What Are The Major Ups & Downs of Being a WordPress Plugin Entrepreneur?
Embark on a revealing exploration of what it truly means to be a WordPress entrepreneur in our thought-provoking video presentation. Experience the exhilaration of building your empire from scratch alongside the gut-wrenching moments when success seems elusive.
Discover invaluable insights from industry experts who share their experiences navigating through triumphs and tribulations within WordPress entrepreneurship. Uncover hidden gems of wisdom that can shape your path toward prosperity.
#1 – Jason, what were some of the main opportunities that attracted you and Kim to get involved with LifterLMS?
#2 – What are some of the main things you want to improve connected to LifterLMS in the next couple of years?
#3 – What are some significant challenges you see WordPress faces now?
#4 – What have one or two decisions you have had to make connected to your WordPress plugin-based business?
#5 – What have been some of the biggest online influences or personal mentors connected to your business career development?
#6 – If you return to a time machine at the beginning of your career, what essential advice would you give yourself?
This Week Show’s Sponsors
Zoho: Zoho.com
Sensei LMS: Sensei LMS
LifterLMS: LifterLMS
LaunchFlows: LaunchFlows
Episode Transcript
Introduction
Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress e-learning and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.
[00:00:00.330] – Jonathan Denwood
Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic show. This week in WordPress and SAS, we’ve got a great special guest, somebody that I’ve been wanting on the show for a while. It was great news that he had some spare time to have a chat with us on the WP-Tonic show. We’ve got Jason Coleman, the joint founder of Paid Membership Pro and now also a partner in Lifter LMS. So, Jason, thanks for coming on the show. I think we’re going to have a great discussion about why you decided you and your wife to become part of the Lifter LMS membership management team.
[00:00:59.030] – Jason Coleman
It also is a membership plugin.
[00:01:01.890] – Jonathan Denwood
It all gets very confusing. And we’ll also be talking about the things you’ve learned about being an entrepreneur in the WordPress plugin space with Paid Membership Pro. Should be a great show. So, Jason, would you like to give the listeners and viewers a quick intro?
[00:01:22.650] – Jason Coleman
Sure. Thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate it. I watch this a lot. It’s fun to hang out with you and Kurt. So, yeah, I’m Jason Coleman, co-founder of Paid Memberships pro membership plugin for WordPress. And I also co-authored a book for O’Reilly building Web apps with WordPress with Brian Messenlaner. And so Kim and I have been pushing WordPress to the limits for a while. We did consulting work in the WordPress space from 2006 through 2015 before we went full-time on Paid Memberships Pro. And so I’m just a huge fan of Open Source and WordPress and pushing it and trying to make good products that help people get paid. That’s really our mission. And why we focus on Paid Memberships Pro is we enjoy that the users of that plugin and our customers make a living off it, or the associations and nonprofits that use our software make money that they use to serve their mission and change the world. So we really feel like we’re I don’t get like really high browser in the beginning, but we’re trying to help people get paid with their WordPress sites.
[00:02:30.530] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. Where’s the gray hair? You look too relaxed.
[00:02:35.810] – Jason Coleman
Is it? That’s the touch-up, probably.
[00:02:38.290] – Jonathan Denwood
All right. There you go. If you really boldly WordPress that lord, you get some gray hair. I also got my great co-host, Kurt. Kurt, would you like to introduce yourself to the new listeners and viewers?
[00:02:51.180] – Kurt von Ahnen
Sure thing, Jonathan. My name is Kurt Von Onen. I own a small agency called Manana Nomas and we really focus on membership and learning sites there. I also work with WP-Tonic and Lifter LMS. So it’s fun to be on the show today.
[00:03:03.790] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s great. Before we go into the meat and potatoes of this great interview, I’ve got a couple of messages from our major sponsors. We will be back in a few moments.
[00:03:13.620] – Jason Coleman
Folks, are you looking for ways to make your content more engaging? Sensei LMS by Automatic is the original WordPress solution for creating and selling online courses. Sensei’s new interactive blocks can be added to any WordPress page or post. For example, interactive videos let you pause videos and display quizzes, lead generation forms, surveys and more for a 20% discount for the tribe, just use the code wptonic all one Word when checking out, and give Sensei a try today.
[00:03:47.690] – Jonathan Denwood
Hi there, folks. It’s Jonathan Denwood here and I want to tell you about one of our great sponsors, and that’s zolo.com. If you got a WordPress website, a membership website, and you’re looking to link it with a great financial management package, zolo can provide this solution. So all your bookkeeping needs are done through Zolo. If you need new inbox email functionality and you don’t want to pay the high charges that Google will charge you, zolo offers a great email inbox platform. They’ve got over 50 apps and services that all integrate fantastic with WordPress at great value levels, and they almost always offer a fully functioning free product as well. So it’s just amazing value. Also, if you’re a WordPress developer or agency owner, zolo are looking for great partnerships in the WordPress space. To get all this information. All you have to do, folks, is just go over to zolo.com and they have the products that you’re looking for. Thank you so much, Zolo, for supporting WP Tonic and the machine membership shows. It’s much appreciated. We’re coming back, folks. Also, just want to point out that we’ve got a fantastic curated list of the best WordPress plugins.
[00:05:25.630] – Jonathan Denwood
So if you’re building a website for a client and you’re looking for a specific niche or need, instead of having to trawl the Internet and all the crappy articles, you can find a great created list. And you can find all this by going over to Wptonic.com deals. Wptonic. Wptonic. Comdeals. And also you’ll find some great special offers from our major sponsors. What more could you ask for? I suppose quite a lot, but that’s all you’re going to get from that particular page. So let’s go into the great interview. So, Jason, it was fantastic news to hear that you and your team and your wife were joining the Lifter LMS crew. So what were some of the opportunities and what attracted to you to become part of the Lifter LMS crew?
[00:06:35.470] – Jason Coleman
I think there are a couple of primary things. So one is I’ve been on the lookout for a second business to get into, not just in the WordPress space. I was looking at IRL real-life businesses like starting a float tank franchise or opening car washes or something, or other technology businesses, things we’re talking about with our friends. And that was kind of motivated by my goal with the paid memberships. Row business right now is to step back and level up my team so they can take care of more of the day-to-day. And I’m like, ideally, I’d be coming in once a week to be like, how’s everything going? And I can help out with this and work on the business instead of in the industry. And so in my mind, I wanted to use it as a force function. So it’s like, hey, if I have a second business, I have to of course, I can always be helpful actually developing or writing content or doing things in the industry. I was looking for a second business to kind of force me to do that. And I forget where I read about it, but I think when that happens, I’m married to the Paid Memberships Pro business.
