What Are Some of the Key Mistake digital Web-Design Agency Owners Make?
We discuss some significant mistakes digital web design agency owners make in growing their businesses. We consult with Vito Peleg, the founder of Atarim software, which helps digital agency owners to manage their client’s projects more effectively.
More About Vito
I Tried Everything, But Nothing Stuck… So My Team and I Built The First & Only Project Delivery System Designed For Website Experts. As website creators, we pretty much have a tool for everything, and yet, with such a massive and ever-growing industry, there was still nothing specific to help us manage our agency, deliver projects and delight our clients.
The average agency owner uses between 7-15 different tools, patched together to deliver a basic website project(!!!) What would you do if your accountant, for example, would have bounced you from spreadsheets to google docs to bookkeeping tools to Zoom calls to Trello to email to budgeting tools…. All within the first couple of weeks of your relationship.No wonder an essential website takes between 6-8 weeks, while if we built it on our own, without any distractions, it takes 5-6 days.
We’re wasting 84% of the project delivery time on back and forth, waiting on the other side to take action and trying to get on the same page as our clients, that often get frustrated by the entire process.
Main Questions of This Great Interview
#1 – Give us some background on Atarim; how did it start, and where is it now?
#2 – What are some of the biggest trends you have observed in the WordPress web design and development agency space over the past 18 months?
#3 – What have been a couple of the biggest challenges growing Atarim over the past few years?
#4 – How important are business partnerships for Atarim and its future growth plans?
#5 – If you had a time machine and could go back 2 or 3 years ago, what advice would you give yourself?
#6 – Have you got any particular individuals in WordPress or the larger web-design business community that you look up to and have learned from?
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Episode Transcript
Length: 38:44
(00:00)
Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, eLearning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.
(00:14)
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS. We have a returning guest, an insightful guest, somebody that I’m, really, impressed with and his entrepreneur journey. We have Vito Peleg back, and I’m going to butcher the company’s name, but he’s used to it, Atarim. I had a good attempt at it. I think it’s not too bad, is it? He’s smiling, so I haven’t totally destroyed it. But you’re used to this, tribe. I’m going to let Vito quickly introduce himself. Vito, would you like to introduce yourself again to the tribe?
(00:53)
Vito Peleg: Sure. So, my name is Vito, I’m the co-founder and CEO of Atarim, where we help web agencies, freelancers, and digital teams as a whole, to collaborate visually on the digital projects that they’re creating. I started as a freelancer almost 13 years ago in WordPress, and then, grew to an agency before embarking on this journey with the SaaS product over the past few years.
(01:23)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And I have my co-host, Andrew Palmer, who is a trooper. He’s not been feeling too well over the past couple of weeks, but he still turned up for this show. It shows his commitment to you, tribe. Would you like to introduce yourself, Andrew?
(01:39)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah. Hi, guys. Hi, guys and girls, I’m Andrew Palmer of Bertha.ai, we help people write great copy using artificial intelligence within WordPress so you can write where you work.
(01:52)
Jonathan Denwood: And the global topic of this interview is that Vito’s been an agency owner. He works with loads of agency owners through his great product. He’s going to give some insights about some of the problems he, regularly, sees and give some solutions; it should be a great show. But before we go into the main part, I have some messages from our major sponsors. We’ll be back in a few moments, tribe.
(02:25)
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(02:57)
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(03:29)
Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. So, Vito, I know you gave a brief intro, but can you give a little bit more detail about how you started the company and why you thought Atarim, you were going to solve a real problem and how did the idea grow and how did you make your first step?
(03:54)
Vito Peleg: Okay, cool. So, this all came from personal experience, so when I was working as a freelancer, I was, actually, doing this from the road, living that digital nomad life for a couple of years, building websites, literally, from a van. And so, the work was always remote with the clients and with some contractors that I had to accomplish all kinds of stuff. But I faced the challenges of doing this, but I didn’t, really, think of creating some, kind of, a solution.
Then, later on when I established an agency here in London, in the UK and we started growing, I saw that the same challenges that I was facing as a freelancer, my team members were facing as well, as they were working with our clients and as the company was growing. Now, that became, really, frustrating as we did more and more projects, it just, kind of, put a magnifying glass on this challenge that we’re all facing, but when you’re not doing many projects at the same time, it’s, kind of, accepted as being part of business.
