We discuss with course marketing expert Billy Bross how you can increase sales of your course

We have a great interview with Billy Bross of Linchpin connected to how you can increase sells you are getting connected to course website. Billy has help a number of successful eLearning entrepreneur get more sells from their courses.

Billy Bross is an MBA turned online marketing consultant. He’s helped businesses in dozens of different niches reach new customers and generate more revenue. Billy’s superpowers are strategy development, copywriting, and email marketing.

#1 – What is based on your experience the major key marketing tool or technique that leads to success connected to membership website?

#2 – So an email list is really important connected to success have you got some key tips connected to how you can build an effective list?

#3 – What are some of the key mistakes you see your clients making consistency before you start working with them?

#4 – You’re not a big fan of Udemy way?

#5 – Do you feel that the learning market is getting more competitive if yes, is it still possible to build a successful membership website from the ground up?

#6 – Have you got any tips and tricks that you like to share with the audience?

This weeks show is Sponsored By Kinsta Hosting

Jonathon: Welcome back folks to the WP Tonic Show. This is episode 412. We’ve got a fantastic guest. I am really looking forward to the interview and that’s basically we got Billy Bross of Lynch Pin Media. Billy would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?

Billy: Yeah, no problem. Yeah, thanks for having me guys. Yeah, Billy Bras. I grew up in Virginia. I currently live in Southern California. And I work with online courses. So I got my start selling beer brewing courses on the Internet of all things. Teaching people how to brew beer at home and taste their beer, analyze it. And then just really found a passion for selling courses online for online marketing. Got me really into copywriting. So that’s what I do full time now. I work with online course creators to help them pour fuel on their fire and grow their business.

Jonathon: Yeah I thought Billy would be an excellent case because he advises actual course entrepreneurs. So he knows all the mistakes, successes. He’s got a lot of knowledge to share in this episode. And I’ve got my great new cohost, Adrian from Groundhogg. Adrian would you like to introduce yourself?

Adrian: For sure, hi everyone. My name is Adrian. I’m the CEO and founder of Groundhogg. We develop marketing automation and sales tools. Or plugins for people who use WordPress and run their businesses on WordPress. You’d like to find more out about that. You can go to Groundhogg with two g’s at the end.io. Or visit us at Groundhogg WP on both Facebook and Twitter to find out more about how we can help you grow your business with marketing automation. And sales tools for WordPress.

Jonathon: That’s great. And before we go into the main discussion, folks, I want to tell you about one of our major sponsors. And that`s Kinsta Hosting. And what is Kinsta? Kinsta only specialize in WordPress hosting. They have been a major sponsor for the WP tonic show for the last two years. It is a fantastic company. We host the WP tonic website with them as well. If you’ve got a membership site, a course site, ecommerce, anything that needs a real quality WordPress hosting environment. Look at Kinsta, they got all the bells and whistles staging site, latest versions of the PHB. Their main thing is they use Google cloud as their backbone. And what you get from Kinsta is a superb interface and some of the based support on the market in 2019. I’ve been blown away with the quality of their support team. And they’re just great people in general. So go over to kinsta.com and find out something more. And tell them that you heard about them on the WP tonic show. Alright Billy let’s get into this.

What are some of the things by working with all these entrepreneurs? Are they some couple key mistakes which a lot of people looking to start a successful course need to know or they make before they come to you? Is there any kind of patterns that you’ve observed?

Billy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Probably the biggest one that I’ve noticed and this is just a big warning for anyone who wants to get into creating online courses. Because what some people actually a lot of people tend to do is I have an idea for an online course and then they sort of go into a cave for a few months. Maybe a lot of months. And they don’t really interact with their audience at all. They have this idea, it’s really more like a, it’s a hypothesis.. My background is in science and so you have this hypothesis that I’m going to create this course and that people are going to buy it. But really that’s the wrong way to go about it. You don’t want to create a product and then go try to find customers for it. What I recommend you do instead is go find your market, find your customers, and identify who they are, what their pain points are, what they want, what they’ve tried before, and really fall in love with your market.

