SEO is changing fast in 2026. Discover the key shifts in AI search, rankings & strategy you must know to stay ahead of competitors. Don’t get left behind.

As we move into 2026, the SEO landscape is evolving rapidly. In this video, we dissect the latest trends, algorithms, and essential strategies that every digital marketer needs to stay ahead. Discover the implications of AI, user experience, and shifting search behaviors on your optimization tactics. Don’t get left behind.

With Special Guest TJ Robertson, The Owner of TJ Digital.

This Week’s Sponsors

Kinta: Kinta

LifterLMS: LifterLMS

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The Show’s Main Notes

[00:00:22.540] – Jonathan Denwood

Welcome back, folks, to the WP Tonic show. This week in WordPress and SaaS. Um, it’s, we’ve got a great guest today. We’ve got TJ Robinson. He’s the owner of TJ Digital. Came on my radar cause he went on the Edward Show, which is a really fantastic SEO information show. And TJ really impressed me. So I thought I would ask him on the WP Tonic Show, and he was gracious enough to accept the invite. Should be a great show. We’re going to be talking about everything SEO and how things are changing rapidly in this area. He’s also going to be discussing his thoughts around WordPress and about M- and it just should be a great discussion. But before we go into the interview, I’ve got a message from one of our major sponsors. We will be back in a few moments, folks.

[00:01:27.370]

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[00:02:00.700] – Jonathan Denwood

We’re coming back, folks. I also want to point out that we’ve got some great offers from the sponsors of the show, plus a curated list of WordPress technology and services aimed at the WordPress professional. How can you get all these free goodies? Well, go over to wp-tonic.com/deals, wp-tonic.com/deals, and that’s where you get all your free goodies. So let’s go straight into it. So TJ, thank you so much for coming on the show. So maybe you can give us some of the background on how you got into marketing and specifically SEO. For the tribe.

[00:02:42.200] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, for sure. I got, I got into marketing as I was a videographer first, back in like 2009. And I just, I was working for a lot of marketers. And I felt like it sounded a lot more fun than what I was doing. And I just started fiddling around with it on my own. And I mean, honestly, in my 20s, it was just a way that I could make enough money to pay my bills, and then still have a lot of time to play video games. Like, like a lot of us, I think my, my first motivation to make money online was just to work less. But then, but then I got some kids, and we got married. Well, in the other order. And, really started taking it seriously maybe like 12 years ago, and then just started this agency about a year ago.

[00:03:29.220] – Jonathan Denwood

Right. So you’re based in Las Vegas, Nevada, are you not?

[00:03:34.760] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, yeah. Here in Las Vegas. Been here most of my life.

[00:03:37.500] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, I spent a fair bit of time in Northern Nevada. I’m probably going to be moving back there, hopefully in the near future. So, so you got into SEO. S,o because it looked easier. So I think on the podcast, you said you worked for one agency for most of that time. Is that correct?

[00:04:00.030] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, I was with an agency for 11 years as the director of SEO right before I started this agency.

[00:04:06.190] – Jonathan Denwood

Right. And so what led you to decide— what were some of the main things that made you decide to start your own agency?

[00:04:13.510] – TJ Robertson

It was mostly just that I, I saw things were changing really quickly with AI, and I felt like the founder of that agency didn’t see that. He really wanted to kind of wait and see what other marketing agencies were doing. And then he just kind of had a demeanor of playing it safe. And I felt really confident that I knew things were changing and that we could see, maybe not exactly what shape it would take, but we could see the direction things were headed in. And it was time to really rethink how digital marketing is done and what we’re trying to accomplish with it. And so I did change a bit from the inside of that agency as much as I could, but it just, it was a little frustrating having a founder that didn’t believe the same thing I did. And I was just ready to kind of go and move fast. And so that’s what we’ve done over the last year.

[00:04:58.900] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s fantastic. Over to you, Curt.

[00:05:01.480] – Kurt von Ahnen

Well, I was kind of drawn to the website, you know, and the About Us page, and kind of your story there about budgets and transparencies and all those kinds of things, and how you deal with the customers. And I got to say, that’s very, very refreshing. We run Mañana No Más the same way, and we do e-learning basically like what you describe. It’s— I didn’t feel there was enough transparency. I was corporately employed and writing purchase orders for $300,000 and $400,000 for e-learning websites. And I was like, I know we could build these websites for less than $100,000. Why are we doing this? And so now I’m in the same boat, right? We run an agency, and we try to be really transparent and give people great value. Now, help me understand that whole lead-in. Great value in SEO. How do you, how does that really, I don’t, SEO seems like such a black art to some people, right? So it’s like, how do you drive the value of SEO? Especially when you don’t know what the results are really gonna be.

[00:06:07.550] – TJ Robertson

Yeah. And we do lead with that. It’s, it’s unpredictable. We can’t, we can’t tell you what the results are gonna be. We can tell you what typical results are for our clients, but if anyone comes to us and they’re like, ” This needs to work, I need leads this month, we’re gonna go outta business. I say, Go run ads. Like, SEO is not right for you. It’s, it’s unpredictable. SEO is right when you’re looking to grow long-term, and you’re willing to take some risk. And, if you are, I do think it’s the highest ROI form of marketing, especially right now with AI search. But I, I really, I don’t see SEO as a black art. I, I think that this idea that it’s a black art is really works in favor of these agencies that aren’t doing a whole lot. A lot of agencies, and I’m sure you know this, are selling clients on this idea that SEO is some kind of magic that we do behind the scenes. It’s mostly invisible. You’re not going to know what we’re doing. I can’t really even explain it to you, but trust me, we’re doing it, and it’s going to help you, and only we can do it.

[00:07:04.510] – TJ Robertson

And you can get away with that for a long time because SEO is so unpredictable. And so you can, like, just naturally, if you’re a business, you’re doing business, especially if you’re doing well, you’re probably going to go up in rankings over time. And rankings kind of just fluctuate up and down. And it’s really easy every time they go up to say that that was the black magic stuff we did. That’s why we went up right there. And then when it comes down, you go, ” Oh, that was a Google algorithm update. There was nothing we could do there. You know, it’s just how it is. And you see agencies do this for years with clients without really doing any meaningful work.

