With Special Guest Spencer Forman Founder & CEO of Both WPLaunchify & LaunchFlows
In this episode, we’ll speak with Spencer Forman from WPLaunchify.com about how WordPress has evolved into the most popular and powerful CMS platform in the world…for those who know the secrets of which plugins and themes to stack together for the desired use case.
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Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back folks to the WP tonic interview show. This is episode 619. We’ve got a real friend from the show. A regular member of the WP tonic Friday panel show. We’ve got Spencer Forman. Spencer is the founder and CEO WPlaunchify and also the great plugin launch flows. That’s a sponsor of the show. We’re going to be talking about the secrets of the WordPress stack. That sounds interesting, but, I’m going to let my co-host, I’m going to quickly let Spencer introduce himself very quickly. And then we’re going to go into this interview. So first of all, Stephen, Stephen, you have returned from doing a lot of work. Would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Steven Sauder: Yeah. Steven Sauder, it’s good to be back, from zip fish.io was on a two-week family vacation. So trying to do work and vacation at the same time was challenging. So it’s good to be back home and in the saddle, so to speak.
Jonathan Denwood: It’s all relaxing there back at work init?
Steven Sauder: Almost.
Jonathan Denwood: Obviously the only Spencer Forman. Can you- Forman- I don’t know-
Spencer Forman: It’s close enough I just want to say I’m glad to finally meet you in person. Jonathan. I’ve heard a lot about you and Steven as well. It’s nice to meet you and finally be on the show. So after all these years.
Jonathan Denwood: You’ve been on here multiple times, what the hell are you talking about?
Spencer Forman: I’m goofing on you, by the way, I want to just call out to our good friend, Heather Renzi because I think this is going to be my new hello, Spencer, Steven may not have seen that show, but Heather made it a dramatic and a very powerful impression on the audience last week with her
Jonathan Denwood: She always makes the impression of me [Inaudible02:22] we descended into mayhem before we even start, before we go into the main part of the interview, I want to talk about one of our major sponsors that’s Castos. If you’re looking to get into podcasts, and you really should do is just a great way of building your own personal brand and also meeting really interesting people. Or you’ve got clients that are interested in getting into podcasting you really want to look at Castos. They got a flat rate, pricing structure. So you’re not penalized by success. It’s really very cheap and reasonable what they are asking. They are WordPress people, Matt Maderious, the great podcaster himself from the Matt report, is the head of sales and customer experience. So they’re embedded in the WordPress community. really just go over to their website. You’ll find all the links all over the WP tonic website, go and have a look, what they go to offer. If you do decide to buy for yourself or for clients, please tell them that you heard about them on the WP tonic website. It really helps them and us.
So Spencer where to begin? You got this title, the secrets of the WordPress stack, and obviously, you got your, consultancy, business WPlaunchify. Tell us more Spencer.
Spencer Forman: Well, to not sound too mysterious or provocative, let me set this up by saying- I know, right. Have you met me? It’d be fun. let me start out by saying that we all owe a debt of gratitude to the existence of WordPress. And of course, you know, Matt, single-handedly bringing this about through his own efforts in the early days has created what is, I think singularly now the only platform of this magnitude, I mean really 40, 50% of all CMS market where it’s an open-source environment. I mean, if you think about it, there’s really nothing else. There was Linux at one time, but I don’t think with the exception of maybe Magento, but I think Magento is now sort of fizzled away in some respects.
There was never really anything or isn’t anything today that compares with an organic granola open-source community that has built something that essentially powering nearly half of the internet as far as the underlying, you know, framework, and so forth. So if we start with that premise, the thing that we’ve all been discussing is that it fosters an environment where virtually anybody can rise to be a superstar and you can create a product from nowhere. And we’ve seen some real call-out products in the last year. And in fact, I’ll just pick on one because there are others that I’ve said a million times, but for example, fluent CRM, Shah Jahan, Joel, and his team came out of the blue. Maybe they heard us talking about it and otherwise, but like coming up with a plugin-based CRM, which was the only real plugin in the space other than there’s Groundhog and Adrian Toby, of course. And then there was one that was called something that got absorbed by and killed. It was called no BS, zero BS absorbed by automatic.
