How to Successfully Rank And Digital Market Your Website in 2022

Ryan Stewart is a marketing entrepreneur who specializes in customer acquisition through cross-channel marketing campaigns. He’s helped clients like Target, Best Buy, and Jeeter improve their online visibility while growing his own businesses to 8 figures in revenue.

Show’s Main Questions

#1 – Ryan, how did you get into the world of online marketing and SEO?

#2 – Ryan, what are the main differences between the traditional SEO module and the concept of an SEO Sprint?

#3 – What is your opinion? What have been some of the biggest changes you have seen in the world of SEO over the last 18 months?

#4 – When a design or development agency is looking for an SEO agency to work with connections to a client’s needs, what are some of the major things an agency needs to understand if the business relationship is going to be a successful one does the agency need to understand.

#5 – You have sold several successful online service-based businesses; what lessons have you learned connected to selling these businesses that you are happy to share with the audience?

#6 – I wonder if you like to share one of your biggest SEO mistakes with the audience and what you learned from this mistake?

This Week Show’s Sponsors

Castos: Castos

BlogVault: BlogVault

LaunchFlows: LaunchFlows Focuswp

Episode Transcript

Length: 32:47


Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, eLearning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.


Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS, this is episode 695. Yes, my tribe, we’re getting close to the big 700. You’ve listened to us live for 700 of these shows, tribe. We have a great guest, I know I tend to say this, but I’ve been following our guest’s YouTube channel and I’ve learned a lot from him. We have Ryan Stewart, the founder of WEBRIS. And Ryan, would you like to give a quick introduction to the tribe?


Ryan Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. So, I like to call myself a marketing entrepreneur. That means my background and core competency is marketing, but started seven or so businesses over the last decade. Currently, as you said, managing partner at WEBRIS agency, we specialize in search engine optimization. We have a very specific way of doing that too, it’s a productized service we operate a winner called ‘Sprints’, happy to unpack that a little bit more.

Also, have a company called The Blueprint Training, we actually take that process and we sell it to other agencies as a coaching and training consulting business, it’s also very good and then I have my hands in a couple of other businesses as well. So, everything that I do is focused around marketing, so happy to dive into all of those topics.


Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, Ryan’s a true marketing SEO expert and a real one at that. I have my great co-host, we have Andrew Palmer. Andrew, would you like to introduce yourself to the tribe?


Andrew Palmer: Sure. I’m Andrew Palmer from, we have developed an AI copywriting system WordPress assistant. So, you write where you work if you’re building content within WordPress and that’s about it for me.


Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. Before we go into the main part of this great interview, which I’ve been personally looking forward to. We have a couple of messages from our major sponsors of the show. We’ll be back in a few moments.


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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back, folks. I have some great goodies, I have some great deals from some of our sponsors, also I have great lists of recommendations of WordPress plugins and services. Where do you go to get all these goodies? Well, you go over to wp-tonic/recommendations and you’ll find all the goodies there. So, Ryan, let’s go into it. So, first of all, the founding story, how did you get into the crazy world of online marketing and SEO, to say the wild west is a slight understatement, isn’t it?


Ryan Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. And when I got back in 12, God, was it 12, 13 years ago now too, it was really the Wild West. It was actually very similar to, I think what we’re seeing a lot now with crypto and a P, Web3 type stuff. It was before companies really fully believed in the power of the internet, God, I have some stories about when I was first trying to sell services back in the day, and companies were like, no, we don’t really see the internet as a thing.


Jonathan Denwood: That’s never going to be a, we’re not going to bother with that, are we.


Ryan Stewart: It looked bad. Only the kids are using it. But I graduated college in 2008 and I took a job at a very large consulting company called Deloitte and I hated every second of it. And while I was working at that job, I kind of figured out that I could put in an hour’s worth of work and do my eight hours of the day and I could spend the rest of seven hours searching the internet. And I was looking for other opportunities at that time and stumbled across the infancy of, this was back when it was called internet marketing too, now it’s digital marketing, it’s a little bit more professional, but this is back when banner ads and email lists ran the internet.

And I got trapped in a couple of those make money from home type funnels and eventually stumbled across internet marketing, SEO, very infancy of social media marketing, and it really piqued my interest. And I just dove in, became obsessed, started building my own WordPress sites, created blogs, started getting some traction, and just learning it because back then they didn’t, again, they didn’t teach it.