[00:07:41.890] – Jason Coleman
It was my first business girlfriend, in a sense. And so it’s like, decisions are really tough and feel super personal. And I think if you so anyway, I wanted that experience. And then the opportunity came up with Chris. Like Chris. And I Chris Badgett at Lifter. We’ve been friendly. We share notes and talk shop about business. And so when kind of the opportunity arose, I was like, oh, that would be perfect. I understand your business and how it works, and it’s very similar to this one. And it would be an opportunity to work with, like, specifically. Another part of that is I think it’s rare. I’m finding that these good business operators, like like, I’m maybe one, but really, Kim carries the team on Payments Pro, and Chris carries it at like, it’s hard to find these folks. And so from the outside, I suspected I was like, looks like Chris would be a good guy to work with and kind of get stuff done on the business level, and it’d be good to work closer with him. And now that I’m in the business, that’s definitely the case. It’s proven itself. So those were the two main things, really, was kind of get a second business because it would force me to kind of push myself towards how I want to interact with the businesses and opportunity to work closer with Chris and some exciting product challenges then.
[00:08:56.810] – Jonathan Denwood
So I totally understand what your attraction in working with Chris, but was there also something that really, in business terms, attracted you to the learning management system, space to membership, obviously, because of your original company, you know a lot about membership, so I could see the synergy being very attractive to you.
[00:09:27.430] – Jason Coleman
Yeah, definitely. I think, like, a few years ago, we added these surveys on the Paid Memberships Pro site. Like, what are you using your website for? Or what’s your use case? And we knew a lot of people were building courses with Paid Memberships Pro and integrating with Lifter and LearnDash and the other LMS plugins. Or we have a lightweight courses add-on that just basically builds like a CPT. So you have courses and lessons. And it was always meant like it’s like, hey, just like, charge for access to a PDF or charge for access to a post, or if you want a few structures is good, but an LMS is like a whole ass plugin. Are we allowed to curse a little bit?
[00:10:09.810] – Jonathan Denwood
As Kurt would tell you, I can curse, okay? I just have periods. I think for the extended period. Kurt my swearing has died down, okay, quite a bit. But I have moments where it’s a filthy stream.
[00:10:26.910] – Jason Coleman
Jason yeah, but people would say, like, hey, you should build your own LMS. And I’m like, that’s a whole ass business. Do you know what means? Like, people say, yeah, just do this in a weekend and you’re so we got that feedback from the survey on our site that it’s something like half of our customers either are directly focused on courses or also want to offer courses alongside their membership. And so we’re like, this is a big thing, and we need to there’s a lot of pressure. I keep like, hey, use these other plugins. And partnering with the plugins is difficult from the outside because stuff is our plugins work together, but they also compete. So it’s kind of like they’re also a membership plugin. We’re also a membership plugin. And so that’s the case with every other LMS right now. So it’s hard, like, the business incentives to get the software to work together well and get both companies to maintain it and agree on the terms and who gets the money. That stuff’s complicated. So there was some of that in our minds. For Paymashes Pros, I think we need to build out our course offering more, but I’d rather not.
[00:11:29.930] – Jason Coleman
So that was, like, degree, like, oh, Lifter LMS, like, okay, now, because there’s a financial we have a stake in Know it’s we and we can manage the relationship more closely. Let’s try to make it so our membership plugin works really tightly with then, you know, it works for both users and both businesses. So there’s definitely some of that.
[00:11:49.080] – Jonathan Denwood
Great. Over to you, Kurt.
[00:11:51.570] – Jason Coleman
Hey, Jason. It’s cool to see you on this now. I’m privy to some of the stuff.
[00:11:57.590] – Kurt von Ahnen
In the background and some of the really cool changes and influence that you and Kim have had on the know, our daily meetings, some of the scrumming stuff that we know, some of the ideologies that you brought to the team, and how the team’s expanded. But a lot of folks listening just don’t know, like, they don’t know what’s going on.
[00:12:15.760] – Jason Coleman
Right.
[00:12:16.080] – Kurt von Ahnen
So what are some of the main things that you’d like to see improved with Lifter LMS? And I’d like to add to that question, like, back end and front end, like, things that people don’t see and things that people do.
[00:12:34.430] – Jason Coleman
I think about it, definitely. I think Lifter is the best LMS option for WordPress and just, like, Paymerships Pro, the free version is off the charts good and better than the premium offerings. So I think that was from kind of a marketing and positioning standpoint was like, hey, let’s lean into free. And it’s kind of ridiculous. Like if you use Paid Memberships Pro for your membership and Lifter for your courses, they’re both free, and it’s a crazy amount of value. There really aren’t other plugins on the market that give you that much value out of the box off the repository. And so I think it’s like leaning into that. It’s not like kind of I’m doing that because we have to or because I kind of want to, but I’d rather people pay for it. No, no, like, let’s be the best free offering and really push that and get exposure for it. So in practice then, there’s a lot of little things we’re doing from the UI perspective, like you talked about. I think Lifter, the software needs an accessibility pass on the front end and the back end of WordPress. We recently had an update in Paid Memberships Pro where we took a lot of the learning.
[00:13:40.140] – Jason Coleman
We got back from an accessibility audit that we did Alex Stein and Amber heard, I think. And I forget the name of the put-in-the-show notes, I forget the name of their show that we went on and got like, a really good accessibility audit. But we want to take those learnings and apply them to lifters. So that brings it up to date, accessibility-wise. What they were doing too, on the platform level is to make Lifter easier to use in a modular way. So I think in reality Lifter is too good because it’s like an end-to-end solution. It’s like we have the membership and the e-commerce and we have access and we have courses and we have those other features on top and I think that’s really good for the Lifter user who’s buying into all of it. But I think the average kind of WordPress site owner is like, I like using WooCommerce, I like using Paid Memberships Pro, I like using this feature for Directories, I like using this feature for community platform conversations on my site. And I think because Lifter does it all, it’s harder to use it in a modular way.
