On Episode 269 Jeff Cobb author of Leading the Learning Revolution (https://www.learningrevolution.net/) joined Jonathan Denwood and Kim Shivler to discuss the future of learning from online to the classroom.
Jeff has been an entrepreneur and advisor in the business of lifelong learning for over two decades, and brought many fresh ideas about online courses and education to the WP-Tonic Podcast.
Part of Jeff’s focus is on the need for motivation. He points out how important it is to motivate learners to take control of their learning and keep moving forward.
We also discuss learning In a new century and how to run a successful eLearning membership website With Jeff Cobb of Learning Revolution.net
Jeff has commercially published two books – Leading the Learning Revolution and Shift Ed – and self-published a third – 10 Ways to Be a Better Learner. he has blogged for more than a decade on multiple sites, including Mission to Learn, Tagoras, and Learning Revolution.
You can find more about Jeff here:
This Episode is Sponsored By Kinsta
Here’s a Full Transcription Of Our Interview With Jeff
Jonathan: Welcome back folks to the WP-Tonic Wednesday show. We’ve got a fantastic guest and I’ve got my great co-host Kim as well and it’s episode 269. We’re into February folks. Where is the year going? I don’t know. I’m going to let my guest introduce himself first, Jeff Cobb. Would you like to just give a quick outline on what you’re about Jeff? And that would be great.
Jeff: Sure. Well, thanks for having me, Jonathan and Kim. I’m Jeff Cobb and I’ve been working in the market for adult lifelong learning, continuing education and professional development for more than two decades at this point and so I’ve seen a huge amount change in that time period. And particularly in recent years, I feel like there’s just been a real learning revolution and I’ve written a book by that name and I think it’s opened up a huge number of opportunities for organizations that serve that market but even more so recently we’re seeing just the tremendous growth of entrepreneurial activity in the market.
So solo entrepreneurs, small businesses that are jumping in using a variety of different platforms to deliver learning to reach their audiences and really to add a whole new element to this market that I’ve been serving for so long. I’m all about that market and the people who serve it basically.
Jonathan: Oh, that’s great. And Kim, would you quickly like to introduce yourself?
Kim: Absolutely. Along with being the co-host of this great show, I am Kim Shivler. I’m a Communication Strategist and Instructional Design Consultant. I’m looking forward to our conversation today.
Jonathan: Yeah. I’m the same. I’m the founder of WP-Tonic. We’re a WordPress maintenance support service and company, with a specialty on Learning Management Systems and Membership sites using WordPress. And before we go into the interview, I just want to quickly mention our sponsor of this episode and that’s Kinsta Hosting. WP-Tonic uses Kinsta to host our own site. It’s a fantastic hosting company that only hosts WordPress and if you go the WP-Tonic to see the full show notes and full interview with Jeff, there will be links to Kinsta and they are affiliate links and you will be helping the show if you decide to utilize their services, either yourself or for your clients.
But like I say, they’re a great hosting company. We host the WP-Tonic site with them and they have just been fantastic. So, let’s go straight into the interview Jeff. So, I’ve watched a few of your interviews Jeff and to say that you’re the right man at the right time would be an understatement. It just seems to be an explosion in online courses and training. I was thinking what my first question would be with you. So, obviously like web design, web design was a new methodology of communication but it got a lot of its origins from the past, from print, it’s kind of language from print and from poster design in some ways. So I think online education gets some of its vocabulary and framework from the past but it’s also a very new methodology, isn’t it? First, would you agree with that? And secondly, how do you see it kind of breaking away from its past in a way, from what happened in the past to become a new way of education?
Jeff: Yeah. Great question. I think you’re absolutely right that online is definitely borrowing a lot from the past. And the funny thing that’s happening at the same time is a lot of the past approaches to education are coming under and getting a lot of criticism. So, you know, the first move that you’ll see most people make whether they’re organizations, entrepreneurs, whatever, when they jump into online learning is often going to be to do a webinar or a series of webinars. Then they use them for marketing and they try to sell them, whatever the case might be. But they’re going to go online with this tool that will allow them to present powerpoint to the world, which of course, has been happening in lectures for decades and decades. And before that, it was a chalkboard. But it’s basically somebody standing there talking at you, putting something up on a board and hoping you’re going to learn something in the process. To be honest, that’s always been flawed in the classroom.