Not only did they not teach it, but companies weren’t really that hot on it. But through that experience, I shared a lot of it on a blog back then and was able to pick up a couple of clients on my own and kind of hit the ground running from there as an SEO consultant agency started working with small businesses and things just snowballed there over time. And I’ve been very fortunate to be able to build a number of companies and a very successful career off the back of what was an internet search back in the day.


Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, that’s great, Ryan. I just want to point out to the tribe, I get a lot of SEO experts pitch to come on this show. I actually approached Ryan personally myself, because I’m really impressed with your content, Ryan, and you’re down to earth approach to all this. Over to you, Andrew.


Andrew Palmer: Yeah. I’m interested to see somebody that actually admits to being an SEO and is willing to go onto a podcast, because that’s how I started in this business is SEO. I had a CD printing company and I managed to get it to number one, or it’s not about me, I know, but then I thought, I can be an SEO expert and put it out there and, yes, built a successful business on the back of that. But how do you deal with the negativity of being treated basically as an attorney or a real estate guy and saying, you’re telling me lies guys, prove it, I’ll tell you what get me to number one, and then I’ll give you some money? How do you deal with that kind of aspect of the clients?


Ryan Stewart: First and foremost, as a content creator on the internet, I’ve developed very thick skin. Other people’s opinions and nonsense I could give, pardon my French, two shits. If you don’t pay my bills, I don’t really care what you have to say. So, with that being said, when it comes to clients though, that’s a whole different story. But in this game, results and track records speak for themselves. And I also think the approach that we take, which is we’ve kind of redeveloped our offer over the last two years to get away from, basically everything that you just said, Andrew, which is kind of the snake oil salesman, just the self-proclaimed expert.

We’ve gotten away from that by getting off of this concept of 12-month long-term contracts and that SEO is a nonstop process when we already know that you do two weeks of work as an agency, and then you bulk a lot of it up front, then it’s just content development and link-building after that for the most part, for most websites. So, we’ve moved to what we call a productized service, which is what we call SEO Sprints, so you can’t put us on a 12-month contract.

We don’t want to do it just because it’s really not a good symbiotic working relationship for either party unless you’re a massive enterprise website like, which just needs constant maintenance, constant technical work. But that’s not the case for 99% of the websites on the web, it’s really, really, really just about building a good experience from a web point of view that has content targeting the right keywords with the right intent, all that type of stuff in the continuous development of content, and then continuous promotion of your website to get on other websites as link-building or PR activities.

It’s not overly complicated; we take a very no-bullshit approach to that. And it’s been very successful for us, we’ve been able to go against the grain when it comes to our pitches and just the way that we sell and do everything, it’s very open, it’s very honest, it’s very kind of anti SEO establishment and you see that in a lot of our marketing and advertising as well. So, first and foremost, results speak for themselves, as I said, I think if you don’t have the pedigree or the track record, then it’s easy to fall into that trap.

But I’ve been doing this for a very long time and it’s not just about me anymore, which is the best part about it, It’s about the team, it’s about me bringing in better people who share a passion for it. It’s funny, actually, I don’t consider myself an SEO, I almost kind of, maybe to you, Andrew, is that just because you know the skill, that’s a skill, but that’s not what I do on a daily, I haven’t done SEO in probably seven years. To be honest with you, I bring in teams of people who are passionate about it, who want to continue learning about it, but I build businesses, I build teams of people, I build culture, and I build demand through all types of marketing, SEO is only one facet of that.

But it’s not what I spend my time doing on a daily basis, so when people call me an SEO, I tend to correct them and I say, no, I’m a marketer. Or I’m a business owner, I’m a leader, I’m an executive, it’s what I’m trying to step into as the next role, SEO’s been great to me, it’s helped me get to where I am, it’s helped me make a lot of money, it’s helped me build businesses, but at the end of the day, that only takes so far as you know, Andrew. So, it’s kind of like if somebody came to you and you’re like, oh, Andrew, you’re an SEO and you’re like, no, no, no. It’s not what I do. I know how to do it, but that’s not what I do, you know what I’m saying?


Andrew Palmer: Exactly. The reason I don’t do it is because there are, you have found by being a leader, you can actually source the people, train the people in your philosophy rather than methodology, and your philosophy is very open and it’s being honest about what you’re doing and what you can achieve. And then you become the business leader and the business builder. So, you get a reputation as the individual, as a business builder that then brings the work and you then farm it out to whoever is working within your team and they get on with it and they make successes with them.

