We myself and Andrew Palmer have a discussion on WCEU (WordCamp Europe 2022)
which has been slightly criticized for not being diverse enough connected to the speaker list and also how it dealt with Covid-19 and mask requirements. To be honest, personally, I thought both criticism points were petty and unfair and I thought the organizers of WCEU did an amazing job pulling off a great event in semi-difficult times.
Then we discuss where is WordPress in the second half of 2022 which I can’t believe has the first half gone?
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Episode Transcript
Length: 35:27
Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, eLearning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS, this is episode 705. My God, 705. We did have a great guest; unfortunately, she had a bit of a family emergency. So, you just have me and the Andrew Palmer. Andrew looks back on form, actually, he’s been recovering from COVID a bit, but you look a bit perkier this week.
Andrew Palmer: Hey, I’m 90%, which is basically about 20% more than before COVID. So, it’s probably done me some good, I’ve had a good rest, and had a full eight hours of sleep last night, which was the first time in three weeks that I’ve had an uninterrupted sleep pattern, which is awesome. So, yeah, I’m pretty happy and we’re just going to have a little chit-chat today about certain things.
Jonathan Denwood: We’re going to, yeah, you do look a lot better, Andrew.
Andrew Palmer: Thanks, mate. It could be the camera.
Jonathan Denwood: So, send me the check after the show. We’re just going to have a general discussion about where WordPress is coming into the second quarter of 2022. We’re going to talk about WordPress Europe, WordCamp Europe, just the state of the WordPress ecosystem. It was kind of triggered off by Matt Medeiros’ last podcast. Matt is a great WordPress individual and we’re just going to really just blatantly copy some of the things that he talked about. We’re going for our break now; we have a couple of messages from our major sponsors. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back and I’d like to point out, I have some great special offers from the sponsors, I have some great recommendations of plugins and services that I’ve utilized, or I really believe in. To get these special offers and recommendations, all you have to do is go over to the wp-tonic/recommendations and all the goodies are there. So, Andrew, one of the, and you could accuse me of it, but I normally only limit it to my Friday show. But sometimes the WordPress community can just be slightly bonkers, can’t it?
What’s been pointed out by yourself and I know you should also listen to Matt and on Twitter, is that there’s been some criticism of WordCamp Europe, hasn’t there? I attended it, I know you did, I know you got COVID and I knew a few people in your party that also got COVID, but you’re not negative about it, and nor am I, I actually thought for an event I hadn’t run for almost three years, I thought they really pulled it off.
Andrew Palmer: I think they did. I think what we have to celebrate. And I actually, Matt Medeiros actually let me make a little retort to his rant about WordPress and whatever, but it was, basically in celebration of WordCamp Europe and stuff. So, if you go to thewpminute.com, you can have a listen to my three-minute celebration of WCEU and the fact that some people, basically saved my lives, because my temperature was just ridiculous; you could have definitely fried a few omelets.
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, yeah.
Andrew Palmer: Fry eggs on my back. But the whole point of these things are, is that there are hundreds of people involved in organizing this. The financial ramifications are massive. The sponsors dig very, very deep in their pockets, it’s not even for a smaller plugin business, just to sponsor the coffee is 1500 euros. If you sponsor the coffee for one day, it costs you 1500 euros and it’s great. So, latte sponsored by whoever, but you also have four or five grand for a little booze, then you’re talking about the Yoasts of this world that are, it’s a phenomenal amount of money, 60 grand or 70 grand, GoDaddy’s spending 60 or 70 grand.
Then you have the events that people put on, Pagely put on a lovely boat trip, which was pretty much an open invite to a lot of the community, you can only fit 150 people on this boat anyway, for safety reasons.
Jonathan Denwood: Did you get seasick?
Andrew Palmer: I didn’t get sick at all, actually, I was quite good. The booze was flowing and there’s a thing that I say that I don’t drink and I honestly, don’t drink day-to-day, but when I go to these events, I kind of just go, eh, why not? That’s how I drink. And we went out for dinner afterward with a few other people, which was sponsored by Bertha and WS Form, we bought a few people, a few beers, and a few snacks as well, late on into the evening as well.