[00:07:43.790] – Kurt von Ahnen

What, what do you think are some of the key things that people just really don’t understand about SEO?

[00:07:49.660] – TJ Robertson

That, that most of these, so most SEO agencies, they’re gonna give you a big list of here, here’s the 23 things that we’re doing for you every month. And, and the truth is that 21 of those things probably aren’t gonna make a big difference. The, the things that probably don’t take the agency much time, and if they do, the agency’s wasting their time. There’s just really just a few things that matter. So it’s, it’s content and it’s authority, right? And so the, the biggest lift you can see in SEO is if there’s a, a term that you have the authority to rank for, but you don’t have content targeting that term. You create that content, that’s— you’re gonna see a huge lift immediately. You can now— and so it’s really just determining what terms do you have the authority to rank for, Do you have content for each of those terms? And if not, build it out. If you do, make sure it’s optimized and we could go into what that means. And then, and then once you have the content for those terms, then you can expand the authority and therefore expand the terms that you can rank for.

[00:08:49.680] – TJ Robertson

Yeah.

[00:08:50.180] – Kurt von Ahnen

At, at the risk of running deeper or having some pushback there, I feel like people try to rank for a keyword, they try to make the content that you’re talking about, and then something comes back. You know, from Google or from an SEO analysis or something that says like the content’s not deep enough or it’s too shallow or it’s irrelevant. And you’re like, I’m an expert in the space. I know that that’s the right thing. So why does Google say I’m irrelevant? Um, so I can see that there’s a little bit of frustration there. Is it, is it a lack of like entertainment value in the content? Is it like, is Google looking for some kind of a thing that you’re entertaining people as well than just giving information?

[00:09:31.530] – TJ Robertson

Maybe for some content, but not for the kind of content we tend to write. No, it’s typically the— Google wants content— Google appreciates content that satisfies the search intent. And that’s something they can measure with some accuracy. Now Google will also tell you they want high-quality content. Google has really no good metric of measuring quality. They have no idea if your content is insightful or honest, like, or accurate, right? Right? They’re not fact-checking your article. What they can see is they can measure behavior to your website and similar websites. And then they have— man, I don’t know how deep you want to go here. They have a team of quality raters, right? These are— I think last time I checked, there was like 16,000 of them. They’re contracted by another company that Google employs to just rate search results. And so Google can look at how these quality raters are rating search results. They can make an algorithm change, have them rate them again, and see if the results got better. And they just do this for, for many queries simultaneously. And so that data helps them see like, oh, these websites that are rated high or that get good user experience, um, have these similarities, and then they can compare that to your website.

[00:10:44.290] – TJ Robertson

But again, that’s— none of that’s going to tell them if anything is true or insightful. It’s, it’s just if it’s if it tends to satisfy the search intent. And, and so some SEOs will get really far down this technical rabbit hole and they’ll try to really understand how the algorithm works at a base level. And I’ve done some of that digging and I feel like I— it’s— it hasn’t been very fruitful for me. And then the algorithm changes and then you’re relearning how that— how everything works. I think for me, I go based on experience. We have 40 clients now at our agency. We get a lot of data in terms of what content’s ranking well, and then, and then other SEOs as well. And then just intuition on how Google works. So deep content works really well if that’s what the user is looking for. If we’re writing a blog post, we typically will go at least 2,000 words and we’re going to cite a lot of facts in there. We’re going to link to a lot of external sources. A lot of that too, though, is because AI is more likely to cite an article.

[00:11:45.100] – TJ Robertson

That, that has high fact density, as it’s called.

[00:11:48.460] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah.

[00:11:48.700] – TJ Robertson

Um, but if we’re writing a page, like a transactional page on your website, we don’t need 2,000 words there. There are some exceptions though. If you’re like a personal injury attorney, you might actually need 2,000 words on your, on your, uh, transactional page. But for most businesses, you’re, you’re just trying to provide the information that the searchers want to see on the page in a way that it’s easy for them to digest. Excellent.

[00:12:12.920] – Kurt von Ahnen

Thanks for that. Jonathan?

[00:12:15.440] – Jonathan Denwood

So, but how, because, um, I watched your great, in your great discussion with David de Quad, I think.

[00:12:25.130] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, David Quaid.

[00:12:26.320] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, sorry. And he’s coming on the show as well.

[00:12:29.350] – TJ Robertson

That’s great.

[00:12:30.230] – Jonathan Denwood

Um, I like David. He loses me, um, a little bit. It gets very technical, doesn’t he? But This discuss— because do you think what the large language models are looking for is the same what Google’s looking for? Because a lot of people say that the large language models in some ways reminds them of what SEO was like 10 years ago, what they’re looking for. And like David says, you know, basically they’re disguising, they’re using a term called fanning, but they’re disguising what prompts they’re using, but they’re getting a lot of their information from Google. So like David really says, this whole idea that there’s a separation between what large learning models and what Google is, a bit of smoke and mirrors, really. What’s your own position on this?

[00:13:36.770] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, it’s like David will tell you that they’re exactly the same and I will tell you they’re entirely different. And then when we sit down and have a conversation like we did, you’ll find that we actually agree on pretty much everything. And so that’s the—

[00:13:49.930] – Jonathan Denwood

that’s a great way of putting it. Yeah.

[00:13:52.260] – TJ Robertson

Yeah. I think it really just comes down to the framing. Because David’s totally right. When you go to a large language model and you type in a prompt or just a search, and when I say large language model, I’m including Google because Google’s going to spin up AI Overviews or AI Modes. You’re getting an AI response there as well. Whenever you go to an AI model and you do a search, the AI model is going to interpret your search based on that, based on everything it knows about you, based on previous chats. And then it’s going to do, as you mentioned, what’s called a query fan out. It’s going to to look at that search and it’s going to say, what are all the things I would need to search for to fully satisfy what this specific user wants right now? And it’s going to run each of those searches in a traditional search engine. So if you’re doing this in Google, it’s going to run that in Google’s search engine. ChatGPT has used a handful of different indexes. They have their own index, but it doesn’t seem like they use it very much. Their results do closely match Google’s, but not exactly.