I think that’s a great attitude for a business owner to have is that I’m here to grow the business; I’m not here to actually do the work because that’s how I want the business.


Jonathan Denwood: So, Ryan, let’s remove the word SEO, and let’s say digital marketing. So, in your opinion, what have been some of the biggest changes in digital marketing over the past 18 months that have come on your radar, that you think are interesting or important?


Ryan Stewart: For sure. I think every day gets more competitive. More competitive, more people, rise in costs, plus all the stuff that happens in the market and COVID, all that fun stuff too. But it’s really just continuously rise in costs, which to me means continuously getting better and better at, really how I spend most of my time from a marketing point of view is content development and offer design, it’s making sure that we are, continuously, as a business creating marketing offers that our audience wants to take action on.

In that life cycle, we used to be able to run an offer for advertising with however you want to run that offer. We used to be able to run it for six to 12 months at a time, now it’s down to four to eight weeks at a time, so continuously refreshing offers, testing that offer, validating that offer, running that offer, and then already planning for the next one. That’s kind of, again, that’s due to more competition, that’s due to rising costs to advertise, that’s due to rising costs of staff and employees, we’ve seen a 25% increase in salary requests over the last 18 months alone from our folks, it’s a very, very real thing.

And what that means to the business is I’m not going to fight that, I have to pay my people what they want, because life is expensive, especially out here in the US, it’s expensive as hell. But that means to me as an operator, as a marketer, that we have to get continuously better at increasing the interest from the audience out there to lower our cost of acquisition continuously. So, to me, that’s been the biggest thing, of course, the development of TikTok, all those types of things, those are always going to happen, but to me, it’s much more on the micro-level of really keeping offers fresh and that’s really where the costs are.

The focal point of how we reduce our costs and continuously bring in customers that are profitable. [Inaudible – 13:00] Raised our prices crazy bad.


Jonathan Denwood: I just want to put this to you and see if you think I’m on the right track or if I’m deluding myself. One thing I’ve seen is that the concept of utilizing training and education as a marketing hook, I think in most organizations training was, or producing training content was seen as the last thing you did. And you gave it to the most junior person in the organization to write online help sections, copy training materials, a course, and all that type of stuff. But I think people are realizing that it can be a really strong differential from your competition that you provide a lot of training content on your websites, what do you think about that?


Ryan Stewart: I think that ties into the offer stuff. I think that, obviously, from a B2B space, absolutely, if you’re an e-commerce product-type company, it’s probably not going to be the same thing. We work with a lot of SaaS companies; it’s actually kind of our specialty at our agency. And what we see a lot of is an overestimation of what the brand thinks people care about because they’re so close to the brand, they look at content as here’s how to use our content when that’s all the way at the bottom of funnel, that’s for your customers, that’s for retention.

People are only interested in your product when they’re all the way down the buying cycle, looking at the product, so when it comes to training content, it’s a very loose term, assuming that you mean it maybe as a webinar or a value-adding video, stuff like that. Stuff that I’m constantly creating, but again, that ties into the offer, and I think where most companies go wrong is they don’t really know how to flush out offers properly because.


Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, I don’t want to interrupt. I just want to clarify what I meant.


Ryan Stewart: Sure.


Jonathan Denwood: I think most people are either aspirin or vitamin, they have a pain or they have aspiration. And the strongest one is you’re offering something that can solve their pain for them. So, what I meant by education, and part of what you’re showing them is how your product and service can solve their pain, but also give them information about the other factors that are educational. Am I waffling or is that helpful?


Ryan Stewart: No, not at all, look, I think humans are motivated by a number of things, but one of the things that motivate humans the most, especially from a buying point of view, is pain. People in pain doesn’t necessarily mean physical pain, like I’m bleeding, but, Hey, I’m spending way too much time doing X, therefore I need Y to help me out, that’s pain-based marketing. Ties into offers as well, the way that we teach offers is all about flushing out pain-points, your prospects, it’s not about, I say this all the time.

There are levels in terms of a funnel, in terms of marketing, content development, training content, those levels are understanding where that basically the levels of pain and where that prospect is in the buying cycle. So, most of the content that we focus on developing, especially for clients from a marketing point of view is not product-based pain, meaning, Hey, I have this pain, so, therefore, my product solves, why, because as a brand you should have that developed, it’s much more of an interest top-funnel pain-point bringing in audiences that are not at that level.