So, everybody dips their hand into their pocket to celebrate the WordPress community and also to network and to, we’ve met for the first time, Jon, you and I had a nice walk around the park and had a good little chat and spent some time together at WordCamp Europe and it’s always good to meet people in real life. It was unfortunate that I got COVID. The fortunate bit about it was that I got it on the Sunday, I got sick on the Sunday, obviously, I must have been a little bit ill on the Saturday and just didn’t realize.
Jonathan Denwood: I was a little bit edgy about the whole thing because I didn’t want to get COVID and then go to the UK. I wouldn’t have done it, I would’ve stayed in Portugal, but I wanted to go and see my family.
Andrew Palmer: Sure.
Jonathan Denwood: I really should have gone to the UK first and then gone to Portugal, I didn’t work that one, but the problem is, I don’t think there’s a flight from Porto to direct to the US; I think I would’ve had to do so, it would’ve got a bit complicated. But I was a little bit edgy because I was kind of into camps, I wanted to socialize and I found it a little bit overwhelming and I’m a strange mixture of being an extravert and an introvert. And I found it a little bit overwhelming, but also I was a little bit edgy about getting the big C, basically.
Andrew Palmer: And that’s the risk we have to take though, because let’s face it, it’s out there, most of us or a lot of us are vaccinated, I’m double vaxxed and boosted, I’m not double-boosted, but I think that the risks for somebody that is vaccinated and boosted is they’re quite acceptable. I wouldn’t like to get it again, since talking to people since having it and this isn’t all about me getting COVID, but a lot of people are saying, well, you got it again. Well, I’ve never had it. So, I went to CloudFest, there were 7,000 people there.
I’ve been to many social places, I helped people run their restaurants, I even, for instance, tomorrow night, I’m waiting on tables, because we have staff shortages at one of the restaurants that I help out. So, there are things. And the other day I was delivering pizzas. So, it depends on what you’re doing, because business at the moment because of COVID and because of the pandemic and the air, let’s talk about the airline issues, about trying to get to Portugal. Stephanie Hudson took 28 hours, I know that Bob had some problems, even though he was going business class, you had a few issues with delayed flights and lots of people.
Jonathan Denwood: It was Paris but it was still about 20-plus hours it took me to get there.
Andrew Palmer: That’s a big commitment to think, I’m in the states, there’s no direct flight to Porto, if the airlines had maybe thought about it, or maybe even, this is not a criticism of WordCamp Europe. Maybe these big events need to get in touch with a few airlines and say, look, we need direct flights, for instance, for 3000 people who knows, or 2,600 people. But what I wanted to celebrate and what I said in my little wpminute.com podcast was, it was a great time thanks to the sponsors, thanks mostly to the volunteers and the organizers, the chief, it takes up their life for two years, it’s crazy.
And to have an event of such awesomeness with all the speakers that were there, I know that you attended the speakers, Matt Mullenweg took time out to come out to WC.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, and I thought, I’ve been a little bit critical of Matt. I’ve tried not to make it personal because maybe I have a little bit, but that wasn’t my intention, but I was impressed with his performance, actually, he looked much happier, he looked more relaxed and you could see why he was where he is. I know that’s a bit of a strange statement.
Andrew Palmer: As the leader of Auttomatic and the lead developer of WordPress and now lead of Tumblr, which he’s kind of moved on to, let’s not take anything away from Josepha, I think that’s how you say her name, but she runs WordPress really, Director of WordPress.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. She did a good job, I’ve asked her to come on the show, she said she might consider it. But she’s rather busy, so I won’t hold it against her if she can’t.
Andrew Palmer: She is busy, but she has time for Twitter, she has time to comment on stuff and unlike me, forgets to turn off his email, because it dings every so often, but which I’ve now done, I have to check my phone.
Jonathan Denwood: So, why do you think there was some of this negativity, do you have any insight? Is it peculiar to the WordPress community? Or why did it, I was really gobsmacked at some of the negative statements, especially about diversity. There were people from all over the world attending this event.