Jonathan Denwood: A bizarre name.
Steven Sauder: I don’t know if it will ever rise to the surface, but my feeling is it’s dead and buried and they hid the remains. So what you’ve got as a scenario where these plugins can come out of nowhere, solve a problem. And now you’ve got an audience in the tens or hundreds of millions. I don’t really, I don’t think it’s hundreds, but like tens or maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, some plugins have 5,10 million users like a WooCommerce. And I think what’s so exciting about that is how accessible all the code is, how their relationships are, but here’s the corollary to that. Or I would say here’s the flip side of that. We’ve got a scenario where the hippie granola, likeability to get anything, anytime you want gives people those two big problems, shiny ball syndrome. Or building Frankenstein, monsters. And wrapped around. That is a sort of Seesaw of balancing interests. On the one hand is automatically funded by VCs who want to commercialize the thing that’s been created for their reasons of course.
On the other side, are all of us makers who want to commercialize our products. And now we’ve got this consolidation of the customer saying, this is all the too confusing gang like 265,000 choices is not what happens when I go over to Shopify or Wix or Weebly or Squarespace or even click funnels. And so the secret of the WordPress stack, which is where my mission has been focused for the last year, but it’s grown out of 15 plus years is how to show people starting for free. That WordPress really is a platform. And it really has a couple of key plugins that will be the foundation of anybody’s solution. And then when you’re established with that, having an association, which is something else I’m working on of the makers who can come up into the organization, just like with these little, little do-dads here. Before these USB sticks existed, there were 80 million ways to connect electronics. Now, all the makers of electronics said, we’re going to agree to use this standard. And now all of our stuff works together.
So my focus this year and going forward is going to be on helping to educate people for free, which plugins they need to have an instant satisfaction solution on the most powerful platform that they will own and control for themselves or their clients, but that they will also be able to get the unified agreement of opinion by the makers who will be organizing under something that I’m going to be announcing soon I hope. to act as an association that counterbalances or offers at least an alternative to what may be automatic is saying. this is not designed to say there’s anything wrong with automatic and [Inaudible 08:30] That’s awesome. And there’ll be working with, you know, the hosts and the other partners they have, but us, yeah, yours don’t necessarily have to have that as our only option.
We create our own content. We create our own products. We can work together and we can do it for them. The benevolent benefit of all of the end-users. Cause let’s be honest, all three of us work in the space and most of the listeners work in the space of satisfying customers. How much time had any of us spent in the last year, two years, five years explaining why there are seven different choices of page builders or why there are 10 different problems with things colliding. And so that’s where the secret lies, the secret lies. And we are on the cusp of a benevolent, peaceful, beneficial revolution for everybody in WordPress, where it evolves from a sort of random granola party into something that is very, very simple to understand, even for somebody coming in from the outside world.
Jonathan Denwood: Thanks for that over to you, Stephen.
Steven Sauder: Great commentary Jonathan.
Spencer Forman: Glad you just gave us the secret to cold fusion over to you Steven.
Jonathan Denwood: You never like what I’ve got to say anyway so I probably just throw it over to Steven.
Spencer Forman: This is like having your ex-wife on the show.
Steven Sauder: Well, what I think would be helpful is a definition of the term you use. You said granola, what do you mean by granola?
Spencer Forman: Well, in other words, we’ve got a community and I was a participant of this when I first started in WordPress, it was around 2006, I think right near the beginning, I think maybe officially was forked around 2004 or five, but like in six was when it was like an actual, you could use it. There was like a handful of us sitting around a campfire, as I recall. I mean, legitimately it was in the tens or hundreds, maybe low thousands. So it was like somebody had a, like a grateful, dead listening party in their backyard and said, bring something to eat and drink. And that attitude has been the basis in my opinion of the appeal of WordPress. And it’s been something that up until recently was carried out very well by automatic and Matt and so forth. But I think even everybody, this isn’t poking anything in anybody, even the most logical person realizes you can’t have a backyard picnic with 50% of the internet, all bringing random things to the party. It just doesn’t work anymore. That’s my point.
