Using Community To Build Your Online WordPress Business With Special Guest Chris Badgett of LifterLMS
More About Chris
Chris and LifterLMS help education entrepreneurs create, launch, and scale high-value online training platforms from their WordPress websites that they own and control!
Discover the world’s leading open-source freemium WordPress Learning Management System (LMS).
The Membership Success Summit: https://themembershipsuccesssummit.com/
#725: WP-Tonic This Week in WordPress & SaaS We Interview Chris Badgett, Joint Founder & CEO of LifterLMS
Mail Questions We Will Be Discussing With Chris Badgett, Joint Founder & CEO of LifterLMS
#1 – Chris, can you give the audience some more detailed info connected to your background and how you got into the World of WordPress and LMS?
#2 – That sight would you like to share with the tribe connected to using the community to help grow a WordPress or SaaS online business?
#3 – What are some of the unique differences connected to building a business in the WordPress space compared to the world of SaaS?
#4 – What are some of the significant changes you have observed in the WordPress business space in the last 18 months?
#5 – If you had a time machine and could go back to the beginning of LifterLMS, what advice would you give yourself?
#6 – What are some of the critical people in either the WordPress, SaaS, or the online influencer space that you listen to the most that have personally influenced you the most lately?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-badgett-57486325/
This Week Show’s Sponsors
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Episode Transcript
Length: 42:10
Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, eLearning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.
(00:14)
Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS. We have a discussion about WordPress and SaaS with business leaders, experts in, particular, areas. We have a returning friend of the show, a personal friend, as well. Somebody that’s built a great business in the WordPress space, should be a great discussion. We have Chris Badgett back with us. So, Chris, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the tribe?
(00:54)
Chris Badgett: Sure. I’m Chris from LifterLMS, which is a leading learning management system for WordPress. It’s been around since 2014; I’ve been in the WordPress ecosystem, myself, building websites and learning how to use WordPress since 2008. I also have a podcast for WordPress professionals and course creators called LMScast.
(01:16)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And before we go into the main things that we’re going to be discussing during the interview. I’m going to be asking how Chris has utilized the WordPress community to help him build his business. It’s, basically, how he’s utilized community to help grow his business and offer value to his audience. As I said, before we go into the main part of this great interview, I have a couple of messages from our major sponsors. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.
(01:54)
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(02:27)
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(02:59)
Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I have Chris, should be a great discussion. Before we go into it, I just want to point it out, tribe, that we have some great offers from the sponsors, plus great recommendations of plugins, services for WordPress. You can get all these goodies by going to wp-tonic/recommendations, and you’ll find all that free stuff on there. It’s a great resource. So, Chris, obviously, we have known one another, I think now, for about, maybe, four or five years now; time flies, doesn’t it, when you’re enjoying yourself?
But for the new people that, maybe, don’t know about your background and that, how did you, first of all, get into the world of WordPress and what led you and your partner to decide that you were going to build a learning management plugin? Can you give us an idea of what led to those dramatic decisions, Chris?
(04:02)
Chris Badgett: Yeah, I’ll give you the quick backstory, and then, I’m happy to go deep anywhere you want. So, I was a non-technical, non-business person; I used to live in Alaska, I ran sled-dogs up there and operated a tour company up there around that, on a glacier that you could only get to by helicopter. But after the birth of my first daughter, I decided it was time for a change, it’d been a great decade, but I, really, fell in love with this idea of building an online business, being location independent and, essentially, making money online.
And I started studying marketing; I learned how to build WordPress sites by watching YouTube videos. And, eventually, I started getting hired to build websites for businesses, I didn’t charge much; over several years, I built a big agency. We specialized in the course and the membership site niche, particularly, around the Infusionsoft community, at that time. Through all that, I was also launching my own courses as a way to try and build an online business and make money online.
I started blogging about how I did that with WordPress. Those sites started, or those blog articles started going way more viral than my other content. And in our agency there was no good off-the-shelf tool that combined membership, all the LMS stuff, the courses, the reporting, the analytics, and then, gamification, things like achievement badges, certification, behavior-based text messaging, things like that.
And then, all of the membership stuff, so Lifter just came into being to, literally, provide the tool that our clients desperately needed and wasn’t available in the WordPress ecosystem. So, that’s how we built LifterLMS, and the story I just told you was, really, the story of 2009 to 2014.
(06:13)
Jonathan Denwood: Right. So, for a while, you built out this plugin, plus you were an active agency and that was financing the build-out of the plugin, would that be correct to some extent?
