How to Effectively Bridge The Gap Between Developers & UX Designers
Debbie Levitt, MBA is the CXO of Delta CX, has been a CX and UX strategist, designer, and trainer since the 1990s. She’s a change agent focused on helping companies of all sizes transform towards customer-centricity while using principles of Agile and Lean.
Clients have given her the nickname, “Mary Poppins,” because she flies in, improves everything she can, sings a few songs, and flies away to her next adventure.
Her “Delta CX” book and “Transforming Toward Customer-Centricity” training teach companies how to improve customer satisfaction, predict and mitigate business risk, and increase ROI by investing in great customer experiences. She has other training programs that teach non-CX roles about CX, why it’s done by specialists, and how to integrate it into teams and processes.
Outside of CX work, and sometimes during CX work, Debbie enjoys singing symphonic prog goth metal, opera, and New Wave. You can also catch her on the Delta CX YouTube channel.
Here’s The Full Transcription of Our Great Interview With Debbie
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back folks of the WP tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS its episode 669. We’ve got a fantastic guest. We got Debbie with us, Debbie Levitt, and I’m going to let Debbie introduce her. She’s the founder and CEO of Delta as CX. We’re going to be talking about all things UX. I’m pumped up for the discussion. Debbie is a bit the character she’s up for it. So, Debbie, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the tribe?
Debbie Levitt: Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show. Good to see you, Jonathan and Spencer, I’m Debbie Levitt who I’m from, Delta CX. And you can find firstname.lastname@example.org. Basically, we are a full-service CX and UX consultancy, helping people with UX and CX projects, helping customers and companies shift towards more customer-centricity, helping people find ways to save time and money, and, improve their business intelligence and risk mitigation through fantastic customer experiences. So I’ve got over 20 years in strategy research and, design though my background is not art. I come from the psychology side, so I’m happy to answer any questions anybody has about UX, including what the heck is that?
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And, my normal co-host Steven is still sunning himself in Mexico, the swine but a regular panelist on my Friday round table show has agreed to join me, even though he’s feeling a little bit poorly at Spencer Foreman. Spencer, would you like to introduce yourself to the tribe?
Spencer Foreman: I want to first say I love Debbie as a guest because she and I share so many commonalities. I have a psych background. My whole business revolves around customer experience, but I’m Spence from WPlaunchify.com. Many of you know, me already who listen to the show, but I definitely, when we get started, want to ask Debbie to define some things, because I think a lot of people don’t understand what is CX or UX. I mean, there’s a lot of good acronyms there, but–
Jonathan Denwood: Yes they love in that field they love the acronyms that’s for sure. But before we go into the main part of the interview, we’ve got a message from one of our major sponsors to be back in a few moments folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I just want to point out that Castos is offering a fantastic special offer for the tribe. Plus if you go to the specific page, there are some other great offers. And also if you’re looking for the best recommendations for a specific plugin or WordPress service, you’ll find them on this page. How do you get to that page? That is the question. Well, you go to WP-Tonic/recommendations, and it’s all there for your tribe. So let’s go into the meat and potatoes of this interview. So, Debbie, you, I think you are well known in the UX community as somebody that’s no getting the best feelings towards design thinking. So let’s start with that. First of all, can you tell us, what you think design thinking is when it comes to UX and maybe one or yes, Spencer, what would you–
Spencer Foreman: And could we please, for the benefit of the listeners define CX and UX?
Debbie Levitt: let’s start there
Jonathan Denwood: We might be, we might be here. I’ll leave you.
Debbie Levitt: No I’m used to short versions.
Spencer Foreman: I don’t think it’s well known.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I will leave it to Debbie’s discretion. But if Debbie wants to cover all that, we’d probably be here for the whole half hour but I leave that to her. So if you want to do that, Debbie plus, tell us what you don’t like about this specific genre of the industry over to you, Debbie.
Debbie Levitt: Yeah, sure. So CX and UX are really simple. I don’t need all day CX is customer experience. UX is user experience. I see them as the same thing. Some companies do split them up. They think their CX team is the people who run surveys and they’re from the marketing department. And let’s try to figure out if people are happy. But I think by the time you’re doing that, it’s too late. You’ve already released something to the public that might suck. People are leaving you bad ratings. They’re tweeting grumpy crap about you. I feel like that’s a little bit reactive. So let’s talk about UX, the user experience. And again, to me, I don’t differentiate between the two. And the idea for user experience is that it’s more psychology than the art of making websites, apps, digital interfaces, and even services, user friendly, easy to learn, easy to use logical intuitive, Hey, this just works. Hey, this is what I needed. You want people to feel that, let’s just call it that in short.
