It’s All About Positioning Baby.
April Dunford is the world’s leading expert on product positioning. She has worked with over 200 fast-growing technology companies to accelerate their growth through clear, compelling positioning. Previously April has run marketing and product teams at a series of seven successful technology startups. She is also a board member, investor, and advisor to many high-growth businesses. She is the author of the bestselling book Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning, so Customers Get it, Buy it, Love it.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/
Main Questions of the Interview
#1 – April, how did you get into the semi-crazy world of technology and startups?
#2 – I’ve learned that positioning your product, service, or plugin correctly is all-important; got any quick insights/tips on how to achieve this?
#3 – I think you really got to be prepared to pivot great quickly when it comes to positioning; what are your thought about this?
#4 – What are some basic mistakes you see people making on a semi-regular basis for product positioning?
#5 – Are there any processes or mythologies that you can share with the listeners that you feel can help in the process of successful product positioning?
#6 – Is there one particular semi-big mistake you have made in business that you feel you can share with the audience from which you have learned a lot?
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Episode Transcript
Length: 32:47
(00:00)
Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, eLearning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.
(00:14)
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic Show this week in WordPress and SaaS, we have a really great guest, I’ve been following her YouTube and everything that she puts online. She’s a lady, she’s a person with great experience when it comes to product positioning, well, I think she’s the expert on that. We have April Dunford with us. So, April, would you like to quickly give yourself an introduction to the tribe?
(00:48)
April Dunford: Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on. So, my background is, I spent the first 25 years of my career as a repeat vice president of marketing at a series of startups, I think all in, I did seven of those. And then about five or six years ago, I made the switch to consulting, and now what I do is I work with mainly growth-stage tech companies. And my focus is very specifically on positioning, so there are a lot of things I don’t do and all I do is positioning work.
(01:25)
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, I’ve learned the hard way, April; it’s all about the positioning. So, Andrew, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the tribe?
(01:34)
Andrew Palmer: Sure. I’m Andrew Palmer from Bertha.ai, which is an artificial intelligence writing machine based on WordPress, so you can write where you work. That’s it.
(01:46)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. Before we go into the main part of this great interview, we have a couple of messages from our great main sponsors. We’ll be back in a few moments,
(01:57)
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(02:52)
Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. We have some great offers from our sponsors, plus we have some great recommendations on plugins and services for running your agency or your startup. To get all these goodies go over to wp-tonic/recommendations. So, April, obviously, as a lady, how did you get into the world of tech originally? What was the way that you got into this crazy world of technology and startups?
(03:26)
April Dunford: Yeah, well, I guess I came into tech in a fairly straightforward manner. I studied systems design engineering at university, when I finished I got a job at a startup and that’s how it went. It’s probably a bit more surprising that I ended up in marketing because that wasn’t the plan at the beginning and I certainly wasn’t dreaming of that while I was studying mechanics of deformable solids in the first year of university. But I landed a job straight out of university and specifically what I was doing was product marketing.
So, the job required a fairly deep knowledge of the tech that we were selling, which at the time it was a database, and so I needed to understand structured query language and database stuff, so the requirements of the job were, I needed to know something about databases and I needed to be not afraid of public speaking. And so, I had all those things, so I got the job and then that company got acquired by a big database company in Silicon Valley, and then shortly after that my boss quit and that’s how I ended up running marketing teams, it was a bit by accident.
But then after I had run that team for a few years, I decided this is my jam, this is what I do now, and so I just did that for the next 25 years. And that’s how it happened.
(04:52)
Jonathan Denwood: And just a quick follow-through question, when did your obsession and your great insights around positioning a market product and service positioning, where did that obsession start to come from, April?
(05:08)
April Dunford: Yeah. So, interestingly, right out of the gate. So, in my first job that I had at a startup, I was working on a product that was a failure essentially, so it was originally positioned as desktop productivity software, and the way we had envisioned it, was it would be an alternative to a spreadsheet. And at the time a lot of people were using something called Microsoft Access, which was a little windows database-ish thing, but how ours was different was it was like a spreadsheet or like Access, but it also, you could write structured query language, SQL queries in it.
