Do WordPress Plugins Have a Future in a World of AI?
Wondering if WordPress plugins will survive the AI revolution? Discover what the future holds for plugins in an AI-powered WordPress ecosystem.
In this insightful video, we explore the future of WordPress plugins in an increasingly AI-driven landscape. As artificial intelligence transforms web development, will traditional plugins still hold their ground? Join us as we analyze emerging trends, potential adaptations, and the innovations that may redefine how plugins function within the WordPress ecosystem.
With Special Guest Ryan Logan From InfluenceWP
This Week’s Sponsors
Kinta: Kinta
LifterLMS: LifterLMS
Rollback Pro: Rollback Pro
The Show’s Main Transcript
[00:00:22.000] – Jonathan Denwood
Welcome back, folks, to the WP Tonic Show. This is episode 1004. We’ve got a great guest. We got Ryan Logan with us from Influence WP and he does a few other WordPress businesses as well, like WP Umbrella, and he’s a bit of an entrepreneur. Should be a fantastic discussion. So Ryan, would you like to quickly give the tribe a 15- to 20-second intro, and then when we go into the main part of the show, we go into a bit more detail.
[00:00:58.420] – Ryan Logan
Sure. So I started my career in 1997, working in the IT industry. I worked my way up from the help desk to interim CIO before I left and started my own IT consulting firm. During that journey, I was constantly asked by clients, can you build a website for us? And after saying no about 10 times, I finally decided, well, you know, I want to help these folks, plus I’m leaving some revenue out of the picture. So I’m going to learn WordPress. Actually, WordPress wasn’t my first stop. A solution called Page Lines was my first stop; then I fell into WordPress, and in 2014, I really took it seriously. And then two years later, in 2016, I officially formed my WordPress agency.
[00:01:52.150] – Jonathan Denwood
All right, well, I think we’ll end it there, and we’ll go into a bit more detail when we come back. And I’ve got Kirk as well. Kirk, would you like to quickly introduce yourself?
[00:02:02.150] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah. My name is Kirk Von Ahnin. I own an agency called Manana Nomas. Also work directly with the teams over at Lifter, LMS, and WP Tonic.
[00:02:10.430] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. Like I say, we’re going to get. We got a load of questions to go through with Ryan. We will. We’re going to go for our break, and we’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
[00:02:25.380] – Kurt von Ahnen
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[00:02:58.750] – Jonathan Denwood
We’re coming back, folks. Also want to point out we’ve got some special deals from the sponsors of the show, plus enough of goodies for freelancers, small agency owners, and power users. You can find all these free resources and goodies, as well as special offers from the sponsors, at wp-tonic.com/deals. What more could you ask for, my beloved tribe? Probably a lot more, but that’s all you’re going to get on that page. Right. Sorry, I cut you off, Ryan, when you were in full flow, but we had to go for our starter break. So you started on your journey building these WordPress websites, and then you decided to start an agency. I think that’s what you said.
[00:03:49.910] – Ryan Logan
Yeah. So in my IT consultancy, I was building more and more WordPress websites, and then the transition started, with more and more of my work on the website side and less on it. Eventually, it became so lopsided that my interest completely shifted. After an entire life in the IT industry, I wanted to do WordPress, started the agency, officially closed the IT consultancy, and just went full in on WordPress.
[00:04:20.790] – Jonathan Denwood
All right, and how long ago was that?
[00:04:23.910] – Ryan Logan
2016 is when I officially, like, made the shift.
[00:04:27.510] – Jonathan Denwood
Oh, fantastic. Over to you, Kurt.
[00:04:30.390] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I kind of feel like I’m cheating someone because Ryan and I have spoken before. But, you know, for the listeners and viewers, Ryan, tell us about, like, the inspiration and like, why you even started Influence wp and then kind of like what the lesson is along the way.
[00:04:46.450] – Ryan Logan
Yeah. So I, I wanted to give back to WordPress in some way because of the lifestyle it has afforded me, working from home and such. And I specialize in building directories. That’s one of my niche businesses. So I thought I could spin up a directory. I can amplify everyone in WordPress, or at least that was the idea, whether you were a plugin, a product creator, a podcaster, you had an amazing newsletter, whatever. So that was the idea behind it. And I quickly realized that the people who could really use my help are the product creators. So I just kind of niched down, niched down, niched down and settled. And that’s where we are currently focusing on product creators. So what I’ve learned is that there are just some people in the WordPress space that need more help than others, and that’s who I’m focusing on.
[00:05:40.910] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, I mean, to kind of extend that. I mean, I think in your, in your experience, you’ve realized pretty quickly that all product creators aren’t created equal.
[00:05:50.750] – Ryan Logan
That is correct. Since Influence WP has recently undergone some major changes, I call it influence WP 2.0, where it’s, it’s really focusing on deeper partnerships and I, to kind of go further into what you just said, I officially turned away my first partnership and since doing this almost two years, it, I didn’t understand what the product was even supposed to do. I didn’t understand their product page, and where in the past I would, okay, this person needs help. I’m going to try to help them. Like there’s just some that are so, so far beyond help that, you know, you just, I don’t have the time to invest in that. And yeah, just, it’s. They’re not created equal. That’s. You’re right.
[00:06:38.640] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah.
[00:06:39.080] – Ryan Logan
Yeah.
[00:06:39.360] – Kurt von Ahnen
I mean it’s kind of hard to promote a use case when you can’t figure out what the use case is.