Spencer Foreman: Right, So in other words, like in layman’s terms, the bottom line is the user’s journey is really the thing that is being focused upon. And the differences between the CX and UX aren’t really as important because quite frankly, almost every web experience today involves customers or users. It’s the same thing. Nobody is just building pretty sites to read the blogs on anymore.
Debbie Levitt: (Nobody wants your brochureware. Everybody comes to your site with a task to accomplish whether that task is consuming content or, perusing things, deciding to buy and then actually buying. And we, we need to make sure everything is built for all of those tasks to make them easy and obvious. So hopefully that definition flies, for my panel here today. And let’s talk about design thinking because design thinking is hot and often talked about, but the amazing thing is that no two people seem to have the same definition of it. So I am against design thinking because what is it? we did an episode on me, show episode 108 on Delta CX YouTube channel called what isn’t design thinking. And we read a number of definitions of design thinking, and they were all just, I don’t know, just kind of buzzword bingo, I would say. So let me tell you the origins of design thinking.
Jonathan Denwood: Could, could you say that again? That’s a lovely–
Spencer Foreman: Buzzword, bingo
Jonathan Denwood: design.
Debbie Levitt: Yeah if you’ve got a bingo card with typical buzzwords on it. You can win the bingo game because Ooh, hold on. Someone said empathy. Let me mark off empathy.
Spencer Foreman: Oh I like she’s got, I like how you have the magic [Inaudible07:47] too. That’s amazing.
Debbie Levitt: Thank you.
Jonathan Denwood: She loves her special effects.
Debbie Levitt: Well, I decided to put into my live shows, some of the production value people put into prerecorded shows. So I figured why not bring them to life? So I just did an article, which you can find on a medium called was design thinking, designed to not work. And I think when you take a look at the origins of design thinking, the story is pretty clear. There was a famous design firm called Ideo I D E O, which many people have heard of. And in the early 2000s, after one of the dot com crashes, they found that their business super dropped. Do you remember the early 2000s y’all? The three of us were there.
Spencer Foreman: I was there
Debbie Levitt: And they found I had to redefine myself, I don’t know about you. And they found that their business had super dropped and they decided, instead of selling projects, why don’t we sell a methodology? Why don’t we be the masters or owners of a methodology? And that will really rake in the bucks. And so they took a term that already existed, which was design thinking and they changed it so that it was this super watered down Fisher-price version of what they were doing, which was really user center design, which is what UX people call their process. And so basically by having like you UX the home game, it’s like buying the game operation and saying, surely now I’m a surgeon. And so they made this kind of water down version were things that take me weeks or a couple of months to do really well with, as I like to say, science and technique and strategy, they were saying you can do in just a few days by getting into a room with sticky notes.
The amazing thing is that– in my article, I even found that idea was out there saying, we know this doesn’t work. We know it’s theater at most companies, and yet they haven’t tried to fix it. So, I have a hypothesis that design thinking was designed for you to feel addicted to this thing that tells you, you can do what Debbie does. You can do what Debbie does, just do these five easy steps and get in a room and play some games and you can do what Debbie does. And the reality is that no offense, but it’s hard to do what I do well. anybody can do what I do, but not everybody’s going to do it well, UX is complicated and difficult, and it’s like the old Saturday night Liveline, tunes are the cat can draw, but not very well,
Spencer Foreman: Is this like 5 love languages. That book that comes out if literally, you want to–
Debbie Levitt: Oversimplification,
Spencer Foreman: You need to use words of affirmation or you need to, touch or whatever the five are because it sounds like what you’re saying is there’s a professional level of understanding that’s required an experience to really do this effectively, but somehow this idea is sold the public or the corporate public on the idea that just pick one of these five boxes and have somebody read off what’s on the card and everything will be groovy.