You want to be close to the people in your market. Because you need them in order to grow your business. They’re not just numbers, they’re people. And so learn about them, speak with them, talk to them on the phone. And then create products for your customers. So it’s not finding customers for your products, its finding products for your customers. It’s a subtle shift, but it’s a really, really powerful one. I just see a lot of people making that mistake. And I just hate to see people spend so much time, money and effort creating a 12 module, giant bloated course. And then they come and release it and say, Hey, here it is. And no one wants to buy it because they were just off in their positioning of it.

Jonathon: Yeah. So true. Adrian?

Adrian: I actually resonate with that fact, or actually what you just said a lot, you know, is uh, sell first build later. You know, you, you, you go find out where those people are and then you collect their email addresses or you do ever, which is actually a perfect segue into a lot of people are, uh, at least a lot of the groups that I belong to on Facebook or like his emails to relevant and they’re asking these questions, do I need to build an email list or are there any other tools that I need to be using? What is your take on the reliability or the effectiveness of, of building email lists? And how important is that in a course greater context?

Billy: Huge. It’s huge.

Adrian: So it’s not dead?

Billy: It is not dead. No, it is thriving and it’s better than ever. And I run an email marketing program. I mean, I’m a big believer in email. And the reason is it’s the most personal form of communication online that we have. I mean, you think about before we had the internet and how you communicated with someone across the country. You would write them a handwritten letter? You would send it in the mail. And email is the digital equivalent of that. And there can only be one. It has to be that digital equivalent of sending so on a letter. And so that’s why email has stood the test of time. It’s been around since, I think the early seventies. And if you look at it, it really hasn’t changed that much. They’ve tried to change it.

What were the Google products that came out almost a decade ago? Google wave and they were trying to revolutionize email. Probably don’t even know about it because it totally crashed and burned. But it’s not owned by anyone. I mean the email protocol, it’s publicly available. That’s why we have all these different email software programs like Gmail and outlook and Hotmail, whatever. As opposed to something like Facebook. There’s just one Facebook, there’s just one Instagram. There’s just one Snapchat. So I’ve worked with a lot of very successful online courses, six figures, and seven figure online courses. And the one big thing that they all have in common is that they really know how to work their list.

Adrian: Brilliant. Jonathan?

Jonathon: Yeah, so I totally agree with you Billy, but you know it’s a bit of a chicken and egg. Have you got any insights tips on how to build that list?

Billy: Yeah, so I really liked the phrase, I forget who said it, I think its Steve Blank. It’s one of the lean a startup guys and so he was applying this to the SAS world. Adrian, you might know this one. And he said as do things that don’t scale. And I think that’s a great way to start building your email list. A lot of people start the other way. They try to automate it so much and I’ll start running Facebook ads and everything. But I think you got to get out there and take a really organic approach and just talk to people in your market. The way that I did that at first with my home brewing website, I was going to homeroom forums. I was in Facebook groups and I would literally ask people. I would say I would first deliver value and I would maybe have a little chat with them. See what problems they were dealing with. See if I could give them some advice. And then say, Hey, I have this, this awesome beer brewing newsletter.

Can I add you to it? And they’d be like, sure, no problem. Absolutely. So that’s where I would start because that’s going to give you the best feedback on what resonates with people. And then from there you can start to automate. So then you can start to create your lead magnet and your funnel and start to drive traffic to a landing page. Things like that. But my biggest tip is to do things that don’t scale at first.

Adrian: I actually was just going to about to say, you know that as a developer of software, which allows you to automate a lot of stuff. One of the first things we tell people who actually onboard with our software is don’t focus on automating everything right now. All at once. Focus on your deliverables and how you can create value. And then as you move forward, you’ll be able to step in and start automating some of your systems and processes. But just starting with whatever you’ve got, even if you have to manually log in somewhere and start posting on forums, will create so much more value in the long-term. And in the short term then spending significant amount of times on automating processes that nobody is currently in.

You have to have the demand for it before you actually go and create it. So if you have to create that demand manually, then that’s exactly what you have to go do.

Billy: Exactly. Yeah. I think it’s kind of a crude phrase, but it makes sense. You don’t want to polish a turd.

Jonathon: Okay the next question. So the 800 pound gorilla in the course market is Udemy. So what are your thoughts about Udemy? And how if you were building a course, would you use it in any shape or form?