So, we envisioned it as a souped-up spreadsheet, so we sold it off the website for a hundred dollars, a pop, and anybody that wanted to buy it, could buy it, so we launched the thing and it was incredibly not successful. I think we sold 300 copies or 200 copies of it, a lot of people were curious about it and they bought it and they played with it for a day and then they never came back to it. And so, what happened was we were going to just end of life the product, but before we did that, we spent a lot of time talking to customers about what were they doing with it?
And we did discover a use case that a very small number of customers had where they were essentially using it as an embeddable database on a mobile device. And so, what they did was they wrote some syncing language so that the folks in the field could use this database out in the field, and then when they came back in the office, it would sync with their big Oracle or Sybase database in the office. And only we could do that because of this SQL query stuff. So, what we did was we repositioned the product in that way, so instead of it being desktop productivity software, we repositioned it as an embeddable database for mobile devices and the thing took off.
And so, all of a sudden we’re making all kinds of money, then we got acquired, the new company is a big database company, they gave us a bigger marketing budget and we made even more money and the next thing we knew, we were the growth engine of this bigger company. And so, that kind of opened my eyes to the idea of wow, a shift in positioning can really result in a big change in the fortunes of a product and potentially an entire company.
So, after I got put in charge of the marketing department for this division, we had a handful of other products there and I thought some of those, the positioning did not look so good and I thought, well, maybe we could do it just like we did it with this other product. But when we had repositioned it, we kind of didn’t know what we were doing, we sort of just messed around until we got something that was good. And I thought, well, I didn’t study marketing, I’m not doing this right, there must be a way to do this, I’ll just go figure out how the real marketers do it.
So, I read a bunch of books, I took a bunch of classes, I had deep conversations over coffee with all the vice presidents of marketing that would talk to me. And what I discovered is that we kind of didn’t have a real methodology for doing positioning, there was a thing that people used called a positioning statement, which was this kind of fill in the blanks exercise where you would kind of write down what your positioning was. But what it didn’t do is it didn’t give me any clues, whether the positioning was good or not.
And so, at that point, I sort of became obsessed with this idea of, well, how do we do positioning? There must be a way where we could sort of out of the gate, get this positioning better and not have to just monkey around with it for two or three years and figure out how to do it. So, that’s how the whole positioning thing got started with me.
(09:14)
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, that’s great. Over to you, Andrew.
(09:17)
Andrew Palmer: Well, I think what it is positioning, the tips that you’ve already given, you’ve probably answered the third question or the second question that we were going to ask anyway, but the tips that you’ve given are almost reverse engineering your positioning by throwing a product out there, finding out the people are using only one aspect of it or changed the way that you thought they were going to use it. And then you’ve managed to pivot and say, right, this is actually a location-based mobile device thing that you can go back and write to your SAP or your Oracle DB and do whatever.
But it’s still about getting the avatar right, it’s still about getting the customer requirements right, and so when you launch a product, do you actually think, you know what, we can launch this and then find out what the positioning is all about?
(10:08)
April Dunford: Well, I think you can do it, but you’re going to have to rely on a good dollop of luck if that’s the way you’re doing it. So, I think sometimes you get lucky and it works out. Most of the time, I think this is what happens. I think that what you have at the beginning is what I would call a positioning thesis. So, if you’ve gone out and you’ve done good customer discovery before you’ve built your product, you have a thesis, and whether you are conscious of that or not, and a lot of companies, I think aren’t doing this on purpose and they maybe aren’t conscious of the thesis.
But what the thesis says is the thesis says, look, here’s who I think we compete with, this is the capabilities we have that the competitor doesn’t have, this is the value only my product can deliver, these are the kind of people that are going to love that so they’re my best fit customer and this is the market we’re going to win. Now, what typically happens is, when we get the thing out there and the thesis, if we’ve done our homework well, the thesis isn’t completely wrong, but it’s often wrong enough. A little bit wrong.