Debbie Levitt: I think it’s pretty much that I think you’re enough or off because again, I mean, who wouldn’t want to be like Ideo? It’s like saying you can be a Disney Imagineer, it’s incredibly dreamy. It’s incredibly seductive who wouldn’t want to buy that book or take that course or get that certificate. So I understand the attraction to it, but I think that it is selling a fantasy. It’s selling the fantasy. It’s like saying, you can be a dentist by reading this book, you can. And when you think about Ideo themselves, they aren’t hiring design thinkers necessarily they were hiring, psychologists, industrial designers, human factors, engineers. They weren’t, hiring John and Spencer who took a two-day course in design thinking. But they were selling it. Like, if you take this course, you can do what we do.
My point in my article was what innovative company, like Ideo, would invent something that puts them out of business. They would have to leave something out so that you would always need them. It’s like how my grandmother never told you there was coffee in her chocolate cake, and that’s why it tasted so good.
Spencer Foreman: Right. So are you suggesting that the sorry, John, this fits into the framework of large scale companies or prizes probably who are hiring maybe from, within for doing these let’s just call it like, the design thinking process-
Debbie Levitt: Workshops.
Spencer Foreman: Workshops versus what could have would’ve in your opinion should be the case, which is that they really need to enlist the aid of a specialist, somebody with your level experience, who has an understanding of, the deeper processes and the deeper ways of this work. And a question that comes to mind in that regard is can you contrast this conversation to like what people in the WordPress space if that’s something you’re familiar with doing? So we’ve got all these whizzy wig tools in the block builder, but in the corporate space, they’re not really using WordPress the same way. Maybe it’s one of 10,000 things they’re using. So how do these, problems issues or concerns apply in maybe the design space of WordPress as well?
Debbie Levitt: Yeah, I think that because design thinking is hot, everybody’s claiming to do it. So it could even be WordPress developers and WordPress web designers out there who are now saying I’m a design thinker. And I say whatever, but I think when you think about WordPress and I certainly know a couple of things about WordPress, I’ve been using it for many years and my boyfriend is, not only, running his own WordPress design company, but he’s heavily involved with WordPress on the polyglots team. He translates WordPress elements into Italian, which means he also gets, sneak previews of things. And so if you ever see @Pierre Mario ever in the automatic slack, that is my boyfriend, and love him. Hi honey. And so, I’m on a word podcast tonight, honey. Can’t hear you have my monitors in. so what was that? That was hydrogen peroxide. What is that?
Spencer Foreman: I was talking to my friend here. Who’s, shows up in it’s my–
Debbie Levitt: Yes, exactly. I can say he is physically located there. I can have him jump into the frame if you want to see a human. But, basically, I would say for the WordPress people out there, it’s kind of like we’ve all worked with that person who writes a WordPress blog post and then goes, I’m a WordPress developer–
Jonathan Denwood: I’ve got one here, but there we’re. So, right.
Debbie Levitt: What just happened?
Jonathan Denwood: I just interrupted, that’s what.
Debbie Levitt: Just checking.
Jonathan Denwood: So, just to finish off the first half of the interview, Debbie, could you also explain maybe what you see as the difference between somebody that designs interfaces and what we’ve been talking about so far in this interview? Because I think there is a difference, but you do get people that can combine both or, but there’s a lot of, I think confusion over that. Can you attempt to try and clarify?
Debbie Levitt: Yeah, I’ll answer what I think your question is. And, that is what is the difference between someone who is a web designer and maybe a UX designer? Because I think a lot of web designers think they’re UX designers and as a UX specialist, I often look at their work and go kind of know,
Jonathan Denwood: Well they want to be because-
Debbie Levitt: Sure, well also UX is hot, sometimes UX gets paid more sure. And so
Spencer Foreman: Is UX front end also, can you clarify that? Is front-end versus backend part of what the UX specialty is like whereas a web designer is obviously front end?
Debbie Levitt: So UX is typically not coding anything. So hypothetically we might be part of backend decisions because part of UXs information architecture, which has to do with taxonomies, hierarchies, and structures. So sometimes we are collaborating with a backend, database person.
Spencer Foreman: For the employees of the company who have to deal with content management. So for example, does the UX person ever have a say, so in what that might look like, like a custom post editor or WordPress and stuff.