[00:14:43.960] – Jason Coleman
So the first step of that is what we launched with PM Pro. Two point twelve that just went out and some updates along the Lifter side to enable it, where if you activate Lifter while you’re a paid memberships pro user and you activate Lifter, it actually hides a lot of the functionality of Lifter and assumes like, oh, you’re comfortable using paid memberships pro to handle these pieces. And there’s an option in the wizard so you can opt out and get all the features if you so I think we’re going to figure out that model of PM Pro and Lifter and see how that works and then try to apply that. How can we give the full service? Because a lot of customers want the end end solution and it’s easier for us to just manage things ourselves, but it’s like, how can we make it also modular so that you could know lifter in to an existing site without shaking things? No. Sweet. Jonathan, over to you.
[00:15:32.780] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, I just got a quick follow through question because I think you touched on something that’s really tricky but really important, not only for your own business, Jason, but for the future, WordPress. Really? Because it’s really tricky what you’ve just outlined, because you could go and I’m not having a go at anybody because everybody has to choose their own business road. So I totally understand it. You could want to go down the road with Lifter LMS and develop what I call a WordPress wall garden. And what I mean by that, Jason, is something like Fry Themes or Access Alley, where I totally understand why the founders and the owners went down that path. But also I think the consequences of going down that path is that you end up with the worst of WordPress and the worst of SAS combined. But on the other hand, I think personally, with a plugin like Lifter trying to provide more of an environment that some of the leading SaaS providers around, landing pages, marketing optimization is important, but in the same breath, avoid a wall garden environment. Do you think there’s anything to what I’ve just said? And have you been thinking about this yourself?
[00:17:25.070] – Jason Coleman
Yeah, totally. I think the incentives in how the WordPress community and the marketplace work push companies and users in that direction. And I feel like I’m fighting against it because at the top of the show, I said I like helping people get paid, and I focus on how am I going to make the best software first and then, hey, if we have really good software, we can build any kind of business we want on top of it. But the business incentives are outweighing, the open source incentives a lot of the times for these relationships. So for like, the way Lifter and Paid Memberships Pro integrate now, I’m saying this is a great thing, but in reality, Lifter charges a premium add on. If you want to use WooCommerce or Stripe or PayPal to charge for access to things, you pay Lifter a couple of $100. But now you just use Pay Memberships Pro for free. And we had the same issue with the Pay Memberships Pro. WooCommerce Add on has like 10,000 users. I really reluctantly built that, but a bunch of years ago was like, all right, the customers want this, let’s build it.
[00:18:29.220] – Jason Coleman
And some percentage of those customers are doing really clever things with the WooCommerce site where they’re like, I want a membership and a store next to each other, and I have discounts for members and I’m kind of using it. But a lot of people are just using it because now I don’t have to pay $200 a year for the members plugin and $200 a year for the subscriptions plugin. I can use paid memberships for free. So it’s kind of like when the business or like the software is like, hey, here’s some free software that this other company is charging for. Our relationship with WooCommerce is falling apart around that plug. They’re not going to support it. Why should they? This cost us money, I don’t care. And it’s like, okay, it’s our common users, but it’s 10,000 users versus 6 million WooCommerce users. And if they’re not on WPAY or whatever, I think these little sites are kind of like they’re getting left out. And again, like you said, you’re like I’m not saying it’s wrong, like the businesses to choose different models because it is just like the business has to do what it thinks is best.
[00:19:28.470] – Jason Coleman
It’s just the incentives are in place. There there’s no force in the WordPress community to say this is what we expect, and get companies in line from the top down, but whether they want to or not, TBD, I guess, does that result in worse software and worse experiences for users? It definitely fragments things and creates those wall gardens where like, are you using this platform or this platform within WordPress? Sorry, go ahead.
[00:19:55.120] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, sorry about that. It’s just that I don’t understand why somebody like Five went with a wall garden solution. It was also linked to having a page builder available and they want you to promote that. I totally understand it. I understand because you get more control, you get a unified interface, you cut down on support, but you end up with Assassin WordPress basically, because then depending on how you handle it, you exclude the ability of other leading plugins to plug into your wall garden and there’s different ways of handling that. So it is tricky, isn’t it? Because if you don’t go down the know that’s one of the things that I admire about Chris and Nifta LMS, because in some ways it offered a lot of functionality and it offered a lot of inbuilt, but it never went down the full wall garden route. To my mind. He still developed relationships and enabled other leading plugins to log in, to latch into the lifter ecosystem, if that’s making sense. Would you agree?
[00:21:29.580] – Jason Coleman
I’ve just outlined yeah, totally. And it’s little things like making sure we code things the WordPress way so it’s easy to find the filter and then supporting and definitely when another product company says or we find out a plugin doesn’t work, I know on the Lifter side and the payments just pro side, our support teams take responsibility. It’s like if you’re using our software and something doesn’t work, I’m not going to tell you to go to the host or go to the other product unless we often share. Like it might be faster to ask them. But in reality, like I said, they’re not necessarily incentivized to fix it. They’re like, you should just use our thing, what our users want. We’ll build the compatibility files and tweak our code to make it work as much. It’s hard for the longest time. I know there’s like a story in this. Famously, on the Paymerships Pro team, everyone asked us to build our own login page. And this is a little bit like the problem with WordPress. A little bit. So everyone’s like, you should build a login page, and WordPress has a login page. You’re good.
[00:22:34.220] – Jason Coleman
I want it. On the front end, there’s a really good plugin called Theme My Login. It would just put your login on the front end. It worked great. Like, just use the plugin. I don’t want to install extra plugins. I’m like, that’s a whole ass plugin. Like that guy, every time there’s a login update, he fixes it. It’s a good plugin, right? So just use it. We had, like, negative reviews that are like, is this really a membership plugin that doesn’t even have a login page? And it’s like, I’m hitting my head. And eventually I gave in. I was like, all right, let’s do it. Let’s build a login page. So now we build our own version of the login page. We try to make it like the default WordPress page, but on the front end, it has all this extra logic. So, like, if you’re using WooCommerce login or Lifter login or GoDaddy, inserts some code in WP engine, and Jetpack wants you to auto log in with your WordPress.com account. So it’s all this developer time to rebuild a login page that works with everything, and it still fails. And when it fails, we get blamed.
