Copyright Problems Working With WordPress
Its always a shock when you find somebody has totally copied your website or code. What should you do in this situation we discuss your options!
Jonathon: Welcome back folks to the WP tonic show. This is episode 494. This is going to be an internal discussion between me and my great co-host Adrian of Groundhogg. We’re going to be talking about copyright and if somebody makes some of your content of your website. Or they copy a whole application, what do we think about that? And we give some advice on what are some of the things that you’ve got to consider about stopping somebody doing that. So Adrian, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the new listeners and viewers?
Adrian: Hi everyone. My name is Adrian. I am the CEO and founder of Groundhogg, a marketing automation suite of plugins designed to help you grow your business.
Jonathon: And I’m the founder of WP Tonic where everything that you need, if you want to build a course. If you want to make money from e-learning, we can build the whole thing out for you or provide a platform using the power of WordPress to build your e-learning course yourself with our support. So you can concentrate on building a great course and we can concentrate on the technology. So I think one of the subjects we’re going to start off with and then we’ve seen how we go. Adrian is about copyright. So have you come across anybody, I’m taking chunks of the Groundhogg website. Is that come up on your radar too?
Adrian: Not yet. You know, that being said though, you know, I’m looking forward to the day that that actually happens. Cause that kind of means that, you know, you’ve reached a certain spot in the hire-achy of the industry when someone else starts thinking about copying your stuff. I know that recently happened to Jack at WP-fusion. Someone copied his plugin and nulled it and they’re selling it and their premium plugins pack. It’s full of spam wear and cripple-wear and stuff like that. So don’t download it. But you know, once you get to that point or once that happens to you, you’ve reached certain like status, which is kind of cool. So I’m actually looking forward to that day. But the question comes like, so can you do anything about it?
Jonathon: Well, it’s a very gray area though. Obviously WordPress, a lot of the things you do WordPress is covered by the open licenses.
Adrian: GPL the general public license. For those of you who do not know any software in the WordPress repository. So this is not necessarily premium plugins and premium software that you have to purchase outside of the WordPress ecosystem. Now, outside of the WordPress repository does not necessarily have to be GPL. But the general public license covers all software and all plugins within the WordPress repository, all the free stuff that you can download, all the themes, all the plugins are covered under GPL. And it basically means that anyone is able to freely modify, redistribute, sell and pretty much do whatever they want with any code that you put in the repository under the general public license. That’s why it’s considered open source.
So all of my plugins are GPL licensed and most of everybody that I know is plugins are our GPL switch. Because the method of distribution for a WordPress plugin is generally through the wordpress.org repository. And a qualification of selling plugins that are related to plugins in the WordPress repository is that all of your stuff has to be GPL as well. Elementor got into trouble with that with Matt who pushed for their premium offering of Elementor to be GPL, which was formerly MIT license, which provides a little bit more control and restriction to the actual developer.
Jonathon: Yeah, we discussed it last week on the WP tonic round table show, didn’t we?
Adrian: Yeah, we got into it a little bit. This was actually earlier. I think this is last year. And they were operating their premium version under MIT, which gave them a lot more control over who could mess with their stuff. And it gave them legal grounds to pursue people who were making extensions in stuff that they didn’t like or that they wanted to go away. That gave them legal status to do that. The GPL, which they inevitably reverted to for their premium version as well removes them that control and flexibility. And basically it’s kind of like a free for all now.
Jonathon: So you’ve got that element of complexity. Let’s see. Because in general you are allowed, any kind of plugging that’s been diverted your, you’ve got every right to take that and do whatever you want with it.
Adrian: Pretty much. Even if it means like to, you can take anybody’s plugin or any software, WordPress, and you can recall it. You can change the name, you can change whatever and upload it to the repository and then sell it as marketed as your own. There’s literally nothing preventing you from doing so. Except for development and resources and support and all the stuff that of course you incur as now becoming a software developer with somebody else’s stuff. The most famous example of this is probably WooCommerce, which used to be WPE commerce until it got forked and became WooCommerce.
It is now the de facto e-commerce solution in the entire world.
Jonathon: Yeah. As you know, that calls the local controversial comment. The way it was handled, blah, blah, blah. But fundamentally they did nothing wrong.