[00:06:43.040] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah.
[00:06:43.520] – Ryan Logan
And yeah, and there’s, and there’s, and there’s fallout from that. When you’re being honest with people, you never know how they’re going to take that information. They didn’t take it well. But it has to be done and hopefully, hopefully they learn from it and we can try again.
[00:06:59.750] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah.
[00:07:00.710] – Kurt von Ahnen
Now I’m going to run the risk of doing another follow up on the same question because if we go to the other side of the teeter totter, you’ve got some pretty big hitters on the list too.
[00:07:09.990] – Ryan Logan
Yeah.
[00:07:10.710] – Kurt von Ahnen
Like so, so what are, can you describe like a win or a magic partnership with one of these, you know, one of these goliaths that you’ve got on your list?
[00:07:21.590] – Ryan Logan
Yeah. This is a really timely one. If you’ve, I don’t know if you’ve seen, but Plug In Palooza is running right now. That’s a huge event for bundling and selling WordPress plugins at a huge discount. That idea came about from Chris Padgett at Lifter lms, which is a partner of Influence WP offering I think the most generous discount of every partner on Influence wp. So he’s provided that discount. He’s given me a lot of time behind the scenes. He’s given me resources. He brought the idea of, of Plug In Palooza to me and we executed on it. That is the best example I have. It’s not the only example, but it’s the best by far.
[00:08:03.560] – Kurt von Ahnen
Nice.
[00:08:04.000] – Jonathan Denwood
Nice.
[00:08:04.360] – Kurt von Ahnen
Thanks, man. Jonathan
[00:08:07.560] – Jonathan Denwood
WP. Palooza. Is that the title?
[00:08:10.520] – Ryan Logan
If you go to influencewp.com plugin palooza. It’s, it’s an event that just, it’s gonna. Next Tuesday is when it goes off. We’ve been teasing it but it’s, it’s a, it’s something that hasn’t been done in WordPress as far as we know. It’s been done in other industries, you know, other sectors, other industries and it’s been proven to be successful, but I don’t think anyone in WordPress has ever done it.
[00:08:35.860] – Jonathan Denwood
And what, can you explain what the
[00:08:37.580] – Ryan Logan
event is and that yeah, for 72 hours it is a. You get 90% off of six plugins that are from highly respected vendors in WordPress. Lifter LMS being one of those and five others. But you have 72 hours to get 90 up to 90 off. You’re guaranteed 85. And then we say 5% more if you help us share on social media. But it’s 90 off effectively for these heavy hitter WordPress plugins.
[00:09:04.510] – Jonathan Denwood
And what, what are they going to be?
[00:09:07.150] – Ryan Logan
Which ones are which vendors? There is Conversion Bridge by Derek, there’s Lifter, lms, there is eventcoy. Derek has another product in there called Confetti.
[00:09:21.550] – Kurt von Ahnen
I like that.
[00:09:22.590] – Ryan Logan
Infinite Uploads is another one. And then last but not least is Food Plugins.
[00:09:28.190] – Jonathan Denwood
Yes.
[00:09:29.070] – Ryan Logan
But that, this is the initial trial run this with this solid core and then we’re, you know, we’re going to see where this goes from here. I’ve already had people emailing me left and right asking how they can be part of it in the next one.
[00:09:40.910] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, that’s good things, isn’t it? I know. I listened to a couple of your recent interviews and you know, you said that you had to, I don’t know how to word this, you had to be kind of more business like with it because there was a kind of diversion of attitude when you started to work with people. I’m trying to be as diplomatic as possible. What. Can you give us a little bit more insight about that or are you.
[00:10:15.440] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. It’s. I, I just, I try not to get ranty about it but you know, the, the thing is like there was people, you know, that you would offer a deal on Influence wp. I would go within their free plugin or on their website and you would see these dark patterns where they were not only matching the discount they were giving Influence wp. They were trumping in a lot of ways and negating the partnership. So that’s just One example. Another one is just I’ve had partners flat out tell me, like, we need to hide you from our communities because we don’t want them to know we are giving these special discounts. I could give you a laundry list of things that it just. I was working for free. I was basically working a full time job for free and just something needed to change.
[00:11:06.390] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah.
[00:11:07.030] – Ryan Logan
Because when you, when you do everything for free, then people don’t take you seriously and they abuse it, just to be blunt. And I had to put a stop to it. So we’re gonna find out who the, who really wants to be partners with Influence wp.
[00:11:20.750] – Jonathan Denwood
Now basically, how are you promoting it? Are you through mostly your social media? Through X and other social media. How have you got a mailing list? How do you actually promote?
[00:11:35.630] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, mostly social media. And then I do a weekly newsletter. It’s one of the unique things about Influence WP and I try to do this from the start is just to be unique, not be like everyone else. So there’s no affiliate links, there’s no ads. I’m not paid to do any of the videos I do. I’m not paid to include you in the newsletter. It started out and still is largely it’s just a passion project to help people with, you know, product creators, especially now. But do it in a unique way that hasn’t been done before.
[00:12:10.610] – Jonathan Denwood
Right. So sounds like a lot of work, but there we go.
[00:12:17.250] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, I’m fixing that. I’ve fixed that.
[00:12:21.170] – Jonathan Denwood
Right, let’s go on. Well, the next question is very appropriate, really. What are your thoughts on the future of commercial plugins the next couple years? And then what came on? Matt Madayus did a video. Matt’s a friend of the show and I, I think Matt is a friend of mine. But he did this video and it was about M Dash, this product called M Dash from Cloud
[00:12:53.010] – Ryan Logan
Cloudflare.