Billy: It plays a role and it’s been a great thing for a lot of people. Overall. I’m not a huge fan. It’s not like for people who don’t know, it’s an online course marketplace. So it’s sort of like the amazon.com of online courses. And I just don’t think it’s very friendly towards the online course creator. Now if you don’t want to do online courses full time, if it’s just sort of a side thing you want to do for fun. Or maybe just a little bit of a additional revenue, then go for it.

But if it’s your main thing, then I don’t recommend really investing heavily in Udemy. And the reason is for one, they discount your courses like crazy. So I was working with a client and he has courses on machine learning. So computers that can learn things really quickly and improve themselves. And this is sort of like the precursor to artificial intelligence. A lot of things that are coming down the road and yeah, there’s some scary stuff there, but there’s far more positive things that can come from this, like self-driving cars. A lot of applications in medicine. So it’s a really important field and there are not a whole lot of people teaching it. And he is, he’s one of the best. And he was selling a course on Udemy for I believe it was for $100.00. And then they discounted it to $10 and he had no say in that whatsoever.

And then he was getting something like 10% of that. So maybe just a buck for every course that was sold. And I think it just really undervalues it. And so we helped him get over to a different platform, his own platform, raise the price and charge what he was worth. So I think that’s the way to do it. I think that you should build on your platform. The way that you could factor into this is if you’re not sure if you want to do this or not online courses. Or if you’re not really sure about your idea and you want to validate it really quickly. They do have a built in audience. So that’s the huge benefit of them. So you could get something out there, get feedback from the market. Yes or no, do they like it or not? But once you get that feedback, then I would start to put together your escape plan and do something on your own platform.

Jonathon: Yeah. If we can get you started spot on there, because you know, the main thing they’ve got is they’ve got an audience. Haven’t they? So if you want to quantify, if you hadn’t built up that email lists. And you want to just try a small course just to see if there was an audience and to get feedback. It might be something to consider. Would you agree with that?

Billy: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It can be a great place to do market testing. But again, that would begin with the end in mind though.

Jonathon: Yeah. You got to actually be thinking of your exit almost at the start of your engagement.

Billy: Well another thing too is you’ve got to think about your brand. And if you’re surrounded, if your course, if your goal is to sell a premium course one day. And your brand is showing up on Udemy surrounded by all these other courses that you know with a red lines slash through. This kind of by 90% selling for three to five bucks that brings down the value of your brand too. So that that’s a consideration.

Jonathon: Yeah. You have got a point thee. It is a little bit tricky. We are going to go for our break. We’ll be back. We’d be discussing more with Billy, this fascinating world of course entrepreneurship. We’d be back in a few moments’ folks.

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14:13 Jonathon: We’re coming back. Adrian over to you.

Adrian: I just actually before I asked the next question, I wanted to tack onto the end of the Udemy conversation. What I’ve noticed, I’m not personally a course creator, but I have witnessed other course creators. If they have a several tiers of courses, they have kind of their mid-tier and their height ticket sales courses. Sometimes what they do is they take their most bottom tier course and they’ll put that on Lynda or Udemy. What are your thoughts on selling your low ticket offer on those platforms had been trying to move them over to your other platform where your high tickets are?

Billy: You can do that. People have certainly done that successfully. The challenge with that is that you don’t get the email list. And that’s something I didn’t mention before, but it’s a huge, huge drawback of Udemy. Is that you don’t get that customer lists, they keep that. And there are some tactics, there’s some ways you can do that and try to move people over to your own site. But, so that’s a big drawback of it. But yeah, if you’re going to do it, if you’re going to have courses on Udemy and also your own platform, I think that’s a smart strategy. Have your lower tier ones and then make it clear that this is the lower tier and if you want the premium stuff, you got to come to main platform.

Adrian: Thank you for clarifying for that. And now an actual question. So a lot of people feel that the course market is getting very saturated. There are lots of people every day entering into the course market. And we have these behemoths, Udemy and Lynda. So what does strategy that course creators can use to differentiate themselves from the noise? And really make their brand and their content stand out?