Adrian: Legally they did nothing wrong. Ethically is certainly up to interpretation. And I mean if we’re looking now however many years later, six, seven, eight years later, however long ago it was, it’s fundamentally a different product than it was when it was forked. It is like there, is barely anything recognizable in between the original version and the product that we have today. So it kind of begs the question in situations like this, when you have kind of like that split in the road when someone’s like, you know what, I really like what this person is doing, but I think that I can take it to the next level. Do they have an obligation to actually do so? Because if they have the resources and the will to, you know, go and say, I think you’re doing great and you know, power to you, but I’m going to do it.
Adrian: I’m going to try and do it by self and I don’t need to start from scratch. It`s just your stuff is open source. Let’s have a go at it and we’ll see what we can create. Because it’s almost guaranteed that without WooCommerce ever actually existing, would we have the same level of sophistication in that software that we would have if WP commerce had continued. And by the way, I met the founder of WP Commerce. And he’s not bitter or anything, and he’s actually, you know, it was like, you know, it is what it is, you know, that’s the game that we play. And they did really, really, really well with it. So it’s tough and, but it’s hard to look at WooCommerce and say they’re a bad company because they were originally forked from another one, but it’s super painful when it happens in the first place.
Jonathon: Yeah. So you got an element. Also you’ve got the element that you know, the branding, you can end copyright. And protecting to logo and key branding elements of your business. So you can definitely copy protect those in America. I don’t know what the situation is in Canada. It’s pretty similar and in the U K but you got to understand that WordPress has become a global business.
So a lot of people that blatantly copy look of a website or even key elements if they are based outside the US, Canada and you haven’t got the resources to higher I lawyer in a different country. It’s bad enough you’re hiring a lawyer to pursue something like this, your own country. But if somebody copied the whole website of Elementor and copied their branding. And just altered it slightly. And then flaunt it as well. Well obviously Elementor is a pretty substantial company. They are based in Israel. They would have to employ lawyers in America if that company was based in America, but they probably aren’t. It’s probably biased in some other country in the world. Well you ca see and see where all this is leading. It is a nightmare.
Adrian: Yeah, it is. And you know, with GPL and kind of all of these issues I think the big deal of it all prevents people from actually entering the space in the first place. Because if you’re, for example, a software as a service organization, you don’t have a problem. Because your code is protected, your site is protected. All of this stuff is protected and you don’t necessarily, you know, have the same fears of someone just going out and basically copying your shit. It still happens.
It takes a lot more effort and a lot more money to do that in the software service industry, but not so in the WordPress industry, which is, you know, we’re open source and all that good stuff. If that were to happen and you know, on the scale of like elementary or something, right. The thing is like they have such a brand reputation at this point. 4 million people sites using elementary around the world. Crazy numbers. And I don’t think that a small player with a limited budget who blatantly copies whatever is going to be able to do any sort of harm to reputation and brand that’s so large.
Jonathon: I think Elementor just started doing things that really damage their own user base.
Adrian: The only people who can damage elements are at this point is Elementor. The concern comes when you’re maybe my size and you know, you got, you know, a few employees, you got thousand customers. And you know, you don’t have a global brand reputation at this point. So the fear is certainly very real. And if someone were to come in and say, Hey listen, I’m going to take all your stuff and make it my own and there’s nothing damn thing you can do about it, you know, you’d be pretty pissed. It would not be it would not be a good day. So the question is, do you hire, you know, do you, do you personally,
Jonathon: I just want to tweak the ALS I have you, have you done that yourself with your own branding? Have you protected it?
Adrian: So all, yeah. Groundhogg trademark, copyrights all in place.
Jonathon: It is best we discuss if you are okay about it, discussed in the process of doing that in the second half. How does that sound?
Adrian: Yeah. So I absolutely, you should. If and I’ll just quickly say if you have a brand, you should trademark it. Because without a trademark, you have no legal grounds to pursue anybody who’s actively damaging your brand.
Jonathon: But now I’ve had a couple of people. One was legitimate and one wasn’t. I have a virtual assistant that helps me out and we were building some pages out. And by basically copied a few paragraph from an existing site. And the individual that wrote it I’m actually a customer of theirs. And they sent me a really, really awful email, threatening me, that we’re going to expose me in their WordPress group as a fraudster. And a terrible person in the WordPress community, blah, blah, blah. And I just told him to get on with it.
