Selling Coaching Services Online: Best Coaching Platforms For 2025
Discover the top online coaching platforms for 2025! Launch your coaching business with the perfect tools to attract clients and scale your services.
Are you looking to elevate your coaching business in the digital space? In this show, we explore the top online coaching platforms for 2025 that can help you sell your services effectively. Discover essential features, pricing options, and user experiences that will enable you to connect with clients and maximize your impact. Don’t miss out on the chance to enhance your coaching journey.
Best Online Coaching Platforms of 2025
Best WordPress Plugin Bundle
FluentBooking
Kajabi
Prices Kickstarter $89 | Basic $149 | Growth $199 | Pro $399 per month
PaperBell
Prices $57 per month
Podia
Prices Mover $39 5% transaction fees | Shaker $89 per month
Coaching.com
Prices $197 per month
Mighty Networks
https://www.mightynetworks.com
Prices: The Community Plan $49 | The Courses Plan $119 | The Business Plan $219 per month
This Week’s Sponsors
Kinta: Kinta
LifterLMS: LifterLMS
Convesio: Convesio
The Show’s Main Transcript
[00:00:01.980] – Jonathn Denwood
Welcome back, folks, to the Membership Machine Show, episode 127. We’re going to discuss the best-selling coaching services online and the best platforms to enable you to sell your services if you’re a coach of any type. It’s a great subject. We’ve got a lot of knowledge, Kirk, and we’d like to share it with you. We both think WordPress is a great solution, but we’ll also be covering some of the SaaS solutions available. It should be a great discussion. So, Kirk, I think you had a sneeze there, folks. I did have a sneeze. He was getting over it. So, Kirk, would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
[00:01:00.740] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah. Besides being part of the WP Tonic team, I run an agency called Manananomas. We primarily focus on membership and learning websites, and I also work closely with the great folks at Lifter LMS.
[00:01:13.340] – Jonathn Denwood
He’s a man of many talents. I’ve only got one talent, my beloved listeners and viewers. But like I said, it should be a great show. It’s a subject that causes some confusion. The point of this show is, to give you some independent advice and guidance. Both Kirk and I are very upfront about the voice we offer. It should be a great show. But before we go into the meat and potatoes, I got a message from one of our major sponsors. We will be back in a few moments, folks. Three, two, one. We’re coming back, folks.
Additionally, I want to point out that we’ve a great, inexpensive resource. We’ve a course, actually created by Kurt himself, that shows you how to build a membership/community website from start to finish on WordPress using Lifter and the best WordPress technology available in 2025. It’s usually slightly under $50, but if you go to this page, you’ll be able to get it at half price, plus a list of some special offers from the sponsors of the show, plus some recommendations on the WordPress technology to let you build that great WordPress-powered membership website.
[00:02:36.720] – Jonathn Denwood
You can get all these goodies by visiting wp-tonic. com/deals, Wp-tonic. com/deals, and you find all the goodies there. What more could you ask for? I say? Let’s get started. So before I go into my initial list, because of what I plan for this show, Kirk, I’ve got a list of broad subjects that I think people need to understand. And then, in the second half, we delve into specific platforms that could meet the coach’s requirements by mid-2025. But I’m going to ask you, how shall we kick off? If you were consulting with someone and they said, ‘I’m looking to build my business online, offering online coaching,’ how would you kick off the consultation, Kurt?
[00:03:35.160] – Kurt von Ahnen
The biggest challenge in the coaching space, Jonathan, is asking open-ended questions and looking for keywords in the customer’s or client’s response that signify an expectation or an assumption. So many times, people see something and think, ‘Oh, this is for me.’ I’m going to do this. For instance, Fluent Community. We both love Fluent Community, but there’s no real membership selling portion of Fluent Community. So you have to add that. That expectation is an assumption, but it is not inherent to the platform. It has to be baked in; it has to be built in when you build the site. And so I think that’s one of the essential things. What is your idea of a coaching site? Many people keep hearing the word ‘passive,’ as in passive income, and I’m not a firm believer in passive income. So to me, a coaching site is, do you want to offer live coaching? Do you want to do masterminds? Do you want to do… If you want to have a course site where you’re selling static courses and calling it coaching, that’s one definition of it, but I believe there’s so much more to it.
[00:04:46.150] – Kurt von Ahnen
You have to jump in and do what needs to be done, ask open-ended questions, and build the tool list before you start executing.
[00:04:56.320] – Jonathn Denwood
Yes, I think those are excellent points. Thanks for that, Kurt. I believe it’s multi-layered. You offer one-to-one coaching and promote it online. Perhaps you’ve a following in a specific niche and are already coaching people, and you’re looking to offer… You may be doing it face-to-face, and you’re looking to do it online because of the convenience and the broader audience you can attract. Great ideas, one-to-one. But then you have the educational side and the community side. These are bolt-ons, in my opinion. Great ideas, but if we get time, we’ll probably have a quick chat about those ideas. However, in this show, I think we’re discussing platforms that can enable you to start with one-to-one coaching, but also can expand into education, marketing, and group dynamics. So you’ve got the availability, you can broaden out. What do you reckon?
[00:06:23.960] – Kurt von Ahnen
I agree with you, but more to the point is understanding what the expectation or assumption is on the coach’s behalf. For instance, you mentioned the one to one coaching, maybe it’s live sessions, and then you get into, Oh, you wanted to book appointments. You wanted to book an appointment for a coaching session. You wanted to You wanted to do something on site. You wanted to do something virtual. You wanted to do… And there’s just a lot of assumptions in the space that all of these tools do all of these things, and they don’t. And so it’s very important to understand, bang for the buck and what your budget allows for, what are you going to grow as your minimal viable product to put yourself out there? And when you say starting with a new client, that’s brass tax. That’s what we’re getting to. What’s the way to get you from point A to revenue? Revenue, to me, is the big driving force there.
