt was a mad blogger as was Mike Little and they loved blogging, but they needed something to make it easier. And then WordPress kind of evolved into this platform that other people plugged things into, plugins and themes, and page builders and now we’ve lost.
I had a conversation with a professional blogger the other day and just saying we’ve lost the way to blog, maybe there is another reason now for another Blogger to come along, a total blog platform. We have things like Medium, they allow you to blog, but that’s behind a paywall after four visits, all those kinds of people trying to monetize the conversation and that’s kind of difficult, but I’m very much like your husband, I take part in podcasts, but I don’t listen to podcasts. I listen to audible, I listen to books, I don’t even listen to learning books, I listen to completely off-the-wall books, not horror or anything, but mostly science fiction.
So, I do like to listen, but when you’re a storyteller, you’re obviously a storyteller, that’s why you did blogging and that’s why you got into podcasting because you’re storytelling and you like to tell your story or somebody else’s story. And the problem with pay walling everything is it only goes to a certain audience. One, they can afford to pay for it, and two, they’re kind of either very left or very right or very centrist. So, there are those three niches and they can get a little bit antsy as well, so Spotify had those Joe Ro, what’s his name, Joe. I don’t.
Jillian Benbow: Joe Rogan?
Andrew Palmer: I’ve never listened to his, I listened to one show.
Jonathan Denwood: You don’t know what you’re missing. We need to go for our break. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. Before we go into the second half of this great interview, I just want to tell you about a live show that I’m doing with one of my Friday panelists on Friday with Spencer Forman. We’re talking about how to build funnels, marketing automization, you can see all these goodies by joining us at 10:00 AM Pacific standard time on the funnel show. It’s a laugh, you know how me and Spencer bicker all the time, worse than me and Andrew, but there we go.
Andrew Palmer: But you can actually learn something. When it’s just us, you’re just going to laugh at us and you say.
Jonathan Denwood: We’ve been listening a lot to you, Andrew, if you’re listening to me, but there we go.
Andrew Palmer: Why don’t you get married, that sort of thing. Jillian, over to you. So, I love Jon asking,
Jonathan Denwood: Let’s go on to the next question. So, everybody when they talk about community, they talk about engagement, they’re the kind of two kinds of trigger words, community, engagement; you hear a lot of that. I get the impression, and I feel myself getting real engagements, getting harder. First of all, would you agree with that and if you do, have any insights on why you think it’s getting harder?
Jillian Benbow: Yeah, I do. I do think it is harder and I think part of it is kind of, the pandemic, in particular, seemed to bring a boom of smaller communities, and not to say they didn’t exist before they did, and again, I think a lot of these platforms like Circle, Mighty Networks, you can have a very plug and play community, a white-labeled community without the need to code. I know WordPress has plugins that add community to a WordPress page, these sorts of things it’s become easier.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. It’s BuddyBoss. BuddyBoss is the main thing.
Jillian Benbow: BuddyBoss. Okay. And now everyone wants a community, so now you’re competing to get people in and then also competing to keep them and that is sort of new and it’s good in a way because you can have very niche communities, but there’s also a lot of noise. So, getting someone to discover your community and then join and have everything in place so that they participate because that’s a huge part of it, it’s like they get in the door, now what, you have to have structure and onboarding so that people feel welcome.
And you have to think about how that scales as well. There’s a lot that I think people don’t always think about with that, but because there’s more competition, and then also look at what’s trending on social media, TikTok, Instagram Reels, it’s shorter attention span, shorter and shorter nuggets of entertainment or content. And so, I’ve even noticed myself, I’m ready. I’m like; okay, next thing, and so having to pull people back in and be like, no, we’re going to have conversations. All of that. I think that’s a big thing, and so I think it’s valid that engagement is getting more challenging.
I also think because depending on where you are in the world, you may be able to travel again for the first time in a couple of years, it’s like the roaring twenties, all of a sudden, everybody wants to get out and travel and do things. And so, then there’s also an added competition of the outside world because we were all stuck in our for a couple of years and the internet was a great place to go. And so, there’s also just the competition of finding the balance of people coming back to your community and still using it and not just leaving because maybe they have a little more liberty from a health risk standpoint.
Jonathan Denwood: So, when it comes to Pat’s show, what are some of the things that have worked really lately encouraging more engagement and community?
