How Do You Compete in a Competitive WordPress Plugin Market Sector?
Mark’s Bio
Mark offers a unique mix of entrepreneurial business experience coupled with a broad scope of I.T. knowledge. His career has primarily focused on the web industry.
He is a high-energy business management and technology professional with exceptional interpersonal and communication skills.
His clients have included Sony, KPMG, SAP, Condenast, Hearst Corporation, Safeway, Ericsson, Google, Community Coffee, PR Week, Icom, BBC, British Telecom, and Wembley Stadium. His experience boasts work on over 250 web projects.
His career started in 1996 when he formed Absolute Internet, one of the U.K’s fastest-growing web agencies. In 2003 he joined Londonlaunch Ltd working alongside John Broome CBE to produce London’s premier online destination for event professionals.
In 2008 he started Simple.com, L.L.C, a venture-backed company specializing in providing software to industry leaders in the wedding industry.
His contributions to the web community include authoring a book about CGI programming and submissions to numerous Internet focussed publications. Mark is alll the founder and CEO of WS Form.
The Interview Main Questions
#1 – So Mark, can you give us the whole story connected to how you got into the semi-crazy world of web development, mainly WordPress?
#2 – Why did you decide to enter the Form WordPress plugin market, which is a pretty competitive sector? What was your business logic connected to this decision?
#3 – What has been the most successful way that you have found to market WS Forms, and what makes the WordPress market a bit different from other markets you have worked in?
#4 – You have worked with some major international brands and have got any insight or advice from agencies trying to get similar clients?
#5 – Everybody makes mistakes. What are some of the biggest lessons you learned from your business mistakes?
#6 – What are some of your biggest heroes, and why?
This Week Show’s Sponsors
Sensei LMS: Sensei LMS
BlogVault: BlogVault
WS Form: WS Form
LaunchFlows: LaunchFlows
Focuswp.co Focuswp
Episode Transcript
File: 717 WP-Tonic Interview
Length: 34:23
(00:00)
Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, eLearning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.
(00:14)
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS. This is episode 717; we have a great guest, a friend of the show as well, and we have Mark Westguard. He’s the founder, and I must get this right of WS Form.
(00:35)
Mark Westguard: That’s it.
(00:36)
Jonathan Denwood: Because I have an unbelievable need to call it something else, which Mark has pointed out to me. I have controlled myself tribe, but it should be a great show, a great interview; I’m going to let Mark quickly give us a 10, 20-second introduction. Mark, can you introduce yourself to the tribe?
(00:58)
Mark Westguard: Sure. Yeah. Mark Westguard, founder of WS Form, a WordPress plugin for building forms.
(01:05)
Jonathan Denwood: And I have my co-host Andrew Palmer, the man that knows how to get me into some severe trouble. So, Andrew, can you introduce yourself to the tribe?
(01:19)
Andrew Palmer: My name’s Andrew Palmer, and I’m from Bertha.ai, to which Mark Westguard recently became a contributor because of his coding skills. So, there you go.
(01:28)
Jonathan Denwood: Alright, that’s great. Before we go into this great interview, we have a couple of messages from my major sponsors. We’ll be back in a few moments.
(01:40)
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(02:13)
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(02:45)
Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I’d like to point out, that I have some great special offers from the sponsors, plus other great offers and recommendations on WordPress plugins and services. You can get all these goodies by going over to wp-tonic/recommendations, and you’ll find them all there. So, let’s go straight into it. So, Mark, how did you get into the kind of, I call it the semi-crazy world of development, and then, specifically, how did you get into the even more crazy world, in my opinion, of WordPress?
(03:24)
Mark Westguard: Well, that’s a long story. I’ve been coding since I was about four or five years old, so I’m the classic British kid that was given a spectrum by their father and coded that way. So, I went through college and university and started in computing and then started my first agency in the last year of my degree in 1996. And started an agency called Absolute Internet; we were the UK’s second fastest growing agency at the time
(03:57)
Jonathan Denwood: That is early because I decided to do a mature degree, I started in 1996, so it was pretty early days, isn’t it?