Billy: Yeah, that’s a great question. So you think about what advantage you do have then. Because an example is if you’re going to go up against Wal-Mart, you’re in retail, you’re not going to beat them by being the low priced option. Like there’s just no way to beat Wal-Mart on that battlefield. And so you don’t want to compete against Udemy on their battlefield. So what do they have that’s a drawback? Well, it’s not very personal, not very human. And so that’s a big thing that I tell my clients is let your personality shines through. What is unique about your business? Well, you are, and people want to do business.

Your students, they want to do business with a person. I mean, that’s why influencers are so popular these days. And brands are pouring so much money into influencers because people would rather buy from an influencer or through an influencer versus through a brand versus they want to buy from tide.

They want to buy from the influencer who uses tide on their clothes. So if you’re a course creator, if you’re trying to hide behind a company name or a brand name for yourself or a logo or something. I think you really handicapping yourself. And so this even plays into the email discussion to the types of emails that I recommend people send in that I teach are very personality driven. So we’re sharing little quirks about ourselves. We’re sharing our vulnerabilities and things that we like our pets, our history telling our story. And that gives you really a, an unfair advantage against the big bookie myths like the Lynda’s and Udemy.

Adrian: Thank you. Just a follow up question to that. Is it easy to scale when you’re that involved in the business or what are some tips that you have for when you’re trying to scale with that personality? If it’s so focused on you or is there strategies, ways to make that as you scale up and you can hire employees or other ways to keep that personality in it?

Billy: Well you look at some of the bigger ones out there, some of the larger online courses. Take someone like Stu McLaren. You know who he is?

Adrian: I’m not familiar.

Billy: He is from your neck of the woods actually, I think he’s from Toronto, a tribe, he teaches membership sites. And so that’s a significant size, seven, maybe eight bigger company. But he’s still the personality behind it. He’s still the voice behind it. And I think that’s really important. I think that’s one of the last things that you delegate or you outsource if you ever do.

So if you’re looking at scaling and the objection or the question that you raised is how you do scale that when you’re the face of the business? Because it just becomes too time consuming. I think there are a lot of lower level things that you can outsource and delegate before handing that over to someone else or trying to automate that more. Like for me, I got a personal assistant, an executive assistant about almost a year ago now. And it just freed up so much time. So there’s a lot of low hanging fruit like that that you can automate before going that other direction. Outsourcing your voice, the personality.

Adrian: Brilliant. Thank you Jonathan.

Jonathon: Well, we’re in the second half of 2019. Billy, I don’t know where the first half went. It just seemed to go puff. How do you see the course market this year? Do you think there is still a lot more growth or is it planned out? And are there any trends that you observed that you’re working with that you like to share with my audience?

Billy: Yeah. So the courses have to get better. So when this thing first started and online courses started taking off in popularity. You had a lot of people just kind of phoning it in just because it was so easy to make an online course. I mean, I remember one. There it was of course I was doing pretty well financially. And the course was really just a zip file that they would email to their students. They would download to the computer and it was pretty poor user experience. And you look at a course creation or course completion rates and they’re really dismal. There are around 3%. So it’s survival of the fittest. So the really good online courses, the ones that provide the best user experience, the ones that get students the best results. The cream always rises to the top.

And so you do, if you’re getting into this, really have to step up your game. And what we’re seeing is a lot more involvement from the teachers in the course, in a live environment. When I say live, I mean not IRL, not in real life. Like, like doing calls, zoom, and things like that. More like a traditional school. You don’t just hand someone the textbook and then say, okay, see you at the end of the semester. You have the teacher teach to the textbook. So it’s not just, hey, welcome to my online course, good luck. We’re seeing a lot more live coaching calls and interactions, Facebook groups and things like that to ensure that the students are completing the course for one. And two get in the results that were promised in the course.

Jonathon: Yeah, thanks for that. So I have a few questions. Fundamentally trying to find the right word. They are becoming micro educational establishment in the way. Virtual communities’ kind of unofficial institute. I’m struggling for the right words. Is that making any sense at all Billy?