Which is clients reaching out to you in all kinds of weird ways, whether it’s WhatsApp or sending you, I even had a client that sent us the content in the mail, then we had to, kind of, transcribe the whole thing back to digital. And reaching out in all, kinds of, different ways, let’s get on a call, they’re coming into the office, there wasn’t, really, a structured way of working with them, even though, we did try every possible method that was available out there to systemize the collaboration aspect of that relationship.
And then, I, kind of, realized that if I was to build that website that we’re struggling to build with those clients on my own, and that, really, is why I got into this business, and I think that’s the same for a lot of the people that are listening to this. We’re going into this from the creative aspect; we just want to build beautiful websites that work. And if I was to build a small business website on my own, it, usually, would’ve, kind of, took me three to five days, but as soon as a client joins the picture, then it becomes a four to six week project at best, if everything goes well, right?
And that gap, that increase of more than 400% is what is creating a whole bunch of different problems in our industry. For one, when we’re starting as a freelancer and as we’re building websites for ourselves initially, before those clients, we, kind of, think, okay, this is a few days project, I can get this thing done, and then, that’s how we price it, right? So, that’s why you’re seeing a lot of freelancers, a lot of early-stage people pricing the cost of a project so low, sometimes in the hundreds or the low-ball of the thousands.
Just because they think, okay, cool, it’s a week’s project; I can do six, seven of these every month on my own. And then, reality hits us in the face, right? And so, what, kind of, happened over the past 15, 20 years since I started building websites back in GeoCities, is that the tools have systemized the way that we create. Yeah, you remember those days. A lot of tools systemized the way that we create, so we don’t need to write from scratch every little thing that we’re doing.
And that brought down the time that it takes to create a website to those three to five days, but nothing like that happened on the service delivery, on the collaboration aspect of it, and so that remained the same length as it was 20 years ago. And even some of the practices are still the same, like we’re building websites in FrontPage Express and things like that. And that’s why the, actual, build has decreased from, let’s say building a homepage used to take a few days, and now it takes about 30 minutes, one hour even, with a page builder.
But the service delivery still remains about four to five weeks, which that was, kind of, the challenge that I was trying to fix. And we explored all kinds of different ways, but then, it, kind of, dawned on us that I was telling my team, how about we just let the client click any part of the website and leave a comment where the problem is. So, they can just point at it like in real life, like they’re sitting next to us and pointing at the screen, but just not sitting on our shoulder the entire time, right?
So, that’s what we created initially, that was the core initial feature, and then, it expanded as we were working with our users to make sure that we can enable more systemization into the workflow and, really, to tackle this 83% of the build, which is not the, actual, work. It’s the collaboration with the client, it’s the delays, the back and forth, the procrastination, them not knowing what we’re talking about, we’re not knowing what they’re talking about, screenshots, spreadsheets, all of this, kind of, mess; to just throw it all out of the window and create for once, a system that works throughout.
(09:41)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. Over to you, Andrew.
(09:44)
Andrew Palmer: Wow. It’s astounding what’s been achieved over the last couple of years, isn’t it? So, basically, you’ve now done this, you’ve seen improvements in the plugin itself that it, originally, was; it’s now a SaaS as well. Is that because SaaS is a trend, so what are the biggest trends that you’ve seen in the WordPress space since you started this project?
(10:20)
Vito Peleg: So, it was pretty interesting to go from being a WordPress user, to being a product maker in the space. And that opened my eyes to a few different things that, kind of, happened in our community. First of all, the community, which I wasn’t aware of, as I was an agency owner and as a freelancer, I wasn’t, really, part of it at all. I was contributing in the spot forums and inside the Facebook groups and things like that. But, for example, I didn’t know that there was a thing called WordCamp.
Because when I was going to events, I was trying to find my clients or our agency clients, not my colleagues, if you will. But then, that was a, really, huge eye-opening, for me, literally, on the first month that we launched. I was looking online for stuff that are, where can I show this thing? And it just so happens, that WordCamp London was happening at the time, so I went there, then I met a few friends, a few people that told me about another event. And that’s where I met you, Andrew, right? At [Taxin’s – 11:35] event. And I remember showing you this on the iPad, a really, really scrappy version of the tool, and you were like, this is good, this is good stuff.
(11:46)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah. I saw the future.
(11:50)
Vito Peleg: And then, from there I went to WordCamp Europe, and that was, really, a life changing experience to understand the concepts of partnerships and the concept of working together with other people in the space, and what are the challenges that our people are facing? One of the biggest things that, or, you were asking, what are the challenges.
(12:12)
Andrew Palmer: The trends. Yeah.