Andrew Palmer: The diversity thing was about how many of the organizers weren’t diverse enough, that was the criticism. And it can be fair enough and everything, we have to be very, the problem is whenever you start talking about diversity and then the criticisms thereof that diversity people have criticized something, and then you criticize the criticism, you end up being the one that gets burned at the stake. So, it’s a really dangerous thing to get involved in the conversation, but I’m the caveat is.
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, it’s a bit.
Andrew Palmer: Let me just finish because otherwise I will get burned at the stake. The caveat is that when you are actually at the event, you see the true diversity, Codeable had a Pride night under the unofficial LGBTQ night. You have people of all races, of all denominations, and all genders there, who are mixing and being sociable and loving each other and sharing and networking and doing business together. And I think what it is, if you look at something from afar and say, I’m not happy with that, that becomes the talking point, but if you are involved in these events.
I know that the organizers were doing their very best to make it as inclusive as everything, to everything in this new world that we have, that we have to be inclusive to everyone. And I think that people that criticized it before and didn’t go, need to start going to these things to realize that actually or being an organizer, volunteer to be an organizer, to realize how difficult it is to organize something like this from financial [Inaudible – 13:41].
Jonathan Denwood: You know.
Andrew Palmer: Get involved. You want to change that, get involved.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. And you have to realize a lot of these people are volunteers, they’re not getting paid for any of this. And some people.
Andrew Palmer: All of them are volunteers.
Jonathan Denwood: You’re not getting paid for any of this. As somebody that runs a podcast in the WordPress space for the past seven years, the past six months to a year, I’ve really attempted to get more people on the round table show, more diverse guests on the Thursday show. And I have spent a lot of extra time, Andrew, I have had some success. I have been a bit frustrated, because I’ve outreached to a lot of people and I’ve been ghosted to some extent.
So, I can understand some of the frustration of the organizers of WordCamp. Because it’s alright for these people to criticize, but they don’t know how much outreach was done, but they just didn’t get a response. Running my little podcast, I think I can see that they probably did make a lot of attempts, but it takes two to tango, doesn’t it?
Andrew Palmer: They’re doing their best and the criticism on the masking as well. Well, you could have hired a company that specializes in having people around there reminding people to wear masks. Well, you could have, it’s alright having 20/20 vision, but actually, I tweeted after the day, alright, I got COVID and I masked most of the time, there were times when I didn’t mask, there were a couple of events I went to that I didn’t mask because they were in bars and we were drinking.
What I don’t like is 20/20 criticism, 20/20 hindsight criticism. That is a great idea, maybe we can implement that next time, let’s put another $10 on the entry fee, because that’s what we’re going to need to pay for it, right?
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I just think the entry fee was ridiculously cheap, I think you need a balance; you don’t want something that’s 500 to a thousand dollars. But on the other hand, I thought the ticket price should be a little bit more realistic, myself. And that takes a little bit of the pressure off of the sponsors and that, no, it’s a duality. The masking thing, I thought that was bonkers, because I think if you feel something coming on or you are doing a test or you’re pretty sure that you have it, I think you have a responsibility of probably not to attend, stay in your hotel room.
If you’re not sure, I think you have a moral responsibility to go and get a test or if you’ve had it and you’re recovering, you should wear a mask. The whole point of wearing a mask, in my limited knowledge, Andrew, is it stops you from spreading it, it doesn’t help you from getting it, but it stops you from spreading it.
Andrew Palmer: There’s the anti-mask brigade, I saw one at the airport. He said to me, why are you wearing a mask? I said, well, none of your business.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah.
Andrew Palmer: Why are you worried about me wearing a mask? Get lost. I’m just not interested in talking to people that slag me off for wearing a mask, it’s my choice, I wear a mask. I could have said to him, because I’m pig-ugly and I don’t want to shock you. But I had just gotten over COVID and I was going back to the UK, so that’s why I wore a mask, I didn’t know whether I was still infectious and I will do everything I can to protect the people around me. And that’s why I stayed.
Jonathan Denwood: I don’t really want the moral responsibility of spreading it and maybe giving it to a child and that child dying.