An example of this would be, if you have a CRM, there are some really good new CRMs out there, but trying to compete from a search or content point of view against HubSpot, it’s futile, you’re not going to win, HubSpot dominates. If you search for some terms, they literally own the first six spots and that’s because they’ve been doing content development, they’re so authoritative, but that’s much more on the product level pain-point.

I need a product to solve X, Y pain-point, but if you can tap into what they’re searching for ahead of that, or again, kind of dialing into much more, an example of this is at our training company, the blueprint training, all of our marketing, all of our offers are based on pain. Meaning as an agency owner, I know that your pain points, because I run it every day are things around staffing, management, retention, finding the right people, that’s one pain point that you can explore with content. Another one is being stuck working in the business; I tell this to people all the time, you do not have a business if you’re still doing the work.

If you’re an agency owner and you’re still doing client work, you don’t have an agency, you don’t have a business, you give a job. It’s just what it is. So, these are the types of pain points that, yes, our product can offer a solve to these, but that’s only if we were to just start by saying agency training or agency manage, whatever, that’s much more at the product level, but we go ahead of that. And this also ties into why I think SEO is not the most powerful tactic anymore, because so many of these things, people aren’t actually searching for at the time, because you just have a pain symptom, you don’t know what the solution is, so you can’t actually go to Google and search for it.

So, this is why content development is so important because we want to get to people before they search for a HubSpot, before they’ve identified that a CRM is the solution or that HubSpot is the solution, that’s mid-bottom funnel marketing. And that’s why so many companies lose is because they just go out and they assume everyone cares so much about their product or that they already know about their product, that they’re searching directly for that, or looking for that solution.

So, it’s tapping into that at a much higher level and the training content that you said, for example, would be creating content that’s much chunkier or much more in-depth around that pain point before they know that they’re ready for a CRM, or before they know that they want to.


Jonathan Denwood: Well, I can’t think there’s a kind of blend, isn’t there? We need to go for our break; it’s been a great first-half discussion. We’ll be back in a few moments.


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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I’ve had a bit of a dive in SEO, digital marketing with a real expert, real hardcore expert Ryan. Before we go into the second half of the show, I just wanted to tell you about the WP-Tonic newsletter, I write the editorial myself. Around my wall, I have a lot of cease and desist letters about my newsletter. I just use it as a way to spur me to write even more corrosive editorials. To get this lovely document, all you have to do is go to wp-tonic/newsletter, sign up for the newsletter and you’ll get it in your inbox every Monday about WordPress, SaaS, and what’s going on in general. So, over to you, Andrew.


Andrew Palmer: Well, I’m loving the way that you’re saying work on the business rather than in the business, but I’d be interested to know what the real money earner for you is. Is it WEBRIS or is it your training or are they kind of together because training, as you say, pain points, Jonathan builds training websites, I build training websites and stuff like that, and health and safety is one of the highest sellers, it’s incredible how people are searching under that. So, I had a look at your training websites and your courses, which is the most profitable and or the most enjoyable for you out of those two businesses?


Ryan Stewart: They’re both highly profitable and, also for context too, WEBRIS is pain point-based marketing too, the pain point is just, I need more leads, that’s just the pain, my sales team doesn’t have enough leads to call, so that’s a pain point we tap into there. They’re both profitable, they’re both great businesses. I would say I tend to skew a little bit more towards Blueprint because I’d rather work with an agency who’s somebody that we’re on the same page as opposed to working with a client, even though I don’t per se because the agency relationship with clients, as we all know, it can be a mixed bag, depending on a number of factors.

So, they’re both very profitable, they both make me quite a bit of money, so I love them both equally and the best part about it is that they’re more or less vertically integrated, meaning we’re selling essentially the same product. It’s web versus if you want us to run, we have this really good process to do SEO, it’s foolproof, we’ve been running it for 10 years, it’s been optimized over time, it’s really good.

You can hire us to do it for you at WEBRIS or we can teach you how to do it at Blueprint, so that process, our product is something that we’re continuously, and that’s one of the reasons why we’ve had so much success, because we’re now basically being funded from two sorts to continuously improve that over time. I love them both, they’re symbiotic, they go hand-in-hand and if I would have to choose one [No Audio – 22:54] Blueprint because it just comes much more naturally to talk about agency stuff, as opposed to, the SEO stuff doesn’t really interest me anymore, to be honest with you.


