How To Sell WordPress LMS Systems to Large Cooperations with Kurt von Ahnen of iManna No Mas

Kurt von Ahnen was a precocious young man raised in a Philadelphia suburb. A non-conformist of sorts, he announced in third grade that he wanted to author a book. He was told that since he didn’t even do his language arts work, it would never happen.

In 7th grade, Kurt had a paper route. When one boy failed to arrive to get his papers for the route – he took the route over, then another, then another. What the newspaper branch manager didn’t place together was that Kurt had franchised the paper routes and was paying other boys only a portion of the routes as he was covering the collecting and accounting.

In High School he was told with the rest of the class to write a report on where he’d go to college. Having already been made the manager of a local furniture store, he said he’d pass on college as he was already making more than the teacher. After all, in the 80’s, more than 80% of the people making more than $50,000.00 per year were in retail. So why go to college.
In his senior year, he was invited to leave his high school and told he would never amount to anything.

Finally, in 2007, he made the leap and followed through on the dream from 3rd grade. He published Service Writing in Black and White changing the trajectory of his career. He’s gone on to become a John Maxwell Certified Leadership Speaker and Coach. He’s managed the training departments for two of the most prestigious Powersports companies and grown his own Leadership Academy. He speaks to youth whenever possible – urging them to chase their dreams. Never let someone tell you can’t do something

Jonathon: Welcome back folks to the WP tonic show. This is episode 418. I’ve got a great guest. I say that every week. But I am actually really looking forward to this discussion. We’ve got Kurt Von Ahnen on the show. Probably totally butchered his surname but I think I’ve done better than last week, which was a slightly embarrassing. Kurt, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?

Kurt: Sure, sure. Kurt Von Ahnen and I run a company called Imanna No Mas. And a podcast and stuff like that. But I’m also a full time employed at Suzuki Motor of American in charge of the training department. So I use quite a bit of WordPress products and learning management systems and stuff like that. And I’m thrilled to be on the show. Jonathan, thank you so much for inviting me.

Jonathon: Like I said I’ve been really looking forward to the discussion. And I’ve got my great cohost Adrian. Adrian, would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?

01:22 Adrian: Hi, my name is Adrian. I’m the CEO and founder of Groundhogg. We produce marketing automation and sales tools for companies that use WordPress.

Jonathon: And I’ll just give you a quick outline what we’re going to be discussing blessed listeners and viewers. I asked Kurt to come on the show because basically I want to discuss what’s it like to use something like Lifter LMS or Learn dash in a corporate environment? What are some of the challenges if you’re an agency you’re bidding against a very large established SAS product? Some tips in science about utilizing open source software like WordPress with these great learning management plugins in a corporate environment. I just thought Kurt was a great guy to come on the show and give an outline. Which is something you won`t hear on a lot of other podcasts. So I thought it’d be a great subject. Before we go into the main part of this discussion. I want to mention one of our great sponsors. And that’s Kinsta hosting and Kinsta only specialize in hosting WordPress websites.

And if you are a power user, or you are an eLearning entrepreneur, or you are a developer. Or consultant, you need really good quality WordPress hosting to make your learning management system a success. And that’s what Kinsta offer. They offer some of the best technical support on the market. All their technical support reps are experts about WordPress. You won’t have to wait to be transferred to a level Three support technician. Cause they all are. You also get some of the best UX design in a custom interface. You get staging site, one click back up, the choice of being able to choose what version PHP in the interface. I could go on and on, but it’s a class environment and they are a class company. So if you’re looking for a real great WordPress hosting partner, go over to kinsta.com and see what they got to offer. And please mention that you heard them on the WP tonic show.

Now, Kurt what do you think some of the challenges, there are going to be a pretty large initial question. But maybe we can just you just put it into little chunks. But my first question is. What are some of the challenges that maybe an agency or somebody in the large organization that thinks WordPress with Lifter LMS or learn dash would be a great solution? What are some of the challenges he or she is going to face trying to get accepted in a large organization?

Kurt: Well, Jonathan, I think back to the call where you and I first came up with the idea to do the show together. And the question had come up, you know, what obstacle is there to get it up? And I said the cost. And my idea of the cost was completely contradictory to why I think people expect it. And that was, I think we’re just too cheap. When you look at some of the custom learning programs that are out there and some of the things that these established companies have been using for a decade. Outdated back end interfaces, it’s hard to get your zip files up. I mean go on and on about the problems with the systems.

