How Do Build & Growing Plugin Business in a Highly Competitive Sector
Here is more info on Rayhan Arif and Themeum started with a small group of people who wanted to bring about change. Since its launch in 2013, the company has grown leaps & bounds with hundreds of thousands of downloads, a huge following, and representatives worldwide. As we grow each day, we help our community be better every day.
The Main Question
#1 – Can you give us some background info on Themeum, i.e., its management and how many people work for the company maybe you can give some insights into the company’s plans for the next 12 months.
#2 – What have been a couple of the biggest obstacles that Themeum and its team have faced connected to building and marketing Tutor LMS?
#3 – What are some of the biggest and particular challenges that an IT company faces, which is based in Bangladesh?
#4 – What differences do you see connecting WordPress company to other open source cms like Joomla?
#5 – If you go back to a time machine at the beginning of your career, what advice would you give yourself?
#6 – Are there any books, websites, or online recourses that have helped you in your own business development that you like to share with the tribe?
This Week Show’s Sponsors
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Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, eLearning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS, it’s episode 731. We have a fantastic guest here, we have Rayhan Arif of Themeum joining us, they are a WordPress plugin and theme shop, neen in the space many years. I also have my co-host, Andrew Palmer here. So, Rayhan, can you give a quick 10, 20 second intro about yourself and Themeum?
Rayhan Arif: Thank you very much, as you already have said, I am Rayhan Arif. I’m working at Themeum as Assistant Vice President of Business Development, and I’ve been working here for about six years, and I am into WordPress. I love content marketing, business development, I love talking to people, especially in meeting for the purpose of building relationship,s doing some partnerships, collaboration. These are the things I, usually, do at Themeum, actually, these days.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great.
Rayhan Arif: I work for a lovely product, which is Tutor LMS.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And I have my co-host. Andrew. Andrew, would you like to introduce yourself to the new listeners and viewers?
Andrew Palmer: Hello there, new listeners and viewers and old viewers and listeners; it’s Andrew Palmer, Bertha.ai, and we write where you work and you can, hopefully, enjoy this show, because I’ve been following Themeum for a little while now and I’m going to enjoy having a chat with Rayhan.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. We’re going to be discussing how Themeum started, how large it is, we’re going to be discussing a couple of their biggest plugins, one of them Tutor LMS, and we’ll just be going into some of the challenges of running a business in Bangladesh, in the WordPress IT space. It should be a fascinating discussion. We’re going to go for a break of a couple of our major sponsors. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I’d like to just point out that we have some special offers from our sponsors, we have some great recommendations. Also, you can sign up for the WP-Tonic weekly newsletter, where I write an editorial and you’ll get a list of the recommendations and the stories that we discuss on the live roundtable show that we do every Friday at 8:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, which you can join and comment on live by going to the WP-Tonic YouTube channel. To get all of these goodies, all you have to do is go over to wp-tonic/recommendations.
Before I go into the main part of this great interview, I want to dedicate this podcast to the memory of Mahsa Amini, who died in Iran a day ago in terrible circumstances. I just want to dedicate this to her memory and may Allah have mercy on her soul. So, Rayhan, I wondered, can you give a background about Themeum, how long it’s been in the market and, basically, maybe, also give insight, if you can, of what a couple of things that you hope and the company hopes to achieve in the WordPress space in the next, maybe, 12 months?
Rayhan Arif: Thank you. Thank you so much. I’m glad that you asked this question. Themeum started in 2013, actually. And we, actually, started as a WordPress theme development company, as you can see, ‘Theme’ itself is in the name of the company. So, we started just like that and we have had some successful themes, and we have our team on wordpress.org and also on ThemeForest. And, after that, we started developing plugins and we have WP Crowdfunding, then Qubely, Tutor LMS, as we already have discussed. So, these are the plugins we have right now, and we have some wonderful themes as well, on Themeum.