[00:12:54.290] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah. And I thought it was an April Fool’s fin initially, but. But. And I thought Matt was just jumping on the bandwagon, but no, it’s for real. So I don’t know. Do you. Have you been on the radar about M Dash? Because it’s only been publicized, you know, a day ago.
[00:13:19.090] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, it’s all over social media. It’s hard to avoid it. I am. Brian Cords published a post that he dropped on social media today. I would recommend people read that. And what it does is it doesn’t bash EM Dash, but what it does is it says, hey, there’s things that WordPress can learn from em Dash. And let’s take a serious look at that. If nothing else, em dash may open the eyes of WordPress and, you know, push them towards making changes that maybe should have been made a long time ago. So I’d recommend people read that post. It’s refreshing because it’s not bashing one side or the other and it’s just looking at it through open eyes and honest eyes.
[00:14:05.880] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I totally agree with you there. Actually, I think that was quite insightful. What, what are some of the key things that you think that word WordPress could take from this new solution? Whatever the way they’re wording it? What are some of the key things that you think WordPress can take from this, M Dash?
[00:14:27.770] – Ryan Logan
I haven’t looked at it extensively myself. I just literally read, you know, the social media post and then I read Brian’s post, like literally right before we hit record here. One thing I noticed is you, there’s no block editor in there. So one thing I’ve thought forever since WordPress, you know, just put the block editor in and not making it optional. I think that was kind of a mistake. But if you look at M Dash, there’s no block editor in there. It’s basically, it looks like the classic editor of WordPress, which allows you to do things that you can’t do in WordPress also. So I think one of the things you learn right away is maybe don’t cram certain things down people’s throats and make it optional. Gutenberg is a plugin. Why not keep, keep that as a plugin and let people opt into that, for example? Because a lot of WordPress development and stuff going forward looks at Gutenberg and it holds, you know, certain releases back, which we’re seeing. But if it was on a plugin on the side and people could opt into it, you know, things could be different, potentially. That’s one thing.
[00:15:44.700] – Ryan Logan
One thing.
[00:15:46.710] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, but I, I think the security features and the way they deal with plugins, I think that’s very interesting as well. What’s, what’s your thoughts on that?
[00:16:00.310] – Ryan Logan
It. It’s interesting. Yeah. I think there’s something to be learned there. I think there, I think if I read correctly though, there’s, there’s, there’s drawbacks to doing that. But I’m not sure I’d have to go back and wait. I haven’t like literally read that post before you hit record. Just trying to recall what Brian said, since I haven’t seen it myself. But if I do recall, there was something that WordPress could take from that approach.
[00:16:29.750] – Jonathan Denwood
But what’s, what’s your own views about the future, about WordPress in the next 18 months? Do you, you know what, what would be if you had the power to change one or two things, what would you do that you think would make WordPress a lot better?
[00:16:53.210] – Ryan Logan
My. One of my things for the longest time is because I’m a. I’m a visual guy, I’m a design guy, is. I. I want to see a complete overhaul of the WordPress dashboard. I want to see the media library completely overhauled, folders, tagging, organization, get, you know, Infinite scroll is a problem. Like, you know, things like that. Just because of the nature of the work that I do, that would be one of the biggest, the biggest things. The command palette, you know, is I think is a unsung hero. I use it all the time and there are plugins that enhance it and I love those. I think the command palette could be greatly enhanced to reduce context switching. In WordPress, there’s a lot of. Especially if you do full site editing, there’s a lot of jumping between screens and they’re disconnected. You often find yourself like out of your workflow, literally. It’ll just kick you back into the WordPress dashboard and you got to figure out where you were before.
[00:17:54.720] – Jonathan Denwood
Oh, what’s happened? Oh, sorry.
[00:18:00.180] – Ryan Logan
Oh, can you hear me?
[00:18:01.340] – Jonathan Denwood
Yes, I can. Yes.
[00:18:02.420] – Ryan Logan
Okay. I lost something.
[00:18:04.340] – Jonathan Denwood
All right. I was a bit concerned there.
[00:18:06.620] – Kurt von Ahnen
It’s like it’s. Cat knocked over his laptop.
[00:18:08.900] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, I think it’s just my video chord. All right, I apologize for that.
[00:18:12.900] – Jonathan Denwood
No, that’s no problem. So anything else that you think things changing?
[00:18:20.900] – Ryan Logan
No, that’s all I can think of. I’m sure I would come up with something that I thought. Are you guys able to see me okay?
[00:18:26.170] – Jonathan Denwood
Yes.
[00:18:26.450] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, I just lost my video.
[00:18:31.250] – Jonathan Denwood
All right, I think that’s a good place for us to stop for our mid break. And when we come back, we’ve got some more questions. It should be a great discussion. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
[00:18:46.530] – Kurt von Ahnen
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[00:19:23.670] – Speaker 4
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[00:20:01.120] – Jonathan Denwood
We’re coming back folks. Want to point out, if you’re looking for a hosting provider that specializes in membership LMSs and community websites, why don’t you look at partnering with WP Tonic? We really offer custom hosted solutions for those particular type of websites. Plus we can also be a lot more we can be your technical partner as well. If that’s interesting, why don’t you go over to wptonic.compartners, wP partners, hyphentonic.compartners. let’s build something special together. I missed out question four, so I’m gonna throw it over to Kirk and if you got a question that you want, just feel free to ask it.