(06:27)
Chris Badgett: That is. And I didn’t realize how rare that was in the sense that I couldn’t have done that, I’m a bootstrapper, I had no outside money, I didn’t have my own personal stockpile of cash I could bring to the table. So, I ran an agency in parallel to starting the plugin business, they ran together for about three years. And when we first launched, we only had 42 customers on the opening week. So, that’s not enough money to build a sustainable plugin business, so it took quite some time to, really, get the momentum rolling, but I’m, really, glad I stuck with it, and have joined this amazing WordPress community.
(07:10)
Jonathan Denwood: One of the things that comes to mind with your responses, and it’s quite tricky, there are so many tricky areas, like most things in business; that’s why that’s, probably, what makes it interesting. One of the factors is you were saying that when you were helping clients build membership websites and courses, and that there wasn’t anything that combined certain elements, but what struck me with you saying that is you get other plugins that try and do everything; literally, they become what I call an enclosed garden in an open-source, larger community.
And, in some ways, I see those solutions as a worse solution than a SaaS, because you still have the overhead of having to find hosting and jumping over more hurdles, but you don’t have the benefit of having access to other plugins, because they’re trying to provide everything. Has that been a continuous discussion in your own plugin, where the barriers are, where you offer functionality, but you decide that there’s some functionality that you won’t provide, and it’s better to utilize the third-party system of WordPress to provide those solutions?
(08:49)
Chris Badgett: Yeah. So, this is Chris, the product guy talking, and two of my favorite words are non-duality and integration, which, basically, is having your cake and eating it too or whatever. So, how do you be an all-in-one solution while also being a strong WordPress community player? So, there’s a non-dual thing there and neither is the right answer. But we’ve found a way to, really, embody both, and the way I think about that is someone who designs a product roadmap and plans features, and how we launched into the space and what we’re capable of.
Was that we wanted to be an all-in-one solution so that somebody could come and just buy LifterLMS, and they would need to get hosting, they would need to link in their Stripe and PayPal, if they’re selling, they need to buy a domain name, but that’s it, they have a solution. But if you want to build a super complex Udemy clone that has all these fancy landing pages and marketing automation that goes above and beyond the basics; WordPress is great for that.
So, we intentionally designed the powerful API so that other developers could easily hook into Lifter to extend it and do things, so, for example, WP Fusion, opens up LifterLMS to all of the CRMs in a very elegant marketing automation solution for hooking into the courses and memberships and things that happen inside the LMS. So, that’s the way I think about it is, on one hand, we’re an all-in-one platform solution, a platform business, I highly recommend, by the way. I see it being much harder in the WordPress ecosystem to develop a point solution that does one utility.
You can do that, but it’s harder for that business to survive, be profitable, there’s going to be lots more competition; it’s easier to get disrupted, but when you have a platform like LifterLMS, or like WooCommerce, it has sticking power and it, also, is a forcing function to help product creators focus and make sure they fulfill the need of their target market. And then, also build out an ecosystem of relationships in the community, where other people extend the product or build their agencies around the product or build their own offerings around the product. That’s how I think about it.
(11:37)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. It is tricky, though, isn’t it? But, as I say, if it was easy, everybody could do it, but I think what you are saying is that you have thought about it, you and your team, and it’s an ongoing discussion of how much functionality do you provide and how much for your API and other factors do you leave to the WordPress platform and community, basically, the plugin community, third-party solutions, isn’t it?
(12:07)
Chris Badgett: Yeah. And also, leveraging WordPress native itself, that’s one of the reasons why we were very early in our support and integration with Gutenberg and the WordPress block editor, because as WordPress evolves, if you stay with it, your solution remains current and relevant. Because it’s easy to get outdated in WordPress from coding languages, like what’s been happening with JavaScript and React and everything; doing things the WordPress way is one of the ways we talk when we’re doing the product roadmap.
So, if WordPress is going to go down the GDPR rabbit hole, we’re going down the GDPR rabbit hole; if WordPress is going down this block editor vision, we’re going to do it. It doesn’t mean that we’re not critical or if we don’t agree with something, we’ll speak up, but why fight the tide of the platform that we’ve built our platform business on top of?
(13:13)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. Well, that would be not wise, would it.
(13:16)
Chris Badgett: Right.
(13:19)
Jonathan Denwood: So, when it comes to community; community is, really, banged around quite a lot, isn’t it? It’s a bit like everything; it’s a viscous; what is community? I always felt that you’ve always tried, and your team have always tried to build community around your plugin and your business, in general. Has that been something that just happened, kind of, naturally, or has it always been one of the things that you thought that would, really, help your business or has it come about because that’s how you could market your plugin by attention to build community?
(14:07)
Chris Badgett: Part of it is just personality. As a leader, I’m a people person and a lot of things are relationships, and I noticed very early on in my online entrepreneurship journey that a lot of people would disregard the human element of a relationship, let’s say in social media or the way they interact with their email list or they wouldn’t, actually, talk to customers, they would just build the product that they wanted to create or build the solution that they think the market needs.