Adrian: As you should have because you know, I would be remiss if I didn’t say that I didn’t borrow inspiration from other people’s stuff before.
Jonathon: But you know you can’t actually protect tech. Now if you’d take a whole book or a whole magazine article or you know it’s, it’s a slightly gray area when it comes to actual text based on the research I’ve done. And the other time I got threaten. This was about two years ago. I got frightened or about 18 months ago. I got frightened by somebody that’s notorious for this actually. And I’m not going to name him. They run a website and a course. And a very popular Facebook page community. But by copyrighting myself, we wrote article and he came back to me, he said, you, you’ve copied this article. And I said, well you publish something in this area over a year ago and yeah, we’re writing about the same subject. But if you look at any of the paragraphs we have not lifted them. And he said, well yeah, you’ve copied. I said, you can’t copyright a theme
Adrian: You cannot, you can’t copyright topics, and you can’t claim a resolution. You can’t claim a conclusion and you can’t claim the question. Those are just things that are available to anyone to discuss topics. If you start at the same point and you end at the same point. Just because you started and ended the same way, just not necessarily make it the same as somebody else’s work. There are 100,000 ways to do the same thing in code. And the same is said for text, the written word blog posts.
Jonathon: And he got very, very upset with my aunts extremely upset and I made the business decision. I just didn’t want to get into a pissing match with this individual. And so we took it down and we did a major rewrite of it. And we put it back up again under my supervision. I made the decision, I wasn’t very happy the way that he handled it and the way that you spoke to me. But on the other hand, I didn’t really want to get into a major cause he had a major Facebook group still has. And basically I found out the guy is a bit of a prick anyway, so be quite truthful about it. I found out I wasn’t the only one that he has done this to. So that the past, but just to recap before we go for a break is, you know you do need to copyright, you need, you do need to check your brain, but you got to understand that any protects you from somebody.
Adrian: Maliciously attacking.
Jonathon Well they’ve got to be based in the US realistically or based in Canada. Especially, you could approach their hosting provider, but their hosting provider has to be based in the US. And a lot of hosting providers now are, they are based in Bulgaria that they can have servers and in Malta. There’s a number of hosting in Bulgaria, Hungary. A lot of hosting now is based outside the US. Legally they are based outside the US. Well, you can write to them and you can ask them nicely, but legally they don’t have to take any notice of your request. And it’s the same if they’re legally established in Malta or Bulgaria. Or in the Far East or anything. But legally you can write to them, you can ask them, but you cannot make them do anything. Can you?
Adrian: No, you can’t. I have a few more thoughts. Let’s go to the break.
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Jonathon: We are coming back. Just some more thoughts about this Adrian.
Adrian: So the first thing I’d like to say is there’s no such thing as an original idea. It just doesn’t exist. Everybody’s got an idea and they’ve written something out on a napkin. Or on a blog post or they’ve written some code or whatever it is. But there’s no such thing. And the question is if you were a creator and you see someone else doing something in the same vein, maybe even lifting a couple paragraphs or a few phrases or maybe some design inspiration from your site. What do you do? And I’d, I’d, you know, I’d argue to say that, you know, do nothing. Even if you know, this person is obviously, you know, barring some inspiration and I am someone who has borrowed inspiration from many different places.
Adrian: When it comes to design and copywriting and all of this stuff, I am super lazy. So what I do is I go out and I observe other organizations that are successful in what they’re doing. And then I try to emulate that without downright copying. And I try to emulate the design aspects of their sites. I tried to emulate the phrases in the copywriting, but you know, tweak it to actually suit whatever my needs are. For example, SIADH bulky who runs some of the most successful WordPress plugins in the industry has the same pricing page layout for every single one of his products. And the reason that he has that product page and that pricing layout is because he’s tested it to the frickin, moon and back and he knows that it works. So I’m like, well, if he knows that it works, then it’ll probably work for me.