So, after the start of Themeum, we, actually, grew gradually, you can say that as we started with a theme, then we, actually, understood that there’s something we can do in the arena of plugins as well. A theme is not the only thing someone requires for a website, so there’s a huge opportunity for plugin developers and for those who are looking for great functionalities, so we can do something for them. So, I think that having that in mind, I started developing plugins and I think we’re doing well, and Tutor LMS, Qubely and WP Crowdfunding plugins are the result of those efforts, you can say.
And I have not been a part of this company since the start, but in my last six years, I have seen a lot of work, tremendous work, we’re so dedicated, actually, and a product-focused company would say that we’re not good at marketing that much. You won’t hear about us a lot in many places, but when it comes to product, I think we’re doing, actually, better.
Jonathan Denwood: So, how big is the company in personnel?
Rayhan Arif: Okay. We’re close to 70 people in our company. So, you can see it’s a big company and Themeum is not the main company, actually, if I can clarify, we have some other concerns as well. You might have heard about JoomShaper. This is in another space, that is in Joomla, another cms, we have Themeum. And what we are doing right now, we are, actually, putting our sister concerns like JoomShaper, Themeum, and something else we’ll be having in the future.
We are bringing them under one roof, which is [Ollyo – 8:18], the company will be named as [Ollyo – 8:21], in the days to come, and we are building a campus in Bangladesh, Dhaka. So, we are just a month away from being shipped to that campus.
Andrew Palmer: Wow. Wow.
Rayhan Arif: So, you can expect that some wonderful development work will be going on after we, actually, get into our newly-built campus.
Andrew Palmer: That’s awesome. And you say you don’t do any marketing because, effectively, you don’t need to, you’ve been on ThemeForest and of all that, kind of, stuff, and you’re in the repository and stuff, and that’s helped you; you have a few thousand downloads of all you’re doing. What I see you’re doing is you’re diversifying, so with this coming up, with the, actual, mention of you building your own campus, you have staffing, you have HR, you have training, you have everything; so what are the biggest challenges, do you think, in running an IT company of that size and, obviously, growing?
You say you’ve only been with them six years, but, obviously, you know how much have you got remote workers and how much are people, actually, working in offices, doing the stuff. So, what are the main challenges that you’re seeing running this or being involved in this company?
Rayhan Arif: That’s a good question. As I have told you, that we have several sister concerns; one is JoomShaper or another one is Themeum. So, whenever we go for some, sort of, job circular, we have seen that people get confused whether they’re going to work for Themeum or JoomShaper. So, this is one big challenge we had previously, so having both our businesses under one roof is one of the ways that we’re, actually, going under one roof, that the people we’ll have on our team, so that they can have a clear idea of the band they’re going to work under.
And, as you have talked about the challenges, there were a lot of challenges, I think that those who were a part of this company previously, I think that our CEO and those team members saw that more than what I have, actually. I have seen the development of the company; I think that in the last six years, it had some tremendous development. During Covid, we had some, sort of, situation, a good number of people, actually, left the company and we had to go through some troubles to, actually, get back on track. I think after Covid we extended our team members to, as I already have told you, close to 70. So, those problems aren’t anymore with us, so I think that we are doing fairly well.
Andrew Palmer: Interestingly, on that. Why do you think they left you? Was it because they had to work remotely or because they couldn’t, they just decided that the pandemic’s here, I’m just going to be locked up and all locked down, and I can’t, really, focus on work? What were the main reasons for people leaving the business during the pandemic height, if you like, other than illness?
Rayhan Arif: I think that those who work in JoomShaper, I’m in Themeum, you can say. So, they have a wonderful workplace, actually, and these guys never worked remotely.
Andrew Palmer: Right.
Rayhan Arif: And the pandemic was the first time, actually, they started working remotely, and many of them got frustrated with there wasn’t any way to get back to office, they couldn’t get out of their houses as well. It was a difficult situation and one thing led to another, and some of them, actually, thought that it’s better they leave and go for some other opportunities, and some of them started their own ventures. So, I think there are different reasons, actually, that people left and I would say that experiencing the remote, I think that working remotely was one of the reasons, I would say.