You know, at some point we all have to accept and look at the money being thrown around this year. There are real companies with real money having real financial incentives to organize and consolidate and team up and do things with this because it’s no longer a picnic or a, hey man, that sounds good I’ll trade you this thing for that thing. And okay.
Jonathan Denwood: I do agree with you because at the present moment, the situation, obviously the founder of the joint founder, I think Little’s, contribution to the starts of WordPress have been diminished. but at the present moment, it is automatic and the hosting companies, also seem to have a lot of influence behind the scenes and it’s the plugin, it’s the service side and the plugin producers to me that have been one of the main contributors to the building and the popularity of WordPress, not the hosting providers. What’s your comment, about that? And then we can go from our break Spencer.
Spencer Forman: Yeah, I mean, see, here’s the thing. I also want to set the tone of this conversation because while I’m willing to be an often am on the WP tonic show provocative and so forth and poking my thumb at other people who were poking this direction.
Jonathan Denwood: That is the purpose of the Friday show.
Spencer Forman: But this is not in that tone. Okay. And here’s why this is important I feel to clarify. We are all blessed for the benefit of what has developed over time and it’s undeniable like peanut butter and chocolate, they go together and you couldn’t have had WordPress forking and working without the contribution of both the people on the automatic side and Matt, as well as all the makers. This is the thing that has worked. This magic has worked, and I’ve been lucky to be here and witnessed it and have my own flavor of involvement. However, I don’t think that that’s the conversation because there is more than enough to go around. Okay.
The issue that we’re talking about is that as we sit here today, there’s, let’s call it a reasonable level of objective frustration or objective potential. If you’ve got a company working in the way they are with the venture side of things, we don’t have to say it’s good, bad otherwise, but they’ve got their agenda they got their resources. What I am saying is we don’t have to beg their permission or ask for their blessing to go ahead and use the same Orban star stuff to achieve our own goals. And I have no interest in being political or saying good, bad, or otherwise, but I am interested in saying, wouldn’t it benefit the end-users on both sides If there was the clarity of purpose of what WordPress really is and does because somebody finally organized it amongst the makers themselves? Because even automatic would benefit in that regard. Wouldn’t it? I mean,
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah you a not political, let’s find the folder or cease and desists letters
Spencer Forman: This is why I bring this up, Jonathan
Jonathan Denwood: [Inaudible]
Spencer Forman: Here’s where I’ll bring the rubber to the road. Okay. In the past, we all know the stories of when a particular maker or a particular business decided to challenge the status quo of the top-down. Okay. They were objectively squashed or penalized or disappeared. It was very much like a dramatic, you know, like this pranas episode, think of it this way. The reality of what we have now is such that those of us who make stuff can go about our business without offending or pointing fingers or comparing badly to the king or the boss because it’s irrelevant now. in other words, in a small community with a small market where nobody knows how to monetize, that’s one thing there’s plenty to go around. The issue though is objectively by being respectful, those of us on the maker side, who will organize around this particular thing will actually afford each other protection and will afford it.
Jonathan Denwood: I have no plans to go into my comments in this interview. So as far we’re going to go for our break when we come back we’d be delving in this world of what the new possibilities for WordPress are, which I’m very excited about we’ll be back in a few moments.
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Jonathan Denwood: We’re Coming back had a great initial discussion with uncle Spencer. so, Spencer, I think we’re not seeing the best days of WordPress. Yeah, I think [Interposed talking17:37] What do you think is coming in the next few years for the whole WordPress community?
Spencer Forman: Well let’s spin this in the positive way that I would like it to be because I know it comes off as odd and you and I have fun, we joke about the topic, but so let’s assume we start with the premise and we’ll put that baby to bed that thus far, there has been a less than ideal execution on explaining to the outside world what WordPress is. Okay. Let’s just say that’s the case. So now we have a choice, the choice of going forward isn’t about complaining about what the other side was doing. The choice is what are we going to do about it now? And so some of the exciting developments that I myself feel are part of the secrets of the stack is number one, let’s talk about the layer of the page builders versus Gutenberg. Number two, let’s talk about hosting number three, let’s talk about the business model of like makers collaborating together in a way that is cooperative as if they were working for one platform. Okay.