So, in our agency days, the things that our high-paying agency clients were demanding is exactly what we put into LifterLMS. So, I optimize for conversations over conversions. So, I listen to people, I listen to the market and I, also, try to be as generous as I can and add as much value as I can and not just be a taker. There are a lot of takers out there as well. So, to have a reciprocal relationship with users, prospects, industry partners, just other entrepreneurs; we’re just, kind of, mixing it all together and, really, just valuing community and relationships.
It is part of our strategy, but it’s also just part of our DNA and community just has a lot of layers, and the way I like to describe it is, a lot of people think they’re doing social media marketing, but they’re not.
(15:43)
Jonathan Denwood: No.
(15:44)
Chris Badgett: And the reason is, if you just look at the words, social and media, people create a lot of media and post it to social media accounts like Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and whatnot. But the social part, in my opinion, is even more important, which is the conversations around that or the conversation that happened before the content was created to, really, fulfill a need.
So, building community is not just posting content, it’s a lot of conversations; it’s connecting people to each other; so creating groups, places to hang out like Facebook groups or live zoom calls or webinars, in-person events, getting out of the building as an entrepreneur and doing things, connecting with people in real life. And it’s a give and take. So, yeah, community is everything, and in the WordPress community, particularly, it’s very powerful, because when you look at a release of, let’s say the WordPress core, a major release, and you see all the names, it’s so much bigger than what a, typical, software company has, a small team and all that.
It’s just, I think people don’t, really, get how big the world is and how niche communities, whether it’s around WordPress or creating online courses or subject matter experts that are teaching on a, particular, topic. When you can leverage the entire world, the internet, open-source software like WordPress and LifterLMS, you can create these extremely powerful focus communities.
(17:28)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I think, no, building a friendship with Andrew. I didn’t mention, tribe, Andrew’s not with us today because he’s not well. He’s not been well for the past month. He has a back injury. And he’s a bit rough, so wish him well. But with Andrew and Stephanie, my co-host for the Friday show, I just didn’t realize how enormous the Divi community was, really. I, honestly, didn’t understand and I’ve never, really, been a part of it.
But it just, [Inaudible – 18:05], I think it’s a bit like when we were talking about the boundaries between how much you provide in your plugin and how, it’s all very tricky, but it’s a two-edged sword. The WordPress community, those that make their living or power users or making multiple website, they are extremely passionate, which is great, isn’t it?
(18:32)
Chris Badgett: Yeah.
(18:33)
Jonathan Denwood: There’s a great interest, but there’s a consequence. You can easily upset this passionate audience, can’t you? So, you have to have the skill to understand what you’re dealing with, don’t you?
(18:52)
Chris Badgett: Yeah. Part of it is just emotional intelligence, I would say, that’s one thing, just being able to, kind of, read people or just understand the different ways of being in the world and the other is diversity. So, there are a lot of different types of people out there in the WordPress community, I know for my customers, my prospects, and people behave very differently. And some communities are a bunch of people that are all, really, similar and other communities have a lot of diversity in there, and, especially, with the international component of WordPress, there are so many different, kind of, I have a background in anthropology, so we call them subcultures.
There are all these subcultures within, let’s say WordPress, or within the course creator entrepreneur community. You have, just to use an outside of WordPress example, in the course creator entrepreneur community, there’s a subculture people, where it’s all about the money and the Lamborghini and the status and all this stuff. There are other groups that don’t want anything to do with that, and it’s all about the passion and the giving and the healing and the self-love and the self-care.
(20:16)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I’m, kind of, I’m in, I think you’re the same. I’m in, I like money, but the only reason I like it, is I like the odd comfort, but it’s mostly around freedom.
(20:30)
Chris Badgett: Yeah.
(20:31)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s what, really, drives me, and I sense you’re a bit like that. I don’t know for sure, but I sense.
(20:38)
Chris Badgett: I’ve done a lot of work with this and self-reflection, and II do put freedom at the center of what I’m after, but also what I build my software to empower.
(20:50)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, but you have a family as well, and I haven’t, so you have those responsibilities as well, haven’t you?
(20:55)
Chris Badgett: Yeah. But there are, actually, three flavors of freedom that I wanted to share, which are, there’s the more obvious, kind of, financial freedom that everybody would like to not have to work for money or have enough money to be comfortable, there are all kinds of levels within that. But then, there’s also the impact freedom, to make the dent in the universe that you want to make. I saw some study that something like 95% of people feel like they have a soul crushing job; it’s the opposite of that freedom, where they’re making true impact that they’re passionate about.