(04:07)
Mark Westguard: Yeah. Yeah. So, that’s when Netscape one was around. So, we were lucky to have tables back then, let alone anything else. And so, we used to build websites for all manner of companies like Safeway, Sony, SAP, Filofax, all kinds of different companies, and have, really, had an agency ever since then. I moved to the states in 2005, met a New Orleans girl, who Andrew has met, and then I got into the licensing game with software, probably, about nine years ago, and that, kind of, evolved then into the plugin arena, but I’ve been using WordPress for about 10 years with my team there.
So, we used to use WordPress for building our client websites, and we would build from the ground up; we’d always build custom themes, literally, from HTML to slash HTML, didn’t, really, use any off-the-shelf things, so it was all custom stuff for the clients that we worked with. And just been hammering on with WordPress ever since, so I’ve followed its development; I’m not a veteran like some people; some people have been using WordPress for much longer than that. But it was, really, my development team that introduced me to WordPress all those years ago, and then they started going WordCamps and things, and that’s where we are now.
(05:30)
Jonathan Denwood: Just a quick follow-through question. So, it was your team; because of what you said about your UK experience, I got the impression from your LinkedIn bio, that you’ve worked with some of the largest corporate entities in the world. And by my impression is that, why I’m asking you this question, they’re not absolutely that positive about open-source software, but I’m not sure if I’m right. So, to recap, it was your team that kind of influenced you into WordPress.
(06:15)
Mark Westguard: Yeah, I think back in the day when we were doing stuff for Sony and people like that, a lot of that was custom written because content management systems didn’t exist; we, actually, wrote a content management system called ADS and we sold that to a bunch of big corporates that needed that type of functionality. So, WordPress, actually, was on the scene after we were developing those content management systems. And, I guess what attracted us to WordPress was just the scalability of it, the support network around it, the community, the ability to extend it with plugins and things like that, and, obviously, that’s getting better and better every day.
So, it was a migration for us, but the problem we had with writing our own contact management system was just the immense work it took to maintain it, so by jumping into the WordPress sphere, you have a pre-made product there that clients found pretty easy to update and maintain. So, that’s, kind of, why we made the transition over to it.
(07:19)
Jonathan Denwood: So, over to you, Andrew.
(07:21)
Andrew Palmer: What’s been the most successful way that you’ve found to market WS Form and what makes the WordPress market a bit different from the previous market that you were in?
(07:30)
Mark Westguard: Yeah. So, the, well, I’ll tell you, the previous market I was in, funnily enough, was the wedding market, and we built a wedding planning and wedding website platform, which, originally, we wanted to go direct to consumer with, but quickly found that the bridal market was saturated; it’s just, trying to get a bride to use your product was now an impossible. So, we white-labeled it, and we went to Condé Nast of New York and white-labeled it and licensed it to them, and that’s the best thing we ever did. And it’s, kind of, similar in the WordPress space.
What I found is that the WordPress space is fragmented into lots and lots and lots of different communities, sub-communities of enthusiasts that liked certain products, so it might be learning management systems, it might be Elementor, it might be Divi, it might be WooCommerce. And each of these, kind of, has a circle of friends in it, that talk about it and are trusted and respected, and what I found, and if I were looking back now, this would be some advice I would give a plugin developer, is get involved in that community early on.
Don’t rely on Google AdWord and Facebook ads and things like that to promote a product in the WordPress space. For me, it didn’t work, what worked, for me, and what I, actually, enjoy more, is being part of that community and being involved in the community and helping people out. I’ll go onto various Facebook groups on a daily basis and just answer people’s questions, not about forms, just about anything and just help them out, and you’ll slowly pick up relationships and friendships that become very, very worthwhile.
I met Andrew years ago. Andrew was one of our very, very early advocates in WS Form, we had a little chat about it, I showed him it, he liked it. We did a little webinar on it, and you have to do a lot of that, you have to build a lot of content online, it takes a lot of time to do it, but as people start to use your product, Andrew’s, actually, a user of my product; he, actually, uses it on his own websites. And having those recommendations for people are just worth their weight in gold.
So, traditionally with my old business, I’ll go out, find business, build a website, and then go out and build another website, find another customer, build a website, it was just a continual cycle. But with WordPress plugins, it’s very much a community-driven marketing effort that you have to focus on.
(10:09)
Andrew Palmer: I agree. Jonathan.