(12:13)
Vito Peleg: The trends, right.
(12:14)
Andrew Palmer: The trends. Yeah.
(12:15)
Vito Peleg: One of the trends that I’m seeing that are happening in our space, first of all, is the fact that we’re starting to realize that we’re all running businesses here. And I think that this is, kind of, a transition that happens as you grow in the profession. Because when I was a freelancer, I was going after the free themes and the free plugins and no way I would have paid anyone anything, right? But as you’re starting to build a business, you’re starting to look for more solid solutions, and I think that product-makers are starting to figure that out as well, instead of just being side projects for people, they can see that there can be real business happening inside the WordPress space.
And you can serve a lot of people, you can make real impact on the world with the products that you’re creating, it shouldn’t be a five bucks a year type of solution; you can, actually, build something substantial that will change the way people work online. So, I think that’s one of the biggest things that people are starting to realize that it’s not just for fun, it’s also for business. And another thing that has been, kind of, on and off over the past few years is the entire concept of visual work.
So, that means that people have moved away from getting a structured theme and you just play stuff in there, but you can, actually, create things yourself, you can lay out the pages in a visual way, instead of just working with short codes or working with divs before that, and that even WordPress has started to realize that with the Gutenberg Project. And I think that this, really, is the future for everything that people do, it’s all about visual work and when it comes to visual creation, as well as visual collaboration and how it all comes together for the delivery of website or web interfaces.
(14:35)
Andrew Palmer: Okay. Just a side, kind of, note. Do you think that we’re moving much more toward a no code approach?
(14:43)
Vito Peleg: 100%. Not only for those simple pages, but even with tools and we’re talking about AI, even tools like Copilot that reduce the need for developers to write code, as well as you can drag and drop a bunch of different things in all kinds of different platforms, even outside of the WordPress space. And no code is one of the key phrases that are, kind of, trending on SaaS’ homepages over the past couple of years, and that is for a good reason.
Why would we write code if someone can just create a visual interface to what we’re doing? And it’s just a progression that we saw in other places as well. If you remember, I used to write everything in dos, you guys remember in the dos, right?
(15:40)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah, Yeah.
(15:41)
Vito Peleg: So, you just write the command and you go into the folder, but then, you got visual interfaces that you just click through into the folder. And so, it’s very much here now, it’s not even something that is coming in the future, it’s already the present, but I think that it’s going to be expanded more in the future. And that also connects to the collaboration aspect, because working on your own, it’s not scalable, right? So, companies that, actually, want to do some real stuff together, they have to work together.
They have to work with other people to accomplish their goals and their ideas and bring them to fruition. And so, even with visual collaboration, you see that on Google docs, that allow you to do those types of things and Loom and all of those, kind of, different things that are more gear toward, let me show you, instead of talk about this.
(16:42)
Andrew Palmer: Sure. I get it. Jonathan.
(16:44)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. Thanks for that, Vito. So, what have been some of the biggest challenges about building this business and how have you dealt with it, and if you have any, kind of, insights that you would like to share with the audience about that process.
(17:05)
Vito Peleg: So we, kind of, picked the perfect time to start a startup, which was just at the beginning of COVID, or a few months before COVID hit. And I had to ride this wave to figure out what that means. And so, there was this, if you guys remember, at the beginning of 2020, everything was awesome in 2019, then 2020 hit, and everyone went into their subscription lists and just culled everything. Yeah. Just removed all of their subscriptions in one go, and then, you’ll say, wait, let’s take it from here. So, that was a huge scale.
(17:52)
Jonathan Denwood: Can I just slightly interrupt? In a way you’re totally right, but isn’t it really, it also proves if your product, really, is providing value, because it, really, proves that you’re one of the subscriptions that they don’t cancel.
(18:14)
Vito Peleg: Well, they did cancel and they came back and that’s the thing, and I did the same, I just went into my into my PayPal account, into my bank account and just looked at what am I paying monthly? And it was just a scary time, we didn’t know what was coming, so we ended up with no Netflix and without anything, we just killed everything. And then, slowly you come back to what you, actually, need and you’re, actually, using. Fortunately, we were on that side, because as people were working more remotely, they needed tools to collaborate and we were there to help them through that process.
So, it was scary because there was a downturn, but then, eventually, it became, kind of, a good thing for us, looking back. But that was, really, a scary time for the business, which was very, very early. And then, now we’re going into another one of these rounds, we’re not seeing that much of an impact on us, I think we’re a little more established now, but people are talking about recession and all of those, kind of, challenges, the biggest bubble explosion since the .com bubble.