Andrew Palmer: Yeah.
Jonathan Denwood: All right.
Rayhan Arif: This is something we, actually, haven’t experienced before.
Jonathan Denwood: All right. So, what are some of the biggest challenges or opportunities in IT and WordPress in Bangladesh? You’re based in Dhaka, which I think is the capital. I apologize, it’s the capital of.
Andrew Palmer: It is.
Rayhan Arif: Yes, it is the capital of Bangladesh.
Jonathan Denwood: Are there any, specific, challenges you feel in running an IT and coding shop in the WordPress, particular, to Bangladesh and in Dhaka? Maybe you’d like to give us some insight.
Rayhan Arif: Yes, there are challenges. Yes. I’d like to mention one thing, the way WordPress, actually, runs, like the community. So, as long as you’re connected to the community and do my community works so your company and community around you thrive. But in Bangladesh, what I have seen, actually; WordCamp, actually, is a great opportunity for people to gather around and do a lot of activities. So, if you talk about Dhaka, you’ll find a lot of people here who work for WordPress companies, do freelance work and do a lot of things in the WordPress space.
But when it comes to organizing events like WordCamp, I can say we are far behind, we have organized just one WordCamp in 2019. And for this, particular, reason, I would say that the WordPress community, the way it should have grown, it has not grown that way, and for that, particular, reason, whenever you go for some, sort of, circular, like you need to hire some new people, so you have to make them understand what WordPress is, actually. And Bangladesh is very deprived in companies; digitally it’s doing very good, actually.
So, we’ll go for some, sort of, circular, you have to make them understand what WordPress is, then the people will be interested to, actually, work for the companies you are, actually, offering the job from.
Jonathan Denwood: Have you got any insights? You, probably, thought about this. Why has it been difficult to build any, kind of, meetups? You seem to be suggesting it’s been, has it been because of Covid, has that, really, disrupted the whole thing to a large extent, or was there other, particular, reasons based in Dhaka and Bangladesh, in general.
Rayhan Arif: Thank you. Thank you. I think it’s Covid. The last two years, we couldn’t have any meetups or we couldn’t organize any WordCamps as well. We had some online meetups, I attended some, but I haven’t seen a lot of people interested in online meetups as well. But after Covid, I also have seen that people are, actually, joining in-person meetups and it has started growing, but Covid had a major impact on the meetups and some other big events, actually, we wanted to have in Dhaka, actually.
Jonathan Denwood: And what is the, if you don’t mind me asking, in population size, what is the size of Dhaka?
Rayhan Arif: It’s more than, I think two cores and it’s, how can I put it?
Andrew Palmer: 20 million?
Rayhan Arif: Sorry?
Andrew Palmer: 20 million.
Rayhan Arif: 20 million, exactly. 20 million.
Jonathan Denwood: 20 million.
Andrew Palmer: 20 million. Yeah, it’s a big city. It’s the Silicon Valley of Bangladesh, right? So, it’s very tech-related and there are a lot of people there. How is recruiting? How do you go about recruiting in a very closed marketplace for people, you know? Because there are lots of opportunities, the wages, obviously, are not on the same level as the UK or the US, but you still have to pay a decent amount of money for decent programs.
When you’re running, Tutor LMS, for instance, has 50,000 downloads, the free version, I don’t know how many for premium. But you have support staff, you have techies, you have people building all kind of stuff, so you have a whole range of people; support, accounting, all of that, kind of, stuff, what’s the recruitment process like for you?
Rayhan Arif: Okay. Whenever, actually, if Jonathan might be in my friend list on Facebook, we also have a circular published on social media, so what, usually, happens when there is a circular. So, we have different, sort of, job sites in Bangladesh, like bdjobs.com or any other one, probably, I shouldn’t have mentioned this one. This is the common one people go for and we have different groups for WordPress people, like WordPressian is one, it has a good number of people.