(10:12)
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, thanks. Just have a quick follow-through question on that. So, do you think the WordPress, do you think, obviously, it’s open-source and there are other open-source, Joomla, Drupal, other open-source, but do you think that the WordPress community, I use that very loosely, do you think it’s quite unique in the software area, because of the amount of users and the fragmentation that you started off with your reply?
(10:52)
Mark Westguard: If you look at other platforms that are out there that aren’t, necessarily, content management, but ones like Salesforce and other big corporations like that; there’s definitely not that same community feel there. I think with WordPress, there’s a lot of free content out there that people can get their hands on and I think that has influenced the community quite a bit as well, there are a lot of good free, we have a light version of our plugin.
So, if you want to build a basic contact task form and everything else, then you have that, and I think as a result of that, you then rely on a community more to get help, whereas a paid-for product that isn’t open-source, then, typically, you’re paying for that support. So, I think it is very different from other platforms that are out there, but WordPress just has this immense following that you won’t find anywhere else. It’s huge, and I think in a way that’s good, because you have so many developers, so many people working on it.
On the flip side, it’s difficult to get your message out there as a plugin developer, because there are so many different channels out there; there’s no, kind of, one main place that you can go to say, Hey, here I am. And the community doesn’t like it if you just pop into a group and say, Hey, here’s my product. That’s not the way to do it. The way to do it is to go out there, talk to these people that are influencers, get them interested in your product, obviously, you have to have a good product in order to be able to do that.
But once they start latching on and other people start seeing it, then you start to see that, kind of, snowball. And patience is key in this game, for sure; it’s taken me several years to get to where we are, for sure. It could even be more difficult, because we’re not a plugin that’s been around for 10, 15 years like some of my competitors.
(12:47)
Jonathan Denwood: Well, kind of, my next question, which, in some ways, you covered it in your reply of the previous question, and I just want to see if you agree with this, is that you’ve been successful and the different ways you have marketed, I think you’ve covered that by building up more relationships. What your plugin, it seems very powerful, very feature rich, really, focused at the developer and, obviously, the elephant in the room is that particular market is dominated by Gravity Forms.
(13:30)
Mark Westgaurd: Yep.
(13:30)
Jonathan Denwood: And a lot of people, and I’m one of them, is grandfathered in to a Gravity Forms license, and I did it at a very large discount and it keeps me renewing it, even though, we tend to use other plugins that are, maybe, a bit more friendlier for the end-user who isn’t a developer. Has this been something that you’ve talked about and have you found methodologies, ways to overcome that or don’t you, is it you’ve just it’s such a big market, new developers entering that you’re just not bothered by it.
(14:20)
Mark Westguard: Yeah. We’re not in the game to convert Gravity Forms customers over to our product. As you said, it’s such a huge; WordPress power is what, 45% of the internet. There are plenty of new customers out there to be had. And I’ve met the team at Gravity, they’re great people and I’ve had chats with them at events, we’re like, this place is big enough for both of us. And I’ve met the developers of Fluent Forms and Ninja Forms and Formidable Forms and WPForms, they’re all great people and they’re all community-driven and we’ve never, really, had any, kind of, animosity between ourselves.
It’s just been a case of, let’s just get on with it and let’s keep pushing this sector of WordPress forward. So, really, what I’ve done, the niche that I’ve been trying to address, and the reason that we developed WS Form, is that we were a developer house. And we found some frustrations with the way other form plugins were doing certain things, such as responsive forms, such as integrations, such as the number of different plugins you had to install to get a plugin to do what you wanted it to do.
And also, we’re, really, focused on being, kind of, a no code solution, so you can build pretty much anything you want, just drag and drop and a few configurations settings, rather than having to write some PHP code to make it happen. So, we have repeaters that work, we have bi-directional integrations; we have deep integration with ACF, Meta Box, Toolset and Pods, so creating an editing post.
So, that’s, kind of, a niche that we’ve been focused on, and those are, kind of, the key things that we find our users like. I’ve just been working with a developer this morning, in fact, and he wrote me a message on Facebook and said, I just clicked on HubSpot, clicked, add new, and it pulled my form down from HubSpot and built me a form. Wow. You just saved me three hours of work. And I’m like, well, the product has just paid for itself. And that’s, really, kind of, where we focus as a.