So, we’re seeing all of these, kind of, things happening around us, and so these, kind of, market turns or market shifts is, kind of, something that is, because it, really, is out of your control. But I also think that we shouldn’t let those things, or what I learned is that I shouldn’t let those things shake me too much, because there’s still plenty of work and plenty of people that are running businesses that you can help, and you can support, even through these difficult times, whatever they may be, and there are going to be a few more coming in the next decade, probably. And so, these were a few of the biggest challenges, really.
(20:23)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great, thank you for that. I think we’re going to go for our break, folks. We’ll be coming back. I have some other great questions, Vito’s one of my favorite guests, he’s always insightful. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
(20:40)
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(21:10)
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(21:45)
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(22:16)
Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. Andrew’s doing well. Vito’s as insightful as normal, one of our favorite guests. It’s great to see you and be part of your journey, in a way, because you were a guest very early on your journey and you’ve been on about, I think two to three times on this journey, and it’s great to see you progressing. I have to say, I met up with Vito and Andrew at WordCamp Porto and Vito is an animal when it comes to commitment to his business.
And I think everybody is impressed with his work ethic. Nothing comes easily that’s worth doing and Vito proves that. So, over to you, Andrew, and I think it’s time for you to, oh, no; it’s me to answer the next question, isn’t it?
(23:11)
Andrew Palmer: No, it’s me. It’s me. You asked the last one.
(23:12)
Jonathan Denwood: Is it you?
(23:12)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah, don’t jump in on my vibe.
(23:15)
Jonathan Denwood: No, I think you answered question two and it’s now for me to answer question three, isn’t it? I know, I think I might be wrong there. No, you are right, aren’t you? I’m wrong.
(23:24)
Andrew Palmer: Who’s the one that’s on?
(23:25)
Jonathan Denwood: I’m losing the plot.
(23:26)
Andrew Palmer: Who’s on the medication? I think it might be me. Yeah. Vito is far too energetic, for me, try sharing an Airbnb with him; it’s a nightmare, everything in 500 or more in a minute. Basically, I was going to, you’re a surprise guest today, because there was a guest scheduled and they couldn’t make it for some reasons. But one of the questions I’ve always asked you and we work together as well, as most people know in the business, but how important to you, and this is part of the trend as well I’m seeing, is how important are partnerships to you in this industry?
I think people are seeing it as much, much more important and you’ve always stressed that, so how important are they to you?
(24:17)
Vito Peleg: So, I think that partnerships serve a few different things and that’s not only in the workforce space, I think, generally, in life, building those relationships and making sure that you grow alongside someone else or a bunch of other people that either can support you, but also, can push you to the next level is something, really, important. I learned that, really, I was telling you about the first WordCamp in London that I went to, when I was holding that iPad and walking around trying to show people what I’m working on.
I went into a session there by a lady called, [Dorado – 25:03] and she used to be from SiteGround, she was running the partnership there. And she said a sentence that sticks with me every day, and which is, you don’t want to work with, or you don’t want to partner with people that can take you just a little bit further, you want to find those partners that can show you the stairway to heaven.
(25:26)
Andrew Palmer: Sure.
(25:26)
Vito Peleg: And that means that they can unlock a new reality, because you have something that you can offer to them, whether it’s in the value that you can provide to their client base or whether it’s profitability that you can make to their business or anything like that. And then, they can introduce you to their network, to their clients, to their business, really.
And so, that has been my guiding light when it comes to partnerships, early on, I was, kind of, trying to grab everything that we could because we were tiny, so everything was bigger and that worked great, but now we’re, actually, looking for those, really, key strategic partnerships that we can work together that will add a lot of value to our users, but also expose us to a whole bunch of new users. And, really, the way that I’m thinking about this is customer acquisition cost is extremely expensive. And the way that a lot of companies handle customer acquisition is just by paying the piper, paying Zuckerberg and Google, right?
(26:44)
Andrew Palmer: Sure.
(26:44)
Vito Peleg: But why? Why would you do that if you can work with other people that have already paid their dues, already did the work acquiring all of these customers that are relating to what you’re trying to do, if you’re not competing and if you’re serving them in an interesting way, you can just work together and find some, kind of, a path that will enhance both sides.
(27:10)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah. You have a symbiotic partnership, basically.
(27:13)
Vito Peleg: Yes.