[00:20:53.990] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, it’s kind of an expansion of question three actually, because when we talk about commercial plugins and what like the next 18, 24 months looks like, I’m driven back to a panel show that we had had on WP Tonic last month. We, we had a couple of panelists plugin creators and then we have another panelist who works a lot in AI and basically said, you know, I can create anything I want in AI. I don’t, you know, I don’t need plug in creators anymore. And you know, that sounds, it sounds light and wonderful. Like to hear that on the surface. Sounds light and wonderful, right? Anything I imagine I can make, I can just do this thing. But I’m still of the mindset as an agency owner, I don’t want to be responsible for creating and maintaining nothing. I just want to implement tools that other skilled people made and maintain for me and provide the updates so I can focus on helping customers the way I help customers best. But that’s my perspective. And so I’m just kind of wondering you as an expert now, especially you partnering with all these plugin creators, right?
[00:22:01.360] – Kurt von Ahnen
So you have all these product creators. What does it look like, what you think? Year and a half, two years AI and I can build whatever I want versus people curating actual functioning tools.
[00:22:14.220] – Ryan Logan
As I’ve said on social media and to some of my partners behind the scenes, you can no longer have a simple single use plugin anymore that you’re trying to monetize. Let’s forget about it. I can elaborate more on that as far as my own journey with AI and developing. But those plugins, those days are over and I can prove it. So behind the scenes and on social media, I’ve told plugin creators, you need to go deeper. You know, if you’ve got six plugins and you know one of them, maybe one or two, is maybe deeper than the others, maybe drop those others off, sell them, retire them, whatever, and really dive deep into those two plugins, those two core plugins, and distance yourself further and further from the AI. So the AI is much harder to reach. Like when I create plugins and we talk about that if you want. When I create plugins now with AI, like, if I have to go and do anything semi complex, I’m out. So that’s where they can really set themselves apart. They go deeper into their solution. That’s. That’s what I think has to happen right now.
[00:23:18.740] – Ryan Logan
I have, I have one partner at Influence wp, where I’ve helped literally reshape his approach, where he had plugins sprawl everywhere. And I said, what if you bring it all under one roof and you. It’s one name, one brand, all of these features are under there. And at a simple toggle, they can, at a modular level, activate what they want to activate. Just keep iterating on that plugin over and over again. That. And that’s your, that’s your flagship. So that’s what we’re doing currently.
[00:23:51.620] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, interesting, Interesting. Jonathan.
[00:23:54.020] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, I think that’s really insightful because what you’re saying is the, the simple plugin that’s just doing like one, one mine, one fin. You really see the writing on the wall. But on the other hand, being that you’ve been producing some of those plugins, there’s a certain line of complexity where you’re not so keen to use AI to build a plugin solution. Is that basically it?
[00:24:23.630] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, because I’m working on a guide right now. It’s like the beginner’s journey of doing AI coding in WordPress. And for anyone that wants to get into it and what you find is there’s. If you want to do things the right way, you know, there’s accessibility, there’s security. I approach it in a way that this thing is going to be submitted to the WordPress repository. That’s how I build things. Like, I know I’m gonna, it’s gonna be scrutinized, I build it that way and try to follow best practices with everything. Even if I only if I’m the only one that ever uses this plugin, that’s how I approach things. So when I’m developing these, it’s very quickly you can find yourself in a place where it’s like the point of no return and you need a true developer that’s reviewing this code. That’s going to cost money. That’s their time, right? You need to market this thing, you need to distribute this thing. I mean, it’s so much more than just chatting with an AI. There’s so much more to it.
[00:25:28.710] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, this is the divide because I totally agree with you, but I have, I was, I met up, I met Kirk on Tuesday and I was talking to somebody that we both well known and they’re, they’ve gone totally AI and they’ve got some great, they produce some really interesting stuff, but they’re not, they’re not really doing what you’re doing. They’re just really diving in big ways. And I know some other people, not, not personally, but they’re. I follow them on YouTube and I’m really big into SEO and I follow a few people and one or two of them, they have really closed down their traditional SEO agency and they’re building on AI platforms like Lovable and some of the more app focused platforms and they’ve just gone fully, they’re just developing stuff themselves and they really haven’t got that much serious development experience. And it’s just fascinating to see these divides. But I, I want to publicly state that I’ve, I agree with your approach more than the other instinctively, but the business side of me kind of goes on the other side. So I feel very drawn to both camps. Is that making sense, Ryan?
[00:27:12.800] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, absolutely. When I fired up that my AI environment for the first time. Development environment, first time, I was so excited when I saw that cursor blinking and I was ready to start typing into it. You know how you hear people talk about one shotting a solution? I firsthand can say that that is absolutely possible. I. One shot at a WordPress plugin in one prompt. Now I, to be fair, that was a bit of research on the prompt, but it literally created a plugin that I could have used and shipped. The problem is that if you want to ship that anywhere responsibly, that’s where the problem happens. It was fully functional. It did everything. I have no idea what the code was underneath. I have no idea it could be insecure it could have back doors, I have no idea. I think that’s the scary part. But you can one shot solutions if you have the right prompt.
[00:28:13.480] – Jonathan Denwood
What’s your present AI stack then? Ryan?