(16:25)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah. There’s been some things about HubSpot in the Facebook groups and stuff like that, and you don’t use APIs or HubSpot have canceled some APIs to other forms or whatever, to make it more difficult. And, I assume, because I don’t want to get litigated against, but, I assume, that’s to force people to use HubSpot forms rather than anything else. I don’t know, I’m just making assumption there.
(16:49)
Mark Westguard: It may well be.
(16:50)
Andrew Palmer: Maybe it’s a different way of connecting OAuth and stuff like that, right?
(16:55)
Mark Westguard: Yeah. Yeah. It may well be that HubSpot just wanted to stop using API keys and use OAuth just because it’s a better way of connecting. And we try to use, so just in case your viewers don’t know what OAuth is. So, OAuth is when you connect with a third party service, you click connect, it’ll go to that service, such as HubSpot, you’ll login and then a page will come up saying, do you trust WS Form to connect to this or whatever service you’re using, and you just hit connect. And that’s it.
So, all the handshaking goes on behind the scenes, there’s no manual key entry. And what happened with HubSpot is that they announced that they were going to stop using API keys and focus on the OAuth side of things, and, unfortunately, that has broken some third-party for plugins, because they rely on API keys. So, we were fortunate that, I guess we developed our integration much later than they did, so we focused on the OAuth side of things, and so we’ve had some people be able to use our plugin instead, but we always go a little bit further with our integrations, we have one-click template.
So, if you’re using MailChimp for example, you go, add new, go to MailChimp, choose one of your lists, click on the template and it, actually, builds a form for you. So, all the MailChimp fields are there, the custom fields are there, all the bi-directional mapping is done, it’s, literally, one-click and it’s ready out of the box.
(18:17)
Andrew Palmer: Amazing.
(18:17)
Mark Westgate: So, other other plugins, you have to put all the fields on the form that you want and then manually map all that across, test it and everything else, but ours does that out of the box.
(18:27)
Andrew Palmer: Amazing.
(18:28)
Jonathan Denwood: Alright, that’s fantastic. We’re going to go for our break, folks. We’ll be back in a few moments and we’ll continue this great conversation. We’ll be back soon.
(18:39)
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(19:09)
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(19:44)
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(20:14)
Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back, folks. It’s been a great conversation with Mark and WS Form. I’m getting myself trained, tribe. I am a walking, talking mess and Andrew likes to point that out. So, I’m a donkey, as he says, I’m not going to go to the other part of my catchphrase there. So, let’s go straight back into this great interview. As we talked about in the first half of the show, Mark, you are a very experienced developer agency owner and you have worked with a very long list of fortune 5 companies.
Pretty broad question, and I’m going to try and keep myself tight. Have you got any practical advice for anybody, anything you can share, any insight about developers that want to attract some of these higher corporate clients or should they not bother based on your experience?
(21:21)
Mark Westguard: Yeah. I guess it depends if it’s corporate or government; the government stuff is, really, difficult to get into and be very, very careful doing that stuff. It’s, usually, an RFP process and they’ve already made their mind up, but on the corporate side, the way that I got into a lot of these corporates was by doing a small job for them for free. Honestly, you have some of these huge companies, but at the end of the day, maybe they employ 20, 30,000 people, but there’s one guy in that company who’s responsible for a bit of web development and they often need a bit of help.
I think one of the key things is not to scare these people, talk on their level, listen to what they’re into. Don’t try and scare them with new technology and stuff; a lot of these, even the marketing departments or the IT departments are pretty set in their ways and you want to work within their parameters when you’re doing work with them. It, really, depends on if you’re responding to an RFP from them or if you’re going to them and touting for business.
One of the companies I work with, they’re a hair care company in the states, huge company. And I, literally, did a $400 job for them just to try and get in the door. And I’ve done hundreds of thousands of dollars with them ever since, just by doing one job, by doing one job properly. So, I think it’s difficult as an independent developer, as a freelancer, to have those development skills, but also have those people skills, those sales skills, to be able to go into a business and sell yourself, but I think it’s a care for that.
(23:02)
Jonathan Denwood: Well, it’s one of the things I admire about you, Mark, because I haven’t known you as long as Andrew, but I observed that you have excellent people skills, but also, by your resume and what I found out, you’re, obviously, a very experienced developer and that’s an unusual skill mixture that I’ve observed in a couple of other people, but not many. Is that something that’s been said to you before?