(27:13)
Andrew Palmer: You help each other, and that’s the key, I think, isn’t it? And if you can’t do it, buy it, as so many other companies are doing as well.
(27:20)
Vito Peleg: Right.
(27:20)
Andrew Palmer: But on the partnership scale, you said when you were very small, I knew you when you were, literally, three of you doing it, well, it was you, one other, and a developer.
(27:32)
Vito Peleg: Yeah.
(27:34)
Andrew Palmer: I know that one, particular, person, Mr. Lacey, I think his name is Paul Lacey, was quite helpful in.
(27:41)
Vito Peleg: Yes.
(27:41)
Andrew Palmer: Pointing you in the right direction. And I think almost acting as an immediate mentor and saying, no, you don’t want to do it like that, you want to do it like this, or you want to talk to this person or you want to do it. So, building relationships is the key, so just spend 30 seconds on how you built relationships through Paul Lacey and other people like that from the London meet-up or the London WordCamp.
(28:06)
Vito Peleg: Right. So, the interesting thing is that you never know what a relationship is going to bring later on, and that is one of the interesting things about this, in my opinion, that you start with just Goodwill, and then, something pans out or not, that can also happen. And maybe even more often than not, that’s what happens, but you still have that person in your, let’s say, network or your Roladex, and you can do stuff later on if that makes sense or not as well.
So, with Paul, it was, really, interesting because I was going into those meet-ups, into those camps and stuff, and the way that I frame this to myself is, just walk with your hands forward, just walk like this, and someone is going to shake it. And so, I was walking around the hallway there at the London WordCamp and I saw Paul Lacey and we just, kind of, locked eyes and I just went straight for a handshake. And he said, come; let me introduce you to a few people. So, he introduced me to Nathan Wrigley from WP Builds. And then, he introduced me to Dan, maybe. So, kind of, the London clique, right?
(29:31)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah, yeah.
(29:33)
Vito Peleg: And then they told me about, you should come, there’s an event in two weeks, you should go there. And I was like, okay, cool; let’s see how I can make it happen. And, so there as well with the hand forward and shaking this, but, really, the key is to maintain the relationship after. And I think that with both of you guys; you guys are also great at it. You stay in touch; you don’t let it go stale so that it doesn’t feel like, when we’re working together, whether it’s with you, Jonathan, or with you, Andrew; it’s more about just catching up, or a how are you? What are you working on? How can I help? How can I serve you?
(30:15)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. Before we wrap up the podcast part, hopefully, you can stay on for some bonus. I know that there was a little bit of a mix up and you were waiting around for a little while and I do apologize about that. It just happens, doesn’t it? But I’m, really, excited for your partnership with MainWP, we had Dennis, one of the founders, on last week and it’s difficult to get real partnerships where there’s real benefit on both sides, but I, really, see this being, really, beneficial, not only for Dennis and for yourself. Do you want to give us some information on how that developed and what your thoughts about that, particular, relationship?
(31:04)
Vito Peleg: Great. So, this is a great example of how these things come about because you, actually, mentioned this, Jonathan, I think it was about a year and a half ago, that we should do something with MainWP, because, basically, MainWP is a solution that allows people to manage website at scale from the technical aspect of it. And Atarim is a solution that helps people manage websites at scale from the collaboration aspect of it, and so it, really, is a completing solution and we’re not looking into jumping into what they’re doing and they’re not looking into jumping into what we’re doing in terms of features and things like that.
So, it was, really, a good fit, and I remembered our conversation and I also put partnerships as a main thing for us early on, but we had to build our side enough, to a place where we could accommodate these things. And so, when this happened, I reached out to, not directly to Dennis, I reached out to Mustaasam. And Mustaasam is the guy that is in charge of the growth over there and the partnerships in MainWP.
And I knew him because he runs a WordPress publication called WPfounders, that he interviewed me back in 2019, and this is exactly how all of these relationships, really, come and intersect and this is, really, cool because, by that point, it was just a matter of sending Mustaasam a message and saying, Hey, let’s get on a call, I have something that I want to show you. And he liked it and he involved Dennis in it, and because I was very much vocal or, kind of, active in the community, Dennis already knew who I was, and I knew who Dennis was from his product.
So, it just made the whole process fun, it wasn’t signing contracts and dotting I’s, and it was more about what can we do to serve our users, and it would be, really, cool if we can do this and oh, can you do that? Yeah, yeah, we can build this API that will allow you to do this and that. And we came up with a bunch of ideas, and then, we brought in our teams to, actually, do the work and, yeah, within a few weeks it was already out and it’s amazing. It, really, is such a cool and potent integration.