I mean, there’s a place for it. It does serve its purpose at times but to totally depend on that, is a horrible way to go about educating people or helping people learn. Unfortunately, that tends to get transferred into the online world. So you have these powerpoint presentations. Sometimes you get some video thrown in with an expert talking at you and very little real learning going on. So that’s happened. And then, also, is people to self-paced courses. It’s really just been taking that and making it self-paced. So, you’ve still got the lecturer delivering at you through some sort of video and that sort of thing. Fortunately, that’s changing some in the actual classroom. Educational institutions, other types of training providers are catching on to the fact that you really need to facilitate learning. You need to help people engage with it, help them find their own motivation, connect with it, use good learning practices. The science has just improved tremendously over the course of the last decade.
We just know so much more about how people learn. And so, to go to how that’s now impacting online learning, we’re seeing, A, learners take control, because learners can go out and know the catalog now for online courses really is Google.
People are searching and they may get a course. They may get a brief video. They may get a document. They’re going to put together what they need to, to learn. And I think the edupreneurs and the traditional organizations that get that are starting to reshape their learning and realize the possibilities that the Web is offering. And so, they’re figuring out, “How can we curate that? How can we help that process?”, and then, “How can we help that interaction and engagement?”. I won’t go too deeply into it right now. But for example, right now, we’re running an online conference and we are doing some of the traditional delivery of expert content but we’ve got a community going with it.
We’ve extended it over a few weeks so that people to interact, ask questions, engage with each other. We’re providing some prompts along the way. Just some things to help them find the learning that they actually need and be able to bring it back and connect with others and that’s really hard to do in a traditional education setting. You can go off to college for 4 years and maybe have that. But your average adult is in no position to do that. But the Web and online make that possible if you actually start to leverage those tools that we’ve been given and we’re starting to see more and more of that.
Jonathan: Thanks for that. Before I bring Kim in with her questions is, do we actually have any idea how people do learn things?
Jeff: Oh, all sorts of ideas. I mean, it depends what perspective you’re coming from. But as far as what it actually takes for people to be able to learn things, we know, for example, I taught Russian many many years ago and there was a Russian saying (speaking Russian), which is, “Repetition is the mother of learning”. And unfortunately, we’ve done repetition very badly in the past because it’s been rote repetition and memorization.
But repetition is important. And we’re finding, for example, that when people can space learning over time and practice things repeatedly over time and practice is a key word there, not just read them again and again but actually apply them in their situation. That’s one of the key areas. To take learning and do what’s called and connect it back to what you already know. Just scraping the tip of the iceberg there. There’s just really good science on how people learn now and it translates well into what should we be doing as people who are educators or facilitating learning with the experiences that we’re putting together.
Jonathan: Oh, that’s great. Kim, have you got any questions? You’re muted Kim.
Kim: I know I’m muted. I had to. Oh, you know I have questions. This is my too.
Jeff: We’re right in your, yeah.
Kim: Yeah. Yeah. I always want to move Jonathan out of the way and just geek out with the other educators for hours. One of the things you were mentioning was the bad practice of just taking that powerpoint delivery and moving it online. Part of that, I always have felt, wasn’t just that it was an old education practice. In a lot of ways, it was the corporate education practice by people who had no concept of the science of learning.
Kim: And then it got transferred into online because for one, I think the first people who grasped online learning, once the Internet was popular, were the Internet marketers.
Jeff: Very true. Very true.
Kim: Who are you seeing now? Because I’ve been getting excited about some things I’m seeing. Who are you seeing now that’s really coming to the forefront and bringing in some of these better practices for, “Hey guys. We really need to make this truly educationally sound because we’ve fortunately now gotten to the point where it’s so crowded out there that some of the cred of your stuff is going to fall to the wayside”. Who should we be looking to really to help us pull us up on that?
Jeff: Yeah. You know, I would say the best of the Internet marketers, you reference them, and I’ve followed them for quite a while now because I realize back when I was writing my book, I was focusing mostly on sort of traditional, continuing education, professional development organizations. And I started noticing all these marketers like Brian Clark at Copyblooger. He has this whole thing called Teaching Sales and it was all about how impactful teaching can be as a sales tool and they got heavily into doing online courses and online communities as a result of that and they do it quite well.