Corporate America has accepted these problems as the norm. And they haven’t recognized that there are newer, cleaner alternatives that are faster. Not only faster and better, but cheaper. And when you go into corporate room and you say, Hey, I can take this five hundred thousand dollar package that you’re paying for and give you something better, faster, and cleaner. And lighter for your server and give it to you for less than a hundred thousand dollars. There’s a certain air of disbelief there. And I think that takes a lot to overcome with some established gray haired folks that are running the show.

Jonathon: Yeah. Well, there’s kind of an old saying in the IT industry. No medium-size managers ever been sacked for saying that the company should use IBM. You’re not going to get the site based. It’s not always the greatest solution is a bit about cliché Shane, isn’t it?

Kurt: Yeah, yeah. It’s one of those obstacles for me. And in fact, before I did the corporate thing with Ducati and Suzuki and was doing my own thing. I actually ran into a deal where I thought that I was helping these companies with super affordable web packages. And I kept getting really low quality clients that prepared to be online. And so I doubled my prices, I got better clients and it was easier to close the sale. And then I doubled my prices again. And it was even easier to close the sale and get better clients. And I thought, well, this is crazy. I did it over and over and over again. Until finally Ducati became a client. And after three or four years of working with Ducati as a contractor, they brought me in full time as an employee.

And that’s when I built their training program. So it’s one of those where I think pricing, especially when you’re a solo person, a solopreneur trying to work in the learning management space. I think you look at the cost of a project or you look at what you project as a fee would charge. And you’re trying to be competitive and you’re trying to earn the business by giving them a smoking hot deal. And I think you’re hurting yourself. I think you need to price accordingly to the market and then realize that when you’re dealing with a bigger company, there’s a lot more emotional tax. There’s a lot more mental tax that goes on that bid than you planned for. And you’re going to do the work and earn the money anyway. So you might as well charge it up front.

Jonathon: So can you give me an example before I turn it over to Adrian. Can you explain a little bit about your background? Cause I can see all these tools in the background. Listeners, if you go and watch this on the WP tonic YouTube channel, you’d be able to see that it got a lot of tools. Are you based in the motor sport industries? Is that how you were introduced to Ducati and Suzuki? Cause your part that evolvement, that industry in general.

Kurt: Yeah. Yeah. My parents split up when I was six years old, so my dad pissed off my mother and got me a dirt bike. And I’ve been riding motorcycles ever since. So I love bikes. I raced motorcycles for twenty years. I became pro at the end of it and realized just how slow I was. The only time you saw me on TV in a race is when the leaders were going past me on the front straightaway. So I can’t brag about a racing career, but I can kind of lean on that experience as to what really got me into the power sports industry. I’ve worked for multiple car dealerships, worked in the airlines, and then got into the OEM side. The original equipment manufacturer side of power sports. And I love working in the industry even though our industry is suffering really badly with a downturn in the economy and sales going down.

It’s still a great industry and a great support to be a part of. With Ducati I actually became a Ducati master technician. And I became their technical trainer and taught everybody in Canada, United States and Mexico. And it was then that I realized if you’re going to have a quality instructor led course, you have to have a quality theory course ahead of that. Because when you drag people from all over the country to a training arena. And you put tools in their hands. You want to make sure you gave them the opportunity to see the theory first. And that was one of the missing things that Ducati really didn’t have in place in America when I took that program over. So I used Moodle at the time. And I’m a big person with open source and shareware and things that are free and anything to save a buck.

So I use Moodle and the backend was a little confusing. I tried to teach coworkers how to do the reporting and stuff like that and it was always an issue. Like I could figure it out and I thought something was wrong with everyone else that couldn’t. But it just seemed to be one of those things that were more of an obstacle than a blessing. And so when I left Ducati and went to Suzuki, I looked at other options that were WordPress and more visually based. I thought easier on the end user. And I’ve been really happy with the options I’ve used so far.

Jonathon: That`s great, over to you Adrian.

Adrian: So just for the couple of companies that you’ve mentioned so far, you seem to be focusing on both Suzuki and Ducati. Are those the big ones for you?