So, what we, usually, do whenever there is a circular, we publish those circulars on our website, then share it through different challenges, like the one I have mentioned, the job site and the groups also; we do these, sort of, things. Then we do, sort of, interviews, tests, and different companies follow a different, sort of, hiring process, so this is how we, actually, do.
Jonathan Denwood: All right, I think we’re going to go for our break. It’s been a great insight about Themeum and about Bangladesh and WordPress in Dhaka and Bangladesh. We have some other great questions. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. If you’re listening to this, we’re, probably, Andrew and myself are, probably, right in the middle of a major virtual summit that we are running on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday next week. It’s the Membership Success Summit with Pat Flynn as our keynote speaker with Morten Hendriksen and with Rob Roland, with a host of top names; Andrew is one of the co-hosts with Stephanie. It should be a fab affair, if you’re listening to this, you, probably, can just go over and sign up for free and join us during that day or the Friday.
To do that, you go over to themembershipsuccesssummit.com, and the link will be in the show notes. Go to the WP-Tonic website or just go straight to the website and sign up, and you can join us for the Thursday and Friday, totally, free, and watch these great presenters. So, you mentioned that you’re big in Joomla and you’ve developed your presence in WordPress. Have you noticed, is there a big difference in community or the way that you market to both CRM groups, to the Joomla crowd and the WordPresses? Is there anything, or is it very similar, the way you market or approach those two different open-source communities?
Rayhan Arif: Thank you for this question, actually. We don’t get a lot of questions on Joomla and I’m glad that you asked on this.
Andrew Palmer: Joomla guy. I started with Joomla.
Rayhan Arif: Yes, JoomShaper, right? The business we have in the space. So, there are differences, actually. So, what I have seen is that WordPress is the biggest, the community in the world, I would say, and compared to that Joomla is not, actually, that big. We used to sponsor some events like some, Joomla they’re different like the way WordPress is having, but I don’t see those opportunities for the last, actually, three to four years, so you can say that since the community is not growing that much, the opportunity for product companies has shrunk as well.
We don’t have a lot of places to market the product, what we have, actually, we have some loyal customers and when it comes to Joomla, our product is far more stable, if you could compare any product, even with the WordPress one, you would find that our product is wonderful and very stable. And so, what our customers are doing, they’re renewing, actually, every year, but Joomla guys are, really, wonderful, whatever happens in other world, actually, they love Joomla very much. And I think that JoomShaper has been a center to their love, and they’re sticking to Joomla and they’re sticking to us.
So, this way, you can say, what we’re doing, we’re, actually, sending emails, doing some, sort of, content marketing within the community we already have. So, there is not much space in Joomla to get new, actually, customers that much, but in WordPress there is a bigger opportunity. So, there are a lot of events like WordCamp, that we already have talked about, and local, international, and there are a variety of products, if you talk about a, particular, product in Joomla and WordPress, you’ll, probably, find a lot of competition in WordPress, but not one in Joomla.
And this competition is better for the product, for the customers, and for the companies, when there is no competition as a product company, you have less scope to grow and for customers you have less scope to get. So, this competition in WordPress has, actually, widen the opportunity for the product companies and the customers as well. So, I think there are many differences between the community of these two cmses.
Jonathan Denwood: All right.
Andrew Palmer: And, I think you’ve nailed it, is that Joomla is more of a condensed community, so; therefore, they need a better product, right? Because they’re not going to put up with a product that’s not going to perform, they like Joomla for the, particular, reasons; its SEO friendness, its ease of use. I love Joomla still, I have no problem with Joomla, I, absolutely, adore it, I think it’s one of the best things, but it was the core management of Joomla and the way that it was going that, kind of, led to the contraction and the fact that WordPress was coming up and lots of people were saying, go to WordPress because it’s not a problem.
And the issue of when you updated Joomla, you, actually, had to update your whole website, it wasn’t like WordPress, when you update WordPress, you update WordPress, you don’t have to rebuild your website, so there were a few issues there. But it’s nice to see that, even though, it’s a condensed marketplace for you, Joomla is still a major part of your business and that’s.