[00:14:49.380] – TJ Robertson

Perplexities matches Google’s much more closely. I know that’s the one that David uses most. But even in Google, even though it’s using Google Search, there are some major differences. And that’s because one, those terms that the AI chooses to search for are different than the terms that humans choose to search for. So even if the factors for ranking are the same, you’re now optimizing for different terms, often much more specific terms, long tail terms. That include information that a human just wouldn’t include in a search. You know, I’m looking for a product with a money-back guarantee. You wouldn’t put that into a Google search, but you might include that in a conversation with an AI. And so we’re seeing these much more specific searches. But that’s not actually the biggest difference. The biggest difference is how many results are considered. If a human goes to a search engine, they’re probably only gonna consider the first 3 results after they get past the sponsored. Most people will skip the sponsored and then they’ll consider about 3 results. Maybe they’ll go to the bottom of page 1, but it’s unlikely. And then they’re probably only gonna visit 1 to 3 of those pages before they make a determination.

[00:16:00.200] – TJ Robertson

AI is very different. AI is gonna look at 10 to 20 results for each of those query fanouts, and it might do 3, 6, 12 different query fanouts. And it’s going to review the content on a selection of those, right? So it’ll retrieve about 20 per search. It’ll look at just the URL, meta title, meta description of each of those 20. It’ll determine which ones are going to help it solve the user. It’ll retrieve the content from those pages from its, from its index, and it’ll pull out the chunks that it thinks are relevant. And so it’s considering Oftentimes 12 to 20 different pages. It’s bringing all those chunks back into the context window, and now it’s looking at your question, all those retrieved chunks, and then gonna essentially summarize what those pages say. It’s not an exact summary because it does have some bias. It’s called, we call it the primary bias, which is built into its training data. So if it, if training data makes it think that this brand’s better, that’s gonna alter how it responds. But the biggest impact is gonna be the summary of those sited pages. And so I always say ranking’s the easy part in AI search, cuz you, you’re not trying to rank for super competitive terms anymore.

[00:17:11.010] – TJ Robertson

The terms are less competitive cuz they’re longer tail, and you don’t have to rank in the top 3 anymore. If you’re ranking in the top 20, you’re considered in the result set. The hard part is being selected. It’s, it’s, it’s being selected as one of the pages that’ll be retrieved and then having content on the page that’s cited. And so really, as long as you have the authority, and we should, we should probably talk more about authority because that’s, that’s what David talks about a lot and maybe the missing piece when we’re, when we’re talking about content alone. But if you have the authority to show up and the content is relevant, you’re gonna, you’re gonna rank for that term. Then it’s just about creating the kind, the structure of content that AI trusts and wants to retrieve back into the result set. And I think, and this is, I think the entire game By the end of 2026, traditional search result is going to be a thing of the past. It’s going to be very rare that you see, you know, blue links and you’re clicking on it. It’s going to be AI really making the recommendation for you.

[00:18:08.350] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, then I wouldn’t say I disagree with you, but that, that is the question, isn’t it? JG. Yeah.

[00:18:16.930] – TJ Robertson

Yeah. Yeah. There’s, and there’s a— I’m sorry about that, folks. No. And you mentioned the Edward Show, and Edward would disagree there. He doesn’t think that traditional search results will be replaced by the end of 2026. But I—

[00:18:31.230] – Jonathan Denwood

but you could be— well, at the present moment, would you agree before I throw it over to Kurt? Would you agree with these facts? What, you know, facts now, they’re not exactly facts. The research I’ve done, the experts I’ve listened to. Would you agree that at the present moment that most search is still dominated by Google. You know, about, some people say about 93% of search is still dominated by Google. I think a lot of people have been affected with the updates, the core updates, their attitude to, towards shallow content and all the other things we could discuss that and their own AI overviews. These are the things that are really reduced traffic, reduced phone calls, really affected, maybe not on local search, but on more regional, national. Are you saying that in your heart you, you think Google’s gonna go full AI by the end of this year? Because for you, for what, at the present moment, they still dominate 93. So is that what you’re in? You know, you don’t know, I don’t know, but you probably know a bit more than me. But is that what you think in your heart is that they’re going to go for AI, Google?

[00:20:05.320] – TJ Robertson

Yeah. I mean, we, we know that they’re, that’s their plan. They haven’t given a timeline. The timeline’s my intuition, but, um, like Nick Fox, the senior vice president of search was just on an interview, uh, in beginning of March, and he said that that’s the plan, that AI mode, AI overview, they’re already thinking of as one thing, and that all search will be AI search. So we know that’s the move it’s going in. And then I just, I think a few days ago, Sundar Pichai did a podcast on the Cheeky Pint podcast, and he said that he sees the future of search as you do a search and then you have a group of agents, a set of AI agents that are going out and doing tasks on your behalf. So it’s— Google’s been very upfront that this is the plan. The timeline’s the only question. And I think the timeline is just going to be determined on how quickly can Google put out a product that people prefer to the 10 blue links. And I think especially in the publishing world, no one prefers it, right? As you said, it’s eating up a lot of traffic.

[00:21:08.620] – TJ Robertson

And I think If you depend on traffic for income, then that, then that’s troubling. If you’re an affiliate website, if you run ads to make money, then I really think you should be considering a new business model. And I think there’s big opportunities right now for exactly those websites. Um, but if you sell a product or a service, traffic was never the goal, right? The goal is to sell that product or service. And people are using Google more than ever to determine what product or service they want.

[00:21:36.820] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s where That’s where I get a little bit confused really, TJ, is that obviously there’s buyer intent. You know, when I look at, you know, it’s been about 3 or 4 years I’ve really got serious about SEO. I should have got more serious a lot long time ago. Well, um, but you know, most, if you’re selling a service or a product, You, it depends on, you know, you probably aimed for content that was top of funnel because that tended to get a lot more click, a lot more traffic. And then you hoped to maybe convert some of that high funnel traffic, but the terms were pretty broad. You probably would be better off in going from middle to lower. Funnel with stronger intent. But if you’re not getting those people to your website and your analytics are showing you, you know, every month you’re getting less and less people to your website, even on the middle to lower intent of the funnel, that’s a problem, isn’t it?