[00:07:20.820] – Jonathn Denwood
The other big thing that we’ll be touching a little bit on more in the second half, folks, is there’s a big difference between the technology required not enormous difference, but you got to be aware there are some differences between coaching and counseling. Because counseling, that’s under normally dependent almost all Western countries under a legal framework. And if you’re doing it online, there’s certain requirements you’ve got to meet, and especially in the US, there are some specific requirements. You don’t have to use a specific platform. You can use a specific platform, you can utilize WordPress, but you got to be aware of certain requirements. So we will be touching that probably in the second half. But I think another fact, people, they want the right platform platform. But there’s also the marketing because you might have a niche, but the reason why you want to do it online is probably you want more clients, you want to broaden out. So you need to offer. I think this is something a lot of people, not only around coaching, but I think we regularly see it in the lifter, in the broader community. There’s a lot of concentration upon the technology, upon the stack, but not enough concentration on the offer.
[00:08:54.640] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, copywriting the content.
[00:08:57.600] – Jonathn Denwood
The offer, the niche, and I put here the profitability is in the niche. Well, the money, or a more crude way of saying it, is the money is in the niche. I know that it’s a lifestyle, you want to help people. There’s a lot of legitimate people that want to do coaching. But if you can’t make a sustainable living at it, you’re going to have to walk away from it. So marketing is important. So gone are your thoughts What about the offer as I put as point one, really?
[00:09:34.940] – Kurt von Ahnen
I’ve made so many mistakes of my own and learned the hard way, Jonathan. I think it takes a certain transparency and humility to look at things and go, Man, I was totally off the mark on that. The thing is, is when you’re a coach, you have to have that inner transparency with yourself. Many times we focus on, I got a degree from such and such. I got a certification from this program. I’m a such and such certified speaker trainer coach. Let me assist you. Let me bring my magic to your business. And in reality, no one’s going to see that or take action on that. What needs to happen is you have to figure out the core thing that you fix for your niche. What’s that pain point? Are customers calling the owner’s phone? Are people starting fights at the service counter? What’s the thing? What’s the pain point that affects your perfect customer from executing business? And then how do you fix that? And so you highlight the pain point and then whatever your bandaid is for that pain point. And that typically turns into your best content for lead magnets and for marketing.
[00:10:45.060] – Kurt von Ahnen
If you go at it from a look how great I am perspective, that’s not going to work unless you’re famous or you have a bunch of video testimonials to back up how great you are. But that’s other people saying it, not you saying it. So there’s a big value in how How you formulate the offer and pitch the offer.
[00:11:04.200] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, it’s fantastic. I think to put some real meat and give a clear example, we have a few people that either build in or have got some traction around weight loss. I think it’s fantastic, but it’s an extremely competitive sector. Now, there is a lot of people in Western cultures. I don’t know what the obesity rate is in America and other Western countries, but it’s shockingly high. And so there’s a great need because it leads to diabetes, which leads to very unpleasant consequences. So there’s a load of people that need help in this. But just making offer, unless you’ve got already a well-known author, radio personality, Just pitching and your coaching, because you could be offering an education element, and also one-to-one coaching, they combine really well. But if you’re just pitching it at weight loss, it’s very unlikely you’re going to get any traction. You’ve got to find a subnish in the broad category, haven’t you?
[00:12:27.540] – Kurt von Ahnen
I always think about this, the The weight loss one is the perfect one. In my mind, I used to be much bigger than I am now. The alarm bells went off for me one day when I was assigned a middle seat on an airplane, and I didn’t comfortably sit in the middle seat on the airplane. I was like, that’s it. I got to do something about this. And so quite literally, if I were to release a weight loss program and pick a niche, it would be weight loss for business travelers, specifically people that fly. I would use that tired of not fitting in your seat as being the pain point. And then building my curriculum off of what could I do physically on corporate travel that would facilitate weight loss Because that’s typically what a lot of people struggle with in corporate America is just trying to figure out how do you have a corporate credit card in your pocket, be obligated to take clients out for entertainment and not put on £5 a week.
[00:13:27.460] – Jonathn Denwood
People overthink all this. It was the thing is, it’s not that difficult, folks. What do I mean by that? Well, there’s loads, Reddit, Facebook groups. There’s loads of groups, and you can research, are there any sub-niches that are coming up? Then you can just do some basic research on Google just to see trends or what terms people are searching for around your niche. Are they searching Because if they’re not searching, it’s very unlikely that you’re going to get any traction. So you got to… And there’s plenty of resources. You don’t have to spend any real money on specific SEO tools. You can just use some free tools to do some basic research on what are people searching? Is there a reasonable volume? Then you can look at the competition. Is there a lot of competition? Actually, there’s no competition, I actually think that’s a bad sign. You really got to think about this if there’s no competition. But on the other hand, if there’s tons and tons of competition, you probably haven’t niched enough. You probably need to niche even more. So this is a sweet spot or where you’ve got some competition, but it’s not over the top.
[00:14:54.980] – Jonathn Denwood
And then you really got to look at their wording around their offer and just trying to improve it a little bit. It is not jet science. You’d be amazed at the amount of people that don’t do any of this, folks. And that’s why they’re on the loser before they even start, in my opinion. On to the next thing, which is the landing page, because I could say they get sucked into the right technology and they don’t concentrate on after they’ve done what we’ve discussed a few moments ago, that research and that thinking really should then influence your landing page, your pitch page. What’s your thoughts on this?
[00:15:46.080] – Kurt von Ahnen
I’m just going to be super, maybe overly transparent here with you, Jonathan. Landing pages to me, I helped clients with them in the past, but they weren’t a priority for me per se. I just thought maybe it’s an overworked term, maybe it’s an overused or over easy button thing. I’m very suspect of easy buttons. But lately I’ve employed some landing page techniques and landing page things in my own business, and I have seen traffic increase. I have seen results or people add to the mail list depending on what the goal was. And so I’ve really come around. I’ve come around to the idea that I used to think if my website was good enough, I didn’t need these other things. That’s what I used to think. I used to think, Oh, if I have a good enough core property, I don’t need to be distracted with all these other things. I used to think that way about SEO. I used to think if my content is truthful and value, I don’t need these things. But the truth is, in today’s highly dense digital market, we do need purpose-driven, simple communication that highlights It’s a pain point, a solution, and an option to purchase or join a list.
[00:17:04.260] – Kurt von Ahnen
That’s what these landing pages do.
[00:17:07.200] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah. You’re going to be using social media and otherwise, which I’m going to touch in a second, Because if you’ve got a new domain and you’re publishing some content, it’s going to take an enormous while before. I know AI has appeared and people saying that SEO is finished. I don’t agree with that. I think it’s going to dramatically change It is changing, but the AI gets its recommendations from the Internet. So if you’ve got no content, you’re not going to be recommended by the AI agent. So the idea you can stop your SEO strategy is to me a bit ridiculous, but there we go. Other people would have a different opinion, wouldn’t they?