Andrew Palmer: It’s also nice to train people. So, that was my own question, but basically, the question that we obviously want to answer is when a designer or the dev agency’s looking for an SEO agency to work with in connection to a client’s needs, what are some of the major things an agency needs to understand if the business relationship is going to be a successful one? What do they need to understand? Well, you seem to have all the answers to the difficult questions that people ask them, so if you can kind of put it into 30 seconds to a minute of how have you become so successful in this very difficult area, very competitive area?


Ryan Stewart: In terms of how do we get clients of staying on until we get them to?


Andrew Palmer: How do you answer their objections? Because there are always objections from clients, it doesn’t matter whether they were positively referred, they still say, yeah, but, so how do you turn that around, because that’s what agencies suffer from daily?


Ryan Stewart: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And we still suffer from it too, because, in all fairness, I don’t take sales calls, so I have to work through other people to do it too, because the business can’t grow if I’m doing everything right. So, it’s a challenge that I work with my sales team on our twice per week sales call, it’s just what objections have you gotten this week? And some of that ties into the product development side of things, for example, we don’t write content for clients, it’s just, the type of clients we want to work with should have a writer on staff or know how to use AI technology.

We tend to focus on content briefs, just because there’s so much ambiguity and opinion when it comes to content, we tend to just be like, look, [No Audio – 00:24:43] companies who have a writer, we’re going to handle everything else, but that’s one of the [No Audio – 24:47] we get a lot. So, it ties into, we’re now working on an offer that will allow for full content writing, so that’s one from product development. Another one is just experience; I’ve been doing this for so long, I have so much confidence.

And I think actually, I had a coaching call yesterday with some agencies, which was kind of in the same vein and I was talking about developing confidence in this area because a lot of the times, it might sound bad, but if you’re [No Audio – 25:13] in something, when it comes to SEO, there’s usually not a right answer, there’s just not. Google is an AI algorithm that we, Google doesn’t even know the answer to the questions, but based on experience and based on track record, I can confidently speak about it to give my clients the peace of mind that their money is safe, their investment is safe with us.

And that’s so much, again, based on our track record, based on our process, you’re basically betting on the process, you’re not really betting on anything else aside from that, you’re betting on the fact that if we do these things repeatedly over and over again, our track record’s proven that these are going to have the right results. And there’s no way to validate that from Google or anyone else, so go ahead, Jonathan.


Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, sure. So, it’s kind of linked, you’ve run a number of successful online businesses and I think in your video, Lessons Learned From Running Four Agencies, could you share one or two key lessons that you’ve learned in running these agencies that you could share? Because our audience is mostly freelancers, agencies, or SaaS entrepreneurs, bootstrap SaaS entrepreneurs; that’s our audience. So, maybe you can give us one or two major things you’ve learned in running and selling these businesses, I think that would be really helpful, Ryan.


Ryan Stewart: A hundred percent. So, number one is positioning, and that’s all about the who. Who are you targeting? If you try and be a Jack of all trades, you’re going to be a master of none. We’ve honed in on software companies because they align with a lot of how we operate and how we work and the language that we speak, but it could be roofers, it could be whoever.

And there are a number of different ways to dial in on that position, it’s actually one of the things that we coach heavy on The Blueprint, but especially if you’re stuck in that freelancer stage, if you’re stuck doing the work, it’s because you can’t work with an e-commerce site and then a lawyer and then an AI writing company. Because they all have different nuances to the type of campaign and it’s basically trying to build a service on top of a service, it’s way too much work until your agency gets to the point where you can bring in people to help out with that, so number one is positioning.

Number two is process. If you don’t have processes that are scalable and repeatable, you’re going to go off the rails and that also ties into the fact that if you’re not working with a singular type of client, especially when you’re younger, you can’t build processes. Which is why you’re stuck working in the business, which is why you can’t retain and find the right employees, which is why your margins suck, which is why you’re running around nonstop working all the time, because you don’t have processes to dictate that and that’s partially tied into the who.

And number three is marketing, most agencies don’t market themselves, it’s almost ironic, you’re a marketing agency, but you don’t market yourself. And again.


Andrew Palmer: It’s called the other shoes, isn’t it? This covers me, I don’t know if it’s exactly that.