Andrew Palmer: Well, that’s why I stayed in Portugal, that’s why I stayed in Portugal for an extra week, because I could have flown back, there are no rules, I didn’t need to test; in the UK, we can travel with COVID now, we can go outside, we don’t need to quarantine, but I was actually not very well, so I just decided to stay.
Jonathan Denwood: Let’s get back to the core question before we go for the break and then in the break, we’re going to be talking about the WordPress plugins being bought, there’s been a lot of activity lately. So, have you come to your own conclusion, this negativity that came out about WordCamp Europe, is it peculiar to the WordPress ecosystem community or it would be in any community?
Andrew Palmer: It’s just humans. We are so quick to criticize, it’s just depressing. We need to celebrate more; we have to realize that we’re sitting on a rock that’s spinning around in an infinitesimal space of space, and stop criticizing people and start celebrating people and celebrating the good that these people are doing in the community.
Jonathan Denwood: Because I think what you clearly saw at WordCamp is there are two parts of me, I don’t want to over, we are all around the campfire singing kumbaya, but on the other hand, I don’t think Squarespace or Wix could get, they sold, I think two point, 2,700 and I think they had 2,500 people attend. I don’t think there are many web-based tools that could get a crowd like that from all over the world like that.
Andrew Palmer: Definitely. I think that’s the lovely thing in the wonder of WordPress, it’s a shame that WordPress US has restricted it to 650. It’s just madness, and I know why they’ve done it, but I just don’t get it. Europe was, the three European WordCamps that I’ve been to, the Berlin, Serbia, and this one, were phenomenal events, they bring people together, they celebrate WordPress and it shows people that haven’t been, I met a load of people that had never been to a WordCamp and they said, oh, God, I just.
Jonathan Denwood: And I thought Matt was a lot more relaxed. I’ve seen him when it was being held in San Francisco, I attended three or four before it stopped being, and he looked a lot more relaxed at your [Inaudible – 00:20:27].
Andrew Palmer: Well, he’s a few years in now, let’s not forget and he’s kind of pretty self-assured about where WordPress is going and what’s happening, even though there’s little chatter about north 0.4% down, but who cares, that will be addressed. But the point is with WordPress, it is about the community and it’s about business leaders, and it’s about sponsors, the big guys, the hosts, the Yoasts of this world, the angry creators of this world, the agencies that are interested in WordPress and communicating what they’re doing and how they’re growing their businesses.
So, on the back of something that is, essentially free, so we’ve all built businesses on the back of WordPress, I am grateful. I have a great deal of gratitude to WordPress, but before, I was Joomla, that was open-source as well. So, the open-source community, in celebration, goes to these WordCamps; they’re hard work to put on, there’s a lot of negotiation with the city. Porto, completely supported this WordCamp and thought, I’m going to get up to 3000 new visitors here, there’s a bit of tourist stuff going on. How cheap was Porto as well?
We were getting in an Uber for three euros and traveling for 15 minutes, it was crazy, it was great. So, it’s a whole thing that these things have to be done; celebrate rather than denigrate, that’s what my message is.
Jonathan Denwood: Right. I think that’s a good message to go for our middle break. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I do a weekly newsletter. I do the editorial myself, my editorials, I feel I’ve been getting better. I’ve been getting a lot of positive feedback. To get this great newsletter, basically, it has all the latest WordPress news stories that we discuss on the Friday show, plus some tech stories, plus my editorial; to get that, you go to wp-tonic/newsletter. You sign up for it and it’ll be in your inbox every Sunday or Monday.
Let’s go on, Andrew, let’s talk about the WordPress professional market. We’ve had a lot of activity about plugins being bought. We’ve had some layoffs as well, Elementor laid off between 50 and 60. I have mixed feelings about that, but it’s their business. We had a guest on last week, Andrew, and, well, you were there.
Andrew Palmer: I was there for a minute, but my internet connection collapsed.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. Sometimes you can overthink stuff and I think I’ve overthought why hosting companies have bought, I always tried to see that there was some; with Elementor buying Strattic, I think that you can clearly understand why they did it. For some of the other plugins, I think I overthought things, because it was really by our guest next last week, he clearly pointed out to me the whole point of buying these plugins was to buy access to the audience.