[00:22:53.460] – TJ Robertson

It might be a problem. So it depends on why you’re getting less traffic. If you’re getting less traffic because your competitors are taking your traffic, That’s a problem, and that means they’re just doing better than you at SEO. If you’re getting less traffic because people don’t need to go to your website, they get the answer in the AI overview or whatever AI mode, it’s not necessarily a problem. Then the question is just, is the AI overview recommending your product, right? If I say, hey, I’m looking for a new computer monitor, can you recommend some? And AI mode says, this is the best computer monitor for you. I know everything about you. You know, you play these video games and you use this and this is when you want to buy. I’m way more likely to buy that monitor than I am to the monitor that just happens to rank number one on Google search. And so people are making a lot of these purchase decisions without going to your website. And so a lot of businesses, some of our clients included, are seeing their traffic go down, but their sales go up.

[00:23:54.410] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah. Um, I think, I think the main, one of the main problems is that we’re in this very twilight period and, you know, David or, um, Edward, he would disagree with you about, you, you say that and I think it’s totally arguable that Google’s really showing strong signs that they’re going to go full AI. But we’re in this twilight zone at the present moment, aren’t we? We’re in this in-between. And that makes things difficult because the reality is a lot of the traffic is still coming from Google, traditional Google, as I call it.

[00:24:37.280] – TJ Robertson

Yeah.

[00:24:37.520] – Jonathan Denwood

Then from, from large learning models. Would you, would you say that’s a good synopsis? Or is there anything extra you want to add to that?

[00:24:50.360] – TJ Robertson

No. Yeah, I think we are in that transition period right now. And I mean, fortunately, most of the things that you would do to rank in AI search are still going to help you rank in traditional search. You’re going to go for some more specific terms than you would have in traditional search, but you can still show up in traditional search with those terms.

[00:25:09.790] – Jonathan Denwood

But yeah, there was, there was some things. No. I think I’m going to throw it over to Kurt. We probably go until we go for a break and then I’m going to throw it for the next question, which is about en dash. But I think because when ChatGPT came on the scene, I don’t think I’ve done it. I always edit. I use AI because I’ve got a bit of dyslexia and it was really helpful. And I always edited added value through video. And I, I wasn’t one of these people that was producing hundreds of documents per week because you had influencers on YouTube that were saying to people you could automate it, basically just produce hundreds of articles. And they, they publicly stated that, and a lot of these influencers on YouTube found their own websites, got banned by Google, got whacked. Not surprising. And then, and then you’ve had AI overviews. And so what, because Google, do you think is really good? What do you think Google’s attitude to AI content? Do you think if they see it in any shape or form, you’re going to get banned?

[00:26:38.840] – TJ Robertson

No, no, no, no. I mean, Google’s come out and said they don’t mind AI content. I mean, Google just added a feature to their Google Business Profiles where you can respond to reviews with AI, which— that was wild to me because I wouldn’t even recommend doing that. And Google’s published AI content to their own blog, and Google has put out a plugin for Opal that produces blog posts for your website. So they, it’s been very clear. Google doesn’t mind AI content. What they care about is the quality of the content. Like I said before, they can’t tell the quality of your content. And so they have to typically manually penalize you. And that’s why you see like the companies, like you’re saying, that are producing sometimes hundreds of articles a day. Um, before they go down, they go up, right? Most of these publishers, it works, it works for a while and then it doesn’t. And so. And you see the same pattern every time you start publishing. If you publish a ton of content, it doesn’t matter if you use AI, if it’s optimized and it’s good enough, you will see your traffic go way up.

[00:27:39.480] – TJ Robertson

And that’s because the algorithms can’t tell. You’re giving the algorithms exactly what they want. You come back down when a human notices, when you get a manual action from Google, a penalty. It’s called a scaled content abuse penalty. And that— and if you look at the—

[00:27:52.080] – Jonathan Denwood

You just made me sweat a lot, Von. I’m getting very hot and bothered there, DJ.

[00:28:01.080] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, but yeah, if you look at what a scaled content abuse policy is, it is almost always done by AI, but the problem is not AI. It’s that you’re scaling content without quality measures in place.

[00:28:14.860] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, I think you’ve got to have some common sense. I just thought when I heard these influencers on YouTube, I’m not going to name names, you know the people. Because they’ve been on Edward’s show, a few of them, saying, you know, they’ve had to find a totally different business model because they got destroyed.

[00:28:34.090] – TJ Robertson

Yeah. Oh yeah. Some publishers. Yeah. If you’re relying on traffic, it really, it really can be a problem. And yeah, and I would not recommend automating content generation at all. We still have a human in the process for every piece of content we make.

[00:28:46.420] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, I know you do.

[00:28:47.880] – TJ Robertson

All right.

[00:28:48.140] – Jonathan Denwood

I think it’s a good time. That we go for our middle break. TJ’s been a fantastic guest. Kirk’s been patient, but he’s not feeling well either, but he’s, he’s a champ for keeping coming on the show. It’s been a fantastic discussion. We will go for our middle break and we will be back in a few moments, folks.

[00:29:09.050] – Kurt von Ahnen

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[00:29:46.330] – TJ Robertson

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[00:30:24.020] – Jonathan Denwood

We’re coming back, folks. Also want to point out, if you’re looking for a great host and you’re building a large learning model, language, language model, a large membership website or community website, why don’t you look at partnering with WP Tonic? Not only do we offer fantastic hosting, we are your technical partner. We’ve got a load of knowledge around building these large websites. If that’s interesting, and we offer some fantastic affiliate packages as well for the WordPress professional. Why don’t you go over to wp-tonic.com/partners, wp-tonic.com/partners. Let’s build something special together. So over to you, Kurt.