Adrian: So I went to his pricing page and I absolutely, blatantly borrowed some design elements of that page in order to make by pricing page perform better because it was performing like crap. And I think that’s okay. And I think that he’d probably think it’s okay if he ever listens to this. Because no one really owns design. And he probably went out and he learned that layout from guess what somebody else. Everybody learns someone something from someone and then they emulate that. And what happens is, you know, along the ways of learning from other people, we see other people learn the same things, but then we think that they actually copied us. So if you put in another path, that perspective becomes a little bit different. And a lot of times people will just have similar ideas to other people and that’s okay too.
Adrian: But it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re copying. The difference in lies is, is the copying with malicious intent. If you can define malicious intent, then absolutely, you know, send a cease and desist letter. This happened when I used to work in the agency here in Toronto. Someone lifted our site and had the agency’s name was training business pros, their name was business training pros, which is awfully similar. And then they had lifted pretty much page for page, a whole bunch of the design and sites. So we sent a cease and desist letter.
Jonathon: Were they based in Canada?
Adrian: They were based in Canada. They are based in Toronto. So it’s like, okay then you know, this is pretty, pretty obvious at this point. And then you know, if it’s obvious, go ahead send a cease and desist letter.
Adrian: But if there’s no malicious intent behind it, you know it’s going to cost you more money to send the lawyers letter than them taking it down or removing it is going to save you. There’s so much business on the internet and there’s so much traffic and there’s so much fricking content that you pursuing any sort of legal route to seek reparations is going to cost you more than you’d actually save by doing absolutely nothing. Especially if there’s no malicious intention.
Jonathon: There are a couple areas here that you go to be aware of. First of all your logo.
Adrian: Well that stuff you have to trademark.
Jonathon: How painful was it to find a good lawyer? First of all did you hire a lawyer? Did you do this yourself? And secondly, how hard was it to find a lawyer that you are happy with?
Adrian: So first of all, do you a favor, hire a lawyer. There is no reason for you to try and figure out the complicated processes for each. So I trademark in Europe and the United States and Canada. You have to trademark in all places individually in order to protect yourself in those regions. So it’s not just you can register in Canada and then you’re protected everywhere. Now you have to register in each region on each system separately. So that’s something that you have to take into account. We hired an IP lawyer that actually used to be a client for the agency.
Adrian: So that was actually pretty serendipitous that way, a wage, you know, call them up and say, Hey listen, you know, we have this venture and we need your help. I’m like, okay, great. We can, we can help you out there. So that was super easy. Although there are plenty of organizations and sites where you can, they have lawyers in house. They essentially just upload your logos and upload your files online and behind the scenes they’ll just take care of everything for you for like 500 bucks per region essentially or for per image per logo. So we have, for example, our mascot trademarked. We have our logo trademarked. We have obviously the brand names trademarked and et cetera, et cetera.
Jonathon: So roughly if you don’t mind, if you don’t want to answer, I totally understand, but roughly to cover Canada, US and Europe, how much did it roughly cost you?
Adrian: It roughly costs for all three for me, $3,500 Canadian. Although I know you can get it cheaper through going through the online services. But it’s a question of who you want to work with and how much it is you want to protect. For me, the mascot and the logo were the most important things. That’s what we want to protect as the brand. The code don’t really care about impossible to trademark or copyrighted anyway. And obviously, you know, code is fluid. You know, websites are fluid, design fluid, words fluid that stuff is ever changing. But the logo and mascot and those design elements are permanent. So don’t spend time if you’re going through the trademark or the process, you know, don’t try and save things or protect things that will change. Because your changes will just void any protections that you have.
Jonathon: The area that is a little bit different and is really it happened to me about 10, 11 years ago. And it still regularly happens is clients or smaller agencies. So you’d be surprised the kinds of organizations that still do this do not take images off the internet and then start using them. Because they are certain photographic agencies that have made a career about pursuing other agencies and their business model.
Adrian: This happened to us. Actually, I have an anecdotal story of this. You know, back in the day, you know, what you’d do is if you’re like putting a webpage together, even as a demo web page. Which was what happened in this case, putting together some like this demo website, which is accessible to anybody by the internet. It wasn’t like launched or anything, but we just need some images in there and we’re not going to go buy images right away until we know what kind of like the final design. So we go to Google images and what you do fricking downloaded images like, yeah, it’s close enough for now and you know, we’ll change it later or buy it or whatever. So we’re putting the site together and all of a sudden we got an email from should I say the name? I won’t say the name. But we get an email from a photo distributor and online photo distributor and online photo distributors saying you’re using one of the sites that we own or one of the images that we own the copyright for. And you need to pay us $3,000 or we’ll sue essentially. And the thing is like, shit we paid because you don’t really have a choice.