[00:17:52.380] – Kurt von Ahnen
I had literally just made a piece for social media myself looking at the way AI does. Because a lot of people are saying AI search is the new thing, right? How do you get searched in AI? I did a feature on that. And the number one thing that AI relies on is SEO results, search results. So this idea that search is dead, the idea that SEO is dead is complete, utter nonsense. People come up with these things. I know, they don’t care.
[00:18:22.440] – Jonathn Denwood
They don’t care what they’re saying. It’s probably always been that way, but I think the internet just makes it more It’s seeable.
[00:18:31.640] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah. I mean, I just love these cats with a, Stop podcasting. You don’t need to podcast. You don’t need to post on social every day. You don’t need to put out newsletters. We’ll show you how to grow your business. And it’s like, if you take away all the options to grow the business, How are you growing the business?
[00:18:46.170] – Jonathn Denwood
How are people going to know about you? So the other thing I see so much, so often in the groups that we both are engaged in, they have absolutely no marketing plan. And I’m not talking… I know if people are grown up in the corporate world in marketing, they can take this too far. I’m not saying you got to build something elaborate, but just some idea that you got to do something to get the will moving. I’m going to let you respond. What do you reckon?
[00:19:26.900] – Kurt von Ahnen
You’re going to make me the bad guy. The I think you’re giving corporate America way too much credit. I literally remember a head of marketing- You got some stories, isn’t it? Yeah. Head of marketing coming up to my desk and saying, Hey, we’ve had a meeting and we’ve got this idea. We’re going to craft three or four viral videos and we’re going to blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Do you even know what viral means? You don’t decide what’s viral. The rest of the world decides what’s viral.
[00:19:56.460] – Jonathn Denwood
It’s when your marketing director comes to you and says, Oh, we’re going to do a Facebook paid campaign. Let’s solve all our problems. How it is, you’re just going to burn a lot of money.
[00:20:07.440] – Kurt von Ahnen
I’ve been there. And so, again, I think you’re giving corporate America too much credit. Probably so. But to your point, we are in certain circles, and those circles are worried about-They don’t even discuss marketing at all, do they?
[00:20:24.660] – Jonathn Denwood
Most of the circles we mix with, do they?
[00:20:27.580] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, if you bring it up or you force the issue, you start to ask some questions.
[00:20:31.760] – Jonathn Denwood
They don’t want to discuss it really, though, do they?
[00:20:34.340] – Kurt von Ahnen
No, but I think if you notice, especially if we’re on a shared Zoom call, if you’re speaking or I’m speaking, or there’s a couple of others that are keyed into this, you look at the faces on the calls and people are writing notes. I’ve noticed in a lot of these situations, I’ll be having a conversation with somebody about marketing, about social, about list segmentation in a CRM, and I look and four or five faces on the call are buried down and writing notes. And so that shows that they’re open to the ideas of marketing, but they are… Marketing is hard. And I think it’s so hard that a person that is prone to ADHD type tendencies or to the imposter syndrome tendencies, which is a lot of the creator market, I think they procrastinate the issue until it becomes a red flag and the project runs out of money. I see it as being that big of a deal. If you’re not into marketing and you find yourself postponing or procrastinating on a marketing plan, just having the plan written is half the battle, you got to hire somebody. You got to bring someone in that enjoys it, that’s going to grab onto it and roll with it.
[00:21:53.860] – Jonathn Denwood
What I’m talking about, folks, is for your landing page, for your niche, you’ve done some SEO, you’ve done some keyword research, you put it into Google. Like I said, there’s a few free tools out there. I’m not going to go into it now. Might be in a future episode. If you want that, give us some feedback. Go to the WP Itonic YouTube channel and leave some comments about what you’d like us to cover in future episodes. And if it’s SEO, we’ll do it, folks. But it’s just doing some basic research about the keywords or phrases that people are searching for. You write them down, then you make a few videos, you put them on YouTube, you optimize the title. There’s some fabulous free AI tools that will cut the videos down so you can put them on TikTok, you can put them on Instagram, you put them on Facebook, you tag them, you might put them on LinkedIn, the short videos. Kirek does a fair bit of that. I do. I put a load of stuff on LinkedIn, and I try and spread it everywhere. But that’s what you’re going to do, folks. That’s why you should find a niche, because if there’s a niche and you’ve done a little bit of research and people are searching, they’re going to respond to your videos, to your cut down TikToks and that.
[00:23:21.380] – Jonathn Denwood
Then they’re going to go and you have a link to the landing page. They will get there, won’t they, Kurt? It’s not jet science, is it?
[00:23:28.040] – Kurt von Ahnen
No, they’ll get there eventually. And the niche has to be, and I hate to go back three lines up in our talk here, but the niche has to be a definable niche. I say I’m an eLearning and Memberships Specialist, but in reality, my real niche is helping corporate clients take their Scorm content to WordPress and save 70% of their budget. That’s the idea. I’m niching down, niching down, niching down until I find something that I can have ownership of. That’s my niche. I don’t have a lot of competition in that space, but I know the demand is high, so I execute on that. The other thing that you mentioned just now, which is so… Because you said, Oh, it’s not that hard. You go into Google, you do some research, you find the keywords that people are searching, you do this, you do that.
[00:24:19.280] – Jonathn Denwood
It’s for me now because I suppose it’s not so easy.
[00:24:22.460] – Kurt von Ahnen
No, people aren’t doing that. Your co-host is a great example of this. I spent a fair amount of time and developing a local SEO for my new home in Kansas as a web developer, as an eLearning developer. I kept saying developer, I kept saying developer. And then I finally did some AI search, and I’ve been I’ve been on this for about six months, Jonathan. And this time, the search came up different, and it started saying, designer, designer, designer. It kept coming up, web designer, web designer.
[00:24:55.840] – Jonathn Denwood
You’re really for the local market, it’s going to be mostly web designer. I’m sure If you had asked me, I would have advised you because I was, until about eight or six, seven years ago, I’ve got most of my clientele from Northern Nevada.