Andrew Palmer: Sure. That’s the only thing.
Jonathan Denwood: I’ve been overthinking all of this. So, where do you, you’ve been with Bertha, with other plugins, you’ve bought some plugins, you’ve sold some plugins, where do you see the professional market and the business side being in the second quarter of 2022?
Andrew Palmer: I just want to precursor this, my view on Elementor is, and I actually commented on the WP Tavern, they did it, and my opinion is it’s driven by investors who want more and more profits out of these companies. So, Elementor’s had what, 50, 60 million thrown at them, Strattic had 6 million thrown at them, so God knows how much Elementor paid, they must have paid more than that, one would hope. So, they want more and more profits, and I’ve said who can blame them in these difficult times of worldwide conflict and political unrest and people simply not being able to afford to fill their cars, their fridges, and their cupboards.
It could also be though, that these companies are getting ready for an IPO, so to go out onto the stock market, or for somebody else to give them even more money. And it’s not uncommon to trim the sails in order to sell the boat for a higher price and that’s the kind of thing. And the other comments on there are kind of similar and they’re kind of critical of people being made redundant. When you’ve grown as quickly as Elementor you need to employ a lot of people, we all remember Ben Pines from their, an excellent marketing director, helped the business grow, I know Yoni myself, I’ve met him a few times, both online and in real life.
And they’re very sensible people, they know what they want, they know what they need. And to dump 50 to 60 people is bloody hard work, I’ve sacked a few people in my life; I’ve had businesses that have had massive turnover and they’ve gone down, we’ve lost a client, we’ve had to get rid of 30, 40 people. It’s not easy to make people redundant, let me tell you, it’s one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do. But one of the main reasons a company will buy, if you’re talking bricks and mortar, so when we were selling print, I was selling print companies and buying print companies.
You’re after their client list, nothing else, and you’re doing, Robert Maxwell many, many years ago, used to get slagged off for asset stripping; he’d go in, buy a printing company for a pound, sell off all the gear, take the client list and give it to the Oxford Press, which he owned. So, the Oxford press, all of a sudden, has 200 clients, maybe 50 or 60, or even a hundred of those clients aren’t very good payers, hence, the reason for the other business going bust, but you’ve gained some clients.
The thing with WP Engine buying Delicious Brains’ plugins, ACF is not a particularly buy because most of the people are on lifetimes, all that kind of stuff, but the other plugins. But if ACF has a million people that have paid out or even a hundred thousand people that have paid out a hundred dollars for a lifetime, that’s another hundred thousand people, or a thousand people or ten thousand people that WP Engine can sell their services to.
I was bought; Elegant Marketplace was bought by Inmotion Hosting. You can guarantee that the hundred thousand customers of Elegant Marketplace were marketed for Inmotion Hosting business, and if they weren’t, then In Motion hasn’t done their job properly. So, it is, basically a client-list acquisition, as well as, maybe keeping a recurring income. If it’s a really good plugin.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I think you made some great points there because I kind of overthought it, sometimes I am a bit of a thinker, I know you’re going to be surprised to hear that, Andrew, but I am. But I kind of over.
Andrew Palmer: You should think a little bit quicker before you open your mouth sometimes, but apart from that, that’s all there.
Jonathan Denwood: I could say the same to you, Andrew. But I do, honestly, think the WP Engine purchase of Delicious Brains’ library of plugins apart from one, which they want to focus on is probably a good purchase because it kind of fits into the crowd that they bought when they bought StudioPress from the two Brians, it kind of fits in with that crowd, doesn’t it? You can see the lot, they would love it, and I think they’ve been good stewards, I don’t think it’s been really a part of your tribe and it’s not been a part of my tribe, I think it’s Sallie, who’s a regular on the Friday round table, and she has gotten over her illness, so she’s been more regular recently, coming on.
She’s really big in the Genesis StudioPress community. I just thought, yeah, I could totally see why they bought it and you’re totally right, because of the lifetime license issue, it probably, with reflection, wasn’t a great purchase for Delicious Brains, was it?