I mean, they have people there who do understand learning now and are trying to make it into a meaningful learning experience. So you see that type of thing going on out there with the best of the Internet marketers, the people who recognize this isn’t a one-shot deal, that you want to attract these people in and build a relationship with them and be a learning resource for them over time. And I think if there’s one key trend in adult learning, in particular right now, it’s moving beyond transactions and into relationships so that you come that go to resource for learning. And learning takes time. So you want to recognize that as part of what you’re doing. You know, certainly some of those types of companies, again, you know, Copyblogger does it. Brian who is an Internet marketer par excellence. He does quite a bit of it. He’s a little more lecture heavy than some of the others but he still has very compelling content that he offers. And then, we’ve had this conference going on that I mentioned, online conference. So we’ve had quite a few examples come in. These are going to be more in kind of the organization or trained professional association type world. But just the types of things that people are doing.
You know, microlearning has become a big buzz word these days, which means you have very short chunks of learning and people usually associate it with video. It doesn’t necessarily have to be video but it’s usually things that people can do in 5 or 10 minutes basically. And then. maybe move on to another thing to do in 5 or 10 minutes and get those short bites of learning aligned with their need, aligned with their attention span, give them the ability to repeat, give the ability to prepare themselves for a longer learning experience or to reinforce a longer learning experience. So we’re seeing organizations do that. The Ohio Society of CPAs to doing that. They’re actually CPE where you have to earn credit for learning. That’s a big thing in the Accounting profession. And you traditionally have to go to these day-long seminars and earn your hours and hours of CPE. They’ve got it down to where their state board is allowing them to offer 10-minute CPE. A 10-minute credit for CPE and accumulate those up to an hour. So pretty interesting approach there.
We had another organization. This fellow Mark from a group called present and they’re using a tool called BoosterLearn and that’s a specific technology but the technique they’re using is boosting learning basically. So it’s an email program where following an event, they send out a sequence of questions over about 8 weeks or so to give just some brief recall type of assessments for people to help them make sure that they’re recalling what they learned at the event and also giving them some things that they can apply in the setting. Anybody can do that. They’re an organization that happens to be doing that.
But average entrepreneur can do that sort of thing. So that kind of spaced learning, reinforcement of learning, making sure your learning is actually having an impact, which if you’re in the learning business, you want to do that because that’s what’s going to keep people coming back is when you’re able to do that. That’s an interesting one. We’ve seen quite a bit happening with virtual conferences. My company, Tagoras, is behind our virtual conference and we like to think we’re doing some good things there in terms of providing community and treating learning, not as a transaction and not as an event but as a process and a relationship and trying to actually shape what we’re calling a conference into being something quite different from your traditional conference.
Kim: Excellent. Yeah. I had microlearning on my list too but you just covered what I would have said. I loved that you pointed out the fact that we can now access things and I think a lot of that’s the technology, the microlearning piece of, we now have the search that I can get right to what I want and get just that and do this in chunks and do it over time. Because like you said, otherwise you go to college 4 years but even in a 4 year, you can’t just automatically pull up what you needed from your Freshman year or your Sophmore or Senior year.
Kim: One thing has concerned me and I’d really love your feedback because you’re one of the other people we’ve brought on who has a background in more of the traditional education also. And you pointed out that people are seeing the value of really giving the student what they need to learn so that they keep coming back. And one of the places I think that that’s going to flesh out, I’ve been teaching this and preaching this for the last several years but I’m seeing it with my customers now coming back to me and saying, “You were right”, is that we got into the phase of where you mentioned video. The challenge with that is if all you give people is a video, you’ve given them a YouTube channel, not a true class that they can go back and they can reference. They can do that quick reference we need on our steps without going back and forth in the video or like you would on a television channel. Now, I’m starting to see people come back to me and go, “Yeah. You really probably do need to go put those written steps in because people are complaining about it”.
Kim: From an ed perspective, I’d love to know your thoughts on those types of multiple touch points. And how we evaluate that we really are getting to our learners what we need?
Jeff: Yeah. I think it’s incredibly important. I hesitate to even mention this. I certainly won’t go too deep into it. But there’s been a hot debate. A kind of, what do they call it? A tempest in a teacup among instructional learning types around learning styles.