And so, later what we have to do is we have to take a step back once we’ve had the first wave of customers, take a step back and say, what proved to be correct about our thesis and what didn’t and how can we tighten the positioning up? At this point, I think you really need a positioning process or a way to go through an exercise to kind of validate whether your positioning is good or not. And so, a lot of my work is really focused on that, if you think the positioning could be better, how do we actually improve it? What’s the methodology we should use to get to some better positioning?
(11:58)
Andrew Palmer: And I think you’re right actually, in the WordPress world and the tech world that we’re involved in here, there are a lot of plugins, there are a lot of extensions, there are a lot of themes and designs out there and people don’t, they kind of think, okay, this is a good idea. And they don’t test that market, they don’t test the product or even have any kind of idea who’s going to use it, they just think it’s similar to another product and things like that, similarly, with learning management systems, we have those many learning management systems out there.
(12:26)
April Dunford: So many.
(12:26)
Andrew Palmer: But what is best for your particular use case? And I think that if we all examined that first and did that thesis, you’ve given me a great idea for me to progress on what I’m doing. If we did that thesis, we would have a better idea, one, about pricing, two, about positioning that pricing, and who really would want to use our product. So, that’s great. Over to you, Jon. That’s great.
(12:50)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. So, you talked about pivoting and I listened to all your YouTube interviews and I think you talked about, there was one kind of product and you went to see a VC, and the VC said they were using it and you realized that was the pivot you had to do. I wish I could remember some more, but I have a memory like a sieve, April. Unfortunately. So, have any insights about pivoting? Because when should you just, a lot of people give up too early, but on the other hand, you have to know when you’re flogging a dead horse, to use the metaphor.
(13:34)
April Dunford: Right?
(13:35)
Jonathan Denwood: Have any insight about when you make that decision?
(13:38)
April Dunford: Well, again, I think sometimes it’s hard to tell, people will say, for a while in startups, people tried to have a metric on this, and so they would say, look you have product-market fit, if you do this survey and you ask all the customers you have, how disappointed would you be if this thing went away? And if more than a certain percentage of the people said, oh, I would be very, very disappointed. Well, then at that point you say you have product-market fit.
Now, I have a big problem with this, because if I take the first example that I told you about where we thought we were an embeddable database for mobile devices, if I had done that survey, what I would’ve found is out of 200 customers, only six of them liked me and I would’ve canned the whole thing and said, nope, this is no good. But what was really interesting is when I dug down into the six that we’re very happy, then we took a step back and said, well, could we just run at that? And how big is that market? And could we actually do just that?
And would that be a big business? And the answer to all those questions was, yeah, actually we could run at that and that would be a big business. So, I don’t think it matters so much if there’s a whole bunch of people that try your thing and they don’t think it’s very good. I think what matters a lot more is are there a percentage of your customer base that is insanely happy, that loves your stuff, that thinks it’s super valuable, and can I actually position around that and turn that into a business? Are there enough of those people around that would pay for this thing that if I positioned it just as that, would that be a good thing?
So, that’s the first thing. The second thing is, sometimes what we have is, we have a thing that’s selling just fine and everything’s good, but then the market changes, so we have essentially great positioning, often this happens by accident. We had a good idea, we launched it into the market, everybody loves it, the thing is selling great, we’re all happy. And then what happens? Oh, we have some copycat competitors jump into the market too. Or maybe a big competitor that wasn’t in the market, all of a sudden they do an acquisition or something and they’re in and, oh, boy, now we have trouble.
Or something terrible happens like a global pandemic and all of a sudden people just aren’t buying things the same way they used to, and now I’m going to have to shift. And so, often the question is, well, how do I know if my positioning’s broken or not? Maybe what’s wrong is the market or other things. And again, I think we need to have a methodology to back up and test it. And so, in my work, what I’m really focused on is, it’s not a bad idea to go back and check in on the positioning, whether you think it’s good or not.