[00:31:19.210] – Kurt von Ahnen

Well, I don’t know what other people thought, but I thought it was an April Fool’s joke at first when I saw the M-Post. So, so I was like, oh, that’s interesting. I was like, that, you know, that dashboard looks similar but different, you know, those kinds of things. And I, and I thought it was just people poking the bear, right? That, that’s what I thought. And then I came to realize, oh no, this is like a real thing. Like Matt put out, you know, Matt Mullenweg, that is, um, you know, put out a blog post, like, you know, pardon me, saying, you know, he loves Cloudflare and he’s, he’s all embracing to this, you know, open source solution and all these things. But then I’m, I’m sitting here and I’m trying to read between the lines because from my position it looks like, you know, you’d have to host with Cloudflare and use the m- and do these different things. And, um, I know you’ve made some comments on it, TJ. What, what, what are your thoughts with, with m-? But then more specifically, what do you think are some key things that WordPress needs to get correct or, or needs to get in line to, to maintain their position?

[00:32:25.000] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, I, I don’t know if m- is the solution, but it’s a solution and the one I’m most excited about so far. I, I think there’s just still a lot that’s unknown, but I think there’s this problem we have right now where AI is now very good at making custom websites, but you still want a CMS. And so you can, you can vibe code a CMS if you want to, but I wouldn’t recommend it. And there’s lots of problems with that. And, and it would be nice if there was one shared CMS that everyone was contributing to the way they do to WordPress. We’ve used WordPress. I mean, my entire career we’ve been on WordPress. We still, if someone comes to me today and they want to build a website, we’re going to build it on WordPress unless they’re feeling experimental. Um, and, and we need the problem with WordPress is it’s just not keeping up with with AI right now. And I know WordPress 7 is coming out and they’re putting in some functionality that AI can do stuff, but it’s nowhere close to being able to really use AI as your lead developer.

[00:33:25.410] – TJ Robertson

And I think you still want a human in the loop, of course, you don’t want to just turn it over to AI, but it’s, you really can move a lot faster now. And if you’re careful with how you use AI and you give it the right skills and the right guidance, it can do a lot. And we’re— and that’s— I, I think that’s just the future of website development. I think if you’re insistent on making websites without AI, you’re going to have to charge prices that are, are just much higher than your competitors will for the same or less quality. Um, not to say there’s not a lot of AI slop out there. There is, but there’s also an intelligent way to use it. And I think we need a platform that’s built with that in mind. And so that’s what’s exciting to me about m- is it’s It looks a lot like WordPress, but under the hood, if you look at the architecture, the skills they’ve made, the MCP, it’s, it’s made really for AI agents first and humans second. And I, I think most developers will be AI, well, some combination of human-AI hybrid.

[00:34:19.470] – Kurt von Ahnen

Yeah. Now I realize I might be putting you on the spot, but in the WordPress space, you mentioned WordPress 7 already. You know, Spencer Foreman, friend of the show, he’s got his AI agent Fernando that he does all kinds of stuff with, with WP Launchify. But I also gave all of my money to Kevin Geary and signed up for the lifetime deal on Etch. And he’s been showing off some crazy cool stuff with AI in the Etch framework. So it, it makes me wonder if there’s still, still the ability. It almost seems like with WordPress, there’s always that ability to have WordPress as the centerpiece, the, you know, the block that makes everything happen, but then you have to add something to it to get it to do what you want it to do.

[00:35:05.610] – TJ Robertson

Yeah. Yeah. You totally can. And we’ve, and we’ve used, we’ve played around with two different WordPress MCPs. We’ve built pages, um, with Claude Code connected to WordPress. And, and since I’ve posted a few videos on TikTok talking about NDash, I’ve heard from a lot of people who have, have some pretty sophisticated, um, system setup where they’re using AI to develop on WordPress. So, you can totally do it. It just, to me, it doesn’t feel like that’s a focus. And I, I just, I feel like some platform, I don’t know if it’s Mdash, but I think there’s just, there’s a big opportunity in the market right now to build a CMS that’s focused on that and not bolting it on after the fact.

[00:35:45.070] – Kurt von Ahnen

I find the whole thing overwhelming and interesting all at the same time, TJ. It’s, uh, I’m, I’m still like old school agency guy, right? Let’s meet with the customer. Let’s do a needs assessment. Let’s build them a webpage. Let’s use the tools they want. And then there’s other people in the space that are like, let’s ask, you know, Claude to build this out real quick. And I just, I seem to be stuck in that middle ground. I’ve got to figure out how I’m going to get past that, that middle space. And maybe, maybe you have a thought on this. I think so much of what we do as agencies is really use case. Like if I’m doing something for someone that has a local food truck, that’s completely different. Than an enterprise-level e-learning project.

[00:36:26.420] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, no, 100%. And we still, it probably, the way I’m talking, it probably sounds like most of our development is done with AI, but it’s, it’s very little of our website development is done with AI right now. We’re using it for designs and then after that, it’s mostly experimentation. Like we’re just, we’re trying to get ready. I don’t think you should turn anything over to AI until AI is doing it better than a human could. I don’t think it’s good enough that, oh, it’s almost as good, but it’s way faster. So we’re going to turn over to AI. Like the only parts of our process that AI does, it does it better than anyone on our team could do it. I don’t think we’re there yet with development. And like you said, there’s a lot of customization that needs to happen for a particular client. And it just still right now requires a human, but I don’t think that’ll be the case 2 years from now. It might not be the case 1 year from now. And so that’s, that’s just the space that I’m operating in is how would we, instead of thinking what task in our process can I hand to AI?

[00:37:29.260] – TJ Robertson

Because I think when you’re looking at website development, you’ll find it’s essentially nothing. You ask, what if the whole process was gonna be done with AI? How would you do it? And then what still actually needs a human? You kind of flip it on its head. Cause I, cause That’s— I think that’s where we’re heading to, where AI is doing most of the process. And so we need to design the process with AI in mind first and then have the human kind of assisting that process. Still, when we do that, we’re going to— we fill most of the steps with a human, but at least then we have the framework to kind of see where we can start to remove ourselves in the future.

[00:38:05.970] – Kurt von Ahnen

I’m going to be selfish and take the next question because I feel like you’ve already crossed over into a little bit of that space. Over time, do you think, do you think agencies are going to evolve and become more efficient with AI, or do you think we’re gonna be like that missing link that just disappears? Like there’s people will just go direct.