[00:25:11.360] – Kurt von Ahnen
Okay. But I think it’s fair to say, and I don’t think my website’s horrible. We could go through, we could do that someday, maybe. But the difference in the keyword is huge because if AI is searching for a designer and I’ve been- I got to be honest with you, what you should do, there’s no I’m not saying you should copy word to word, but just find the leading competitors in your part of Kansas and what they’re…
[00:25:41.720] – Jonathn Denwood
And just copy their SEO and modify it a bit. Just modify it. Just take this free tools that you can see the page titles, the H, the meta description, and just copy it. The Just tinker with it.
[00:26:01.980] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I don’t mind doing the tinkling, but let’s get back to coaches.
[00:26:04.860] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, let’s go back. The final thing, what is the package? Now, what is the offer? If your pricing is a nightmare, the coaching thing. I think having a free session or an inexpensive intro offer, they’re all good ideas, but it’s the package. You’ve got to make it clear what What they’re going to get from the coaching. They’re not interested in you, folks. They’re interested in what they’re going to get from it.
[00:26:39.900] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, okay, you say that. The way you said it, I know what you meant, but It came out backwards. When Jonathan says- That’s a big surprise, isn’t it? When Jonathan says they’re not interested in you, that is a fallacy, right? So they’re interested in the content, they’re interested in what they’re going to get from it and all that stuff. But when it comes to brass you can offer different levels of engagement with you through your property. The more access they have to you, the more expensive it should be. They actually want access to you, but not because you’re a nice guy. They want access to you because of what you’re bringing, how you deliver that content. And so a lot of my training sites that are based upon my skill sets or my things, it’s like, Yeah, you can have access to the course for 500 bucks. Let’s just pick a number. You can You want to have access to the course for 500 bucks. You want to have group coaching with me on a monthly basis? We’re at a thousand bucks. You want one on one coaching with me and your staff? We’re at $5,000 a month.
[00:27:40.300] – Kurt von Ahnen
And that’s just an example of they want that access to you, but you can’t make the offer all about you. The offer has to be about the pain point and how you’re helping them.
[00:27:49.720] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, it didn’t come across that well, but I think you could see where I was coming from. Yeah, no, I got it. It is going to be about you, but in the end, it’s the end result, folks. That’s what they’re in. Nobody pays a coach or gets coaching or therapy or whatever. They do it because they’ve got a problem and they think that you’re going to be able to help them with that problem.
[00:28:13.380] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, the deliverable.
[00:28:16.020] – Jonathn Denwood
I think we’ve had a good session. We’re giving you some insights about a process about… And don’t get deterred, folks. These aren’t giant things. And in the show notes, there’ll be a link to an article that I’ve written that goes into all this in a lot more detail. So we’re going to go for our middle break, folks. And when we come back, we’re actually going to be looking at some platforms that allow you to do the things that we outlined in the first half. We will be back in a few moments, folks. Three, two, one. We’re coming back, folks. We had a great first half. Before we’re going in the second half, I just want to point to a fantastic free resource. That’s the Membership Machine Facebook Group. It’s totally free. If you got any questions that come in your mind after you’ve listened or watched this episode, you can go there, join the group, and you can put your questions there, and me and Kirk and the other people of the group will respond. It’s a great free resource. So go to Facebook and put in the Membership Machine Show group, and it will come up and join.
[00:29:33.120] – Jonathn Denwood
So let’s look at some of the best online coaching platforms, online platforms in 2025. And let’s start with WordPress. Because we’re biased. We love WordPress. And I think it’s not specifically on the coaching, but I think the Lifter LMS You can adapt it and it can be the core engine, so people have to subscribe. I just think it’s a great solution instead of buying a membership plugin. But you’re more of expert. I think it can be adapted as a coaching platform, can’t it? And it gives you all the extras around education and group discussions and everything else that we’re talking about.
[00:30:30.200] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I can’t agree with you more, Jonathan. The more time that I spend in the Lifter LMS, the more in love with Lifter LMS I become, which probably doesn’t sound great to listeners, right? Because they think I’ve been bought and paid for. But it’s got membership tools. So you want to sell memberships? Great. What memberships? Well, as many as you want. And each membership has six different access plan options. So if you want to sell a monthly membership, an annual a lifetime membership, you can do it. And to Jonathan’s point, whenever you have a coaching platform, you usually, not always, but you usually want to have some base, at least some base training. Maybe it’s an intro to this or an intro to that. Well, you can add that directly into a Lifter LMS site and auto-enroll people into that curriculum based on the membership that they get with you. So to me, out of the box, Lifter LMS is one of the best options to get started because it gives you almost everything you need to create that MVP experience to get launched and create revenue.
[00:31:37.480] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, and you can take it to the next thing. Well, before… You can set it up so it takes them to a booking page where they can book a one-to-one session with your coaching session. But then it’s got all the elements that if you’re doing some courses or you decide private areas and you’re going to do group sessions, you’ve got it all there in one package and it’s free. And for a small additional, you can take the charges, Stripe payments. But you could also do that with another plugin that We’re going to be discussing, but I actually think it’s best to do it through Lifter. You’re going to need a page builder, a website builder. I think the best one for the For the people we’re talking about in this show, I think you can’t beat Cadence WP, the basic paid version. They offer a free version, but the paid version, I’m going to go through some prices at the end of this. It’s just great. What do you reckon?
[00:32:47.680] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I’m going to jump in with you on the Cadence conversation, but that’s also because if they go through WP tonic, obviously, they get starter templates and stuff through WP Tonic. But if they go outside of our circles, you can still have the option of starter templates. They have a great coaching template, and they have one that’s a counseling template and some other things. So you’re able to almost instantly build a site and then put in your own content and images over that format, and it will adjust itself to Lifter LMS very, very well.
[00:33:24.580] – Jonathn Denwood
The next part is Fluent Booking, and it’s just a great plugin. You We can do the payments through Fluent Booking, but it gives you a calendar, and it’s very similar to Calgary in look without the charges, the monthly charges. You just pay, it’s very cost-effective. Like I said, you host with WP, you get part of this, you get this anyway. But if you’re not hosting with WP, Tony, it’s not very expensive. Compared to the SaaS calendars, of solutions out there. I know Calgary, you get the free product, but it’s got limitations. You’re probably going to have to buy a pro version. It is just great, isn’t it?