Jillian Benbow: I think Pat in particular is a bit of an anomaly because he has such a strong audience base to begin with, he’s been doing it for a really long time, and what you get with him. But an example, I think of him continuing to show that he knows what he’s doing and that he’s worth following is, I don’t know if you’re familiar with his side project he’s been doing, which is this Pokemon YouTube channel, which keep in mind, it’s on YouTube, it’s not a podcast.
Jonathan Denwood: I listen to a lot of Pat, but I haven’t been induced to go to that actually.
Jillian Benbow: Well, it’s one of those things. Some people are really into Pokemon and the trading cards have a huge resurgence and he’s just really good at seeing an opportunity for something, and he took a skillset that he had, which is YouTube and live streaming and all of that. And then he took something he knows, he’s into that, he was one of those people as a kid that collected Pokemon cards. This is like, I still don’t really get it, I’m like Pokemon cards, I didn’t even know that was a thing, I thought it was a game you played on your phone, I’m totally out of the loop with it.
But he took something that was really big for him as a kid, and so he’s in that group of people and then he just became a leader, and not overnight, he worked hard at it, but he understands the formula, I guess. So, Pat’s very much an anomaly with this stuff, I think you could give Pat, draw paper out of a hat to be like, you’re going to start a business about this and your primary audience connection tool will be that and he’d make it work.
Andrew Palmer: Well, that’s a talent to have, but I get the Pokemon cards, we used to at school, I’m old enough to, to remember cigarette cards, right?
Jillian Benbow: Oh, I didn’t know it was a collectible.
Andrew Palmer: It was a collectible, but it wasn’t me smoking, it was my parents smoking. We used to collect.
Jonathan Denwood: Bit like me, I’m a collectible.
Andrew Palmer: Oh, no. And we got those cards and we’ve had them for years and when you have the, I remember my daughter, who’s only 19 now, she collects things and watches YouTube continually, I said, do you ever turn that phone off? No wonder your phone only last seven months over time, not because you’ve dropped it, it’s because it’s just melted. But that’s the thing about engagement, the YouTubers, the TikTokers, the people that have grabbed hold of this concept of the, actually people have a 30 second or a three-minute time span in their head that they have to do this while they’re making a cup of tea.
So, I need to make my cooking recipe, I need to fast forward and this is how you make a pie, or this is how to make spaghetti bolognese, this is how you draw a rabbit out of a hat, all these kinds of things. And there was one guy that during the pandemic, he was a child entertainer and he used to do balloon animals.
Jillian Benbow: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Palmer: So, he was in trouble because he couldn’t go to children’s houses or houses and do his demonstrations. He’s making a fortune online teaching people how to do balloon animals, which you guess, he made $4 million in his first month, so it’s the niching down, it’s the getting that right thing, that laser-focused stuff, and that’s what Pat’s good at. And that’s what I think if you’re in the podcasting world or in the educational world, I think you need to be laser-focused and really niche down and just educate your audience. Jon?
Jillian Benbow: Stick with it.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. And we’re coming to the end, I have one more question, and we’re coming to the end of the podcast part of the show. Hopefully, Jillian will be able to stay with us for some bonus content. My last question of the podcast, if you’re prepared to share it with us.
Andrew Palmer: What’s your phone number?
Jillian Benbow: What’s your credit card number?
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. We all learn from our mistakes and our cock-ups, when we’re making them we don’t actually think that way, but if you don’t mind sharing, what’s been one or two of your biggest cock-ups, and what did you learn from it?
Jillian Benbow: How much time do you have?
Andrew Palmer: I’m with you?
Jillian Benbow: Right? They’re all learning experiences and I am very experienced. This question is so good and I think it’s so valuable for people to talk about because everything’s all the shiny, very social media edited version of reality and, especially with business and things like that. Everybody makes mistakes and shit happens, sorry, I don’t know if I’m, I don’t know-how.
Andrew Palmer: No, it’s fine. We are NSFW. Don’t worry about it.
Jillian Benbow: Excellent. Excellent. Because I must have been a sailor in a previous life because I can just go. So, I’ll try to reign it in, but I think it’s important for us all to be real about that stuff because it does happen, Pat has his own examples. But anyway, so that being said, and this is very specific to the community, I think it’s still a valuable lesson. Especially early on when I was doing community management and it’s very much like you, a big part of the job is forming relationships with people who come to the community because you should be that trusted place that they know they can go for help, but you’re also the one providing programming or if there’s a fight, you’re intervening and it’s this, you’re balanced.