Debbie Levitt: Yeah. So it depends on what that is. There are a lot of different moving pieces here and I think we’ve now asked six questions, so I’m trying to keep track of them all. But we also have the content strategist who often, writes the content or handles the content, the UX person. So let me answer my first question, which was, what’s the difference between a web designer and a UX designer. And to me, it’s not just the title or the payor the prestige or whatever, but to me, the letter U in UX is for your users. And what I find is the main difference is when a project comes through, let’s say you’re doing WordPress web sites and you’ve got a client and the client says, I want you to make me a better landing page and you go, sure, I’m good at this. Here’s your better landing page. I would see that as web design.
If a client comes to you and says, I wish we understood our customers better so that we could make web pages that make better sense to them naturally. And then if you’re a UX practitioner if you’re a researcher, you could say, great, I’m going to spin up some research with 20 or 30 of your users or customers or visitors or target audience who’ve never seen your website. And I’m going to tell you more about people. I’m going to tell you more about their decision, making their tasks, their processes, their preferences, and their priorities so that we can build the best website for them. And then before it goes live, I’m going to do usability testing to make sure that we really have built the right thing for people. It’s kind of the QA of UX.
And so that’s what a UX process looks like in super short and how it’s different from web design because, many, UX designers do start out as web designers, but you would have to be studying more of that psychology and more of how you research or interact with users to really learn from them. Because when we go into interviews, we don’t say, hey, what do you want? We don’t do that. We have all kinds of psychology-based techniques where it’s really the science of the thing and it’s not, Hey, what do you want? Or, hey, if I built a thing that had a thing, would you want it? These are all very bad questions but are commonly asked by people who really don’t know what else to do.
To me, there’s an overlap for sure. And if people want to be proper UX designers, I would say, you’re going to need to learn more about cognitive psychology and human behavior, perhaps behavioral economics. And you’ll also want to learn some of our proper techniques and approaches and best practices because if you’re just saying, hey client, I’ll just give you whatever you want. We don’t see that as, UX. because where was the U the user? Where’s the user in that?
Jonathan Denwood: Yes. Right. Thank you so much for that, Debbie. And I apologize for all the questions, but you dealt with it very well, Debbie. So we’re going to go for our break and we’ll be back a few moments folks.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back from our mid-break Debbie is in great form, handling Spencer and myself with her plum.[Interposed talking21:06]
Spencer Foreman: I love her answers because I do, feel like you not only handled that with plum but you really did clarify something and it causes me to want to ask you a follow-up.
Jonathan Denwood: Can I finish off before [interposed talking21:20 But before Spencer answers his question, I would like to point out that if you want to sign up for the WP tonic newsletter, which, I send out every Monday, which has an editorial written by myself, you can do that. Plus it’s got some fantastic stories normally about what we’ve discussed on the Friday show, you can get this fantastic weekly newsletter by going to WP-Tonic/newsletter and signing up for that. I suggest that you should do that. So back over to you, Spencer I can see, you are just gunning to give a question to Debbie so over to you.
Spencer Foreman: We’re like Felix and Oscar, the odd couple here. We’ve only known each other for like 10 years.
Jonathan Denwood: It feels much longer. It feels much longer than that.
Spencer Foreman: We’re still living in the same apartment. Okay. So here’s what I’ve heard you say. And I think this is useful because we speak all the time to freelance designers. That’s again, where you and I share our specialty in the WordPress space in particular. Sounds like what you’re saying is UX may not actually have as its primary focus and shouldn’t have the design part like a web designer does, but rather it’s the human psychology. It’s the process, it’s interacting with people. And perhaps that process may focus primarily on nothing to do with the color schemes and the placement of fonts insofar as they have no effect on the user’s use of the website.
If not then help clarify, because let’s say somebody, and here’s why I’m asking the question. If somebody was interested in this space is becoming a UX specialist, I understand there’s a place to go. And obviously, your websites to talk to you about it, but like understanding the difference between a veterinarian and an optician or something. It’s like two different jobs, but they clearly are living in the same building. So let’s refine that a little further. What would a UX specialist be doing on a practical level?