(23:35)
Mark Westguard: It has, and I think, really, that just comes from having run a business from a very young age. I never, really, was an employee, I started business young and I had to do everything. So, overnight, you become a salesperson, an accountant, an HR person and everything, and, as your business grows, you could obviously employ people to do those things, but starting your own business is, really, challenging. It’s a lot to worry about, a lot of things to think about.
(24:06)
Andrew Palmer: So many hats to wear, and I think what I’d like to emphasize, having knowing you, knowing me, and all that, I know you quite well. I managed to stay at your place for a little while as well and we’re still friends, which is pretty cool.
(24:19)
Mark Westguard: Beer and wine helps.
(24:21)
Andrew Palmer: Quite. I think the key that you’re saying is for any business, it doesn’t matter whether you’re approaching a corporate or whether you’re approaching an individual with a tight budget. I think what it is, is if you approach the person who is the decision maker, whether they’re corporate or whatever
(24:42)
Mark Westguard: Yeah.
(24:42)
Andrew Palmer: With empathy, kindness, willingness to help, all that kind of stuff, generally, it, kind of, works out and they’ll start paying you a decent rate of pay. That’s what my feelings are.
(24:55)
Mark Westguard: Yeah. And that’s funny, when I was at university, I did a year out with a company called Sequin, who got bought out by IBM, they invented all the quad processor boards back then, really cool company to work for, but they used to have these, I don’t know, had sayings on the wall that were the ethos of the company; and one of them that has always stuck with me was, easy to do business with. And if you’re easy to do business with, people will come back time and time again, and there’s nothing more powerful than repeat business.
I, probably, haven’t acquired a new customer on my agency side for, I don’t know, three, four years, and that’s just because once you build that relationship with people, they’ll come back for more and they’ll ask you if you can do other things, not just stuff you did on that first project. Mark, can you do this? Yeah, I could do that. And we’ll build that for them or we’ll learn how to do it. So, I think be a nice person, have a good relationship with these people, you tend to build friendships with these people over the years, and that’s really valuable and they’ll come to you before they go to anybody else. So, you don’t have to be a complete business talent to make it in business, just be a nice person
(26:13)
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, well, that excludes me then. So, let’s go on to the next question. Excludes me. Let’s go on to the next question then. Look, everybody makes mistakes and we tend to learn from them. What have been some of the biggest lessons that you have learned from your mistakes?
(26:38)
Mark Westguard: I think, on the WS Form side, probably, on the marketing side, was just putting too much emphasis on paid marketing. It didn’t didn’t work for us, didn’t, really, understand the space properly in the early days, and if, and when I build a second plugin, that approach will be done very, very differently to what we did. So, the WordPress community doesn’t tend to respond well to ads thrown in their face, as is evident with the WordPress admin, with people hating ads popping up everywhere.
We keep our ads within WS Form to say, Hey, you haven’t put your license through yet or whatever, but we don’t take over half the dashboard to say, Hey, try our product. It just doesn’t work. So, I think next time we do that; we’ll focus more on community than we will when you, kind of, paid advertising. I think also more and more, more bug testing, really. When we launched WS Form, there were things that now if I look back, we would’ve done a lot more testing on the integration side of things and things like that before we went live.
On the flip side, we didn’t get the pissed off customers and it was quite nice having other guinea pigs helping us out with it, we didn’t launch a product that was inferior, but maybe if we spent a little bit more time, we would’ve reduced the number of support tickets we had on certain things.
(28:08)
Andrew Palmer: I agree with that as well, or you have a coder that lives in Alabama that you can call upon and say, what can you do?
(28:19)
Jonathan Denwood: Just as a quick observation, I think what you were saying about paid advertising. I, personally, see it as gasoline on the fire, really. I, really, think you have to get the business model, really, tight and you have to get your marketing message and you, really, have to get.
(28:41)
Mark Westguard: I think the difference between paid advertising, we’ll say Google or Facebook, we’re trying to reach a certain type of customer, which is difficult in the WordPress space. Compared to maybe paying someone to write a blog or going to a company such as WP-Tonic and doing some marketing through you guys, you have that WordPress captive audience already. So, if you’re going to spend any marketing dollars, I’ll always do it with a company that already has a captive WordPress audience.