[00:38:25.540] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, I think, I think some agencies will definitely disappear. But there’s a lot of agencies evolving. I mean, that, that’s what we’re doing. I, I, I built this agency on AI efficiency. I, right now I build about 3 Claude skills a day. I’m obsessed with Claude skills and it’s, it’s hard to see. It’s hard for me to find one task that our agency does that wouldn’t be able to be handed over to AI, even with today’s technology, with just enough work. And, and I talked to a lot of other agency owners that are doing the same thing. And I think while there will, I’m sure, be software that kind of does SEO for you. And a savvy entrepreneur, a savvy business owner could just talk to whatever AI model is the most advanced a year from now and kind of have it work as a consultant of sorts. I think most businesses aren’t going to want to worry about it. They’re going to want an agency. They’re going to want an account manager who’s a human that they can talk to, but they’re going to expect a much higher quality standard for what they’re paying because it’s, it’s just possible to do work a lot more efficiently and to a higher quality if you’re really incorporating interpreting AI well.

[00:39:34.120] – Kurt von Ahnen

Nice. Jonathan, that goes back to you.

[00:39:36.980] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, it’s, it’s like, again, I’m going to use that term, we’re in a kind of twilight area, aren’t we? We’re in, in between, kind of. Um, I had a client, um, that been with me— it’s only a really small client, but all clients are important— and they’ve been— you’ve been with me for about 8 years. hosting his website. I actually went, when I was actively designing and developing, I actually built his website and I did it on the cheap actually. It was, it looked pretty nice, I thought. And, um, his website was coming up for renewal and like 10 days before, a couple weeks before it was coming up, he says, oh, I’ve got my paid-for-click guy has offered to build and host a new website for me, and he’s using Lovable. And, and he looks so— it looks, it looks quite good actually. And what could I say? You know, I just helped and they moved it and they set it up. But this is a client that really doesn’t really— I don’t really think they know what they got involved with. And secondly, they really didn’t update their website, but they paid, they paid about, this is in, this is in the tourist area.

[00:41:06.860] – Jonathan Denwood

It’s got a business in Mount Shasta. And he’s, he’s spending about $15,000 on paid-for-click with Google. Um, which is quite, for a small business, it’s quite a lot of money.

[00:41:23.410] – TJ Robertson

Yeah.

[00:41:23.570] – Jonathan Denwood

But that’s, um, so it’s interesting. I, I think, I think for static small websites, I think, but what, so you’ve got these people, I think just moving to Lovable, I think if you’re a technologist and you want to do that, I think it’s fine because you know what you’re getting into. I think for the bog-standard business owner, I wouldn’t recommend that, and it’s not because I’m a WordPress hosting provider. That’s what I honestly believe. But I think what M Dash, I think, I think around plugin security using Astro, because, you know, WordPress, when it comes to mobile, it depends on the hosting and the setup. Has got a reputation of being a bit slow and mobile, but that’s a lot of variables to that. You know, if you’re putting in 80 plugins and you’re messing around with it, that’s what happens. But, but here’s the plugin security is, I think obviously you only get that plugin security if you’re using Cloudflare, who are a reputable company. I would prefer a solution that didn’t, um, link you just to one hosting provider. You could move around some open source, but it’s definitely something WordPress has got to look at, isn’t it?

[00:42:53.060] – Jonathan Denwood

Plugins, plugins, security, and better performance on mobile. Do you think I’m on the right track, TJ?

[00:43:00.760] – TJ Robertson

Yeah. And I agree with your previous statement too. There’s a lot that goes into it. There’s plenty of. Very fast websites on WordPress. But, um, I think that is the biggest criticism of mdash, is that to get the plugin sandboxing, you need to be on, on Cloudflare. Um, yeah, it’s— to me, it’s not a big hindrance, but I totally understand why it would be to, to others. The plugin security, to me, is just icing on the cake. Like, that, though, it’s cool that they added that, but like, I’ll take it. I would even take it not hosted on Cloudflare, give up the plugin sandboxing, uh, because it’s really It’s what I— it’s the community I hope evolves around it. We know that Joost de Valk has started to develop on MDash. He’s planning on migrating his website. I don’t know if he’s done that yet. I’m hoping that inspires other developers. And I don’t think we need as many developers as we have on WordPress to make MDash really gain traction. I think it’s so easy now to port plugins or build new plugins that I think a small community could do it. And, and even if, if that doesn’t work out, hopefully it does light a fire on WordPress and kind of—

[00:44:05.320] – Jonathan Denwood

well, it definitely does, doesn’t it? I don’t know. I’m not against M-.

[00:44:11.680] – TJ Robertson

Well, if you, if M- takes off, then you have to start ED Tonic. And that, that sounds like an entirely different product.

[00:44:19.250] – Jonathan Denwood

I’ve got problems with WP Tonic. But I’ve got problems with my mindset is getting better though. Even I’ve got a ton on my mind. But, you know, business is challenging. So it’s how you deal with it, isn’t it? So what do you, because this business about agencies, I really don’t know. I see it as, because there’s all sorts of types of customers with different expectations, different It’s such a diverse, you know, there’s people, you know, I’ve known people that really didn’t want to spend $500 on their website and they were making really great money. They just didn’t want to spend, they just didn’t see the value. They just didn’t want to spend the money. I’ve known other people that really shouldn’t have spent, that spent $5,000, $10,000 on their website and they really shouldn’t have done it. Um, or they got persuaded to do it. Um, am I right? It’s all over the place. Is that— am I right about that?

[00:45:30.450] – TJ Robertson

No. Yeah. Yeah. It’s wild. Yeah. There’s no good place to go to understand what a website should cost. I think the same thing with SEO. A lot of business owners are kind of just at the mercy of whatever agency or consultant they’re talking to. They have no frame of reference to know what they should be paying. Yeah. I think you got to go with reputation at that point. Right.

[00:45:51.210] – Jonathan Denwood

Before I throw it over to Kirk again, um, the other thing I mentioned is I’ve got no evidence for this, but I just want to ask you, do you think, do you think, because this old client, he’s no idiot, he was educated at Princeton, doesn’t mean anything. I know a few people that gone to Princeton that were idiots in my opinion. Uh, um, Um, you know, passing a set of fixed exams when you’ve been coached out your mind doesn’t mean you’re that particularly bright. Uh, um, but that’s my opinion. Um, but, um, he was a pretty sharp dude. He still is. Um, do you think, do you think your, do you think your website’s treated the same when it comes to SEO if you’re spending a fair bit of money with pay for click?