Jeff: And whether learning styles are really meaningful. And the conclusion is, when it comes to sort teaching and really leveraging learning styles in a meaningful way, the answer is kind of no. But we do know that using multimedia and giving people different ways to access content does result in better learning. And so, you can’t rely just on video. You can’t rely just on text. You can’t rely just on audio. It’s good to give people a mix. And I think particularly with video, you’re spot on. This isn’t even a formal learning example but I do happen to use a WordPress plugin provider who does all of their support with brief videos and it drives me nuts because I don’t need to watch the 5 minute. I just need to know that one thing, that if I were just looking a sheet of paper, I’d be able to find it very easily. But it’s a headache to deal with what they’re doing in terms of support. I mean, support, of course, is a kind of informal learning opportunity as well so they should be paying attention to learning principles. All of you technology supporters out there, recognize you’re teaching really. You’re supporting learning. So definitely have the multiple modalities here. Give it to people in a way that they’re going to be able to access it in the way that they need it when they need it.
Kim: Yes. Thank you for that. Yes. I pretty much tell people almost everything like that is a teaching opportunity. Support is a teaching opportunity. Sales is a teaching opportunity.
Kim: I know that there’s a difference in selling and actually teaching but it’s all about sharing a message and transforming or transferring that to someone, which is the basis of what teaching is.
Jeff: Yeah. I mean, in either case, you’re changing behavior. You’re out to change behavior and if you don’t know the tools that are going to help make that happen, which are the tools of learning, you’re going to strike out.
Kim: Absolutely. I need to hand it back to Jonathan because I know we’re coming up on our break.
Jonathan: Yeah. We’re going to have to go for our break. We’ve had a fascinating, already a fascinating conversation with Jeff Cobb and we’ll be coming back in a few moments and we’ll be discussing a lot of things. Back in a few moments folks.
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Jonathan: We’re coming back. We’ve had a great discussion already. I’m just going to throw in another question in Jeff. Seth Godin and when I read his book The Dip, obviously I would imagine you’re well aware of his book The Dip and the kind of process he says that all learners go through where they have a period and then they have this dip. Do you agree with the fundamental synopsis in the book and are there any things that can help when somebody goes into the dip area?
Jeff: You know, that’s actually one of Seth’s books that I have to say I’ve not actually read though I’m familiar with his thinking around it. So I’m not going to say that I’m offering a deep analysis of what he does there. But it is true that generally speaking any sort of meaningful learning that’s going to last is going to require effort. There’s just no way around it. Anything that requires effort, you’re going to have those times where it’s just not clicking and you have to try to push through on it.
Jonathan: Can I just interrupt slightly and not be rude? Have we got any idea of why things don’t click?
Jeff: Well, I mean, other than for fairly simple tasks, I mean, I can maybe learn to do something quickly on my computer and remember it and it’s not going to be a big deal. But for example, if I’m trying to learn to play guitar, which I’ve been doing my entire life and I certainly have ups and downs when it comes to that. For learning to stick, you’ve got to basically weave the connections in your mind that are going to put it into long-term memory. And part of that process is repetition and practice over time. Consolidation of what you’re learning into memory. That practice routine. You know, there’s a process called Effortful Retrieval there. You really have to make yourself bring it back out and use it again. And if you’re doing anything complex that has nuances and subtleties to it, if I’ve got to master, not only master all the scales on the guitar but then actually be able to translate them into meaningfully using them and creating a guitar solo of my own, I mean, that’s a tremendous thing to accomplish. And it’s just natural that you’re going to practice up to a point and you’re likely going to hit a wall and you need to walk away and let your brain do some of the work that’s going to help those connections to form. Come and back and keep working at. This is one of the reasons why motivation is just so incredibly important and I think it’s overlooked in a lot of discussions around learning or in how people are approaching learning. Because you’ve really got to help learners tap their motivation. I think that’s one of the best things that a teacher can do. If you can get the learner to tap their motivation, they’re going to be willing to put in the effort and to push through when they hit that dip.
Jonathan: Oh, thanks for that Jeff. Back to you Kim.
Kim: I love that, the motivation being important and keeping them motivated. I’d love to know if you any ideas about, particularly now that we’re going in with where we can work with people over the time, ideas for continuing motivation or maybe being able to tap in as they start reaching those tough spots to give them that motivation to get them over the next hurdle. Any ideas of how to incorporate that into particularly our online programs.