Rayhan Arif: Yes, it is. Yes.
Andrew Palmer: That’s the way it should do it, and also the WordPress community can, maybe, learn from the mistakes that the Joomla management structure had when they decided that, yeah, when we do an update it’s, actually, a new bit of software, you know? So, those were challenges that you, obviously, had to face every time you went from one to two, to three, to whatever version it’s on now.
Jonathan Denwood: So, I get the impression, and I just want to ask, that in the WordPress area, your main focus is Tutor LMS. Obviously, that is quite a competitive area in the WordPress, or in the general, because you have some very large, established learning management plugins, plus you have a host of SaaS competitors. Why that, particular, sector? What attracted it to you and your team and the company, in general, to invest a lot of energy, time, money in trying to get established in that, particular, sector?
Rayhan Arif: Why did we build Tutor LMS, is that?
Andrew Palmer: Basically, yeah.
Rayhan Arif: Thank you so much. You understand LMS market in WordPress more than a lot of people in this community, you work with membership, LMS and Iranian guys are centered to your shows, actually, WP-Tonic. and I think you understand it better. The thing I’m going to say is that WordPress has some wonderful products in the LMS niche but some are not in the wordpress.org and WebPress has a, it says that it wants to democratize the publishing and WordPress is free.
And there are some products which are premium only, and there are some products on wordpress.org; they have different functionalities that people utilize. What we have seen that we can, actually, contribute to this, particular, LMS. So, we had some ideas, actually, we analyzed that there are some, as you have mentioned, that there are some competitors in the SaaS world and some are in WordPress. So, when we had analyzed, we had some familiarities with LMS before; we have another plugin in Joomla like SP LMS, so we had some, sort of, experience in LMS before.
So, what we have seen that we contributed to this niche and we can do better, actually, in many ways. We have seen that if someone wants to build an e-learning site, a, particular, plugin isn’t being enough for him, one has to buy a main plugin from a, particular, place, and he requires a lot of extension and he or she will have to buy from different places. So, this is what he helps in. And in wordpress.org, there are some premium models; I think that there are some free plugins that we thought were quite good, but that people could have had more.
Tutor LMS is the plugin they’re having more, if you look at the free version, people can even monetize their courses without paying us a single penny, a lot of features are in there, people can start, actually. So, we had those things in mind that we wanted to build an LMS plugin that people, actually, install and they don’t require a lot of extension from different places, different vendors.
Jonathan Denwood: Well that’s, really, interesting, but I have ask the question and it is tricky, difficult.
Rayhan Arif: Yes.
Jonathan Denwood: I think every plugin shop has this, if they’re going to have a free version, which is available on wordpress.org, but also a premiere, you’ve outlined that you have a lot of functionality in the free version. But to pay your developers, to pay your wages, they have to buy the paid version, to some extent. Has it been difficult to work out or is it ongoing, what you offer in the free version and what you offer it in the paid version?
Rayhan Arif: Since the very start, actually, what we gave in the free version, we didn’t change anything that, we did not make any premium; we didn’t do anything like that. So, what you were, actually, saying that how, actually, in plain, we’re making money out of the sense, a person can create an e-learning website without paying any single but to the company I work for. If you look at the Tutor LMS features, and if you go and look at the comparison, you will understand that for a basic e-learning site, Tutor LMS has everything someone requires.
But when he wants to offer something better, advanced analytics, like in Tutor LMS free version, we have three question types in quizzes, but in premium version there are 10. So, there are some triggers in the premium version as well, if someone wants to do more with the e-learning site and I think that they should go for the premium version and they are doing that. We have seen a lot of people who started with the free version and then converted to a premium version even after a longer period of time, when they’re comfortable, actually.