So, we could actually just run through the exercise and say, well, whether we think it’s good or not, let’s just validate that, so why don’t we get the team together in a room and work through, okay, well, first of all, what do we have to beat in order to win a deal? So, what are the alternatives to what I do? And then what do we have that the alternatives don’t have? That’s my differentiated capabilities. And then if I go down those capabilities one by one, and for each one say, well, so what? Why does a customer care about that stuff? What is the value that capability enables for my buyers?
And then if I look for the themes of that, I should be able to come out with two or three value themes, this is the differentiated value, this is what I could do for a customer that no one else can. And then you say, well, okay, I can do that. Not everybody cares about that and who does and why, so what are the characteristics of a target customer that makes them really care about that value? If I go through that exercise and then I lean back and say, well, did I just define a big market there or am I saying there are five people on the planet that actually care about that value and we’re in trouble here?
(18:05)
Jonathan Denwood: Sorry, Andrew, we need to go for our break anxiously.
(18:07)
Andrew Palmer: Okay, go to the break, I really must ask that question.
(18:09)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, sure. Ask it when you come back. We’re going to go for our break, folks. We’ll be back in a few moments.
(18:17)
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(19:08)
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(19:38)
Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. And I write a great newsletter, it’s based on the Friday show, the outrageous Friday show. I write a great editorial based on the show, to get this great newsletter and get my fantastic thoughts, tribe, into your inbox. How do you get that? You go to wp-tonic/ newsletter and sign up for the WP-Tonic newsletter. Over to you, Andrew.
(20:06)
Andrew Palmer: Thanks, Jon. April, it still seems to me that you’re surveying or surveying clients and asking a few questions and I had a colleague that did this before he launched a particular plugin and sent out a survey to 500 website owners and said, where are your bottlenecks on getting content in. And then based on the answers from there decided to develop the product and it’s flying along there. So, are you saying position, get into a boardroom or get into a meeting with your guys, decide what you think is right, and then go with that and then ask questions of your customers? Are you saying that customer opinion drives you on this as well?
(20:54)
April Dunford: Well, so here’s the thing, and this is where it intersects with customer stuff. So, for a lot of the work that I do, the companies that I’m working with have salespeople. So, if I have marketing sales product, the executives in the room together, and I say, look, what would a customer do if we didn’t exist? If I have salespeople in the room, I know the answer to that question, because your salespeople know because they’ll say, well, what are you using now? Or are you looking at anything else? So, they’ll know.
Now, if I don’t have salespeople, then I need to go get the answer to that. And so, back when I was a VP of marketing, if I had a new job at a company and I was trying to figure out, did we really understand the way customers buy? If I had a sales team, I could go talk to the salespeople and be like, what’s the status quo in the account typically, what are we replacing? And then when folks go to look at my stuff, do they look at anything else? And what else ends up on the shortlist? Now, if I don’t have a sales team, I’m going to have to actually go to the customers and get that directly.
(22:00)
Andrew Palmer: Sure.
(22:00)
April Dunford: Because otherwise, I don’t know what I’m positioning against. I can guess at it, but I’m often wrong. And so, if I came into the company, there was no sales team, then we would actually need to go out and do customer research and how we would do that is the first thing we would do is we would not treat all the customers the same because we have good fit customers and bad fit customers. And occasionally a customer that’s actually a really bad fit for our product; buys our product. They’re not happy with it they’re likely to churn, but I actually don’t care that much about what those companies think.
What I really want to know is good fit prospects. What are they like? What do they do? And so, usually what I would do is, the first thing I would do is I would take some kind of a measure of customer happiness, because if it’s a bad fit customer, they tend to not be very happy. Usually, I would do a net promoter score, it’s easy to administer, it’s not perfect, but it’s not a bad gauge of how happy is the customer, so I’d net promoter score everybody. Then I would skim off the happiest ones, here are my happiest set of customers here.