So starting, you know, starting with the first premise, or let’s just talk about it, you know, as a mixture, when somebody comes into WordPress, it’s not always clear to them what they’re supposed to do, right? There are very few platforms like you don’t go to Shopify or Squarespace or Wix or Weebly, and then you first have to figure out what’s the.converse.org or figure out what you mean the host is not included or you figure out like, you mean, I don’t get just one of each feature I have. So when you’re talking about the experience for people who are coming from other competitive spaces, WordPress has so much, that can be an improvement. And it means not that like we have to complain or beg them to do it, but rather we can organize ourselves as the makers into something that avoids the conflict between various plugin authors or various hosting authors.
Yet at the same time, let’s be honest. When you go to the store and look at soda pop there are 47 different flavors of Cola, right? It’s not like there’s just one of each. It’s just, they figured out where to put them on the shelf so that the buyers get what they want. And yet the other companies making it still make money. And so from the standpoint of like hosting, I undeniably feel there will always be room for more and more hosts, but like Steven can attribute, you’re going to need to niche down or niche in or attribute it to something specific as an end result. Whereas in the past it might’ve been good enough to just say generic hosting. Right. when it comes to plugin authors-
Jonathan Denwood: I just love how you mentioned Steven, but not my –
Spencer Forman: I don’t know, you know, because Steven and I spoke at length about zip fish and other things. And, and it’s not, I think any surprise, I don’t want to speak for Steven, but like, there are things that are commodities and things that also are niches and there’s enough of a community using WordPress that a company can do extremely well with a very small niche because it’s a large pool of potential. Right. So
Jonathan Denwood: I totally agree with you, Steven, have you got a question.
Steven Sauder: A question or statement, I don’t know, let’s see where this gets.
Jonathan Denwood: I must be growing on you my influence is growing on you.
Steven Sauder: I think what you’re saying Spencer is really interesting about how, when somebody approaches WordPress, like how, how do they approach it? And then the confusion that obviously happens as they’re getting into it. Do you think that most people are coming to WordPress from a third-party source? Let’s say like an LMS sort of system like I’m Googling LMS stuff in some ways like, oh, learn dash is the best. And so I go learn, I, you know, I start going down that route and find out all these things about what WordPress is and what I need to do to get it working. And like, I mean, maybe I’m gleaming CRM, and I like stumbled across, fluent CRM. Or do you think people are starting more from the, I want WordPress to do X, Y, and Z. And then finding those plugins, like somebody who just doesn’t know WordPress that well, how are they getting into it, and what direction they come in from?
Spencer Forman: We found two channels. Okay. So there’s top-down, bottom-up, let’s start with the bottom up. Bottom-up, are those who come into the WordPress community, who are what I would refer to mostly as tinkerers or implementers or designers who have something in the WordPress space that drew them to it. It could be a theme. It could be a plugin, it could be a feature. And in doing so, they became much as I can speak for myself, maybe you guys, became enamored with all my, this is the best Lego kit of all time. I can literally make my livelihood by becoming a specialist in doing this, that, or the other. But as a result of being exposed to the underbelly of WordPress and it’s granola picnic, hey man let’s trade our stuff for free trading cards mentality. There is a mindset on the pricing that is a little distorted, right?
You know, this plugin does everything I need and my clients need for their entire seven-figure business. And you want to ask $80 for that? How dare you? Okay. Then there’s the top-down crowd, which comes from your CRMs in particular. I’m coming from Salesforce or infusion soft, or one of those, Salesforce or infusion soft or one of those. Salesforce or Infusion soft used to like, first of all, they’re enterprise products, but infusion soft used to charge $2,500 just for the privilege of being able to get a demo of their product. And those days are long gone. Salesforce can still get away with it. However, we’re finding a huge influx of enterprise level customers who are realizing that they spend a half, a million dollars on Drupal and some CRM last year when they could have done that for a few thousand dollars and owned and control in WordPress.