[00:23:25.720] – Jason Coleman
And it’s really like, oh, your host is inserting something into an Mu plugin. That’s why it broke. But because it’s our login page now, it’s a big headache. But the incentives are there that we have to do this, we have to own this because everyone wants it. And now every plugin probably like, I don’t know what it is. Like, a quarter of the plugins with more than 100,000 installs have a login page. And it’s like, for this should be in WordPress core potentially in a way, and everyone should use it, and the users should be educated. But there’s a lot of developer time kind of wasted. Everyone building their own version of this stuff because either they want more control over it so they can support it, they want it to work a certain way, or they want to make money, like, we don’t charge for our login pages. But there’s other stuff like that where it’s like, oh, I know there’s another version, but if I build it, I can charge for it. So that stuff’s going on in the WordPress, and it’s a lot of extra work on top of some other things in the WordPress space.
[00:24:24.530] – Jason Coleman
That are causing extra work. Like every time you build a feature, it has to work as a short code and a widget and a block and an elementor panel. And so it’s like the developers are swamped with this extra work to make sure everything works every way that the customers expect it. And I think it’s working out okay, but it definitely makes it harder for younger developers to get in and younger products to get in, I think. And it might be like a kind of tech debt weight that eventually starts to weigh the platform down and makes.
[00:24:59.070] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, I just got a quick comment because this has been my secondary question and I’m going to let Kirk answer the next question. The only way I can see this really one of the possible solutions is that the leading WordPress premier plugin providers really choose to have their own association and have a guidance around API access and work together in building. So this duplication. So they agree, obviously you’re all in competition and that competition overlaps either very directly or to some level, but you have to agree that it’s the best for everybody, that there’s an association and it has guidance about the quality of the coding and the API. I know it’s probably pie in the sky, but I actually think that would benefit a lot of people financially and in a lot of time that’s wasted. But it would also mean that you’re not excluding any new players. You get a blue tick and people know it meets certain security encoding standards and it also has the benefit of having some agreed level of API and access. Is this making any sense or do you think I’m just talking a load of crap there?
[00:26:40.750] – Jonathan Denwood
You can say you’re talking crap.
[00:26:45.170] – Jason Coleman
I think it makes a lot of sense. And there’s been some efforts and some we’ve thought about for sure, but because of the incentives in place and because the main business that owns the platform that our plugins are hosted on isn’t on board.
[00:26:59.430] – Jonathan Denwood
But they never will.
[00:27:00.680] – Jason Coleman
They never will be. One of my pet peeves now is the stats that got taken off and we used to not even get the activation stats. We would guess them based on the chart of growth and that was like our hack. But it feels like table stakes. I think other soft platforms that people are using your plugin, we have the stats, and Matt Mullenweg shouldn’t be the only person with access to those stats. For example, like I said, our goal is to make the best software and we would measure that by active installs. But I actually can’t get that count accurately. And so I can’t even make those decisions that would cost me money at the expense of I would get installs, but cost me money. Which is like, why would you expect other businesses to do that? But you can’t even do that because you can’t get accurate stats. So that’s just like one little thing, all these things on top of each other. It’s like an uphill battle to get the It’s real money. I think when you start going down that path and you get any three plugin companies, like, here’s what we can agree on.
[00:28:03.290] – Kurt von Ahnen
Cool.
[00:28:03.530] – Jason Coleman
We’re all going to use the same login page. Great, I’ll take the code out. But then the customer is like, why’d you take your login out? I don’t like it. They’ll be upset. And then there’s these other things we don’t agree on where it’s like, well, I’m not willing to give up whatever my gateway access because that’s how we make money. A lot of plugins give you some for free and then charge. It makes sense, business sense. If my customers are making money, I make money. And you’re not a SaaS. It’s not that easy to take like a percentage of sales. The users don’t want it. So you charge for the gateway integration. It would take like, top down effort to really enforce and also make up, I guess, in a way like, okay, you can’t do your business this way, but this is how you should make money on this software. I don’t even know if it’s the best. I think probably the model. I’m having conflicts, personal conflicts around this. How do I think about my business? I think it’s like lean in the capitalism and make the money and let the people get the scraps.
[00:29:09.270] – Jason Coleman
And I think that’s the model that a lot of these companies have. And it’s kind of like either go with it or you go against it. And we’ll do the best we can to make sure. Like I said, as many people as possible can use our plugin. Our software is free, our codes on GitHub for free, and it’s modular, so you can choose to use it, but we’re not going to lock it out. We’re going to do what makes sense to keep things integrated. But I think it’d be really hard to corral all these product companies into.
[00:29:38.240] – Jonathan Denwood
Working if it was done. Yeah, I totally see where you’re coming from.
[00:29:42.920] – Jason Coleman
Maybe something maybe smarter people have the answers or it’ll naturally happen. I don’t know.
[00:29:49.950] – Jonathan Denwood
I think it’s really having a level where you understand it’s only so far that concept could go, and it would only be recommendations and a certain amount and you get a kind of blue tick. Use that metaphor and there’ll be some benefit to it. But on the other hand, you got to understand, if people did join that kind of association model, it’s only so far it could go because otherwise it would just end up in a bit of a shit show, really, and just waste a lot of people’s time. But I think you’re totally insights back over to you, Kurt.
[00:30:35.850] – Kurt von Ahnen
All right, well, it looks like you.
[00:30:37.000] – Jason Coleman
Guys kind of covered what are the.
[00:30:38.450] – Jonathan Denwood
Significant challenges in the WordPress i. Think we had mine, but you need to ask the question to get Jason’s. I think listen, but I think they need to hear.
[00:30:55.490] – Kurt von Ahnen
Know. And it’s almost like in my mind, there’s a couple of things that are blending together over this question because one of the questions earlier was like, what are some of the main things you’d like to see improved in Lifter LMS for the next couple of years? And we were kind of talking know, culture and user interface, but we didn’t discuss anything. I want to see this. And then you started talking about login pages and crazy stuff, right? And then it says, what are some significant challenges that WordPress faces now? And we’re on the cusp of 6.2 came out, then 6.3 came out and they changed all the menus for 6.2. And we just released Skypilot at Lifter LMS, which is a full site editing theme. And I’m thinking about all this development going on and you had already alluded.
[00:31:42.700] – Jason Coleman
To whatever you make, developers have to.
[00:31:47.010] – Kurt von Ahnen
Keep tweaking it to make sure that it keeps working.