And then I would try and get as many of those as I could on the phone and I would interview them. And the interview would go like this, I’d say, alright. Tell me about, take me back to before you had our product, what were you doing? You had that problem before we showed up, what were you doing to solve that problem? What did that look like? Because we have to beat that in order to get a customer to adopt our stuff, so I need to know what that is. Were they doing stuff manually? Were they using another product? Were they using some other thing that wasn’t really built for that, how are they solving the problem?
And then the next thing I want to understand is, well, what happened? One day you woke up and you decided I can’t keep doing it this way. What happened? Was it growth? Did you hit a certain size and then everything broke? Or was it, that you adopted some other piece of software and now this thing is really annoying? Was it you hired a new person and the new person said, oh, why are you doing it that way? But I need to know, what was the decision point that made you say, okay, we have to go look for something else.
And then you went and looked for something else. How’d you do that? What were you looking for? What were the criteria you used to look at and who else ended up on your shortlist? Sometimes it’s just a couple of things. Sometimes they just found you and bought you and thought that was good. But often a customer will say, well, I kind of narrowed it down to these three things. You want to know what those three things are, because again, you have to beat those to win the deal as well. And then the customer picked you. So, I want to know, well, why’d you pick us, and then importantly, why’d you not pick the other things?
(24:51)
Andrew Palmer: For sure.
(24:51)
April Dunford: So, this is a little bit different than an interview you would have with a customer if you were trying to figure out what to build next and you’d be like, well, what do you use us for and what do you love and what you don’t love? This is actually an interview all about the purchase process. What did they have before? What made them think they had to go buy something? What were their criteria? How’d they make a list? Who’s on the list and why’d we win? That’ll actually teach you a lot about what your positioning needs to look like.
(25:19)
Andrew Palmer: Sure. And asking them which features they use the most, maybe that would give you some insight of what to develop on and things like that, maybe.
(25:27)
April Dunford: Maybe, but the thing I’ll caution you on is when you go in and you ask about that, sometimes customers don’t actually know what they want. And so, sometimes there’ll be a feature that everyone loves, but they only love it once they’re using the product, but it never comes up in purchase criteria. So, it’s very important for you for retention, but it doesn’t necessarily get a new customer in the door. I hear this a lot with companies, they’ll go to their customers and they talk to them and the customers say, you know what I love the best about you? Support.
You guys care a lot, you answer the phone right away, we love your support. And that’s great for retention; it doesn’t get a single person in the door.
(26:11)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah. Gotcha.
(26:11)
April Dunford: Because nobody experiences your support.
(26:13)
Andrew Palmer: Great advice. Yeah. Great advice.
(26:14)
April Dunford: So, you have to be a little bit careful about having a division in your mind between acquisition features and retention features, both are important, but from a positioning perspective, if what I’m focused on is getting new people in the door, then my positioning needs to really orient around the differentiated value I can demonstrate that people care about when they’re in the buying phase.
(26:41)
Andrew Palmer: Gotcha. Jonathan?
(26:43)
Jonathan Denwood: So, our last question before we wrap up the podcast, but we’re going to have some bonus content afterward. April’s been very kind to say that she’ll stay on with us for a little while. So, the last question on the podcast. What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made in positioning that comes to mind? We all like to celebrate our successes, but the truth is, April, I feel is that in reality, we learn the most from our mistakes and cockups and we tend to remember those. I don’t know if you’re going to be gracious and share, what are your biggest cockups, and then what you learned from them?
(27:24)
April Dunford: Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you in general, thinking about positioning work, there are two big mistakes that everybody makes. So, the first one is the mistake that we made in my first company was we just didn’t think about positioning at all. We just didn’t think about it. We built a thing, we thought it looked good, we talked to some customers beforehand, we’re like, Hey, if we build this thing, would you like it? Everybody said, yeah. And then we built it, then we launched it and nobody bought it.