[00:28:17.640] – Ryan Logan
I just use cursor And I use WordPress Studio. That’s it. Oh yeah, that’s, that’s literally it. So I watched, I, I just went on YouTube and I searched for WordPress Plugin Development specifically found like you know, five or six videos. Watched them all beginning to end and I just pieced them all together. So I knew that cursor was a viable option. I knew that if you wanted to do things the right way, you needed to add the WordPress development rules in there. You need to do other things for privacy. Here’s some specific settings. I knew all of this going in before I hit that prompt and start, you know, entered that prompt. I knew things, I wanted to do things the right way. But that’s, that’s it. It’s, it’s a pretty simple setup. I don’t know if it’s the long term setup, I don’t know if it’s the right setup. But it’s working. It’s working like it’s absolutely working well.
[00:29:09.580] – Jonathan Denwood
It’s a very changing environment to say the least. So what, how do you envision this effect in WordPress? Because you know there’s been some other YouTube influencers. There was one, a Dutch guy that’s big in. I forgot his name. Probably Kirk remembers his name that does a lot of training in Alamator and he had I think Reno. Yeah, pardon me. Yes. And I think he had a lady that’s part of his community and she, she had just given up on WordPress and she was just using lovable. It was a little bit frustrating because she wouldn’t show the backside of some of her customer solutions. She said, she said she did that for confident, for confidential reasons but she had shown him. So that was a little bit frustrating. But I know there are some people that, some agencies that I know, small agencies that have gone really, they’re gone the whole lovable route and, and also you got go high level, haven’t you that have just introduced their own AI website builder, haven’t they? So how do you think. The only problem is that I’ve noticed with a lot of these AI website they all look a bit the same to me.
[00:30:43.640] – Jonathan Denwood
What’s. How do you think especially the go high level introducing this, a, this prompt Website builder. What’s your thoughts about that?
[00:30:55.800] – Ryan Logan
I honestly have no experience with any of that stuff. Except for, and that is like a WordPress solution. I’m all in on WordPress. And that is a solution called Miles. It is, it’s magic. But again it’s, it comes down to prompting. You have to know what to ask for and that’s going to allow you to have those sites that don’t look like every other site. It’s, it’s like, it’s just the prompting know what to ask for. And that, that comes from years of building websites. You know, I’m 12 years into this and designing is one of my favorite parts and I think you can pull from that and you know what to ask it when you do those prompts. But a lot of times with, I think from the videos I’ve seen with like lovable and whatnot, it’s just everything looks like a SaaS, a SaaS application website, you know, the same border radius on all the buttons, dark background, you know, you know, same animations. It all looks the same.
[00:31:56.580] – Jonathan Denwood
But over to you, Kurt.
[00:32:00.420] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I hate to be beating this dead horse but I, I just can’t get my head around one thing and that is, you know, you said you were using AI to create plugins and you told us your stack and I appreciate that but we were talking to Matt Mullenweg last month about AI and usage and stuff and I had said, well, one of the things I had mentioned was I think the plugin directory, the repository is a little odd, right? 75,000 something plugins. And then he laughed, you know, and he said, oh, we’re going to be over 100,000 soon, you know, because this AI is creating this increased flow, this injection of stuff. And in my mind I just, I think to myself before I jump in and start trying to vibe code some kind of a solution, my gut says is there a pre existing solution for this before I start trying to reinvent the wheel? And I have some people telling me it’s a waste of time to try and make a plugin fit every use case, which I, I guess I understand that story and they try to tell me it’s easier to just vibe code something and make it happen.
[00:33:06.560] – Kurt von Ahnen
Where do you sit on that fence? Because, because you do. Because you, you’re familiar with both sides. So, so let me know what you’re thinking.
[00:33:13.120] – Ryan Logan
Well, very timely. Literally this morning I’ll tell you a story. So the plugin that I decided to create, the second one came out of a need very simple idea. It didn’t exist as far as I knew. I went to the WordPress repository first, because like you said, I don’t want to just replicate something that’s already been done. I’d rather go use something that someone spent their time building, try it. If it’s great, give them a great review and move on with my life. I couldn’t find it. I searched high and low and this is one of my biggest complaints about the WordPress. It’s not WordPress itself, but, you know, like the repository, let’s call it. And I just posted about this yesterday on X. Is that it? The repository is a dumpster fire. As far as finding solutions. I applaud them for having the featured section. That’s great. We. But for example, what I’m building is a block based solution. I went to the blocks area of the repository which filtered block based solutions. I then typed in the word form. What happens when you do that? It takes you right back to the main, not the blocks, plugins, the main plugins repository and you have to start all over again.
[00:34:30.540] – Ryan Logan
There’s no filters. There’s nothing. I build directories, we have filters for everything. You have to have filters. Had there been filters, I would have never created the plugin I created because literally this morning I found a plugin similar to what I was building. They’re completely different. I mean, they’re different, but they share some similar qualities. I probably would have just went and used it and then gave that guy some feature requests. But we actually coincidentally were talking offline. I had no idea he was the creator of it. And he shared a link and I was like, are you kidding me? Like I, I literally just built a version of that. And we were, so, we were talking about like that it has to be fixed because all of these, this influx of AI, we’re assuming AI built plugins in the repository. How many of those wouldn’t even be there if people knew what existed already? That’s the question.