Kurt: Those are the two serious ones I worked for before that was all dealership based. I worked at a dealership in Albuquerque. I’ve done a few in Denver, started in Pennsylvania. So at the dealer level and at the service level for dealerships, I didn’t have to do any of this stuff. And it was during the downturn economy 2007/2008 that I took this little web hobby of mine and said, you know what, if I can’t keep providing for my family in a retail environment. I’m going to do like a business to business thing. And I started building sites and basically my own agency in Albuquerque.

Adrian: For those larger companies were the training that you actually built and the backend that wasn’t for the customers, that was actually internal.

Kurt: For the technicians in the field. So I got to be real careful saying like retail, wholesale, however you want to phrase that. Because like Ducati’s an office run really with thirty people in a room. So if you said internal, a lot of people would think it was for those thirty people. It was really for the six hundred technicians that worked around the country, Canada and Mexico.

Adrian: But like they don’t actually like work for the company. They’re in like the dealerships.

Kurt: Exactly:

Adrian: Gotcha.

Kurt: And then by design like Ducati, Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, all those companies, they wouldn’t make their training material available to the general public. Which is you don’t want to say it’s open to the public. It’s only open to it’s like a closed network.

Adrian: So you have to get the gateway access first.

Kurt: And you’ve got to do membership management and passwords and nothing can be open. And so it takes a little management on the back end, which is part of that statement I made at the beginning.

Adrian: This leads me into my follow up question. Thank you for that segues. When you’re actually going to these larger organizations and you’re going through the process and you’re answering their questions. And you say, we can do all of this for you for like this much less amount of money than what you’re currently paying for whoever else. What does it that you actually include in that package in order to make it seem like, oh my God, you know, this is really, really what we’re looking for. Is it just the LMS site? Is there a support that goes with it? Is there some sort of other package that recurs yearly? Like what are you actually selling to these companies?

Kurt: So this is where I sound like I’m not patronizing you Adrian. I’m trying to pat you on the back. I’ve seen you on a few of these calls and I think you’re a wonderful speaker and sales person with the product you represent. You’re kind of inspiring in that way. It’s the same toolset that I use when I’m talking to a big company that you use when you’re talking to folks. It’s a needs assessment first. So I go in, I interview that client and I literally sit down with a legal pad. And I just start asking questions and writing things down. How many learners do you think you have? What’s the timeframe to get things done? What are your heavy season and your light season for web traffic and bandwidth? And a lot of times they don’t have those answers. They’ve been in these positions for decades. And as executive management, they just don’t know.

So then, you sow that seed by asking the question. And then at the end of that, I basically look at my legal pad and I go, well the good news is I can meet twelve out of fourteen of these needs. Or I can meet nine out of twelve whatever. And then typically, and this is more about my sales technique than product. But they’ll say, well how much is that going to cost? And then I’ll say, well realistically I think what we need to do is you take this to the people that are actually making the buying decision. Because I know it’s not you. And you see what the budget is that you can afford for this type of activity. Get back to me and I’ll see how many of these items we can keep on the list with the budget you have available.

Adrian: Slick.

Kurt: And then it’s amazing the budget always comes back higher, higher than what I would have asked for. And then then its simple cause then I can say, you know what, good news, great news. You know, I found out that I can also, you know, subcontract, sublet, whatever and take care of these three missing bullet points for you for the same money. And then it becomes a value add conversation. I make more money, they get full services and I’m able to employ a couple of contractors on the side.

Adrian: Awesome. Back to you Jonathan.

Jonathon: Yeah, so I thought that was a great outline. But obviously you had these connections in the motor cycle industry. How do you think agencies or consultants or somebody? This won`t apply to somebody in turn or that wants to champion utilizing something like WordPress for their training platform. But let’s this concentrate on external, that you might not have those internal relationships. Do you think? What if you in the shows, what kind of outreach would you do? What would be the kind of approach you would utilize to get there? That first conversation.

Kurt: I can tell you specifically what doesn’t work. And that is going through LinkedIn and trying to figure out everybody’s corporate email based on their first name, last name and corporate URL. And cold calling people with emails. I must delete a hundred emails a day. For me it’s all relationship based. And whether you have that relationship because you’re in the industry and you’re already a hot wire in. Or whether you make that relationship, you can do it through LinkedIn. You can friend somebody messaged them, start to get to know them. And then transfer that conversation. But I am really against the whole cold calling issue and trying to get people to buy $100,000 package because they recognize your name on LinkedIn. It’s not gonna work. And I should be clear about another thing, Jonathan. And that is when I say that I was slow at racing and people didn’t know who I was. That’s not an understatement. So it wasn’t a plug and play thing for me with Ducati. I actually published a book on service writing in 2007. And Ducati found that book online.