So, that’s the most common one, because we’re just not thinking about positioning at all, that’s the most common mistake. At least we’re not thinking about it in a deliberate way. The second most common one is when we’re thinking about what we position against or competitive alternatives. And so, typically when we think about what do we have to position against, we’re thinking about direct competitors only. So, whoever we lost the last deal to is generally who we think about. But when we’re selling to businesses the interesting statistic is that 40% of B2B purchase processes end in no decision.
So, in general, if we’re selling to businesses, we lose the majority of our deals that we lose, we lose to no-decision. What that actually means is we lost against the spreadsheet or we lost against the intern or we lost against, no, I’ll just make, do with the built-in feature of the thing that I have that doesn’t really do a very good job and your thing is obviously better, but I’m just going to stick with this because it’s easy. And if we don’t really understand what we’re trying to compete with, then we’ll do a bad job of positioning it.
Every day I’ll get the startups to come to me and I’ll say who’s your competition and they’ll list all these companies, little companies nobody’s ever heard of. And I’ll say, well, how do you beat them? And they’ll say, ease of use, those things take 59 clicks to do and with us, you only have to do two clicks so it’s way more efficient, way easier to use, that’s why people buy us. And I say, well, do you ever lose against these guys because I’ve never heard of any of them? Do you actually lose deals and they’ll say, no, actually we don’t lose many deals to them, we get in a deal against them, we win.
And I said, well, who do you lose to? And they’ll say, oh, we lose to no-decision. Ah, so if you lose to no decision, how are they solving the problem? And they’ll say, oh, they’re getting an intern to do it. Oh, getting the intern to do it. Well, if there you are, you’re positioning is ease of use, well; your real competition is the intern. Are you going to beat the intern on ease of use? No, of course not. The intern’s super easy to use. You’re like, fill in the spreadsheet; come back when you’re done. The intern’s really easy to use. So, if I don’t see the intern as competition, then maybe my positioning is weak because of that.
(30:35)
Andrew Palmer: Right.
(30:35)
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, that’s great.
(30:36)
April Dunford: So, I would say that’s kind of the big thing.
(30:39)
Jonathan Denwood: Fantastic answer. I really love that. April, how can people find out more about you and your great insights and knowledge, April?
(30:49)
April Dunford: Well, a couple of things. So, if you just want to learn more about positioning or think about positioning, I wrote a book, it’s called ‘Obviously, Awesome’. And I think that’s a good starting point if you just want to get some good.
(31:05)
Jonathan Denwood: Is it on, sorry to interrupt, April. Is it on audiobook?
(31:10)
April Dunford: Yeah, you can. Yeah. There’s an ebook. There’s an audiobook, you get.
(31:13)
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, great, because I have a bit of dyslexia so I tend to listen to.
(31:16)
April Dunford: Oh, you’re not the only one. And so, yeah, there’s an audiobook and you get four hours of my excellent Canadian accent narrating it.
(31:24)
Jonathan Denwood: Love Canadians, April.
(31:25)
Andrew Palmer: I never would’ve guessed that you were Canadian.
(31:27)
April Dunford: Thank you.
(31:28)
Andrew Palmer: That’s okay.
(31:28)
April Dunford: So, that’s a good place to start. Some folks from there, if they want to do a course on this stuff, I don’t do a course personally, but I am working with a company called Section4, and so I’m teaching a course with them and that’s a little bit deeper, two weeks of intensive stuff. But otherwise, if you want to work with me directly, my website is aprildunford.com and you can find out about what I do there.
(31:52)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And Andrew, how can people find out more about your product and about you, Andrew?
(31:58)
Andrew Palmer: Well, you can go to Bertha.ai and sign up for the free version because it’s all free, a thousand words a month. It’s pretty cool. And you can find me on Twitter at Arnie Palmer.
(32:10)
Jonathan Denwood: Thanks, Andrew. And, as I said, April’s going to be staying on with us, you can watch the whole interview, the podcast part, and the bonus content by going to the WP-Tonic YouTube channel and watching it all there. We’ll be back next week with another fabulous guest like April. We’ll be back soon, tribe. See you soon. Bye.
(32:32)
Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we really do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group and also to keep up with the latest news click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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