Ryan Stewart: Yeah. And that’s usually a symptom of the fact that they don’t have the time to do it, so they just don’t and that’s a symptom of lack of positioning, that’s a symptom of lack of processes. And then, of course, people too, people are really the final part of it. As part number four, you can’t do it yourself, if you do, then you’re a consultant or you have a job, and so many agencies take offense to that and it’s good because I love rubbing people the wrong way a little bit. But it’s a fact, if you are taking client calls, if you’re taking sales calls, so many agencies or two are like, yeah, I don’t do client work, but I’m taking sales calls. I’m like, that’s a job, you’re a salesperson.

Do you know what I’m saying? You need to be able to step all the way back. Look, I agree with you, Jonathan, there are nuances, I just got off a sales call for Blueprint, I’m happy to jump on calls and help close out, but it’s not my job.


Jonathan Denwood: Well, I’m the Rainmaker of my agency, I’m the one that produces the content, the SEO, does the SEO. I don’t do the work, my business is modeled similar to yours, we are a productized service, a hybrid, but I consider my role as the Rainmaker, my role is to produce content, do the SEO and bag the clients and provide leadership and process to my team.


Ryan Stewart: So, that’s a little bit different, do you guys have a sales team, a sales model or is it all self-checkout?


Jonathan Denwood: Well, you’re looking at him. But I don’t do, I have a project manager and I have another. I


Ryan Stewart: Small piece of advice, I agree with you, I tell people all the time, because I’m like, okay, well, I pulled myself out of everything now, what do I do? And I tell you, well, it’s your role to be a content creator basically. Do you know what I’m saying? Literally, because I agree, I have a full-time writer, full-time video person, I have all these full-time people that help out with content, but it’s still ultimately my role because it’s not only what I do best, but it’s ultimately how the business is going to grow.

But at the same time we operate on a sales model, it’s just how we are and if it was my calendar that was out there, I wouldn’t be able to do this, I’d have five sales calls a day and that’s just the calls, that’s not talking about the follow-ups, the contracts, the proposals, all that type of stuff. So, there are different types of sales models, at The Blueprint, it’s a little bit different, we don’t do proposals, it’s usually one-call closes. I could take those calls, but again, then I can’t focus on the other things in the business as well.

So, it’s a common, trust me, Jonathan, it’s a common rebuttal I get all the time when I work with agencies, people often get a little bit ruffled because they think that they have to sell or they’re the only one that can sell, but it’s not the case.


Jonathan Denwood: I totally understand your position. I’m not saying it’s right, wrong, or indifferent. I totally understand and I actually do agree with you, I just think it depends on where you are and how, what are we doing for time? I think we’re going to end the podcast part of the show. But Ryan’s been really generous; he’s going to stay on for our bonus content, which you can watch on the WP-Tonic YouTube channel. You’ll be able to watch the whole interview plus the bonus content, I have a couple of really good questions, I’m sure Andrew has some more as well.

Ryan is a true marketing expert, a digital marketing expert. So, Ryan, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and your thoughts and your inspiration, Ryan?


Ryan Stewart: Check me out on YouTube. Ryan Stewart. I publish there quite a bit. We have a couple of channels now, we have the agency Blueprint channel, but my personal channel is where I share most of my insights, I tend to talk about what’s going on in my businesses at that time, nothing specific, but a bunch of stuff about entrepreneurship, growth, marketing, stuff like that, stuff I’m seeing right now, all that type of stuff. So, YouTube is definitely the best.


Jonathan Denwood: It’s a very good channel and I will make sure it’s in the show notes, tripe. Andrew, what’s the best way for people to learn more about you and what you’re up to, Andrew?


Andrew Palmer: Well, go to, we write a book, we have a couple of big blog posts coming out of the moat, because we’ve just improved the engine, so that’s really cool, it’s an exclusive to WP-Tonic. So, I’ll be writing about that, but you can find me at Arnie Palmer or BerthaAI_ on Twitter. And obviously, I’m around on podcast, so you can get hold of me there as well.


Jonathan Denwood: That’s great, Andrew. So, please go over to the WP-Tonic YouTube channel. We have a load of content on there, it’s great stuff and the channel’s being growing, please go over there and subscribe and support the tribe. We’ll be back next week with another expert like Ryan, another great interview that hopefully will provide value to you. We’ll you soon, folks. Bye.


Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we really do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group, and also to keep up with the latest news click We’ll see you next time.

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