They read the book and then they went, oh this guy knows everything about service. And so they contacted me through that book and then they said, hey, you know, who are you? And I said then they got the thing like I’m in power sports. And they were like this is awesome. You worked in dealerships, you’re in power sports, you’re a motorcycle enthusiast and it all just kind of stacked up. And then they said, okay, well we would like to talk to you about writing a course for us. And that’s how the whole corporate training thing really took over. It was like, so you want me to write a course? I wrote it and then I said, how much do you want to pay for it? Cause now I already wrote it. And then they said, well we don’t really want to buy the course.

How about if you teach the course? I said, well I can certainly teach. That’s fine because I was an MSF instructor. So I taught the course and then they said we want to have big events in Las Vegas. I said, okay, great. I’ll go to Vegas. You got to pay my travel. And then they said, but we don’t have anyone to run those events. Could you run those events to like do the bookings and the catering and all that stuff? Okay, sure. Like I don’t know how to do it but I’ll figure it out. And that’s just one thing after another after another. Four years of that and it was really successful and that kind of became my niche.

Jonathon: Well yeah, I understand. Thank you for outlining that because it’s like most things there was a lot of steps in building credibility and establishing relationship. That’s what you were trying to point out. Thank you for that. We’re going to go for our break folks. We will be back and we’ll be delving in this world of pitching or developing learning management systems for corporate clients. We read back in a few moments folks.

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Jonathon: We are coming back. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation so far. It is exactly where I was hoping we were going to go with your help Kurt. Like we were saying in the first part of the show. I think what you were outlining is what a lot people outline. You had built some credibility in the industry through publishing this book and your background and it’s not a lot people. That’s why podcasting or doing any kind of presentation and building up your credibility in a particular industry is so important. Isn’t it? Now what I think another factor Adrian touched it. Is that also large corporations and large clients are also interested in the support. Are you going to be there consistently as a small or medium agency or consultant? How to you overcome those natural reservations that the support standards aren’t going to be there?

Kurt: Well, I’m going to actually go back to something you said earlier, Jonathan. You said that you had worked with a couple of mega churches. And I’ve been involved in church for a long time. I’ve been a youth pastor for years. And I just seem to have a way to tie into really responsible kids between the ages of sixteen and twenty five. And you know, people say, oh, well you’re leveraging, you know, your gift of faith to leverage youth for low pay or whatever. I mean, call me a jerk if you want, but it works out really well and it gives these kids a real life experience on how to deal with things. So if it’s as simple as, hey, I’m going to pay you so much an hour or so much to answer this phone or, or respond to these emails, they’re thrilled to get the work.

And I’m thrilled to have someone responsible that can answer a customer’s query in less than ten minutes. And for me, it’s the quickness of the answer. And I have obligations to, it’s funny, I call Suzuki my number one client. Because I do other things besides Suzuki. But when I am at Suzuki, I’m there 100%. And so, and Suzuki gets everything I got when I’m on the clock. So if there’s a customer issue or a client issue with something else, I need someone that can answer that email or take that phone call. Or at least by me, the time to make that personal contact back and fix whatever the situation is. And it works really, really well for me. I’ve also read like Tim Ferris’s books and stuff and there are a ton of options for people that aren’t in our position. My position, there are a ton of options for people to sublet or subcontract this type of service support work at a very reasonable rate. And I advise everybody to look into that kind of stuff. Because you can be a one man shop working in a loft in your house. And put together a couple of hundred thousand dollar deals and know that you’re going to pay thousands of dollars for support labor on the back end. But you’re going to be able to sell those big deals.

Jonathon: That’s great. Over to you Adrian.

Adrian: So a lot of us, me included, are small businesses. Our mantra is move fast and breaks things. We all are super creative and we love to just pull the trigger on whatever makes it or whatever feels right at the moment. However, I am intuitively or I entirely know that that’s not the way that the corporate world works. And a lot of people or most likely a lot of our listeners are probably not all too familiar with that corporate structure either. So how would you recommend that someone who’s not or wasn’t born out of like that corporate infrastructure. And actually tailor their process and to work in those companies and how would they manage the relationship in between themselves who are like super creative and we fast and break things and all that. All everything that I said into also being able to understand what the needs of essentially the corporations are and what their processes are and how fast they move. How does one manage that relationship?