[00:31:50.050] – Jason Coleman
So could you kind of, I don’t.
[00:31:52.160] – Kurt von Ahnen
Know, maybe elaborate on what are some of these significant challenges that you think people in WordPress are facing right now in keeping up with all these changes?
[00:31:58.840] – Jason Coleman
And mean like that is one, we have to test everything, like editing on the front end, editing on the back. It like I said, short codes, widgets blocks, edit with Elementor. I don’t know the exact market share of Elementor, but some of the metrics that we get based on users who opt in is like it’s at least a third of WordPress sites, potentially. And it’s potentially and then if you look at the classic editor is installed on a third of WordPress sites. And so you’re like, oh, Elementor might actually have more market share than Gutenberg in a like, we have know make it work and do a lot of mean. Honestly, we just hire more developers and we maintain it because that’s what we have to do to keep the software working. I think another challenge related to that is that’s been a problem recently and will keep becoming more of a problem is like, security. And so there’s been like a wave of security reports for big high profile plugins. No one’s immune. Like the biggest plugins are getting dinged. And we had a security issue in December for Pay Memberships Pro that was kind of bad.
[00:33:08.240] – Jason Coleman
And then there was an update that someone used it in a different way. It’s even worse. So we already pushed the update out in December, but it’s like we had to push notifications into the platform. Like, you actually have to update because people are doing really bad stuff with this. And I think there are some developers who are like, this is easy, dude. Just like sanitize early, escape late, do what you’re supposed to use, standards unit test. And it’s like, I guess I think whenever a developer says something’s easy, it’s like a red flag. And I’m like, it’s not really that easy. And we’re all spending our time maintaining our login pages. We need more time to work on security. And also it’s like the way the security issues are interrelated. So it’s the attack vector. So a security issue in its own context isn’t that big a deal. My favorite one is we have to escape the content that comes from translators. So if a translator accidentally puts in a closing div in their translation and we don’t escape that, it breaks your site. But if they accidentally put in like half of a JavaScript and then this other vulnerability is used to put the other half of the JavaScript.
[00:34:19.170] – Jason Coleman
The issue isn’t like us as a plugin company, we can do as much as we can, but it’s a bigger issue than just one product. And so I feel the Community Summit is coming up next week. Before we’re camp us, I hope that we can talk about some of these things where the plugins team does a good and they’re revamping their personnel, but they do a good job of telling you, hey, there’s a security issue. The security companies do a good job of responsible disclosure for the most part. But I feel like it would be good to actually spend some of the foundation money hiring security people to not just notify you of the issue but actually fix it for you. That would be awesome. And here’s the fix and proactively. We’re going to get everyone else to do this and train people how to write more secure code and kind of be more involved because we should be responsible for the code we put out. And it really is on us. But it showed like the biggest companies WooCommerce, list them ourselves, these security issues get out and it’s kind of like if the companies with the most money and the most developers are having, you know what I mean, there’s something else going on.
[00:35:24.460] – Jason Coleman
So I’d like to see more foundation support around security issues on the plugin side. So there’s a lot of security focus on the core plugin for sure. And it’s like, hey, help us on the plugin side. Well, the smaller plugins too, like I’m worried about they don’t have someone who can go in and fix it.
[00:35:39.950] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, you’re so right to point that out and thank you. Because it was something that was really utilized to attack utilizing WordPress a while ago, wasn’t it? It’s open source, it’s not secure, and I think in a lot of It departments and a lot of things that died down to a certain degree. I think it’s still prevalent to some extent, but it died down. But if this continues, that ugly dragon will reappear quite rapidly. And really the WordPress community really want to make sure that doesn’t happen, does it?
[00:36:22.010] – Jason Coleman
Would you agree on if it hurts everyone if we get this black mark and it literally hurts everyone. When there’s a hack at a host, the product companies deal with it. When there’s a hack in a plugin, then the hosts deal with it. You know what I mean? We have these wall gardens, but we’re all kind of using each other’s stuff and so you can’t just say don’t use that plugin or use these. With the advent of AI and AI enhanced security research, it’s already in use and it’s just going to make it more of these vulnerabilities are going to be found and they’re more subtle and stuff like that and it’s not on the list of all the things we said. I just remember when I started it was like, oh, edit the PHP file and I did something and I put it in a plugin and I can sell it. Sell access one person. I mean, I always had Kim, but literally like lots of cases of one person building something on WordPress that’s really so like now they have to know PHP and JavaScript and all the frameworks and they have to build it for all the different use cases.
[00:37:29.800] – Jason Coleman
And the security is not as obvious as some people think. And there’s these subtle attack vectors and it’s in spam. It’s kind of like when you put a site online. You know, like you plug your PC into the Internet and it’s like if you don’t have antivirus and it’s a PC, like you’re hacked within ten minutes. It’s the same thing with the WordPress site. Like if you don’t have a firewall and all these spam preventative measures, people start testing credit cards on your checkout form and it’s overwhelming for the single. I’d like to see the community build the infrastructure and man like add human power to it to really help out different plugins so we can just opt into it and be taken care of a little bit.
[00:38:10.830] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, I think there were great points. Thanks for that, Jason. We’re going to go for our middle break folks. It’s been a fascinating discussion. We’ve got some great questions when we come back. We will be back in a few moments, folks.
[00:38:24.770] – Kurt von Ahnen
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[00:38:28.530] – Jason Coleman
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[00:38:53.410] – Jason Coleman
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[00:39:29.740] – Jonathan Denwood
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[00:39:31.850] – Jason Coleman
Enjoy the rest of your show.
[00:39:34.470] – Jonathan Denwood
We’re coming back, folks. Before we continue with this great interview, I just want to point out if you’re looking for a great WordPress hosting partner and a support and just a partner in general, and you’re building a membership website or community website on WordPress for a client, why don’t you look at becoming a partner with WP Tonic? We got over 15 years experience. We specialize in membership and community website. So if you got a build out and you’re looking for a great hosting provider, but much, much more, somebody that will consult and help you if you need help in the build out, we offer a lot of value and you can find out more about becoming a WordPress Wptonic partner by going over to Wponic.com Slash Partners. Wptonic.com slash partners and sign up. And we can have a zoom and we can see how we can really help you in building out your client websites. So on we go. Yeah. Thank you for that, Jason. When I was actively developing somebody that could help you, my God, we offer yeah, it’s just a great package. You need to sign up, Jason. No, I’ve got to say, I consider Jason’s when he know.