Jonathon: Oh, Jesus. I took it straight down and I said I made a mistake. And in the end I had to give him a couple hundred dollars. But they sent me a lot of letters and a lot of very frightening letters I might show the images were taken down straight away. And most people their business models are notorious. And other people they will send you a warning letter and give you some grace time to take it down. They’re more worried in protecting their intellectual property. But they were using it as a business model, and I refused and I settled for $300 with them.
Adrian: Yeah, I know. It’s protect you by using royalty free images or just buying them. Back in the agency days, this was like five, maybe six years ago. And you know, a lot of the ambiguity.
Jonathon: Well the main thing is taking images and multiform heavily their technology. They use it for tracking.
Adrian: That`s why I use Canva now. I use Canva and that protects us wholeheartedly because they have their library of images that you can use. And you can throw in graphics and whatnot on top of them and that voids any copyright that anybody else might have claim to that image and protects you from that.
Jonathon: Well it’s probably like still makes it more difficult or more fluid, the situation doesn’t it? Yeah,
Adrian: And because at the end of the day, is the question from the business perspective. If again, it all comes down to malicious intent. Is it worth going after this person and trying to collect how much is it going to cost me to collect on the amount that they owe me? You know one of the things about the court system for civil lawsuits and frauds in Canada are that the court system is not a collection system. And that if go and you actually try and collect anybody, it’s basically a fruitless endeavor. Because all they have to do is dissolve and reopen under a new name and then you have to start the litigation process all over again. So it’s like all right, how much am I actually going to spend in order to get any kind of monetary compensation?
Jonathon: The only area where this particular advice, and it’s my personal opinion where it doesn’t, is around copyright and brand trademark. Is my understanding, I might be totally wrong here is that when you take a trademark out in the US and this might be different in Canada, in Europe. But in the US specifically, if you take a trademarked out, you are expected to defend it. And if somebody else is using that trademark, you’re expected to challenge it and if you don’t in the end you lose control of the trademark.
That is my understanding, I might be wrong. I am not giving any legal advice to here, I have no lawyer. But on the allies side of things in general, unless it’s a blatant copyright infringement, taking the whole website or taking certain elements of your brand in if it’s not and the person doing it is based in your area. I really wouldn’t really get that upset about it. I think you got better things to concentrate your time on.
Adrian: And put your energy on somewhere more productive.
Jonathon: Exactly. And the people that do this, I see it as a sign that their business is in decline and they got too much time on their hands basically. To wrap this up, what do you think Adrian?
Adrian: I absolutely agree. Listen, if someone is doing a blatant, you know, copy is because they got nothing better to do and they’re not really a threat. So if you’re really concerned about it and you have legitimate grounds to be concerned. For example, your customers are confused by they see this site and they think it’s you and it’s not, then that is a legitimate concern. Because then it’s confusing and it’s costing you money and time support and all this things. My process for dealing with this is as follows. Number one, send them a very nice very understanding email that says, Hey, listen some of my, whatever the reason is that you’re distressed, some of my customers are, you know, confused and there is there because your site to be super similar to mine. You know, this is probably just an a misunderstanding or maybe you hired someone or whatever. Would you mind making these changes to make it more obvious that these are not the same thing? And if they basically, you know, if they respond, you know, and they respond, Hey, yeah, no problem. We’ll make those changes. No worries. We’re sorry for causing the problem. Great, you know, nothing is wrong.