Kurt: You are describing exactly what I work in it Suzuki. And it should be no secret to people in the industry. So I’m not breaking any corporate rules. There are amazingly socially conservative. So when I told friends in the industry I was going to go to work at Suzuki, they said, dude, you’re going to be the best thing that ever happened there. You’re going to love it. It’s going to be great, but you’re not gonna be able to do anything for the first year. And I went I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Cause they told me in the interview, they want me to do this, this, this, this, this. And he goes, they’ll tell you all kinds of stuff in the interview, but when you go to pull the trigger and make stuff happen, they’re going to freak out.

And there’s a saying in the pen, you know, the, it says the protruding nail always gets hammered. So if you’re the guy in the room with the new ideas and always getting the spotlight man, then they’ll beat on you until you leave. And that’s a cultural thing. That’s a phrase. So I will tell you, it took a lot of time. And it took tenacity and you have to have, I know you’ve got this a sense of humor. You have to be able to, for me, I’ve got Asian vice-presidents now that, you know, high five me in corporate meetings and stuff like that. And it’s because over three years I’ve been able to earn their trust by saying I can do this watch. And then three days later go and look, it’s done.

And then a week later goes and look, I did it last week and it still works. And then small things, bigger things, bigger things, bigger things. And my key to working with these corporations has been stair stepping that relationship and each small step is just exponentially a little bit higher than the next one. The same thing happened at Ducati. You would go over to Bologna, Italy and talk to those folks. And Toshiba was who did their e-learning internationally. And then I built the Moodle site just for North America. And I met the [inaudible 23:34] people. Hopefully I’m saying the name right. Sweet folks, nice people from I can’t remember where they’re from. It`s a Southern town in Italy. And it was great. The relationships were fantastic. But Ducati motor company in Italy didn’t trust me with the project. Until I started to establish myself with the American project and blow it up.

Adrian: So it was like those stairs, steps, and scene. And when you start off with small, small projects first and you bite off a little bit of a time. And as you can build that relationship and they see that it works, it becomes easier to do the things that the creative people want to do and pull triggers on all sorts of stuff. And create and make big things happen.

Kurt: I tried to explain this to people that work on my team with me. I run a team of creative people and we all have these great big giant ideas and goals. And I’ll go into these corporate meetings with the other upper managers and I know that the goal is this. But all I pitched them is this. Because I know that if I were to hit them with this, they’d freak out and say, there’s no way.

We’re not going to write a check for any of it. So you hit him with this one and it works and then you go this far and then you go okay, now we’re here. And I’ve had to do that multiple times. But it took a lot of trial and error to figure out that that’s how it works with these bigger companies and some of the older management in place.

Adrian: Awesome. Thank you. I think that’s as if you’re going to take value away from this. It’s if you’re working with big clients, you know it’s that stair stepping of the relationship. And the size of the things that you want to change. For sure.

Kurt: You know, Adrian, it’s, it’s a dichotomy relationship with your own self. Because you know what you want to do and then there’s a point in the conversation where some guy in the room is going to go, well I’m confused. You’re only talking about this. I thought you were a big idea guy. And that’s where you have to go, oh well I’ve got plenty of ideas for a five year plan or an eleven year plan. But I know that you only have the appetite for this at this time. And so you can never let them think you’re an idiot that you don’t know about this. But you have to let them know that I’m only concentrating on this cause I know that this is what you have the appetite for it this time. And you’ve marked the budget for this much now. And then we’ll look at growing at a rate that’s comfortable for you. And then through your own creativity and relationship building, you’re able to speed that process up. For example, my five-year plan at Suzuki, I just check the last one off and I’ve been there three years. But it was, it’s a five year plan and I was able to accelerate the plan as I learned the trust in the relationship.

Adrian: Brilliant. Super valuable Jonathan.

Jonathon: Yeah. As we were discussing pre show discussions Kurt. I think you described when you were building this out with Lifter LMS and Suzuki. It was literally a stung project. It was the agreement of a couple of reasonably senior managers. But it wasn’t told to the whole crew as they continue actually. So was there a general resistance to the idea of using open source software in general?