[00:34:12.540] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, it… Fluent Booking And I just want to be really overly honest with listeners and viewers. There is some set up in it. And so when you set up Calendly and you’re trying to onboard yourself in Calendly, there’s some set up there,. Yeah, you got to put in your Zoom and you got to integrate your Google calendar and you got to this, you got to that. You got to do the same thing with fluent booking if you’re going to get all the features out of it. But what’s really nice is when you set it up, it’s in your website and you’re not having to deal with third-party links and all kinds of weirdness going on. If Calendly has a problem and that’s off, well, then people can’t book, right? Typically, Specifically, and what I’m thinking about now is I’m thinking about the web outage that happened at the end of last week. People are still talking about how parts of Google were down, parts of Amazon Web Services were down, StreamYard was down. All of these big SaaS platforms experienced an issue. Whereas an independently hosted WordPress website, guess what? Was still up, still functioning, and still working.
[00:35:22.340] – Kurt von Ahnen
And so I’m really, really big on having everything in my own site and being able to control it all from where I’m at.
[00:35:30.000] – Jonathn Denwood
The only problem, and I think I’m right about it, and it’s not Fluent Booking’s problem, is the integration with Zoom. If you go with a SaaS like Calgary, and there’s about three or four competitors, a lot of them have automatic set up with Zoom. You’ve got to, with Fluent Booking, I think I’m correct, you got to set up a Zoom app, and then they give you instructions, but you got to set the app. They give very clear instructions, and it’s totally doable. If you’re host with us, we do it for you. But it is a little bit… I don’t know how to word it. How would you word it, Kurt?
[00:36:16.420] – Kurt von Ahnen
It’s a multi-step process. It’s not like an OAuth thing where you sign in the Zoom and then say Connect. You have to create the app and then connect the app through your WordPress site. It’s the same with the Google calendar. With the Google calendar, You’ve got to create something in Google and then connect that thing in Google, and then it activates your calendar. Now, that’s if you want the sync to go both ways.
[00:36:41.730] – Jonathn Denwood
That’s more automatic with the booking, I think. I think, specifically, it’s the Zoom that’s a little bit…
[00:36:48.460] – Kurt von Ahnen
Zoom is always a task, right?
[00:36:51.190] – Jonathn Denwood
Well, it just made it worse, didn’t it?
[00:36:53.100] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah.
[00:36:53.800] – Jonathn Denwood
A year ago, wasn’t it?
[00:36:55.640] – Kurt von Ahnen
Just to be clear, I wasn’t sure if it came… Maybe I heard it wrong, but With Fluent Booking, there is a Stripe integration.
[00:37:03.350] – Jonathn Denwood
Oh, yeah, that’s easy.
[00:37:04.980] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, so you can have people pay for their appointments. Oh, yeah. So right through your own website, I use this a ton with people. For a landscaper in town, I’m like, So when you go and cut somebody’s lawn, how do you get paid? Because they’re not home when you go to cut the lawn. Oh, sometimes they bring me a check, sometimes this, sometimes that.
[00:37:21.060] – Jonathn Denwood
Most of what we’re discussing is not any more difficult than the SaaS. We are going to be, but it’s just this particular area of setting up fluent booking with Zoom.
[00:37:32.100] – Kurt von Ahnen
Once it’s set up, it’s great.
[00:37:33.550] – Jonathn Denwood
It’s rock solid, folks. The next thing, you’re probably going to want to do some email marketing, marketing optimization. I think a great mixture is WP Funnel with Melmint. It’s got the optimization great interface, and then you got a lovely selection of email templates. To me, Fluent CRM is another good choice, but I think for the particular target audience that we’re aiming at in this show, I think that’s a great solution. What do you reckon?
[00:38:10.720] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, again, it’s the target audience. For coaches that are launching something new and they want to focus on being a coach and not being an IT genius, WP Funnel and Mailment are great tools because of the templates. I use Fluent for quite a lot of things, but I’ve had to make my own templates to do the different things I want to do. You converted me into a WP Funnel, Mailment person, and it’s nice to be able to jump in there, grab a template, and throw something together with your content and send it. It’s really convenient.
[00:38:45.410] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, they’re both really great, aren’t they? Fluent CRM. I think they’re equally-Yeah, I think Fluent is more, I’m just going to say it, it’s more professional.
[00:38:55.480] – Kurt von Ahnen
It’s a real CRM. It does the automations. It does a lot of things. I think Fluent is my preferred CRM.
[00:39:04.560] – Jonathn Denwood
You know how I explain it?
[00:39:08.020] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, you’d say it’s like a… What’s it? Sales?
[00:39:10.900] – Jonathn Denwood
I say Fluent CRM is the active campaign of WordPress, and I say that WP Funnel with Melvin is the male light of WordPress.
[00:39:21.960] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, I would go that route. I’ve set up a couple of these. I’ve set up three so far, WP Funnel in the last two weeks. It’s a real intuitive platform. It automatically links things together for you and just makes things work.
[00:39:38.540] – Jonathn Denwood
Then you got the Zoom. Zoom is the easiest way so you can have online meetings. They go through fluent booking, they book a time, and then they’ll be able to log into a page. It will send them in via a reminder. You can have the link to the page where you’re going to have the Zoom. It’s app, so they’re going to have to have the app. Most people do, and it works on all devices, but is that another alternative? If you want web-based, so the people don’t… They just go to the page and you appear, and they appear. We offer something called Jitsy. Jitsy is open source, but we provide a plugin called Meet Pro that enables you to set all this up on WordPress really easy. If you’re buying it on your own, It’s not that expensive. Let’s quickly go through some prices. So Lift LMS is totally free. All you need is a Stripe add-on. It’s $149 per year. It’s a bargain. Cadence WP, they’ve got a number of prices, but you’re just going to… You got the free. But I’d go with the lowest offering with Pro, which is Express, $69 a year.
[00:40:55.480] – Jonathn Denwood
Fluent Booking, $79 a year. Wp Funnel Melmin, 239. It won’t send the actual email out, though. I’ve got to point that out. You need an email sending engine. If you host with WP tonic, you get that. But I think for what it offers, 239. It’s great value per year. And Zoom. Zoom is 159 per year. You can use the free version, but I think you really do need the pro. Or Or you could cut the 159 down and just use Jitsy with the Meet Pro, and I can’t remember what it is for one site license, but I don’t think it’s very expensive. That cut it down. If you’re going to use Zoom, All this comes to 695 dollars plus your hosting. If you’re using Jitsi, you probably can knock that down to below 500. It’s 500 plus hosting. If you host with WP tonic, you get all this as part of the hosting plan.