[00:46:45.540] – TJ Robertson

This is a, this is a big question. I think, um, yeah, there are a lot of theories that Google’s going to favor you if you’re spending money on pay-per-click. I don’t think any of those theories are true. I think there could be, um, knock-on benefits to paying for ads. So if, if you’re paying for ads, your brand’s out there, people are seeing you, more people are aware of you. That could lead to more branded search. It could lead to people seeing your name, remembering it, and clicking on it more. And so there’s a lot of ways that SEO could be benefited secondhand from that PPC traffic. But no, I haven’t seen any evidence, and I’ve seen evidence against the fact that the idea that Google is going to favor you because you’re paying them.

[00:47:26.580] – Jonathan Denwood

All right. Over to you, Kurt.

[00:47:29.170] – Kurt von Ahnen

Well, I guess now I’m going to just ask you to give up the skinny, TJ. I mean, what are the tools, man? What, like, where do you, where do you dive in on the tool belt? For things that you use. I mean, I just, yeah, I recently found Claude for some things and I was like, well, this is so much better than Grok, right? And I thought Grok was the bomb diggity. So it’s interesting cuz the tools, they definitely seem to have their own personality, their own features and benefits that work better in one category or another.

[00:47:57.840] – TJ Robertson

Yeah. So I pay for ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude for every member of my team, but we’re really like all in on Claude. Um, that’s 90% of our work is done in Claude. And, and if ChatGPT, they’re about to release this Spud model, which is supposed to like change how we do work. And if they somehow leapfrog Claude again, then, you know, we would switch to ChatGPT. Well, if we thought they were going to stick around long term, like we’re not necessarily loyal in that way, but right now Claude is just shipping and it has just zoomed right past, uh, ChatGPT. It’s completely focused on enterprise. It’s focused on coding and replacing knowledge work, and they’re shipping— they’re shipping more than one product per day right now. It’s insane. Just, just yesterday they announced, um, the Mythos model, which is a huge jump ahead of any other model out right now, especially in coding.

[00:48:49.120] – Jonathan Denwood

Oh, but you’re not allowed to have it, are you?

[00:48:51.460] – TJ Robertson

Right, right.

[00:48:52.510] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s so dangerous.

[00:48:54.190] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, well, yeah, I guess, yeah, maybe we have different opinions there. I, I think I think Anthropic’s doing the right thing. I think, um, yeah, for anyone who doesn’t know, they, they were able to find a lot of cybersecurity exploits, a lot of bugs in existing softwares, including every major browser and operating system. And so instead of release it publicly, they’ve released it to the biggest software companies, or the companies with the biggest software in the world.

[00:49:19.450] – Jonathan Denwood

Is it just me, TJ, because I agree with you that I think they, they are in the lead You know, but I just find Dario, the founder, I just can’t stand him. I just— he makes Harris look— I’d rather have an honest drifter than a self-righteous prick.

[00:49:41.590] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, I’m undecided on him. I like everyone.

[00:49:46.160] – Jonathan Denwood

I love the same opinion, folks, by the way. That’s why TJ is not endorsing my Or Kurt.

[00:49:52.850] – TJ Robertson

No, yeah, I have, I have not. I like the company Anthropic. Dario’s made a few decisions that were questionable, but I, right now I like him. But like, like I was saying before, it’s just my personality. I tend to like everyone. Like I, I loved Sam Altman when I first met Sam Altman. I’m like, this is the guy. I’m so glad he’s in charge. And now I’m not, I’m not a fan of him. So, uh, I’m, I’m the person that gives everyone the benefit of the doubt. I, so yeah, I guess right now I’m team Anthropic, but I could, I could change my mind. But even if I did, Claude, I think, is where it’s at for knowledge work right now.

[00:50:22.810] – Jonathan Denwood

So what other— are there any other products you use?

[00:50:27.140] – TJ Robertson

Um, it’s— I, I would love to talk more about Claude because it’s really like, it’s hard to overstate how embedded Claude is into our systems now, and it’s, it’s really getting even more so. Um, so we have what’s called a Claude project for each one of our clients, and projects exist in every model now. Gem and I just added them yesterday. A project is just a set of documents and instructions that are specific to one project. So ours are divided by clients and we call them brand ambassadors. And so for every client, we maintain a set of documents that has all the information that we might ever need to reference for strategy or content creation. And so usually we have about 12 documents. I think we’re going to start splitting out more. It has instructions on when to reference a document. And as a result, any work we do for that client, we can do in that project. And it knows every single URL on their website and what keyword it’s optimized for. It knows all the details of every product or service. It knows exactly how we work with them, all their competitors, what they do better than those competitors.

[00:51:31.230] – TJ Robertson

And so all that context can just very easily get baked into the content we’re writing. If we’re doing keyword research, we’re doing that in Claude. If we’re doing technical audits, in Claude, and it has access to all that information. And it’s— that’s been a huge game changer. But then what I— we just started doing about a month ago is really going through each of our process— processes and building what are called skills. And skills was an idea that Claude put out, I think, the end of last year, but now has been adopted. So ChatGPT and Gemini have also adopted skills. It’s, uh, a skill is just a markdown file. It’s essentially a prompt template, and then you can have a reference folder of other files that, that that skill can, can reference. And skills can also reference other skills. And so it’s, it’s just a, a way to structure your prompts, or I would like, I’d say SOPs for your agents in a way that can be reusable and, and you can iterate on. So essentially every process we do now, we just go to Claude, We type in the name of the skill, we give it whatever information it needs, and then it, it guides the process from there.

[00:52:37.340] – TJ Robertson

And it might go through multiple steps. It might ask feedback along the way. We have a human in the loop for almost all of our processes. But this, the skill is driving it. And then at the end of each process, after we’ve given it the feedback and we’ve worked through some of these novel problems that haven’t come before, we just say, take everything you learned in this conversation and update the skill. So every time we use that skill, it gets better at doing something. It gets one more edge case bolted on, and it just gets a little bit better at doing that task each time.