Kurt: Now my face is probably turning red here, but I’m from a corporate standpoint. They are still very much in a, everything is self-served, self-hosted, a giant air conditioned room in the back of the building. They’re still very much in that. And we are seeing slowly our company beginning to adopt some more of the more conventional ideas about, you know, web services, web hosting, web backups, things like that. Using the cloud. So there are a couple of vice presidents of the company that use iPad and use Dropbox accounts and things like that. So they were kind of familiar with when I said cloud hosting something. And so one of the vice presidents used some expletives because he’s a colorful person. And he said we need to bypass the normal process if we’re going to launch this project you’ve just proposed.

He really wanted me to build a project that would allow us to train new dealerships coming into our network. Without having to send someone physically to the building. Because we’re adding so many dealers that you can’t send human beings out fast enough to teach people things. And so we built this product to kind of onboard the dealers virtually. And he said, I really want you to do this. We don’t have time to wait for the corporate processes to roll out and get approvals. So let’s go through one of our vendors, have them get the hosting, have them put everything, you know, where you need to get the software, you need the look, you know, the infinity package through Lifter LMS, the whole thing. They put it on their card and then build us on a vendor PO to cover the costs.

And that gave me everything I needed to build the product. Once the product was built and the renewals came up a year later, well then it was, hey, we’ve already got this product, it’s already up. People can already access it. It works. By the way, I need another six hundred bucks for another year of hosting. And they were like, all right, we don’t know how this happened, but you know, here’s your check. And now it’s an established part. You know, it`s part of our processes moving forward to bring dealers on board.

Jonathon: That’s great. Over to you Adrian.

Adrian: I like the guerrilla operation you had going on there. That’s anything that’s really fun.

Kurt: I don’t know if you guys do project management software, like pay Mo. I use pay MO application. I did the very similar thing at the company. I actually paid for it for the first year. And then after a year I gave my executive management an hourly report of this is exactly what everybody did for the last year and how you spent your salary dollars. I said, but I’m not gonna pay for this anymore. And all of a sudden they were willing to write the check.

Adrian: He didn’t even ask for forgiveness. Not for permission, just do.

Jonathon: It reminds me of a similar conversation about the people that started Slack. They from day one decided that the time it would take to get large companies to take on slack, the investment would just be too large. So they aimed their product, at a certain level organization and then they built credibility in those initial users. And then they hoped that it would become more and more people in the organization would be using it without the top management. It was a fascinating discussion. So we’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show folks. Hopefully Kurt can stay on for some bonus content. We’re going to be discussing basically some of the challenges in building a online course compared to actually physically go in and giving training. Some of the things that Kurt has learned during this process. Now Kurt how can people find out more about you and what you’re up to?

Kurt: Imanna No Mas is just the absolute best way to find me anywhere on the Internet. And I know I’m the whitest guy in the world with a Latin name, but Imanna No Mas is it, the sign is behind me over my head. And Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, the website Imannanomas.com. And in the back end of that is a Lifter LMS powered, academy that people can go into. There’s even a free course of people that are interested in trying the courses to see what the end user sees without having to invest time. You can try one there and I did it. I just totally love all the stuff that we do there.

Jonathon: That’s great. And Adrian, how can people find out more about you and your company and what you’re up to?

Adrian: Well, you can go to Groundhogg with two g`s at the end dot io to find out more about our sales and marketing automation tools that we provide for WordPress for absolutely free. So if you’re looking to send emails, collect subscribers, build a list, build a tribe on WordPress, then you can go to groundhogg.io for all of that information and download our free tools.

Jonathon: And I just want to point out Adrian and his team we’re trying to do. Is some of the most difficult, you know, it is impressive what Adrian is attempting to do. It’s not easy. I end up being impressed with the level of support and what they’re trying to do at Groundhogg. If you want to support the show give us a review on iTunes. It really does help the show. And if you want to see the episodes, the earliest, always go to the WP tonic YouTube channel. Cause we publish the shows there the earliest. So if you can’t get enough of WP Tonic, go to the WP Tonic YouTube channels. Subscribe and you’d be told when the show is up. We’ll see you in next week where we have another great expert. We’ve got a number of great people in August and September. I’m sure you’re gonna find value if you stay with us on this journey. We see you soon. Bye.

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