Billy: I think I see where you’re going. Yeah. So I’m a big believer in online courses for the future of education. And I call them independent course creators or Indi course creators. These experts who build on their own platform and they’re building these online schools, institutions. It is kind of like an independent record label. You have these indie artists. And so I think that there’s a big opportunity for them as opposed to traditional education, which is not doing so well right now. And I think that there’s always going to be a place for that. Now, if you want to become a doctor, you’re not going to take an online course. You got to go to university. But for these independent course creators, I mean with the machine learning guy.

So his students can say, they can go through the course and say, hey, this was great, but you know, this new technology just came out. Can you put something together on this? And he can have that the next day. He can have a new lesson in their course area the very next day. And now they’re moving ahead. They’re getting better, they’re getting smarter, they’re getting faster at doing is putting out better products. Whereas a traditional university, I mean, they are not going to iterate that quickly. How long is it going to take them to update their curriculum? So they just can’t keep up. And that’s why I’m so bullish on online courses.

Jonathon: That’s fantastic. Over to you Adrian.

Adrian: So we were talking about Udemy and Lynda and those are some of the platforms that people can go to host their first online course. But once they have a course they have their market and they know the content they want to produce. Where do they go? What’s the technology that they use in order to be able to share that? What tech stack would you recommend for people to start hosting their courses and being able to share those with the world?

Billy: So if they’re hosted on Udemy or Lynda for their online course side of things. For the fulfillment side?

Adrian: No, I mean, so what do you, for example, you use for your clients to actually like share their courses? Is it teachable? Is it another site? Is it WordPress? What is it that you use to share courses with the world?

Billy: So if you’re talking about where the actual lessons are hosted and all that. There’s a number of, if we’re talking about platforms that you own. So if it’s not Lynda or Udemy, there are a number of them. So I’m a big fan of teachable. I got involved with them back in the day when they were called Fedora originally. They’re not teachable and it’s a great piece of software. And they’re not a marketplace, so you’re not gonna see any courses advertised on their homepage or anything. They’re just software. Thinkific is another one. LearnDash is another one, I believe that’s a WordPress plugin. It is something kind of custom on WordPress and that’s not a bad way to go either. So there’s a bunch of them these days.

And so that’s on the fulfillment side, that’s delivering the course. And then you have these other pieces of software that you need. Like I recommend a landing page builder. Because capturing email addresses is so important. So something like lead pages or Insta page or click funnels, you have your email software itself. So convert kit, there’s a number of these. Convert kit, AWeber, Drip. I’m a big fan of Ontraport. So that would be a really good stack too. So you have the online course delivery might be something like Teachable or Thinkific. You have your email software, it might be something like Drip or Ontraport. And then you have a landing page builder. Maybe something like lead pages.

Adrian: Brilliant. So there you go. That’s the tech stack for anybody who’s interested. Jonathan.

Jonathon: Well, it’s really interesting as you went through that. Because you’ve got these different elements. Or you got something like Kajabi where they say they in one platform, they provide all these separate tools or click funnel to some extent. But then you’ve got the whole world of WordPress and the integration. The reason why I like WordPress is that you can take the best of the WordPress ecosystem. The best affiliate plugin, the best landing page builder. And I honestly believe Billy now in 2019, you can build something as powerful as you can get with click funnel or Kajabi. But I still have the best of breed, so there is no element in that stack that’s not being looked at consistently. And made sure that it is the best of breed. So we’ve covered a lot of territory.

So if you were starting out building a course, it was your first course, what size would it be? And what would be your first steps in investigating what that initial course should be about? How would you get the blueprint to build that for schools and how big would that course be?

Billy: Good question. So I’m a big believer in doing a lot of research upfront. When I left my full time job. So I got my MBA and I was working in the renewable energy industry for about seven years. And then I went to sell online courses thinking that my business degree would really, really help with that. But it turns out it doesn’t really lend itself to selling beer brewing courses on the internet. So I had to learn how to sell things online. And what I learned was copywriting. I studied under a really great copywriting mentor for a year. And he taught me that 80% of copywriting is research. And so that’s how I would start. I would pick a field but then just go listen, go listen and go talk to people. So go on Twitter, go into Facebook groups, go into forums and see what people are struggling with.