Debbie Levitt: Absolutely happy to answer that. And for those watching the screen, I’ve got a little, graphic up to help explain it. So actually UX isn’t just one thing. There are multiple subspecialties across UX and depending upon what you feel, you are good at, you can just start with one of them. You definitely don’t have to learn all of these. It’s uncommon to be good at all of these. So feel free to super specialize if you want to get into UX. So we start with research and we start with what’s called generative research. This is where we generate information about people, contexts, and systems. So again, I’m just going to give you short versions of things, but if you’re curious, you can always ask me more on Tuesdays on my YouTube show at 6:30 PM, Italy time is asking me anything. So, we can continue that there.
We start with research and that means specialty researchers. Now, after that, typically we are looking at content and that’s where you have your content strategists or your copywriters. I know that the WordPress people interface with some of, those people a lot, sometimes they’re from marketing and they’re writing the blog posts or the other website, copy. So that is a UX specialty. You will even see jobs. If you go to LinkedIn or other sites for UX writers, it’s a thing. And what makes a UX writer different from those of you writers out there is that our specialty is to say it as short as possible. So it’s not really a long-form style. It is a short form style, especially for what should the button say. So people get it and do it. Rather than a, long-form per se.
Spencer Foreman: Copywriter for the elements on the page.
Debbie Levitt: We do, we have a copywriter. Yeah. We have people who agonize over what a button should say. And sometimes we will A B test that for weeks. Then we’ve got information architecture, which is something you can study. I do recommend the O’Reilly book with the polar bear on the cover; Information Architecture for the Worldwide Web. The latest edition, I think came out in 2017 or 18, O’Reilly’s book with a polar bear, on it. It’s long, but it’s good. And everyone should know information architecture. Even you web designers and WordPress peeps, you can absolutely put this to good use and you will start making better websites for it, I promise, even if you don’t get into UX.
Then we’ve got what we call interaction design. This is when we’re making wireframes and prototypes. Now some people jump right into WordPress and they start making the pages.
Some people mock them up, sketch them up. Something like that we call that interaction design because you are designing interactivity. You’re not necessarily doing the visual design or the branding like you said, the color or the typography. So when you think of a UX designer, they’re typically doing information architecture and interaction design. Then we have testing because you want to test it. Sorry. I don’t know where I’m on my own screen here.
Testing. That’s done by a specialized researcher. Sometimes the designer is good at it. Usually, the researcher is better at it. And then we’ve got visual design. And so visual design is sometimes called UI design. Maybe some people think of it as a brand. That’s going to be where you have your logo, your colors, your typography, the spacing of elements. It could be a style guide, a component library, a design system, a UI kit. It could be any of those things that we are going to be integrating so that you have that, recurring. That’s more of the look and feel layer. Whereas, interaction design can actually be done without that. That’s where you hear boxes and arrows where we’re drawing kind of a blueprint version of the website with placeholders before we finalize it.
So for those of you web designers, curious about UX, you could be looking at research, you could be looking at content strategy and writing. You could be looking at information architecture and interaction design, or if you’re artsier, you could be looking at visual design.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. Debbie. Before this interview I watched, quite a few of your, recent interviews over the past year. And I sense that the industry feels that it’s a little bit in crisis. First of all, would you agree with that statement? And if you do agree with that statement, what do you think are the things that have led to that overall feeling in the industry?
Debbie Levitt: Yeah, I think UX is in a bit of trouble because what happens is we’re typically hired into companies who don’t understand what we do. I mean, even today, in this interview, it’s true that a lot of people don’t understand what we do. I’m here explaining it. It’s not like I said, I’m a lawyer. And you said I know what that is. When we talk about UX, everybody’s like, I don’t know what that is. And we’re very often hired into companies and corporate environments and people don’t understand what we do. And they think we’re web designers. They think it’s just, hi, you’re here. Can you move this button over here? And we are problem finders and problem solvers and critical thinkers and mini lawyers. And so we don’t want to just move that button there because we want there to be a good reason for that. We want that to solve a real problem.
So what happens is a lot of companies don’t utilize us correctly and instead of letting us be problem finders and problem solvers and save the company a lot of risk and waste they just tell us what to do. Like, you’ve all had those WordPress gigs where somebody did not want to listen to your advice and they just told you what to do. And you had to decide how much do I fight this or do I just take the money? And unfortunately, we see a lot of this in, in our jobs as well, despite some of our specialties and even people with master’s degrees and PhDs, in the of stuff.