[00:42:03.540] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, if you’re going to-Apart from Zoom, you got the 159. For some reason in the back of my head, if you’re going to do the Zoom integration into your WordPress website, you need the Zoom Pro.
[00:42:19.840] – Jonathn Denwood
That’s what it is, the 159. That’s why you can’t use the free, isn’t it?
[00:42:24.300] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah.
[00:42:25.260] – Jonathn Denwood
Right. Like I said, if you’re hosted with WP tonic, you get I’ll call this apart from the Zoom. But you might want a web-based, not using a meeting app. If that’s the case, as part of the hosting, we set up it with Jitsy Meet Pro, and that’s web-based. The other person doesn’t need a app. They just go to a Pacific page and the meeting will be held on that page. Now, let’s look at some of the leading SaaS competitors, Kajabi. It’s not specifically aimed at coaching, but starts with the kickstarter. These are month-to-month prices, 89. It provides a ton for 89. It’s not crippled at the 89 price, but they’ve got some very severe limits. But I think as a coach, you’re going to have a fair bit of bandwidth before you have to go up to the next plan, which was their starter plan, which was $149. I think you can… There are some limits on… I think you’d be okay with a kickstart at 89, so it’s 90 bucks a month. Not the cheapest out there, nothing like WordPress. I think you can adapt it for coaching. You’re still… I can’t remember. I’m not sure if it comes with the calendar.
[00:44:00.000] – Jonathn Denwood
You’re going to have to use a third-party calendar system, and you’re still going to have to use Zoom or something, aren’t you? With Kajabi.
[00:44:10.980] – Kurt von Ahnen
With Kajabi, it’s got a… I thought it had a calendar system.
[00:44:14.220] – Jonathn Denwood
It might have a calendar, weren’t it?
[00:44:16.960] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, I thought it had a calendar system in it.
[00:44:19.400] – Jonathn Denwood
Right. What about the actual meeting? You’re going to have to use it. It integrates with Zoom easily, doesn’t it?
[00:44:25.720] – Kurt von Ahnen
It integrates with Zoom. Now, Zoom did change their integration thing last year. Previous to last year, I know that it did connect, but now this year, I don’t know if they’ve updated that or not. That was one of the things we had sent a question off to them, a support ticket to Kajabi, to see if they were going to update that. They said they had planned to, but they hadn’t yet. But I haven’t seen-They have to have a certain level relationship with Zoom because Zoom, it’s a private API, so you can just click and it connects.
[00:45:01.000] – Jonathn Denwood
If you don’t have a certain amount of revenue, they don’t share it. Paperbell. Paperbell is actually aimed at coaching. It doesn’t come with a website, though. I’m pretty sure about that.
[00:45:18.300] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, it says get my free website.
[00:45:19.830] – Jonathn Denwood
Oh, I’m wrong there. It used to. Sorry, I apologize.
[00:45:23.300] – Kurt von Ahnen
I don’t know. I haven’t used paper Bell. I don’t want to say things I shouldn’t say. Maybe I’m being a jerk. But it almost looks like WordPress multi-site on a theme from eight years ago is what it looks like. But it has some really good features.
[00:45:44.720] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, I’ve interviewed the founder of this. She had a very successful other online marketing optimization platform that she sold. She really knows what she’s doing. It’s $57 per For the month, folks. If it meets what you’re looking for, and it’s purposely designed for coaching, I think it’s got a fair bit of traction. I think of a Pacific SaaS, I think the non-focused coaching sasses are better, but of the specifically designed sass platform, I think paper bill is the leader. What do you think about that statement?
[00:46:37.900] – Kurt von Ahnen
Again, I haven’t used it, but I looked at all the features and I went through the site.
[00:46:43.840] – Jonathn Denwood
You don’t like it, do you?
[00:46:46.660] – Kurt von Ahnen
I think it presents a little ugly, but that’s not bad. I’m not saying it’s bad. It looks like design-wise, what we would have put out in the WordPress space for five to eight years ago, just with the font choices and the spacing and things. But the features look really top-notch. When you take a look at the features, you get a website, so you get your own website, great. Online payments, scheduling, meeting links, so it’s like, okay, so it does the scheduling. Client management, I notice it gives them a chance to see like sign contracts and completed surveys and purchase history. That to me is huge because that’s part of a… I use a to run Mañana Nomás that gives me the ability to share proposals and contracts and stuff like that with my clients. I see this as a similar platform.
[00:47:40.500] – Jonathn Denwood
That’s attractive. That’s something that WordPress can’t give you. But on the other hand, I know somebody is building something that will have a CRM. But on the other hand, you could utilize something like Zolo CRM or some of the other ones, and you get that. Or there’s like a like Monday, or there’s a few of them in there. But for 57 bucks, like I say, I think it’s for a SaaS that’s specifically aimed at coaching, I think You got to have a look at it. Another non-focused SaaS solution, broader audience, but you can use it as a coach is Podia. I actually think it’s paper Bell Podia. I really like Podia, what it does. The only problem is their lower plan, which is their mover plan. It’s $39, but they got this 5% transaction fee. Really, that puts me off. You got to look for the next plan up where you have no 5% transfer. That’s on top of the 2. 9% that Stripe is going to charge you, which is Shaker, which is $89. Then It’s really at the same price as Kajabi’s, Kickstarter. You really got to look at either of them and make your choice, really, haven’t you?
[00:49:12.500] – Jonathn Denwood
Or are you going to go with paper billing.
[00:49:15.600] – Kurt von Ahnen
I think the paperbell… If I’m not going to build my own thing in WordPress, out of the options we’re talking about today, paperbell is up at the top for me.
[00:49:24.420] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, I agree on that. I don’t know what their website Do I give any examples? I should have iron-head time today. I was going to refresh myself. It was about a year ago before I looked at paper bill. Do you give any examples of the websites that they provide?