Now, what that means to us in the maker space, there are those who will want a product that goes to the tinkering crowd. It’s like launch flows would fit in that both directions, but that would fit in the price model and the lifetime deal and so forth. And that’s an attractive thing because people get excited and they become fanboys. Then the top-down people could care less. What is under the hood of their solution They need the outcome, they need service level agreements. They need professional-level support. And they are shocked if you don’t tell them that it has five figures in the price. And so what I’m suggesting is each maker can make a decision whether they want to go down or up, and that’s not a benefit or curse, and you’ll have a larger volume, but more may be hands-on and support versus a smaller volume, but higher income, but also more responsibility.
And I feel that’s, you know, with our research and the data, we’re collecting a WPlaunchify that’s proving itself out and a good way for the makers. Here’s why the same stack of plugins is working to satisfy both ends of the market, which is an extraordinary thing. If you think about it, because like I’m not picking on Mark Benioff, he’s a billionaire. He could do whatever he wants, but Salesforce is a software on the interface or its useful features and stuff is not remarkable. I mean, it’s super powerful, but it’s not remarkable. And they’ve not had to change it in many iterations because they’re locking in all these enterprises. When you look at the software on WordPress, it’s pretty fricking remarkable. I mean, both from the interface and the power and the fact that it runs on a tiny little lamp server and so forth. So I think that’s the most exciting thing is that like an iPhone, we’ve got an iPhone that does more than the whole Apollo space program computers combined. Right. That’s kind of what I’m saying.
Jonathan Denwood: I wanted to put one final question before we wrap up the podcast, the show you’re okay for staying there another 15 minutes for bonus content, Spencer?
Spencer Forman: Bonus!
Jonathan Denwood: Bonus alright, but let’s go for our final question. it’s a kind of follow-through question to what you’ve just started, you know, WP tonic is in the E-learning area that’s where I planted my flag e-learning. We have, we have SAS competitors, we have Kajabi, learnable, teachable, and a host of other ones, enterprise-level, education, you know, a host of SAS competitors. I think if WordPress goes the right way, the way that we hope, I think it’s going to get increasingly hard for the SAS competitors to compete and really have a kind of real sane business module or argument against WordPress. What do you think?
Jonathan Denwood: Well I think you do bring up a good point, which is, first of all, there’s always an evolution of what’s popular? So even if, even if a company does everything right, they could fade out of public favor or they could just still make money and fade out of public view. For example-
Jonathan Denwood: can I just quickly interrupt I apologize. I think that in some ways I think the SAS in e-learning has grown because of the weaknesses of WordPress, if those weaknesses are slightly removed, which we hope and improve, which looks like it can do, I think they’re going to increasingly have a tough time. Sorry.
Steven Sauder: Well, I mean, if you look at how the business model is for SAS e-learning, it’s not about the interface or the features. It’s really about the fact that they’re going to promote and market people into a marketplace and then get audiences to that. So if you look at a thought effect or something like that, they’re really not selling you how easy or amazing it is to make your courses online. They’re selling you. This is where you can take a course, dump it into here, and there will be people buying it. Right. And even if it’s at a discount for many authors, that’s the attractive thing about it. I’m not a hundred percent sure whether those authors would care to go to the trouble, even as simplified as it could be of hosting their own WordPress website for one or two courses. However, for the other kind of user who a school or a person with many courses or a business with many courses, I do tend to agree that if it can be simplified and again, this is where launching is trying to make it easier for the environment as well, we call them use cases. If you could come and see there’s a use case that is literally the same or better features and some, you know, simplicity and ease of use less money and you own it control it, and you can get it ready to go from a WordPress type of solution. Why wouldn’t you?