[00:41:15.760] – Jonathan Denwood
I don’t know how much actively you’re developing because obviously you’ve got so many things to do, but your head’s going to explode with this. Jason. There’s about six, half a dozen developers that I really followed and really and when I was actively developing, I kind of followed your stuff and you were one of them. I put you in like Pippin Williamson and a couple of the other people as a developer, as a WordPress kind of guru. So I always thought you were in the top echelon of WordPress developers, so that’s enough for your ego because it get too big otherwise. On to the next question before I really embarrass myself. What have been a couple decisions that you’ve had to make with paid membership pro over the years that have kept you up at night? A couple of decisions you had to make with your wife or some leading people and you just didn’t know? And how did you make that decision? Anything comes to mind? A couple of decisions that you had to make that you just didn’t know it was the right thing and you just had to make the best decision. And how did you make that decision?
[00:42:49.450] – Jonathan Denwood
Just give some quick if you’re prepared to give some insight.
[00:42:53.180] – Jason Coleman
Yeah, I guess you added like that kept you up at night thing. I had some prepared, but maybe it makes me want to change my no.
[00:43:05.930] – Jonathan Denwood
I’m a terrible host and I just.
[00:43:07.810] – Jason Coleman
Had I don’t look backwards too much.
[00:43:11.920] – Jonathan Denwood
I’ve got to keep you on your toes, Jason, because otherwise I’ve had some guests fall asleep on the show.
[00:43:20.350] – Jason Coleman
We should clip that, that’d be good, use that in your so there’s been some big decisions that definitely impacted the direction of the company. One I’ll glance over because maybe it’s more of the same, we decided to have a free option for Paid Memberships Pro and lean into it and do it that way. At the time, wishlist member and some others were like premium membership plugins and it was like, let’s make the best membership plugin for free in the repository. And in some ways the psychology of that is people are like, there’s so many posts that’s like, if you can afford, buy this other membership plugin, if you can’t pay merch is pro is the best. I’m like, no, it’s actually just the best. It’s better than the paid options, it just happens to be free. And that message is hard to get across. People will like, $100 bottle of wine better than the $10 bottle of wine. It’s just human psychology, so we have to combat that. But I think on the flip side, we get the market share from having the free option and being at the top of the repository and we’re hitting our goal of getting the software to as many people as possible.
[00:44:36.870] – Jason Coleman
Some other decisions that I think might be useful for people starting out to market products. If you want to sign up for building four different versions of your widgets and learning JavaScript and PHP and whatever comes next, sorry, I kicked my camera. So some decisions we made was to launch early and often. So I see a lot of folks who have a product and it’s getting some traction and they’re like, I want to make money from it, but I feel like I have to build a new version or I have to separate the free version and the premium version. I have to build some extensions, I have to build something new before I can ask for money. And early on we had the full plugin was free in the repo and we just put like, hey, if you buy it from our website, here’s the price and you get access to us and premium support. And we had a do it for me plan to install it for them. And we still did consulting, so it led into consulting and we made really good money. I went to other people with products and they’re like, we want to make money.
[00:45:40.270] – Jason Coleman
It’s like you could just copy our formula. I think we still have a post on the Paid Memberships Pro blog that’s like steal our business model or something like that and it’s don’t change the code at all, just create a page charge for access and give people support. And there’s tons of free ways to free scout or just have a BB press form for support or just email me back and forth so you can start early, gain traction, and then you think you have to build add ons. You think you have to build extensions, like, get some customers and talk to them first and you can do that later. And I think some people think they launch and it doesn’t go well. And they’re like, I tried. I guess it’s over. It’s like, no, you can launch again. No one will remember. Put a different price, add a different thing, frame it differently, send a different email and launch again. And so I see people kind of get stuck at those points where they have a product and they don’t know how to charge for it. I think you can just try the easy thing of, like, put up a page and ask for money, and you don’t have to build anything new.
[00:46:36.510] – Jason Coleman
You can just support and just install your plugin for people. And you might be surprised if you have a plugin with 10,000 free users that a certain percentage of them will just be happy to give you money and then launch again. Yeah, and there’s also plugins that get stuck at that $1,000 a month range or something. And they kind of like, this isn’t enough to replace my day job. And we kind of were at that point, too. It’s like, we’re making some money, but it doesn’t replace their day job. And we had to invest in it and go further and kind of be patient because it could feel like if you want, like, $10,000 a month, you’re like, that’s a good, low six figure salary that will replace my job. You’re only at 1000. You feel like you’re 10% of the way there and you have to build up. But in reality, you’re like, halfway there building something at all. Like, you got your 20% of the way there, making one sale, like, all right, now you’re 50% of the way there and then getting up to $1,000. Like, you have multiple customers renewal. Like, all right, you’re 90%, you’re over halfway there now.
[00:47:42.310] – Jason Coleman
I know a lot of those businesses maybe can’t get to 10,000 for some kind of reason. They didn’t find product market fit. It’s not good enough. There’s not enough customers, and you go back to zero. But I think there’s a lot of people who kind of bail when they have a little bit of traction, but it’s not enough. And all they had to do is wait a year and lean in. And that’s hard to do. You have to invest. You have to mentally say, I’m going to invest in this in four year and see what so I think that was some of our mentality early on, and I think it would maybe be useful to other people who are earlier in the journey of trying to sell products. In WordPress.
[00:48:14.570] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s great. Over to you, Kurt.
[00:48:17.230] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, I almost want to ask as a follow up to that is like, in your opinion, how do you know the difference between that gaining traction from a business perspective?
[00:48:29.100] – Jonathan Denwood
Because now you’ve done this.
[00:48:30.050] – Jason Coleman
Right.
[00:48:30.360] – Kurt von Ahnen
So how do you know the difference between gaining traction, not gaining traction, versus you’re just simply early to market? Like, you solved a problem before Critical Mass realized it was a problem.
[00:48:44.310] – Jason Coleman
Yeah, that’s a good.
[00:48:50.330] – Jonathan Denwood
Question.