[00:49:41.820] – Kurt von Ahnen
I didn’t really see any good clean screenshots. But they present well, right? So the assumption is I’m going to get a website that’s very similar to that environment. And so, again, huge assumption on my part, but that’s what I believe is coming So I think Paperbell was a viable option. Podia, when we reviewed Podia, I thought Podia was a great training platform that could be more for coaching. But when we got into the actual page builder and how it worked out function, that was substandard to what we’ve discussed previously on the show already.
[00:50:20.640] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, and you got the price metric. If you’re okay paying the 5 % is a non-brainer. It’s 39 bucks, but you’re going to have to pay five % plus the 2. 9. If that don’t bother you, I think it’s half the price of Kajabi’s, 89. If that does bother you, they’re both the same price, 89 dollars, right? Because you’re going to look. If the same price, you probably go with Kajabi.
[00:50:48.940] – Kurt von Ahnen
Whenever I look at these pricing models when there’s transaction fees, I think to myself, for a proof of concept, it’s acceptable. For my first 10, for my first 15 clients, it’s acceptable because I’m doing a proof of concept and I don’t want to make that big capital investment on my own. But if I made money, if I got revenue and had to give a portion of it to them, it helps my proof of concept. But you have to use discipline with these things. You have to say, ahead of time, when I get to 10 people, I’m turning it off and I’m going to the next thing. If you procrastinate- It never works out, does it? No, because I’ve seen people procrastinate and stick with and spend thousands more than they need to.
[00:51:33.160] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah. Next one. Great name, coaching. Com. You can’t get better at coaching. Com. You can’t get better than that. But it’s a hybrid, isn’t it? They’re offering coaching themselves. It’s a platform, and it starts at $197 per month.
[00:51:55.340] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, $197, right?
[00:51:57.080] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, $197. It starts at at that and goes forth. And it’s a mixture of coaching with training with the platform, isn’t it?
[00:52:11.520] – Kurt von Ahnen
So this is one of those things, Jonathan, that really strikes me the wrong way. It’s like the school ads, right? Become part of school, and we’ll teach you how to use school to make money. It’s like, they’re crazy about that.
[00:52:27.780] – Jonathn Denwood
I don’t need that.
[00:52:30.000] – Kurt von Ahnen
That’s like a joy in Amway, and we’ll show you how to make money being an Amway person. It’s like this crazy multi-level marketing scheme where it seems like the only people making money at it are the people teaching other people how to do it and never make it.
[00:52:43.060] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, it’s just an opinion. I’m not saying that they’re doing anything, but other people love it because they are getting coaching, and I don’t know the quality of the coaching they’re providing, but that’s where it starts. So it’s a hybrid, folks, and you go and have a look at it.
[00:52:59.320] – Kurt von Ahnen
But What I will say, the platform is very modern, very up to date, very slick, very clean. All the screenshots and all of the pictures and all of the formatting is…
[00:53:14.080] – Jonathn Denwood
Well, to be fair to you, what you were saying about paper Bell was spot on because they haven’t updated the website for six years.
[00:53:23.700] – Kurt von Ahnen
When I was looking at the paper Bell thing, it said something about being founded in 2007. I thought that- Six, seven, eight years since they’ve updated the website. I thought it was very 2010 to 2015-ish with the design. Whereas coaching is very modern, very clean, very well-branded, very consistent, which lends a lot of credibility to it. Whether it’s true or not, it lends a lot of credibility to the program.
[00:53:52.500] – Jonathn Denwood
To be fair to them, if you’re going to go with the basic with Kajabi, they want $149 month to month. You get all this coaching and other stuff for 197. I suppose it depends on what your priorities are, doesn’t it?
[00:54:07.660] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, it comes… Remember at the very beginning of this episode, I said, you said, How would you approach somebody? I’m like, Well, you have to do that needs assessment. You got to ask those open-ended questions to find out what this client really needs. Sometimes they need the coaching and the kick in the pants and the inspiration to make something happen. Other times, they just need a website to promote what they already got.
[00:54:27.580] – Jonathn Denwood
On to the last one, Mighty Networks. This is It’s not community-focused, but it’s got the marketing, it’s got a lot of traction. It’s the J-R-B and Mighty Networks cross-attacking one another. They got a community plan that starts at $49 month to month. That’s pretty good value. And you do get app. I don’t think you need app, but they do provide app. It’s got all their branding over it, right? And you can do coaching with it. They promote it as a coaching platform. I despise my networks in a way because I think it’s the dog’s breath of the interface. I know that they have attempted to improve it, I still think compared to some other platforms, especially Kajabi, or if you’re looking at Community SAS, Circle. Circle or Kajabi, I think they got much better interfaces than Mighty Networks. I think it’s like I say, but I don’t know what you think. It’s just my opinion.
[00:55:41.220] – Kurt von Ahnen
Mighty Networks, to me, has always been In my inbox, in my experience, in my samples, it’s always been hype over substance. It doesn’t mean it’s a bad product, right? But I believe the hype is well overplayed. When When you go to their website and it says, Join the free master class and learn how to build a $1 million community, that is setting the bar so unbelievably high for a coach getting into the space that it sets a false expectation. It doesn’t mean the product is horrible. It just means the hype greatly over-extends what I believe the core capacity is. I think people really need to get their head around reality about when they build a membership a course or a coaching property, they need to really understand. Again, go back to what the offer is. What’s the offer? What are you really selling? Is it based in person-to-person communication or one-to-many communication? If so, what is that market value? I think Mighty Networks comes at it from the membership perspective of, Hey, if you got 10,000 people paying this much per month, you’d make a million dollars. In reality, it’s just not that attainable to the average person.
[00:57:01.460] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah, it’s not terrible. Don’t get me wrong, folks. People love it. But I just think compared to some of the other sasses, they have improved it, but I still think it’s subpar in actually working out how the bit its work and getting it all set up. Then I think I’m on the right path because they’ve got an army of consultants that will set it up for you. But they’ve got the same thing with Kajabi. I think Kajabi is an easier than Mighty Networks, but it’s not the easiest depending on your experience. Both have got a lot of educational material. But I think Kajabi always pushing how easy it is because it’s dependent on your prior experience.