(33:30)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, I think it’s a real win-win, but it’s very hard, but would you say the main advice about this, particular, area is don’t give up? But it is hard to find the right, no, you might think it’s a win-win, but the other side doesn’t, or they don’t, really, understand the value you’re offering or there’s miscommunicated, but don’t get discouraged because.
(33:58)
Vito Peleg: I think people come into this from, how can I get something out of it? And that wasn’t the intention, and that’s the same for when you want to go on podcasts even; you, probably, get these people that are just, they just want to put themselves out there, but instead of.
(34:15)
Jonathan Denwood: Well, it’s a balance, isn’t it? But you have to have the mindset of giving; you’re going to give some value.
(34:21)
Vito Peleg: Exactly. Yes.
(34:22)
Jonathan Denwood: Because then, the transaction is just all taken, isn’t it?
(34:25)
Vito Peleg: Exactly. And it’s always been my, kind of, mentality to try and how can I just give, and then, things are just going to come back because you just attract it, and I just do what I want people to do to me, you know? And so, that’s, really, how it worked out with Andrew as well with Bertha and with Dennis with MainWP. Bertha and Atarim is also fully integrated in a, really, interesting and unique way.
(34:59)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah.
(35:00)
Vito Peleg: Yeah.
(35:01)
Jonathan Denwood: No, that’s great. I think I’m going to wrap. Sorry, Andrew.
(35:05)
Andrew Palmer: That’s alright.
(35:05)
Jonathan Denwood: Well, so you’re going to, alright. We’re going to wrap up.
(35:07)
Andrew Palmer: Oh, no, that was original thought. And you give love, you get love, that’s the key, isn’t it?
(35:12)
Vito Peleg: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(35:13)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. A more kind of win-win attitude rather than what’s in it for me, totally?
(35:21)
Andrew Palmer: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
(35:22)
Jonathan Denwood: Because it doesn’t go down, people, they soon sense that, and.
(35:27)
Vito Peleg: Yeah, they smell it. And I see it as well with people that reach out to us and to me and they just want to ride the wave, instead of showing you how you can ride alongside.
(35:40)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. We’re going to close the podcast part. Vito’s agreed to stay on for a little while, we have a couple of more questions; it’s always great to have Vito and his insights. So, Vito, what’s the best way to find more about you and about the company in general?
(36:01)
Vito Peleg: So, if you want to reach out to me, you can find me on Twitter, Vito Peleg, V I T O P E L E G. And if you want to get started with Atarim completely for free, you can go to our homepage, A T A R I M.io, atarim.io and yeah, just join the free plan, we’re going to give, and then, hopefully, we’re going to receive.
(36:25)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. So, Andrew, what’s the best way to find out more about you and your thoughts and what you’re doing in the WordPress and digital community in general?
(36:35)
Andrew Palmer: Well, you can find me @arniepalmer on twitter and, of course, go to Bertha.ai. And, of course, with Bertha.ai, I have a similar philosophy there, we want to be the Grammarly of AI copywriting, so you can start-off with your free 1000 words a month for life, and then, hopefully, you’ll see the value and you’ll upgrade. We have a pay-as-you-go model as well, which gets all the pro things, so you don’t, actually, have to have a subscription, so maybe it’s the death of subscriptions, who knows, but, yeah, bertha.ai, go and see what we’re up to.
(37:09)
Jonathan Denwood: And I’d just like to point out, Andrew’s got a wealth of business and WordPress knowledge and he’s always very approachable. So, if you need some advice you can always approach Andrew. We’re going to wrap it up; we have some fantastic guests in the next month, two months. I’ve been shocked at the quality of people like Vito that agreed to come on the show. We’re going to be back next week.
I’m also doing a summit; I’ll be giving more details in the next coming weeks. I’m pulling my hair out about that, I’m having a, literal, heart attack about this summit, but we have an amazing speaker list of some of the biggest names in the digital marketing world joining us for this summit. I did put in a little bit of pressure on myself; I’ll be giving you all the details in the show notes and the coming episodes. Please join us; it’s free for the two live days. Please join us, it’s going to be fun, more details coming up and there’ll be details in the show notes of this, particular, episode. Well see you soon, folks. Bye.
(38:29)
Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we, really, do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group and also to keep up with the latest news, click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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