Andrew Palmer: No. And the way it was managed, basically asking people to either donate or repay for it. I acquired 23 plugins about 18 months ago and I think 21 of them were previously sold on literally lifetime licenses. So, there are no earnings from them apart from future earnings, now we charge an annual rate and reduced it a little bit and whatever. So, it’s a dangerous thing because you have support burdens on there as well, so somebody says, I bought this three years ago and we’ve updated it five times, we’ve made them visual builder compatible for Divvy.
Jonathan Denwood: I found it a bit of a bizarre situation because, but this is easy for me, I’m just going to put this to you. I found it a bit bizarre, that whole thing really, because I saw Gutenberg as a golden opportunity to say, well, this was 1.1 pre-Gutenberg and then we’re adding all this additional functionality for Gutenberg. This is going to be a 2.2 product we’re on a 1.1, but you’re getting all this additional new functionality to help you deal with Gutenberg and we do a special deal because we really appreciate you being a loyal customer and buying a lifetime for 1.0.
Here’s a special deal, but you are going to have to pay some more money. I just thought there were loads of opportunities to handle it in a better way, am I deluding myself?
Andrew Palmer: I agree. I know, I totally agree with you. But the only way to handle taking over a product that has lifetime licenses is to honor the lifetime licenses without question, it’s that simple or.
Jonathan Denwood: Well, you don’t have to, but you’ll look a bit of a.
Andrew Palmer: Well, no, that’s the only.
Jonathan Denwood: Dickhead, won’t you? You’ll look a bit dickish, won’t you?
Andrew Palmer: Listen, if I’m going to buy your business, Jon, and you have people that have done lifetime, Bertha has done lifetime licenses, anybody that invests in Bertha or buys Bertha eventually, will have to.
Jonathan Denwood: I’m one of them.
Andrew Palmer: Exactly. Will have to honor that lifetime license, because otherwise, I’ll just say, well, it’s not worth selling, because I’m not going to get slagged off and I don’t want the person buying me to get slagged off. But the point is that we sell a WP buying all of these plugins, LearnDash.
Jonathan Denwood: So, you think you got on, but I do think there’s an adult way, maybe I’m being a little bit patronizing, isn’t there a way that they could have said, here’s 1.0, but with this Gutenberg, we’re going to add all this and it’s a 2.0 situation. I think there was a way of doing it or am I just?
Andrew Palmer: No, because the deal with the lifetime was, and all updates, that was the deal. So, you can’t move the goalpost just because you sold it, you just can’t do it. And I’m not talking about it from a personal perspective, I don’t even know the guys at Delicious Brains, I don’t even think about them from day-to-day, but if you’re going to buy a plugin or an extension or something that has a lifetime deal with it. Before you buy it, read what that lifetime deal means, if it means all updates for the future and forever, tough shit, and if you want to buy it, that’s fine, but that’s your decision.
Jonathan Denwood: Well, fair enough. This is fascinating, actually, Andrew has a tougher and he has Betha and he has a tougher position than me, it’s fascinating, isn’t it listeners and viewers?
Andrew Palmer: You can’t cut off the lifetime, it’s lifetime. That’s what it means.
Jonathan Denwood: Fair enough. We’re going to wrap the podcast part of the show up, folks. I think Andrew, you’re up for some bonus content aren’t you, Andrew, you seeing quite well?
Andrew Palmer: Yeah. I always do.
Jonathan Denwood: Sorry, Andrew. To watch everything, folks, go over to the WP-Tonic YouTube channel and you can watch the podcast and the bonus content on the WP-Tonic YouTube channel. And please subscribe, we’ve been getting a lot more subscribers to the channel and listeners to the podcast. I think it’s become one of the most popular podcasts in WordPress, and I really appreciate you listeners who have been loyal to the podcast and the new listeners that are joining us on a regular basis. We’re going to finish this show, please, as I said, join us on the YouTube channel. We’ll be back with a great guest next week. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye.
Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we really do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group and also to keep up with the latest news, click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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