[00:48:50.800] – Jason Coleman
So now I have to apologize. That’s good. Yeah. That is the question that’s like your whole job, I guess, in that year while you’re trying to figure it out. And in some ways you can’t know. So you just have to take a stab. You just have to really try. I think you want to always be growing, so there has to be some growth. And if you stall out, you have to really kind of analyze the funnel of how people are hearing treat, where is it breaking down? Talk to customers and try to hear from them. Like, I would have bought, but I didn’t because of this. Sometimes there really is, like, one thing, so you kind of have to go deep to figure out what is that one thing that’s stopping the growth of the company right now. And it really is. If you have a year, it’s like every month, you’re like, what’s the one thing? Is it this didn’t work. All right. Is it this didn’t work? Is it this didn’t work? Is it this? And they’re like, oh, it was this. It was like, oh, they just were getting caught up at this point.
[00:49:47.120] – Jason Coleman
That’s kind of how it plays out in practice. But it is hard. Then you spend a year or two, and it’s like, I wasted. You wasted time. But you kind of have to mentally invest in it. And if you’re always learning, it’s kind of a good backup if you’re kind of managing. I talk a lot about going from consulting to products because that’s how we did it. There’s ways to be a little secure and still get contract work. So even if your product didn’t work out, you still got exposure. You still became an expert in something that you can use to sell consulting. Yeah, hopefully that helps. Sweet. Thanks for that.
[00:50:20.230] – Kurt von Ahnen
So the next question is what have been some of the biggest influences or personal mentors that are connected to your business and career development?
[00:50:29.050] – Jason Coleman
Yeah, I have a couple here. So one is Jose Palomino, who’s like a marketing consultant, and you can find his stuff@valueprop.com. And he has a book called Value Prop, which is probably, like, the best book for explaining the fundamentals of marketing to anyone. And he’s kind of focused on he has a lot of IRL real life customers, not necessary tech companies, and it’s like the 2 million to 20 million range. So you wouldn’t necessarily be able to hire him, probably for the typical WordPress business, but read his book and read his blog post, and it just honestly is like how we learned because he was an early customer of ours, and we just build his website, and we helped him lay out his book. And we built a website for him that he never launched, which was awesome, that had a lot of his content. He was really bad at taking his own advice, I think. I’ve told him that, and I’m saying this publicly, but he’s a really good marketing consultant and it was kind of like, you should just launch early, you should ship. And he’s telling other people how to do it.
[00:51:34.270] – Jason Coleman
But we’ve learned a lot from him.
[00:51:35.650] – Jonathan Denwood
And I it’s so much easier to tell other people than take your own advice, isn’t it?
[00:51:43.230] – Jason Coleman
And it’s still useful, like, to hear from him. And I think that book so people go like, he has a book called Value Prop, which is like, if you kind of don’t know anything about marketing and business and you’re kind of a tech person, I think you can read that and get like a little mini marketing MBA type thing. And it definitely, like, a lot of our decisions, like the decision to go free and how do we distinguish ourselves from the competition. And a lot of that kind of comes out of his teachings. Another one is like, the folks at Base Camp. They had books on remote work and I forget their first book. I was a fan of that and a lot of their design philosophies. And recently their book Shape Up is about how to manage the development process. And we incorporated that at Pay Memberships Pro, like a few years ago. And now that we’re involved in Lifter, like, Kurt hears about it to some extent, the Dev team more. We’re implementing it for Lifter and we’re getting feedback. At least now it’s like a sample size of two companies. I’ve been involved with implementing Shape Up and helping it to accelerate the development team and focus the development team.
[00:52:49.110] – Jason Coleman
And so that book Shape Up is really good. We’ve adjusted it for WordPress. I know there’s other WordPress companies like Saturday Drive at Ninja Forms was using it or is using it and some others. So I hope to produce some more content around how we use Shape Up, because it’s a little different if you don’t have as many people as base camp does and a little bit like open source. They’re like you. Just ship it. And then if you can, change it and bring it back. And you’re like, oh, no, you can’t do that in open source. Once you ship it, it’s on someone’s website forever. And they’re not going to upgrade necessarily. Be but there’s a couple of key lessons from the Shape Up in particular that work out. So one is how to consciously plan the stuff that our dev team is doing. It’s tactically, how to do that, how to decide, bring your team together, come up with ideas, pitch and bet, like, this is what the business should be focused on for the next three months. And then it has like, a systematic way to stop working on projects that are going over estimates.
[00:53:45.660] – Jason Coleman
So this is, like, huge in development. You’re always like, that’ll take two weeks, and it really takes six weeks, and then it’s still not done. And then it takes six months. And fast forward a year, and you spent a whole year building this thing, and it’s like, should we really still be building this? So with Shape Up, you have a cycle. You get to the end, it’s like pencils down. Like you can’t work on it anymore, and you have to pitch it for the next cycle. And it gives the management and everyone an opportunity to come in and do we still want to do this? We thought it would take three weeks. It’s really going to take six do we have the appetite to take six weeks on it? And based on what we learned in the three weeks already, that cadence of development of like, stop and you’re forgiven it’s okay, you didn’t finish and you can launch it later kind of a thing, the base camp guys in general, we’ve been following them and learning from them because they have know internet software company. But Shape Up in particular has been really useful for us as a development building products.
[00:54:42.890] – Jason Coleman
Cool.
[00:54:43.610] – Kurt von Ahnen
Jonathan, your favorite question, it goes to you.
[00:54:46.240] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, so obviously, I’m from the UK. I live in America. Jason. I’m a joint citizen there, so I used to watch a lot of Doctor Who and the TARDIS. So if you had your own time machine and you could go back at the beginning of your WordPress journey and you could give yourself some advice to yourself, what would you say to your younger version about insights that you wish you knew at the beginning?
[00:55:21.430] – Jason Coleman
Yeah, it’s really funny. This is your favorite question, but it’s like, I don’t like this kind of question. I’ll answer something, but yeah, I don’t like the what ifs and counterfactuals. I also imagine, like, 41 year old Jason going back to talk to 25 year old Jason, and I don’t think he would listen, you know what I mean?
[00:55:50.990] – Jonathan Denwood
I wouldn’t even listen to myself because I’m a totally different well, I hope it’s a bit of a shame if you’re not a different person.
[00:55:58.850] – Jason Coleman
Yeah, it’s true. Anyway, not to blow up your premise, but I feel really lucky, so I’m like, I don’t know that I talk.
[00:56:06.710] – Jonathan Denwood
A load of shit most of the time, so don’t worry about.