It’s not a good analogy or visual, but it’s kind of like you have one foot on the customer side of how things work, your other foot’s on the company side, be that your own company, your own brand, or like me in this situation, a big tech company. And so, you’re always kind of in the middle trying to find that middle ground of representing the customer, that’s me on my boat, representing the customer to the company, to advocate for what they’re saying, what what’s going on there. And then vice versa, you’re having to distill information from the company to the community and sometimes it’s good and sometimes it’s bad and whatever.
So, you’re kind of in this funny place, and I think a huge mistake I made early on and I definitely had to learn a lesson from, and it’s really served me since, it was worth it in the end, is not holding a strong enough boundary with my relationships with community members. And so, getting maybe too close, getting a little too friendly with people and then something happening that they didn’t like, or that they were involved in something negative.
And then me having to do my job and them getting incredibly mad and creating a lot of problems that were a hundred percent preventable had I recognized how important it is in my role to really respect keeping my role, holding it back sometimes.
Jonathan Denwood: It is tricky, isn’t it? Because I think what you’re talking about is a bit like a doctor, you want a doctor that’s empathic, that does care you don’t want some sociopath as your doctor. But on the other hand, you don’t really want a doctor that gets so involved that they can’t really function or do their job properly. So, it’s a bit of a balance, isn’t it?
Andrew Palmer: It is. And I’ve had an experience of that; I ran a big Facebook group, 30,000 people, grew it to 30,000 people, with others, not just on my own. And some people didn’t like me so much that they set up another Facebook group just against me and my business. So, I’ve been there and I know what it’s like because you get too friendly with people, and you do have to have that boundary of, it’s a glass ceiling really, it’s a glass window, you have to stay behind that window, represent your company properly.
But also, as you said, advocate and mediate for your community, and that’s a whole part of being a community manager is that you have to see the other side, you have to be two-faced, if you like, in the nicest possible way. So, let’s see if you’ll put the issues and the technical issues and the profitability of your company, but you have to balance against that, the needs and the wants of your community and that’s why I lord you, you’re brilliant to be a community manager, it’s a very, very difficult job.
Jonathan Denwood: It’ll be tactful. It’ll be very tactful, something which I’m lacking, isn’t it, Andrew? I could be tactful.
Andrew Palmer: You’re not there yet.
Jonathan Denwood: Actually, I could be very tactful when I want to be.
Andrew Palmer: Yeah really?
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, I can actually, Andrew. So, we’re going to finish off the podcast of the show, and please join us for the bonus part of this interview, you can listen to the whole interview plus the bonus content. If you go to the WP-Tonic YouTube channel, we have loads of videos plus our live shows, there’s a load of content over there. Please go over there and subscribe, it does really help the show. So, Jillian, how can people find out more about you and what you’re up to?
Jillian Benbow: Yeah, for sure. So, I have my own little sad website. This is jillianbenbow.com.
Jonathan Denwood: No, it’s lovely. It’s lovely.
Jillian Benbow: It’s Jillian with a J, which I know, I don’t know how much of your audience is in Europe, but usually it’s a G, I know that but mine’s a J. So, jillianbenbow.com and not too much over there, pretty basic, but if you want to learn more about the community I run for Pat, it’s spipro.com. It is a paid entrepreneurial community, but if you’re just curious, you can read about it on that page and, yeah, it’s a fun sales page, go check it out.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I really enjoyed the interview, hopefully, you agree to come back later in the year. So, Andrew, how can people find out more about you and your thoughts?
Andrew Palmer: Well, you can get me on thisisandrewpalmer.com, pretty narcissistic name, but I love it and bertha.ai, I receive WordPress.
Jonathan Denwood: Never.
Andrew Palmer: Are you going to let me tell people about me or not? Shush. So, thisisandrewpalmer.com and, of course, bertha.ai, the WordPress copyrighting AI built specifically for WordPress right where you work.
Jonathan Denwood: He has had a stressful day, he’s been helping run a live event, it’s very stressful actually. We will be back next week with another fabulous guest, I’m not sure they’re going to be good as good as Jillian, but there we go. We’ll be back soon, folks. See you soon. Bye.
Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we really do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group and also to keep up with the latest news, click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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