[00:35:26.640] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, I, I gotta be honest, I think that’s sometimes about you because you mentioned forms, right? And server goes, what form tool do you know? I use WS Form, Gravity Form, I use Fluent Form. I’m like, how come there’s so many stinking form options? You know, it’s a website gathering information. Do we need 73 form tools? And everyone’s going to say, well, this one, this one will process, you know, square purchases and this one will do something with stripe and this one will do. And I guess I get it, but it just seems like there’s, there’s just too much to stare at. It’s hard to decide. And I think maybe that’s why some people think, well I’ll just vibe code my own then. Because I can’t, I can’t see through the mess, I can’t get through the fog to find what I want.
[00:36:06.940] – Ryan Logan
I am living proof of that exact thing. I literally just did it. I needed a coming soon plugin that was super basic, that worked completely with the block editor and then it had a form component to it that doesn’t exist, or at least I didn’t think. So I created it. Now the different kind of along, along the lines of what you’re saying, my plugin, when I look at this, other guys compared to mine, they’re, they’re different like mind goes above and beyond what his does. And I’m not a developer, he’s a developer. Like that’s all he does. But I saw other opportunities. For example, I use Fluent CRM for the newsletter, the CRM. So I needed a Fluent CRM component into my subscribe form. So I built that in all with AI. I could have never in a million years done that on my own. I would have had to hire somebody for that specific use case. But I guarantee you if you go in the repository, you’re not going to find that exact specification in a plugin. It’s just because it’s a special use case. So that’s where AI is magical. And that’s why we are seeing such a huge influx in the repository, because it’s easy.
[00:37:20.640] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah. Thanks, Jonathan.
[00:37:23.120] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah. So basically, you know, you got the influence wp, but you also got WP Umbrella, haven’t you? Is that correct?
[00:37:31.840] – Ryan Logan
I’m a contributor. That’s not my company. Yeah, I’m just a contributor. So I, I, I get in there and talk about the product and like this could be improved or I’d like to see this, you know, just a contributor.
[00:37:43.680] – Jonathan Denwood
So you were saying that you kind of specialize in directories. Where do you, you know, I think it’d be interesting for our audience. Where do you get the majority of your customers? Is it from other agencies? Are you a specialized subcontractor or, or is it people just find you through your content, your outreach on the Internet or through social media? What, what are some of the lead generative ways that people find you actually Ryan, to do directories?
[00:38:19.270] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, I have a business just dedicated to this and I started that almost seven years ago now. Six, seven years ago I started with a Facebook group and I quickly realized that wasn’t for me. So I got out of that and then started leaning heavily into. So I, I think, I think I got up to like 1500 members in that specific niche. So I got out of Facebook, Facebook groups and then started a YouTube channel. And that’s when things really took off because I love to educate people and share my experiences and what I’m doing. And I, I would jump on YouTube almost every day and just. Just record what I was doing. I still do that. It’s pretty popular channel, but so that’s probably my main thing. I also started.
[00:39:03.440] – Jonathan Denwood
Do you want to popular songs? Tell us.
[00:39:05.830] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, it’s called My Listing Club.
[00:39:07.990] – Jonathan Denwood
My Listing Club.
[00:39:09.430] – Ryan Logan
Yeah. And it’s, it’s built. It focuses on a specific theme called My Listing. And it’s one of those. It’s one of those all in one themes, if you will, directory themes. But I, I fell into that like by accident six, seven years ago. And I just. The way that I. My education and support background, like I just, I was. Became the go to for it and it’s just. I leaned into it. But yeah, so then I started a circle community and with that I felt like I was just talking to myself most of the time.
[00:39:43.260] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, that’s nice though you tried because I. When was that? When did you.
[00:39:47.740] – Ryan Logan
I quit. I quit that last year. But I. Two years ago I started, I would
[00:39:52.740] – Jonathan Denwood
say, right, because that was when. Because really you only had buddy boss. Really. WordPress union. You now got Fluent Community, which we love at WP Tonic. We. We still like Buddy Boss, but it’s got to be the right tool for the right solution, isn’t it? But you gave up on that. What can you tell us about that?
[00:40:14.970] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, I just, I don’t know if it’s just the people I was serving in that community, but I just, I felt like I was just speaking into the ether and there was like no response. There was no, not even a thumbs up. It was just like I was talking to myself and I’m. I’m paying. I don’t know what it was a hundred dollars a month for this tool that nobody really, you know, maybe they cared about. I just, they never let me know. So. So then I was like, I shut that down and went 100% on YouTube and then kept the newsletter going. And that was my communication. It’s currently like my communication for them right now. But yeah, if I was to start up again, it would be Fluent Community for sure. So.
[00:40:54.520] – Jonathan Denwood
So do you do local work as well or is it almost all your time is apart from the time you’re spending on influence? Wp is it mostly these Directory websites.
[00:41:07.400] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, that’s my bread and butter. And then I have my. My actual agency is called WP Turned Up. That’s. That’s what I started with. My specialty there is literally taking somebody from an idea for an online business and taking them from beginning to end. I’ve even helped people sell their business. Like I’ve got a product where it’s project management, you just. We drop it in and I literally the entire life cycle of their business, I take them through it, I build their site, maintain it, support it, get them in a position to sell it, you know, following best practices and things like that. So between WP turned up, my listing club influence, WP, there’s also changelog, WP, which is another passion project for WordPress, which it was. That kind of was a need for myself as well, because, you know, doing website care and maintenance over the years, change logs. I was constantly chasing change logs and I was like, well, what if we had a platform where you could go and you could subscribe and get notified when changes come out? You know, like a centralized location. And then. So we built that and then on top of that, we just.