And then I would start to collect those email addresses and start to frequently email them, delivering content, seeing what resonates. And then once you do that, you should get an idea of the common pain points there and what people are struggling with. And then a key thing is with online courses, you don’t want to provide information, you want to provide transformation. So you want to look into what, think about what the end outcome is? What do those people want at the end of the day? Because no one buys a hammer because they want a hammer, they buy a hammer because they want to put a nail in the wall and then hang a picture on it. That they can look at when they walk by it. So I would look at what that end outcome is and then put together for the four major milestones, four to eight major milestones that they need to get to in order to get to that end outcome.

And then what I would do is, I’ll tell you what I wouldn’t do. I wouldn’t go into the cave and work on and have a fancy studio and work on prerecording videos and all that. I would take it through live. I would have a cohort go through four to eight week course, maybe a little bit longer if it’s a more involved topic. And to do it really organically. I would have a Beta, pre-sell it upfront isn’t going to be the best deal, the lowest price it’s ever going to be. And they’re going to get the most attention are ever going to get. And then bring them through it.

But don’t try to plan it too much, make it really organic, get feedback and then iterate on the fly. So if you’re doing, if you’re in week two and people tell you and something comes up, a question comes up, you might change or week three because of that. So be very open minded about it.

Jonathon: That is a fantastic answer. Thanks so much. I hope Billy is going to stay on with us. We’re gonna wrap up the podcast part of the show folks. But Billy has agreed to stay on. Hopefully he is going to. And we were asking him some more questions. And I have got a question about YouTube. And the discussion goes on. And if you want to see our interviews and our other content the quickest. It’s best to subscribe to WP Tonic YouTube channel. Because we got new materials on it. And it’s the quickest platform where we publish the interviews on the show on our YouTube channel. Also, if you really want to support the show, go to iTunes and give us a review. It really does help the show a tremendous amount. How can people find out more about you? What you are up to? And basically your great thoughts?

Billy: Well the website is linchpin.media. It’s one of those new fancy ones without dot com. And then I’m very active on Facebook. So if you’re on Facebook. Go ahead and friend me. Billy Bross, B. R. O. S. S. And then I also have a great free Facebook group called the 20 minute email challenge. So you can type that into the Facebook search bar and it’ll come up. And we have a cool challenge for email marketing. And I talk a lot about copy-writing and marketing strategy for online courses.

Jonathon: I’ll join that myself. Adrian, how can people find out more about you and your company, what you’re up to?

Adrian: I think I’m going to go join that challenge as well. And I think it’ll be interesting as email marketing is my business. Speaking of which, if you’re looking to collect email addresses and send those emails that are ever so important, as Billy has mentioned several times throughout this show. You can use the Groundhogg marketing automation plugin for WordPress to do exactly that. If you’re looking for more information on that, you can go to Groundhogg with two g`s at groundhogg.io or you can reach out to us on Facebook where we are also extremely active at Groundhogg WP on both Facebook and Twitter.

Jonathon: That’s great. And if you want to find out more about WP Tonic. Go to the WP Tonic website. We got a load of posts about a lot of subjects concerning if you are interested in becoming an eLearning entrepreneur and you want to know about video, sound and equipment. The topics are endless on the WP Tonic website. We’ll see you next week where we have another fantastic guest like Billy. Hopefully giving your insight about how to make your course a true success. And get the lifestyle that you’re looking for. We will see you next week folks. Bye

About Billy

To the outside world, it didn’t make any sense why I was leaving my career.

I had an MBA and a thriving career as a consultant in the energy industry.

I was working with important clients like the Department of Energy, Native American tribes, and Fortune 500 companies.

I led the financial modeling for industrial-scale, cutting-edge energy projects. Think solar power, wind power, and that sort of thing.

It was an interesting and rewarding career, but deep down, I was looking for something more. I wanted to do something I was passionate about. Something of my own.

So I did.

After I came home from those long days in the office, I started a blog around a fun hobby of mine: brewing beer at home. To my surprise, beer drinkers from all over the world began to discover it. The web traffic grew and grew.

Before I knew it, I had built one of the top beer blogs in the internet.

My readers particularly loved my home-brewing tips.

So, one day, I decided to try something crazy and sell an online course.

People actually bought it! Yes, they actually paid me money over the internet for something I created. And they loved


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