Jeff: Yes. I mean, I can speak about it broadly and I have to say this. This is an area that I’m really intensely thinking about right now myself because, particularly if you’re trying to get a community going, get people participating over time, you really have to figure out motivation. One of the main sources that I look research and inspiration is Edward Deci’s work. I’m not sure if it’s Deci or Deci. I’ve never known how to pronounce his name correctly. He’s done some of the pioneering work in motivation. He has a great book called Why We Do What We Do. It’s very readable. He talks about motivation as being tied to really three concepts. One is Autonomy. So just feeling like we have control. We are autonomous individuals, that we’re in a situation that we do have control over. Another is Competency. So just feeling like we can do this. We are. And the third one is Connectedness. So that we’re connected to others. It’s kind of the source of meaning in what we’re doing. We’re seeing that this has meaning and that it works. And so, I think when you’re talking about designing and delivering learning experiences, to think about how you can support those three factors of motivation. How do you help people feel like they’re in control? I referenced that support experience with the plugin provider. I don’t feel in control there. It’s actually demotivating to try to deal with support there because I can’t get at what I want. So that’s really important for motivation to give people a feeling of competency. And this is giving them some ways that they can show themselves that they are making progress, that they are getting it. And this goes back to your question Jonathan about the dip. If you can get those little signals that, “Yes. I have mastered a little bit here and I can keep going and master more”, just that level of competency is incredibly important. And then, finally, the connectedness, being able to connect learners together to share experiences, to hear what others are doing, to share what they’re doing, to teach others, to learn from others. To the extent that you can engineer all of those things into the learning experiences you’re providing, you’re going to substantially support motivation and really get people into what you’re providing.
Jonathan: I think my own observation when it comes to online courses, and I’d love your input on this and also Kim’s, is I think the two areas are repetition but also mentorship. And if you can combine those into your course at different price points, you know, have a starter course but also having a really good description, a good outline of what precisely is the course, who is the course aimed for. And then, offer some upscale, a pathway but also in the higher cost courses offer real mentorship, real group or individual mentorship sessions. What do you think about that Jeff?
Jeff: Absolutely. We’ve been focusing sort of more on the learning education side of the equation here. But my total focus is on being in the learning business and the education business so I really focus on the business side quite a bit. How do you market effectively? How do you price effectively? How do you create great products? I always think it’s important and this is where business and learning really mesh quite well. And what you’re saying, Jonathan, that if you want to give people options, that’s a great thing to do from a business standpoint so that they can come in at a lower price point and you can eventually move them to a higher price point with higher value associated with it, something like a mentorship.
That also aligns very well with learning. Because their initial need, they’re probably not going to be going as deep. They just need to get some familiarity, some initial competency. But then, if they decide they want to move into a more expert type level, you’re providing them the option to do that. You’re providing that path for growth, which is a great thing to do for learning. So, yeah. I mean, I think any who is going to offer an online course of any type should look at it and say, “Okay. What can I offer that’s one or two steps down from this? What can I offer that’s one or two steps up from this? And have a minimum of three offerings whenever you put a product into the market just based off of that core content?
Jonathan: What do you think Kim?
Kim: Absolutely. And that’s something I’ve been working with, with my clients and students for a while is having those different offers, as well as what I’m seeing in the market now because more and more courses are coming online. If you want to charge a premium, people are paying for access. Whether that is a high-end coaching program or mentorship program, whichever you want to call it, however you want to lay it out. Or even if it’s a regular class but instead of being the $399 or $499 class, it’s $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 because you have time for, I call it office hours with my students. I’m actually online there to help and support them X amount of time a week or critique their work, etcetera, give them feedback. But that’s something that a lot of times in the online learning, people rushing to this concept of passive income, that it’s lost. You know, “Okay. I went through your four lessons. But now what? How do I know if I did anything right?”.
Kim: “I’m depending on what you’re teaching”. That may or may not be the case. But I definitely see it as something. And I think as we go forward, if you want to charge a premium price, you’re going to have to have those premium programs more and more.
Jeff: Yeah. Definitely.
Jonathan: Also, do you feel they’re benefits on the higher level, that you actually have physical meetings? Do you think it is necessary at some stage? And if you do agree with that, why do you think it helps in the learning process, having the option or periodically having a conference or a weekend meeting with students with the course creator or mentors?