[00:57:47.820] – Kurt von Ahnen
When you go to Mighty Networks and you start going through it and really starting to look at things, and our topic today was coaching. Their number one topic on their website is coaching. It says coaching, creators and entrepreneurs. Online courses. It goes right through it and you go, oh, that makes sense. But when you start to what Jonathan just said about consultants and stuff, to me, it’s almost like the go high level of community, right? There’s all these go high level experts that want to teach you how to put a CRM in your web and do all these things. I just had a client spend $6,000 with a go high level expert and get zero Goose egg results because they never did the needs assessment with They never said, what is your core offer? What does your avatar look like? They put out a bunch of weird marketing and forms and tried to drive traffic, but traffic to what? They didn’t have a firm understanding.
[00:58:44.540] – Jonathn Denwood
Often when you talk about… So now we like WordPress, but there’s more hoops to jump through. But that’s why six years ago, one of the reasons why I started WP tonic is that We attempt to remove a lot of those, the best of our ability, remove some of those hoops for getting people started. That’s the basic philosophy of WP tonic. But apart from WordPress, if you had to choose one of these sasses that we’ve talked about, which one would you choose?
[00:59:23.440] – Kurt von Ahnen
I’m still with my original thought. I’d probably go with Paperbell. Paperbell. Sorry. Paperbell.
[00:59:30.880] – Jonathn Denwood
I’m surprised. But I would as well for 57 bucks.
[00:59:36.620] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, you know I’m cheap, right? It’s part of the reason I stick with what we do as our niche, right? Is I make my investment and then I optimize that investment over and over and over again with my clients, which I’m able to do because of the ownership and flexibility of WordPress.
[00:59:54.820] – Jonathn Denwood
The only color of that, I would put is if I’m just If I’m going to think I’m just going to do coaching and I’m not prepared to look at WordPress, I go paperbell. If I think I’m going to be doing courses and more educational stuff, I’ll probably go with Podio along As long as I’m okay with the $39 plan, the 39. 5% transaction fee, if I’m thinking I’m going to be doing courses on that, I’ll probably would then look at Podio and their mover. If I’m looking at the next plan, I’ll probably go with Kajabi because there’s the same price, basically. But like I say, paper Bell, if I’m just going to do the traditional online coaching, if I think I’m going to mix it with courses and other stuff. I’ll probably go with Podia.
[01:00:52.360] – Kurt von Ahnen
I’m just going to call it out while we’re doing this episode because I think it fits really well into the conversation. I have I’ve counseled many people that have had a coaching platform without course ability. And then they go, Oh, through doing all these courses and doing all these hostings, I’ve realized I’ve got all these recordings and all this content, and I want to make an online course about it. And what they’ve done is they end up doing these weird, crazy connections to Google Docs, Google Sheets, Google Slides, Google whatever, and giving people access to their Dropbox folders. And it ends up just being this really weird Frankenstein experience of, well, I do the coaching calls on the website, but then I give them access to these resources in these folders and this weird stuff. And folks, if you can avoid that, I’m going to challenge you to avoid that with every fiber of your being, because that is a nightmare to manage.
[01:01:52.980] – Jonathn Denwood
And to finish off, you’re probably wondering, folks, why I didn’t include ‘learnable’ or ‘teachable’. Well, So basically, compared to Podio and the $39 a month, they don’t compete. No. I think for what they provide, they’re twice the price of Podio at $ 39. If the 5% is okay with you, the $ 39 that Podio is, it’s a much better value. And I think if you’re looking a bit more, I believe the kickstart of playing at Kajabi is better value than the plans offered by Teachable or Learnable.
[01:02:32.720] – Kurt von Ahnen
Or Thinkific. Thinkific is another platform that has recently changed its policies, and users are learning the hard way that it can become expensive. I have a question for you, Jonathan.
[01:02:41.240] – Jonathn Denwood
I have you. I’m getting worried now.
[01:02:44.280] – Kurt von Ahnen
When you think about what we just discussed, do you think I’ve managed to confuse our listeners?
[01:02:51.880] – Jonathn Denwood
That’s what I think.
[01:02:53.700] – Kurt von Ahnen
Do you think it’s easier to use one of the course platforms, such as Podia or Kajabi, and then factor in links to Zoom or Google Meet calls? Or do you think it’s easier to have one of these coaching platforms, such as coaching.com or Paperbell, and then transition people to a separate course platform if necessary?
[01:03:17.060] – Jonathn Denwood
Well, that’s the difficult one. Because then you probably think that’s what you could use Podio for, couldn’t you? Because you could… Many people use the course.
[01:03:28.080] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah. And realistically, I’m just going to mention it again: if you went the WordPress route, you would consistently have the same URL available and options to expand in either direction.
[01:03:43.060] – Jonathn Denwood
Yeah. As long as you are Happy with the 39 and the 5 %, and then you go up to the 89, Podio. It’s Paperbell or Podio, they’re the two that I would look at. Or consider WordPress, as it offers more control over ownership. Expansion is unlimited. Whatever you’re playing, you’ll be okay with WordPress. However, if you’re not using Zoom, you’re likely still looking at something under $600, probably around $ 580, plus the hosting. Reasonable hosting costs are typically $25 to $35. So do the math. So, Kirk, what is the But if you go with WP tonic, it becomes much more attractive. So what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and what you’re up to, Kurt?
[01:04:44.080] – Kurt von Ahnen
For a personal connection, LinkedIn is the clear choice. I still check LinkedIn almost every day, and I’m the only Kurt von Ahnen there. I think that’s why I like it so much. I’m easy to find. For business, it’s Manana Nomas. Manananomas.com for the website, Manana Nomas on X, on Facebook, everywhere else.
[01:05:01.660] – Jonathn Denwood
That’s fantastic. And if you want to support the show and have gained some value from this episode, why not check out the WP Tonic YouTube channel? I post multiple times every week on that channel. Subjects are very similar to what we discussed in the podcast. It’s free, and it also supports the show. So go over to WP Tonic’s YouTube channel, subscribe, and that’s a great way to support the show, folks. And I’ve got over 1,600 videos on there. A few weeks ago, I surpassed 10,000. It went under. It’s gone back up again. They take some subscribers. I get a load of new ones, but it’s gone back over to 10,000. Now, it went up to 10,5. It’s gone down, I think, to 10,2. It fluctuates up and down like a yo-yo, but the directory has been trending upward. It’s an outstanding achievement to reach 10,000 at the end of next year. I plan to get it over 20,000 plus. We’ll see you next week with another great topic to help you build a successful, community-focused website. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye.
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