Because at the end of the day, people in this membership economy are cognizant of what a membership costs. So like I was joking with a friend at lunch the other day, how we all have Hulu plus and Disney and Netflix and Amazon prime and all the rest because they’ve lowered their prices to such an extent you can just pay 7 here, 12 there, 15 there every month and never get off of it. But some of those SAS platforms are not that inexpensive. So for many people, they would recognize, you know, what, if I own it and control it. And I just pay, you know, a small amount every year for the plugins, then WordPress really is something that would be useful. And for the implementers, that’s a big benefit.
I’m an implementer who has a niche audience of, let’s say I’m into chiropractic or something. If I know what they need and how they need it. Well, I’m just going to take the TV dinner of this use case. I’m going to customize it for them and I’m going to sell them the thing with the content and all the goodies. So it’s like razor blades and razors. You know, one hand is creating a tool for the next hand, which is passing it off to the other hand. And along the way, everybody makes more money, but it has to start. And that’s where the secrets are. It has to start with the unification of what the hell is the platform and what does it contain?
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, that’s great. The reason why is just to wrap it up, and then we go on to buying this content. The reason why I brought this up is I feel some of these SAS competitors like Kajabi and to some extent, teachable, they have been very effective in their anti-WordPress propaganda. And it’s been consistent anti-WordPress propaganda.
Spencer Forman: I think it’s fair based upon what we’re talking about today, because like even us who spend every day of our work-life with WordPress, it was only two weeks ago that I finally said Gutenberg has reached a level of usability and there are many people about-
Jonathan Denwood: I want to respect what you say, earlier we maybe can do this in the bonus content [Interposed talking29:56] I want to keep the podcast apart more upbeat.
Spencer Forman: It is and doesn’t take what I’m saying the wrong way. I can say objectively that it’s not a criticism. It’s just a factual statement. I mean, nobody would argue that they’re working on improving Gutenberg. That’s not saying it’s bad It’s just the truth. I know. I know. You’re worried about the lawyer’s calling today-
Jonathan Denwood: I respected the general tone of the interview, actually, I was respecting it cause you, did indicate that you wanted to add the first half of the show, a more upbeat positive tone to this interview. And that’s what I’m trying to-
Steven Sauder: Just to riff off of what Jonathan was saying earlier about Kajabi and kind of what your, your answer there, that like, you know, Spencer about their marketing being like, yeah, of course, Kajabi is better than WordPress in some areas like Kajabi is easier. I mean, I’ve lived in the Kajabi backend. I’ve helped people with Kajabi stuff. It’s simpler, but can you do everything you want with it? No. So the answer is, if there’s something you want to do, you just don’t do it. where WordPress is If there’s something you want to do, you can find a way to do it. And that’s really where WordPress starts getting complex is as you start figuring those things out, your [Inaudible] plugins and stuff,
Jonathan Denwood: We just need to make that initial, what you just said, you know, when you first, we just need to make that experience a bit easier. We need to wrap it up Spencer for the podcast part of the show. If you really want to support the show, please join us on the-
Spencer Forman: You want to hear how this ends.
…WP, Facebook, group, the mastermind group. If you’re making a living from WordPress, you really do want to join our Facebook group. We’ve got a load of experts like Spencer, who admin the Facebook group. We’d love you to join us and join the discussion. We are also, in the near future, going to be producing a weekly WP tonic newsletter with all the latest news plugins recommendations, everything you would want to know if you are already in the WordPress community, we’ll be starting that in the next couple of weeks. We’re going to wrap up this. Please join us for the bonus content, which you’ll be able to see on the – the whole interview, plus the bonus content on the WP tonic, YouTube channel Spencer. How can people find out more about you and what you’re up to?
Spencer Forman: I would encourage anybody to go over and try WP launchify.com free discovery, which will reveal some things that are personal choices about what a stack might look like for their need. For their use case. You can check out launch flows.com if you want. That’s a plugin that amplifies woo commerce’s behavior, but launching is really where I think this conversation is about. So that would be a good place. And you can always reach out to firstname.lastname@example.org.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And Steve the how can people find out more about you and your company.
Steven Sauder: Head over to zipfish.io run a speed test, see how much faster your website could be.
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. We’ll see you next week with another great interview, another great WordPress or marketing discussion see, you soon.
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