[00:53:08.250] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s interesting. I think, I think they’re definitely at the present moment on the edge. Obviously, you’ve got the cost of token and that, but when you’re an operational professional service business, unless you go absolutely berserk, it should be totally affordable.

[00:53:26.210] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, if you pay, if you’re paying, if you go through the API, it can get really expensive. But if you do it within a plan, they, they really subsidize the cost, especially the Max plan gives you 20 times the usage at 10 times the cost. And $200 a month seems like a lot, but with the amount of work we’re able to do, it’s, it’s really a small amount.

[00:53:45.590] – Jonathan Denwood

So what, so I think what To kind of finish off before I throw it over to Curt for the last question is, is that you really think, you know, agencies are still going to be here in the next couple of years and we can only talk about the next couple of years, can we not? Because, you know, we might, we don’t know what’s, we don’t know what’s happening from week to week. It seems very interesting times, doesn’t it? So, but I do agree with you. I also think what is expected from agency, because I think I do agree, I think with a lot of agencies, the clients really have no idea what the agency is doing for them, have they? And I think that’s done on purpose to some degree. But, um, do you think WordPress is still, you know, I think WordPress really has to up its game and it, you know, it really does need to work out how it’s going to implement and work with AI. But, um, do you think it, what’s your own thoughts? Do you think if they do attempt it and there’s so many, or is there so many variables?

[00:55:08.110] – Jonathan Denwood

I’m asking you a ridiculous question really, aren’t I? But do you, you know, do you think it can adapt?

[00:55:15.170] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, I think it will. It looks like it’ll continue to adapt slowly. I don’t think it’ll keep up, but I also don’t think it’s really in trouble in any meaningful way. I think like there’s so many websites on WordPress already. There’s so many developers who have built their agencies on WordPress. Migrating away from a platform is a huge pain. There has to be a real impetus for that. So I do think they’ll lose market share over time. And I think there’s going to be some, I think there’s going to become some really efficient ways to make websites that look great, but aren’t on Lovable with some vibe-coded backend. They actually have like a robust CMS and, and, and are reliable. I don’t know if that’s Mdash, but I, I think it’s coming and I think WordPress is in a tough spot right now. I think it would be. Hard for them to pivot quickly enough to prevent that competition from taking some market share. But yeah, 2 years from now, I think we’ll still have a huge percentage of websites on WordPress.

[00:56:16.010] – Jonathan Denwood

What about the SaaS? Do you know, like Squarespace, Wix, like HubSpot, Zoho CRM, and then in the membership, you got Kajabi, Mighty Networks, um, Circle. How— what do you think? They’re, they’re facing their own problems as well.

[00:56:37.570] – TJ Robertson

Yeah, I mean, they have a big challenge, but they have a big opportunity, and I think some of them are doing it well. I— my dad just put up a website on Hostinger, and he had their AI build his website, and I was like, ” Oh, great. And but I looked at it, I was like, okay, that’s actually really good. I, I had no idea Hostinger could just zap up a website for you, um, and it, and it It looks good, and it works. So yeah, I think, I think we’re going to see some of those platforms do really well if they figure out the right way to incorporate it. And that, and that for a lot of business owners that just don’t want to deal with an agency, and would rather just have the software build the website for them and know that it’s going to more or less work, and they still have a backend. Like that, I think we’ll see some of them fail and some of them just do really well. Yeah.

[00:57:20.780] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, over to you, Kurt.

[00:57:24.070] – Kurt von Ahnen

Well, I get the fun question, TJ. If you had a time machine, TARDIS, something like that, or that show Continuum, uh, if you watch that— that’s my wife’s look on that one now— uh, if you could go back in time to the beginning of your career, what advice would you give yourself?

[00:57:41.530] – TJ Robertson

Just to always be learning. I think I, when I was young at least, I just, I, I wanted to feel like I had the answers, and I didn’t spend nearly enough time in communities, watching YouTube. And now it’s easier than ever, right? There’s just, there’s just so much good content out there, a lot of slop too, but it’s easier than ever to learn. And I, so yeah, still today, I, I at least 2 hours every day, I’m, I’m listening to podcasts, watching videos, or talking to people in communities. I think it’s, it’s so important, especially in digital marketing.

[00:58:12.800] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s cool.

[00:58:16.640] – Kurt von Ahnen

That’s it for me, Jonathan.

[00:58:18.000] – Jonathan Denwood

Yep. So we’re going to wrap it up now. I also want to recommend TJ’s YouTube channel. He’s doing some fantastic video content on there. Very, um, very watchable, TJ. I think you’re doing a fantastic job. So, um, TJ, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and what you’re up to?

[00:58:38.080] – TJ Robertson

Uh, our website is tjrobertson.com, but it’s terrible. I threw it up in a weekend, and we haven’t— we’re actually, we’re rebuilding it right now on M Dash, just as like a— we’re But, um, no, yes, um, but yeah, TikTok is where most people follow me. I’m on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, um, X. You just Google TJ Robertson. I’m finally the number one TJ Robertson on Google, so you’ll see me.

[00:59:03.420] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s fantastic. And Kirk, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you?

[00:59:08.480] – Kurt von Ahnen

I do a lot of hanging out on LinkedIn, so, uh, I’m the only Kirk Von Ahn in there. I’m easy to find. Hit that connection button, and we’ll see what happens.

[00:59:15.870] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s fantastic. And if you want to support the show and you’re listening on your phone, you can on iTunes, Spotify, or whatever your podcasting app is. Why don’t you leave a review for the WP Tonic Show? It really does help the show. If you leave a review, um, I’ll probably see it, and I’ll, um, point it out. Um, but it really does help the show if you could leave a review, and it’s dead easy on your phone. So if you could do that, both Kirk and I would be very appreciative. We will be back next week with another fantastic interview. We’ll see you soon, folks.

[00:59:55.770] – Kurt von Ahnen

Bye.

[00:59:56.760] – TJ Robertson

Hey, thanks for listening. We really do appreciate it.

[00:59:59.980] – Jonathan Denwood

Why not visit the Mastermind Facebook group and keep up with the latest news by clicking wp-tonic.com/newsletter.

[01:00:10.530] – TJ Robertson

We’ll see you next time.

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