[00:42:15.380] – Ryan Logan
We released a plugin not that long ago because there was a gap in the changelog plugin market. So now you can put our plugin for free on your site and you can. People can subscribe to your changelog through our platform. So it’s a very unique plugin situation.
[00:42:36.000] – Jonathan Denwood
All right, and how long have you been doing that?
[00:42:39.440] – Ryan Logan
I would say that’s about six months. Just. That’s a random. Random guess. Yeah. And then have one more project coming and then I gotta call it. I gotta call it after that. You only do so much. But I’m gonna. You didn’t ask this question, but I’m just gonna tell you, I’m gonna. Like. My agency is in a flux like I am with these page builder situations and AI. I. I don’t know. You can have me back on maybe. I don’t know what to do next. I. I’m just being transparent. I don’t know what to do next. I have access. I bought Etch. I bought. I have a lifetime license for bricks. There’s. Now I’m introduced to Miles. I love olliewp. I’m pretty much all in on that. I’m just kind of doing these other things. I don’t know what to do next. I don’t know. I gotta go all in on something because I don’t like to spread myself thin on these tools too much. But I don’t know what to do because there’s. There’s just so many options.
[00:43:41.090] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I think you’re like a lot of people. I think you’ve summed up the situation really well actually. Right. It is to say it’s fragmented and confusing even for those that got the amount of experience that you’ve got. Can you imagine what the average person feels like?
[00:44:03.980] – Ryan Logan
I can’t. And to be truthful, I, you know, I. Elementor is what I, you know, got in on six, seven years ago because the directory theme I use requires it. So that’s. I was, you know, that’s natural progression into elementary. I became an expert literally like was designated an elementary expert on their platform at one point before I just voluntarily let that go. And then, so that’s all I’ve known for the longest time. And then, you know, like I said, I bought that bricks lifetime license, never touched it. I looked at not nothing against it. I just didn’t have time. Then there was the block editor. Gutenberg came around and I touched it and I’m like, I can’t use this. I don’t. I have no idea what’s going on. So then etch comes out and you know, it does what it does where it promises you don’t have to touch the block editor. But I haven’t had time to invest in that. Meanwhile Ollie is there which from using Ollie it was like an on ramp. I love. This can be weird maybe to say I love the block editor now. Like I’m. I love working in it.
[00:45:08.040] – Ryan Logan
Like. But when you’re from a beginner standpoint coming into WordPress hell no. Like I, I just don’t see it like, but I love it once you actually give it the actual time. And it’s pretty cool stuff.
[00:45:23.190] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, well, we kind of still are with Cadence wp. Because Ben was such a great developer, it was sad to hear that he left, but he’s found new pastures. He’s got a full time job now somewhere else. But I think Ollie is interesting as well. It’s full site editing, but I think, yeah, it seems an interesting solution, doesn’t it?
[00:45:47.920] – Ryan Logan
Yeah. And then with the AI that’s coming, I envision. I don’t know if it’s going to directly compete with Miles, but I can envision a situation where you use the Olli patterns and their menu builder and their this and they’re that and then you just fill the gaps with AI. Like you get to a section and you need a. Or a landing page, for example, and you just type in the AI. I need a landing page that is built on all these standards and you’re going to have it in seconds. So that’s where I’m at.
[00:46:17.330] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s. That’s what you really need, isn’t it? You need something that gives you structure and some visual ability. But it also will be linked to AI as well, won’t it? Right.
[00:46:30.890] – Ryan Logan
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if. If you trust Mike and Patrick and what they’re building over there, and I do, and I trust that they’re going to do things in a responsible way, I just. I don’t know, I just see it being a slam dunk. I mean, you can already with Ollie. I’ve done it. I’ve done it already, is you can build a site beginning to end very easily. Now, if you fill that gap with AI, it’s. I don’t want to say it’s game over, because I hate saying that, but it’s partially game over. I mean, good luck competing with that if, you know, there’s. There’s others that are. I mean, Etch is kind of doing something similar where you’ve got the AI in there to fill the gaps. There’s others doing it, for sure.
[00:47:13.250] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah.
[00:47:13.650] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah. That was interesting. I saw. I saw a couple. Kirk’s big, big into Etch, and they’ve just introduced this AI, haven’t they? Elements to it. Have the naked.
[00:47:26.530] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, you can literally take a screenshot of something, put it into the AI and say, duplicate this in Etch to Etch standards, and it builds it in the structure bar and puts it on the page. And then, of course, you. You style it out from there. Kevin’s real big on this 5s methodology, and his big thing is structure. Like, get the content on the page first and then move it around and style it and do the stuff you want with it. And so I’ve been. I. I’m getting better with Etch. What surprised me, Ryan, and I think we’ve talked about this before, too, was the learning curve was because I came from an elementor background. You know, I came from classic editor, you know, site origin and stuff like that. Then. Then elementor. And then I. I kind of used elementor as a crutch for a while, and then it started giving me problems on updates and security and stuff. And so I said, okay, I got to try something different. So, like you, I went to bricks. Took me a while to learn bricks. It was a little bit of a learning curve, but I got it.