Spencer Foreman: Do you feel that from what you just described, do you feel that there would be a possibility that a UX person would obviate or remove the need for a web designer in some situations because when you described those six different steps or specialties, I was asking myself now, where would a web designer fit into this after you’ve already got a UX person?
Debbie Levitt: Yeah. So it’s interesting. The company where I’m consulting right now actually has some separate people doing UX design and WordPress stuff. And actually, the WordPress person is a little bit more connected to the marketing department. They’re updating the public-facing website, they’re updating blogs and, that sort of long-form content. And then the UX designers will go in. So for example, the company where I’m consulting right now is a job board. So they’re kind of a competitor to Indeed. If you think about, posting jobs, looking for jobs and that’s the company where I’m, consulting right now. In fact, Jonathan is I believe from England it’s, total jobs and in Germany, it’s StepStone. So that’s where I’m consulting right now.
The web designers are handling that kind of marketing content need and, and website need. And then the UX designers design the job board system. So the web designers aren’t necessarily the right people to go in and say, here’s how we design the best way for a candidate to apply for a job. Because now you have to get into that psychology of the process that a candidate would like. I mean, think about yourself if you’ve ever applied for a job, it sucked right. And it was awful and it was too long and you wanted to throw your computer out the window. The UX researcher needs to look into what’s going on with that. As I like to say, are people, contexts, and systems. And then the designers would take the knowledge from the of researchers and they would be able to, say, okay, this is the best way for someone to apply to search for a job, find a job, apply for the job. And it’s real. That’s where a lot of that psychology comes in. So I think there are places in companies for both people. So web designers can be web designers, even if they don’t want to get into UX and there will always be a need for WordPress specialists and web designers. I mean, that’s what my boyfriend’s been doing for decades, and he can make a full-time living at it.
Spencer Foreman: Maybe you’re saying there like an implementer. So in other words, the UX person is sort of mapping out all the important details to hand off to an implementer. Who’s a WordPress specialist? And then they–
Debbie Levitt: Actually, in the case of most corporate environments, the UX designer is not handing off to a WordPress person. The UX designer is handing off to an engineering team who builds the functionality because typically something like a job board website or LinkedIn or whatever, doesn’t have WordPress as its platform. The WordPress platform exists for the public-facing website and the blog and the careers page and the come work for us and about us and all of those things. But once we get into the actual product, that’s usually not built on a WordPress platform. That’s usually custom-coded by the company. and that, so usually the UX people are not necessarily dealing with the WordPress people, the UX people are talking directly to agile and scrum teams who are then doing the back end and front end coding and APIs and services and things like that.
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. We going to be wrapping up the podcast part of the show, hopefully, Debbie will stay on with us for another 10, 15 minutes for our bonus content. You can watch the whole interview plus the bonus content on the WP tonic YouTube channel, please go over there and watch the whole interview. Plus the bonus content, Debbie’s got a fantastic YouTube channel. She’s very, generous with her time. And if you are interested in what we’ve discussed, I would say definitely go over to Debbie’s YouTube channel. That will be in the show notes on the WP-Tonic website. So Debbie, what is the best way for people to contact you and learn more about you? I would imagine you’re going to say the YouTube channel,
Debbie Levitt: All the things, Deltacx.com, which of course is a WordPress website, though it’s, in sad need of updating.
Jonathan Denwood: [Inaudible33:41]
Well, he’s great. And, and he’s awesome and I highly recommend him, but I have to write the content. So I am his blocker as they say. But yeah, Deltacx.com though in need of updated content, you can find me on LinkedIn as, Debbie Levitt, D E B B I E and L E V, like Victor I T T. And of course, my YouTube channel is called Delta CX and I’m usually live three or four times a week, with various shows on Monday I teach design on Tuesday I take questions on Wednesday I usually do interviews or discussions and on Friday we make fun of wacky crap.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And Spencer, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and what you are up to Spence?
Spencer Foreman: WPlaunchify.com.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. In the bonus content, I’ve got my own, faults about why the UX is in crisis. Interesting fact listeners and viewers. I did my degree in UX design and I did my master’s in this subject. So I know a little bit about it. We will be back next week with another fabulous guest like Debbie, we’ll see you soon. Folks. Bye.
Debbie Levitt: Thanks, bye.