(29:11)
Andrew Palmer: Sponsoring WordCamps, for instance, which you do as well.
(29:15)
Mark Westguard: Yeah. Yeah. So, like Porto, and we’ve sponsored several WordCamps; the most recent one was Porto, we did a special offer for Porto.
(29:24)
Jonathan Denwood: Well, my own observation of that, each WordCamp is a, kind of, micro event in its own world, some WordCamps have a good buzz and well organized; others are bit of a lost ship, really. They vary quite a lot in their feeling and their buzz, would you agree with that?
(29:47)
Mark Westguard: Yeah, I think there’s definitely been different responses that we’ve had from different events. The first one we ever did was in Dallas, Fort Worth, and very, very small, but we got such value from it, the people we met, which is great. And then we’ve done WordCamp US and not made a sale, and then we did Porto, with that one, we backed it up with a special offer, and I think by doing a, really, good special offer, we changed the dynamic of our sales, in terms of, usually, with a form plugin, you’re not going to buy it until you need it, right?
So, I’m building a site, I need to build a form, I need to find the right form for the solution, you go out, look around, pick one and buy it. When you do a really, really strong special offer or something, it almost becomes an impulse buy, and that’s what we found with Porto. So, we did a really special offer, did a bunch of demos, we managed to get people to buy it on the spot, which was great; and we met some, really, cool agencies, developers there, who loved the product. And Porto went, really, well for us, I thought Porto was incredibly well put together.
(30:50)
Jonathan Denwood: It was. Considering what they were facing, they did get some, I thought very unfair criticism, myself. I thought it was extremely unfair, some of the criticism.
(31:03)
Mark Westguard: There are always going to be critics.
(31:05)
Jonathan Denwood: Well, sometimes criticism is justified and you have to take it on.
(31:12)
Mark Westguard: Yep.
(31:12)
Jonathan Denwood: But sometimes it’s just outlandish and I thought some of the criticism, it wasn’t perfect. There were mistakes made on reflection, but people have to take into account that it was a major and a very large event and there’d been a substantial gap and people tend to criticize without taking in the other factors, it’s just easier to criticize than.
(31:42)
Mark Westguard: Yeah. Everything was put together, it was brilliantly put together. I thought it was amazing. The people that went there, as a plugin developer, if you want to meet the voices of WordPress, that’s an event to go to. And, interestingly, I’m a member of Post Status as well, and I did something on their group and we spoke about, should we sponsor WordCamp US as well? And someone said, well, you know what? You’ve just done WordCamp EU, you pretty much met everybody that’s going to go to WordCamp US anyway, it’s the same sponsors, a lot of the same key people are there. I’m going to WordCamp US, but I’m just going to go as an attendee.
(32:28)
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, well, we have to meet up for a coffee, I’ll send you an invite, and I’ll buy you a coffee and a pastry. There we go. We need to wrap up the podcast part of the show, folks. But we will be continuing the discussion; I have some other questions. You can watch the whole interview, the podcast, plus the bonus content on the WP-Tonic YouTube channel; please go over there. So, Mark, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you, what you’re up to, and WS Form?
(33:00)
Mark Westguard: If you want to learn about WS Form, just go to wsform.com, I think it’s right there. If you want to find us on Twitter, we’re ws_form, and if you want to find me on Twitter, I’m just Westguard, W E S T G U A R D.
(33:15)
Jonathan Denwood: Yes. And Mark has agreed to sponsor the show; it’s much appreciated, Mark. I will be doing my best to promote it; I, actually think you have a great form product, and I’ll be doing my best to try and promote it.
(33:34)
Mark Westguard: Thank you.
(33:36)
Jonathan Denwood: Andrew, what is the best way for people to find out more about you and what you’re up to?
(33:41)
Andrew Palmer: You can find me on Twitter at andrewpalmer. Bertha at berthaai_ or Bertha.ai.
(33:51)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s right. That’s fantastic. We’ll see you next week with another great guest; we have some fantastic guests like Mark coming up. I think you will be surprised at some of the people who have agreed to come to the show. We’ll see you next week, folks. Bye.
(34:08)
Outro: Hey, thanks for listening; we really do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group and also keep up with the latest news click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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