Jeff: It’s an interesting area. I would say that I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary. If you’re using the tools properly, you can achieve very high levels of learning purely online and there’s a whole body of research around really the medium not mattering so as the methods and being able to employ the right methods in whatever medium you’re using. Now that said, from both a business and a learning standpoint, I’m still very much a fan of face to face. I think things happen in face to face that you just can’t count on happening in an online environment. Knowledge gets shared, behaviors get modified in ways that just aren’t going to happen in an online environment. And then, I think from a business standpoint, if you’re able to build that face to face relationship with your customers, when you’re back online with those people, that connection is just going to be that much deeper. We talked about connection earlier around motivation. You start to have a highly motivated group when you’re meeting with those, it may just be your core followers, the 10 or the 20 or the 50 but that group of people gets really motivated. They get really almost evangelistic. And if they’re in your online community, for example, they’re probably going to be the ones who are really driving that community for you. So I think there’s a lot of value still in face to face. And you see it a lot with the online providers almost evitably start moving towards having major annual events or something like that where they’re pulling people together.
Jonathan: Got a final question, Kim? And then we’ll wrap up the podcast part of the show.
Kim: I had one. I loved your idea of talking about even an online community, building it to a point where people could teach and learn from others. Really powerful stuff because one of the best ways to learn is to teach.
Kim: I have to learn it well enough to explain it to somebody else. Have you done that online? So, in my classes, a lot of times I have forums where people are sharing. But I’ve never, I’ve done it in offline classes but never in an online class. Have you ever done anything where you actually formally set up to where students would take a small chunk and teach it to the other part of the group? And if so, what was the response to that?
Jeff: We have. In fact, it’s a central part of our events, both online and face to face. We’ve done this. We do what we call content pods, which are short 15 to 20-minute talks and we’ve even done 10-minute talks, which we call 10-minute talks at one of our events. And for those, in particular, we go specifically to people who attend our events. People who are typically the learners and recruit them to deliver some of the short segments on something they’re passionate about. And in this current online conference, we actually went total practitioner basically. So, we presented some of the content but we also went to some of our usual students and said, “We’d like you to do a full blown workshop on this. An hour and a half long online workshop”. We’ve had a total of eight workshop sessions. We only delivered one of them and we’ve had practitioners deliver the other seven. And we always hear back from those people that it’s a fantastic experience because they know this stuff. But as you were saying Kim, to really kind of master it, you have to teach it. You have to go through that process of, “How am I going to explain this to somebody else?”. And we’ve just had some incredibly valuable sessions as a result of that.
Kim: Thank you.
Jonathan: That’s great. We’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show folks. But if you want to see more of our discussion, you’ll be able to go to the WP-Tonic website and we’re going to continue the discussion with Jeff. I’m going to ask Jeff some questions probably about Malcolm Gladwell, a couple of his books and see what, Jeff’s been really great with my questions. So, Jeff, how can people contact you and learn some more about what you and your company is doing?
Jeff: Sure. I’m in a number of different places. Probably most like for the WP-Tonic audience, I would say check out my Learning Revolution site, which is at learningrevolution.net. And the great thing is, if you go there, I’ve got my Learning Revolutionary’s Toolbox, which I’ve just recently put out a completely revised and new edition of that, completely free. You don’t even have to give me your email address. I just want people to get it. And it goes through all of the different tools that you would use to create and deliver online courses.
Jeff: It’s about 33 pages long. Really chalk full of good information. So, go to learningrevolution.net, download the Toolbox and of course, there’s a contact form there which you’ll be able to get straight to me from that.
Jonathan: We’ll make sure that’s in the show notes. Kim, how can people contact you and find out what you’re up to?
Kim: I think the easiest way is to check out all my different platforms at kimshivler.com. So, whether you’re looking for the WordPress online course piece or just my instructional design and strategies, that’s where you can find them.
Jonathan: And if you want to find out about WP-Tonic, there’s two great places. Go to the website. There’s a load of information on that website if you’re into Learning Management Systems or Membership sites or go to the Facebook page. All the latest interviews are on there and I’m going to do a bit more activity on there myself. If you want to really support the show, give us a review on iTunes. It really does help the show. And I periodically have a on the new ones and I read them out on the show. So that can be amusing. So we’re doing to wrap up this part of the show. But like I say, if you want to see more of our interview, go to the WP-Tonic website or our YouTube channel. And we’ll be back next week with somebody doing something either in WordPress or Learning Management Systems where they’re doing something really interesting. We’ll see you next week folks. Bye.
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