[00:56:14.550] – Jason Coleman
I feel I feel I feel like I’m really lucky and I don’t necessarily know the right answers. I could just explain what happened to me. And I don’t know that young Jason would listen to the ghost of future Jason. Although I do that exercise where I do the inverse, where it’s like, what would 80 year old Jason like? I imagine what would 80 year old.
[00:56:32.770] – Jonathan Denwood
Jason go that way? Then what would your eight year old Jason tell you? 41. You look very young for your age. What would your eight year old say to you there then?
[00:56:48.930] – Jason Coleman
Yeah, what would he, how would he feel about me working so much? Definitely. And I try to spend more time with my family. I realize that my kids are eleven and 14 and they’re going to move out or have their own lives eventually. And so it’s like this time is really precious. So the focus on that, try to make an impact. Is making more money actually going to change things? Or is it kind of like trying to help more people, things like that? It helps me, I think, focus on when I’m making big decisions. One thing I would tell my past self potential or I would try is like, and this is the theme is like, do I have a big head? But I would tell myself that Kim and I are exceptional. I don’t think we understood that early on. So I would try to give myself a big head and not just to make me feel better, but I feel like it might have helped. I think there’s some sense when different things were going on that there’s other smarter, better, well funded, equipped people who are going to tackle this same problem.
[00:57:57.030] – Jason Coleman
Someone else will come do this. We just talked about these problems in WordPress and I even said maybe some smarter person knows the answer. And I was like, maybe not. Maybe we’re the right people to fix it and we just have to try a little harder or figure out if it’s the right way. So I feel like getting some of that message like, hey, you guys are exceptional. And just believe it because I think we’ve done well. But we might have pushed a little harder, we might have been a little more focused. We might have done some things slightly differently. Like knowing like, oh, we’re actually the only people doing this. And I think I learned this a little bit. So it’s not too long ago in 2017 and Hurricane Maria hit Puerto Rico. I have family there so I got involved and actually a lot of WordPress people, I put like a GoFundMe page and a lot of people in the WordPress community donated. And I appreciate that and I do that now. I realize in Maui stuff’s going on, I’m a little okay. Like when stuff goes on in the world, I donate mindlessly to those mean you want to check, do you really know this person?
[00:59:03.140] – Jason Coleman
But I realized the power of people send me money instead of the Red Cross and I used it in a way that the Red Cross couldn’t. I got it to people who wouldn’t have gotten help. Like I took off work and I was doing all kinds of stuff but I was calling around to hardware stores in Florida to find gas pump nozles. Because if we could bring two gas pump nozles to the airport in Agodia, they would. Let us land the plane. We chartered a private jet. And luckily my dad’s cousin can fly planes. And it’s funny, he took like a little jet. It took like 12 hours to get from Florida to Puerto Rico. That’s like a 1 hour flight on a big jet. But this little chartered plane loaded down with cargo took forever. But it was like, hey, can we land our plane? Like, I know Pit bull and Mark Anthony have planes coming in, but we want to land our plane and get goods and supplies and money and thanks to the people that we know that were needed, it on the western side of the island. So in my mind I was like, why is Jason Coleman, an Internet developer in Reading, Pennsylvania, organizing a relief effort across the water in Puerto Rico?
[01:00:12.950] – Jason Coleman
And I was like, it kind of hit me that whenever you see a natural disaster, like like, there’s definitely a lot of people who emergency personnel, it’s their job to go in and do it. And governments are helping and big charities are helping and all that’s happening. And those are really good folks who are doing good work too. But I was like, man, for every one of those, there’s like ten random people who are getting involved. I don’t know. So that experience I took, that like the business, I was like, oh, I never thought of that. That individual people are having an influence in a small way. So that’s like a weird story, but I take that to business. It’s like, oh, you build this software that tens of thousands, hundreds of thousand sites are using and they make money from it and it’s having an impact on the world, so we try to take it seriously. I didn’t realize that in 2012 when I was just building a plugin and trying to get people to pay for it. I was like, oh, this actually is important work and feel good about it.
[01:01:14.310] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, it’s all kind of linked, really, Jason, isn’t it? For you to be able to organize something to help others, which I’ve I don’t talk about it, but I’m not going to talk about it too much. But I’ve been very supportive of the Ukrainian people and their struggle financially and through Allah of my actions because I am totally committed to their struggle utterly. And I do the best I can and I’m just totally committed to it. So you just have to find your poison, don’t you? But thanks for that insight, Jason. It was fantastic. So, Jason, what is the best way? The best way, Jason, for people to find out more about your madness and your schemes and what you’re up to? Jason, you your beloved wife.
[01:02:19.210] – Jason Coleman
Nice. You can still find me on Twitter, jason_coleman, it’s like that platform’s up in the air, but I do post there the most often, and people who DM me there get a hold of me my website is the realjasoncoeman.com; so it’s usually up to date with links to where I’m at and what I’m doing. And yeah, check that out and check to know, lifter and paid memberships pro. If know building a LMS or membership we’re it is the best software, it is free, and we’re like the most helpful people in the world. Kurt’s going to help you, so it’s like, it’s all good.
[01:02:53.720] – Jonathan Denwood
What more could you ask for? So Kurt, how can people learn more about you and what you’re up to?
[01:03:00.410] – Kurt von Ahnen
Kurt, well, Jason just sent everybody to lifter LMS for me, but anything that’s manana nomas online, you’ll be able to find me manyana nomas. And I’m the only Kurt Von on and on LinkedIn. So if you find Kurt Von on LinkedIn, that’s me. We should connect and see what we can do for each.
[01:03:16.190] – Jonathan Denwood
Oh, that’s great. And folks, if you want to be part of the WP-Tonic community, why don’t you go to the membership machine group on Facebook and join that? It’s a great community of WordPress people and people trying to build a membership website. There’s a load of good comments and stuff on there, so join us on there, and we’ve got some fabulous guests coming up in the next months. Hopefully, Jason will come back next year and talk some more. I think it’s been a fabulous discussion and telling people about the show. We’re getting more listeners, and more views, with the support of Kurt as well, building a great audience. We will be back next week with some other great WordPress SaaS insights to build the kind of business that you’re dreaming to give the kind of support to your family that they deserve. We will be back soon, folks. Bye there. Hey, thanks for listening; we do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group? And also, to keep up with the latest news, click WP Tonic.com forward slash newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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