Jonathon: I think that’s such good advice because the couple of times, one were to make a mistake. The other time I just didn’t agree. They really approached me in a really quiet, aggressive way. I think the advice that you just given is so insightful Adrian. Keep it polite, keep it reasonably friendly. There’s no need to ruffle up. You know, it does the opposite of what you’re looking for. I feel
Adrian: Aggression seeks aggression. If you go in aggressively, guess what? You’re going to get an aggressive response. So be nice about it. If you’re legitimately concerned then if they’re a good actor, if the other, if the person on the other end is a good quality actor, then you are going to get a nice resolution. You’re going to get a resolution to your issue. If it’s a bad actor and the copying was with malicious intention, whatever. Spend the $500 on a lawyer to send a cease and desist letter. But if they’re a bad actor and they don’t respond to the cease and desist letter, give up, spend your and focus your energy elsewhere. Unless of course, they’re attacking your trademarks and all of that stuff, then you’re going to need to spend a little bit more money and you know, go through the legal steps into protecting your trademark. Cause that’s important.
Jonathon: But in my experience, unless you know, you are actually being sued and what has been asked of you, you feel you just came up set with these people? In my experience of voiding the legal system you know, if you’re owed money, you know, suing people that are your money, you really got to find out, have they got any money to pay you? There is no point in suing somebody that’s gone bankrupt because you’re not going to get any money. So some people really go gung ho and they really seek legal remedies and they learn the hard way. But the legal system really is not a collections agency where you really should avoid like the plague unless you know you’ve got no option all you’re being forced in it by somebody else’s action. It’s not something to actively pursue. It’s something to avoid like the plague.
Adrian: When you’re down at the small business level, it’s not like Coca Cola and Pepsi. They have almost infinite resources to spend on lawyers litigation and they have the pocket books to back up any sort of no declaration of compensation by the court. Down at the small business level. All you have to do to avoid paying anything is set up an LLC, have an LLC. So if you have a limited liability company and you own everything in the organization, owns nothing essentially, then great, you’re not going to be able to collect from any organization that you sue. Number one. Number two if you do happen to get past the LLC or they’re not, maybe, maybe they’re not an LLC, right? And you’re still in the organization. The organization has assets, and a lot of cases what that person can do is they can just dissolve their company, reincorporate under a different name, move whatever brand trademarks that they have to the new organization to avoid any sort of legal fees.
Adrian: And then you have to again start your litigation process all over. So it’s really, you know, I don’t want to say it’s a fruitless endeavor because if you’re going up against the large organization, they don’t have those luxuries. They’re incorporated not under LLCs, but under proper organizations that has assets and they can’t just dissolve and then, you know, spark up something new. So you have, you know, if you’re going on for longer documentation, fine. But at the smaller level. Like at our level, we don’t there. It’s a fruitless endeavor in most cases. In the agency, we’ve taken on several legal battles where we were, someone actually tried to sue us for a breach of contract when they failed to deliver on their product, which is not great. They sued and we ended up winning the lawsuit and they, and they were ordered to pay $25,000 in reparations and court fees. And they dissolved reincorporated and we have not been able to collect. But the lawsuit was basically at that point, just proving a point for us, it was the principle we wanted to win based on principle instead of paying whatever ridiculous fees that he said that we owed him when he failed to deliver on the product that he promised.
Adrian: And it’s not a collections agency and we’re not, we’re never going to see that money and we know that and we’re okay, but we won. And so if you’re doing it based on principle, then you go right ahead. But make sure that you just have the pocket book to back it up.
Jonathon: Let`s wrap up the show. So Adrian how can people find out more about you and Groundhogg?
Adrian: So you won’t find much legal advice or preparations advice on my site. But if you’re looking for marketing automation and you want to be able to build your list and communicate with your listeners and your subscribers, then you can head over to groundhogg.io with two G’s. And we have lots of tools and plugins that will help you do exactly that.
Jonathon: And if you want to support the show go to the WP tonic website and sign up for our monthly newsletter. And it’s going to have loads of content. I’ve revamped it. It’s going to have a lot more content about WordPress. The plugins that we talked about on the round table show that we recommend. Articles that are right during the month around WordPress and e-learning and some of the best podcasts of the month as well. So it’s a great newsletter and you can also win a prize. And I’m hoping I’m going to have to find the winner this month. I haven’t even looked yet. And it will probably be next week. We could be announcing a winner and they’re going to win a prize up over $200. And I think it’s going to be learned flow, the actual license for the year, and that’s worth more than $200. So sign up for the newsletter and you can win a monthly prize. And we’ll see you next week. See you next week folks. Bye.
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