[00:48:27.450] – Kurt von Ahnen
And then I kind of assumed it’d be the similar thing to go to Etch, but it’s not, man, it’s a 10x learning jump for me. And there’s things that they’re doing with HTML and CSS and JavaScript and all these things in there that, that is new to me because I was always a kind of a point and shoot kind of builder, not, Not a coder. And so it’s been interesting, but I’ve had really good performance gains in the projects that I’ve converted from one page builder to Etch. So I’ve done it with elementor and I’ve done it with bricks, and in both situations, I had large jumps in page performance when I was done. So. So I think etch is the way to go. I just think the learning curve to it is immense. Which comes down to, as you mentioned, the difference between passion projects and business. Like, am I doing this to have fun and be artistic and play with stuff, or am I trying to create stuff and make, Make a dollar? And I can make a dollar with Astra Pro?
[00:49:28.710] – Ryan Logan
Well, yeah, you say Astra.
[00:49:31.350] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, I use it.
[00:49:32.430] – Ryan Logan
Yeah.
[00:49:34.230] – Kurt von Ahnen
And Jonathan and I use Cadence Pro on a lot of projects. So. So between Astra and Cadence, I’m. I’m in that, I’m in that bathtub quite a bit.
[00:49:42.630] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah.
[00:49:42.990] – Ryan Logan
I mean, I’ve got enfold sites still running. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Enfold a themeforest kitchen sink. Oh, there you go. But, yeah, when I said game over, I didn’t mean like Ollie’s game over for everybody else. I meant in that space because I feel like Etch is in a different space because it puts that, because it puts that layer on top of the blocks. The block editor, I think that they’re in a completely different arena. And then Miles is like, I, I. Those are the, these are the three tools that I’m kind of looking at now. And then Miles is like block editor, but I could see where Etch could come into play with it. So those are kind of the three things that I’m juggling right now. But Etch, like, I just don’t have the time. I go in there and I tinker and it’s just like, I, it just doesn’t. It’s an amazing tool. I know it is, but I just, it, I can’t, I can’t do it right now. I just, I gotta wait. I gotta wait until I can click some things and drop it on a page and then work with it, you know?
[00:50:43.110] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, I, I literally just made a tutorial for Lifter Lms, you know, using Lifter with Etch. Right. And they’ll be putting that out this week.
[00:50:52.350] – Ryan Logan
Oh wow.
[00:50:52.910] – Kurt von Ahnen
But it’s interesting because if you’re in Etch and you’re following along Kevin, with page builder101, you could make an assumption of like, oh, these cool tools aren’t going to work with this platform. Right. You just assume it’s not going to work but it turns out that it works great. You know, you just gotta, you got to think ahead of a couple of things.
[00:51:10.560] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, 100%. But we have options, lots of options. Yeah.
[00:51:14.920] – Kurt von Ahnen
Jonathan, you want to hit the last question?
[00:51:16.560] – Jonathan Denwood
Yes. So, last question. If you could go back to the beginning of your career, Ryan, and you could give yourself a little five- ten minute little pep talk, what do you think you would say to yourself
[00:51:33.760] – Ryan Logan
The IT career? I don’t think I would have changed anything. So let’s start with WordPress. I would say starting out in WordPress, knowing what I know now, I would not have stayed a one-man team. I would have, I would have tried to form a relationship with a developer, a developer-minded person, early on and worked on that, forming that strong bond and just growing together in WordPress way back when. Because I’ve always said for the longest time I’m a developer away from building cool stuff, and I’ve just been held back because, you know, finding that right developer to partner with. And often, when you partner with developers, they don’t necessarily share the same passion for what you’re trying to build, which can create a divide. But if I had had somebody from the beginning that I could have had on my team, could have been a team and shared the same passion for the same project, I think we could have built some really cool stuff. I think that’s what I would have changed is not trying to do everything on my own from the beginning.
[00:52:44.930] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I have purposely tried to build a small agency. It’s been, he said, it’s ups and downs to say the least. But that’s what I wanted, and it’s actually cost me a lot of money, that decision. I still feel it’s the best non-term, hopefully. But it’s nice to work with other people. I work with Kirk; we’ve got a couple of other people in the WP Tonic family. Yeah, I totally agree with you there. So, before we wrap it up, can you? What’s the best way, what’s the best of all these things you’re up to, Ryan?
[00:53:30.520] – Ryan Logan
Yeah.
[00:53:31.320] – Jonathan Denwood
What are the ones? Do you want the plug at the end of the show?
[00:53:34.600] – Ryan Logan
Yeah, I’m not good at plugging myself, so I’m just gonna. You know, I like to help people, so I’m just gonna say influencewp.com or changelog wp.com, and hopefully I can help you with one or both of those areas.
[00:53:48.360] – Jonathan Denwood
Actually, it’s been a fascinating discussion, Ryan. Actually, I’m so impressed with what you’re doing. I don’t know. We get all the time, but it’s fascinating. You have to come back on the show in a little while, where we’re continuing the discussion.
[00:54:07.870] – Ryan Logan
I’d love to. Thank you.
[00:54:09.790] – Jonathan Denwood
If you want to support the show, folks, the best way is if you’re listening on your mobile, on iTunes, or Spotify is leave us a review. Leave us a good, a bad, or an indifferent review. I don’t care. Nor does Kirk. But it does really help the show. It means that we show up to new people. We’ve been growing lately. Like I say, I never thought I would get over a thousand shows, but we did that a little while ago. So if you could do that, both Kirk and I would be really appreciative. We’ll be back with another great interview next week. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye.
[00:54:50.200] – Ryan Logan
Hey, thanks for listening. We really do appreciate it. Why not visit the Mastermind Facebook group?
[00:54:56.200] – Jonathan Denwood
And also to keep up with the latest news, click wptonic.
[00:55:01.480] – Ryan Logan
Com newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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