And in the SaaS world, you can offer them a free trial, but in WordPress, the way GP works, there isn’t much scope for a free trial system. So, the freemium version on org is something that we rely on for people to explore our product, then whenever they, actually, think that it is good in the freemium version, and if they think that this is the right time for them to get the premium.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, I think you just made, I’m a slow learner, but you’ve made a, really, insightful point there. Because in the SaaS world, a lot of SaaS companies have a free product and they face the same problems, don’t they? They have to provide a certain degree of functionality, but on the other end, if it’s too much, nobody’s going to upgrade to the paid version. So, in some ways, it’s exactly the same in the WordPress, it’s just slightly different, you have a free plugin on wordpress.org, and then you have your Premier, so slightly different language, but, really, fundamentally the same problem.
Andrew Palmer: I think you’re doing it right, you can’t have drip, you haven’t got a front-end builder, you haven’t got course preview or course attachment options, you can’t issue certificates in the free version. So, as people.
Rayhan Arif: Free version, exactly.
Andrew Palmer: As people grow their learning management system, they can get out a basic course that they can money monetize, which is great. Once they’ve made some money, they can sign up as an individual for only $150 a year, that’s not too bad. You have installation services as well, because you have so many staff, you have a big crew there, 60, 70 people working with you. So, for the basic user, if I pay you $149, you’re going to install the system for me, right? On my hosting.
Rayhan Arif: Yes, I do. Yes.
Andrew Palmer: Which is a great offering. So, you have for agencies, if you’re an agency wanting to go into LMS, $299 a year gets you five installations, right?
Rayhan Arif: Yes.
Andrew Palmer: So, tell me how that works, once I’ve done my five installations, but then I’ve done a year, my next year, do I get another five installations or is that too cheeky?
Rayhan Arif: For agencies, we haven’t seen people requesting for the installation and agencies can do that, actually, fairly well. So, what we have seen that for some people coming from different SaaS, like those who don’t have WordPress experience before, these are the people who, actually, ask for the installation. Those who know WordPress, installation is not big a deal for them, actually. We haven’t experience people asking for the installation services again and again, we don’t get this request much, actually.
But since there are people who, actually, don’t have WordPress experiences that much and even experience our plugin before, so for them we’re, actually, having it. This is not something that is figuring them to go for the premium, I think that this is not a big deal for them, but we have it in case people need it.
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, that’s great. I think we’re going to, before we wrap up the interview, Rayhan, how can people find out more about you and more about the company?
Rayhan Arif: If someone wants to find me, on Twitter it’s, RayhanArif07, my Twitter handle. And for business purposes, my mail is firstname.lastname@example.org. And if someone wants to find the products, actually, we work for; themeum.com is the website they should be looking for.
Andrew Palmer: Perfect.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s fantastic. And Andrew, how can people find out more about you and your thoughts?
Andrew Palmer: Wow. They can go to @arniepalmer on Twitter. They can go to LinkedIn, search me up there, but, obviously, Bertha.ai. In the next week, you’re going to get sick of my face because I’ll be co-presenting with Stephanie Hudson, themembershipsuccesssummit.com.
Jonathan Denwood: You will do. We have a fab group of speakers, though, haven’t we, Andrew?
Andrew Palmer: We have, crazy. Crazy. I’m looking forward to it. Sitting in my chair, I need a new cushion.
Jonathan Denwood: You will do.
Andrew Palmer: I’ve been sitting here for a few hours and it’ll be great, but Rayhan, absolute pleasure to meet you and I’ve followed your.
Rayhan Arif: Thank you so much, it’s my pleasure as well. It’s been wonderful talking to you and I loved answering all of those questions.
Jonathan Denwood: Oh, you’ve done a fantastic job, I know it’s a little bit late for you, but you’ve given some great insight about the company and about WordPress in Bangladesh and Dhaka, so, I think it’s been an interesting interview. We’re going to wrap it up now, we’re going to see you next week, I’m back trying to organize this summit for the rest of this day, which is just such fun, such fun. And we won’t see you next week because we’re going to be at the summit, but we will be back the following week. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye.
Rayhan: See you soon.
Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we, really, do appreciate it. Why not visit the Mastermind Facebook group and also to keep up with the latest news, click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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