And the third least obvious type of freedom; I, actually, call creative freedom, which is where you’re able to be the person that you want to be, which could be a family person, you could be traveling the world, you could dress how you want, hang out with the type of people you want. Just go out into the world un-judged as 100%, authentically you; that’s the other, kind of, freedom. So, yeah, but there are those different flavors I wanted to highlight.
(22:01)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for that, Chris. We’re going to go for our break. When we come back, we can continue this, really. There are always interesting discussions with Chris. We will be back in a few moments, folks.
(22:19)
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(22:49)
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(23:23)
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(23:54)
Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. Have a friend of the show and a personal friend, well, sometimes. I upset everybody’s sometimes, but I suppose you have to, haven’t you? I just want to say, you have a summit coming up, Chris is a sponsor. It’s the Membership Success Summit. It’s made me 10 years old in six months. I’ve lost more of my hair, which I did need to lose. What’s it going to be about? It’s about building an online business successfully with a focus around membership and community. We have Pat Flynn as the keynote speaker.
We have Chris; we have Morten Hendriksen, Rob Roland. We have an amazing speaker-list and they’re just going dump their knowledge in two days for free upon you. You need to sign up. So, go over to the website, the link will be in the show notes and join us. As I said, two days are totally free and you’re going to learn a ton, and it’s going to be a great event, basically. Onto the interview. So, what do you think are the, kind of, unique differences in the WordPress business side, especially plugins, then building a business as a SaaS, what are one or two key differences people have to know about?
(25:41)
Chris Badgett: I love this question and I’ve, actually, thought a lot about it, and I have a lot of friends in traditional SaaS and I, personally, have gone way outside of the WordPress community to learn inside of some SaaS founder, kind of, online education and coaching programs, myself, where I was either the only, or one of very few WordPress people there at all. And there are a lot of differences; the first thing that surprised me is that in traditional SaaS, some companies have this thing about community; YouTube has a VidCon summit.
SaaSes have community too, but it’s not the same, especially around this idea of open-source software, where both WordPress and the things built on top of WordPress can be extended by all these other people. I don’t know the exact number, but something like a hundred or so developers have committed code to LifterLMS to make it better and, also, build add-ons and integrations with it and stuff like that. It’s amazing. And that doesn’t happen in traditional SaaS.
Traditional SaaS has APIs that are open so that developers or Zappier can connect things, but it, kind of, ends there; it’s not as advanced as it is in WordPress. The other thing about WordPress is it’s much harder to monetize than a traditional SaaS, and I’m not saying SaaS is easy, but I see a lot more pain in the WordPress market from a financial standpoint, particularly, with people that are running actual profitable plugin and theme businesses.
It’s much harder, the unit economics and the market expectations and stuff, than what I see in SaaS communities. The cool thing is, though, I see WordPress, particularly, having a much stronger international, global focus; so what you lose in monetization ability and just, kind of, the difficulties of WordPress, you gain by having this huge global audience, where people are translating your plugin in different languages and just people all over the world are using the tool.
Now, that may be true with big SaaS things like Facebook or whatever, but a lot of software traditional SaaS is more niche and enterprise or focused on a market, but only in this country or in the developed world only, and stuff like that. WordPress is absolutely massive. And I’m, actually, really, optimistic about the future of WordPress and how many people are still just coming in line and joining the WordPress community, the people that are the agency owners, the plugin creators, the website builders of the future. So, for all the faults that global reach is, often saves the day.
(29:03)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, great answer. This is all very tricky, isn’t it? As I said, everything in business is tricky, isn’t it? There is, though.
(29:16)
Chris Badgett: Well, the other thing too, I just want to note on the trickiness is, I didn’t even know about myself that I was an entrepreneur until my late twenties. I had these things about my personality, the continuous desire to optimize things, to test things, to take risks, but while also trying to be prudent and not take too big of a risk and seeing opportunity everywhere. I realized much later for all the trickiness of it all, but I have to do it because I have that personality type or whatever it is.
(29:51)
Jonathan Denwood: Well, I didn’t have the option. I started my first business when I was 20 and I ran it for almost over 20 years and I sold it for a million dollars. And through a divorce, I managed through most of that, but that was in retailing. And then, I got into WordPress and it’s all been downhill ever since. That was a bit of English humor, but Chris laughs at my dark English. A lot of people don’t, Chris, because it is pretty dark, isn’t it? So, are you okay doing some bonus content after we wrap up the podcast?
(30:39)
Chris Badgett: Let’s do it.
(30:39)
Jonathan Denwood: I know you’re busy, but they’re always interesting discussions. I always think you find them interesting. So, what are some of the significant changes that you’ve seen in WordPress and the community, in general, over the past couple of years? Have you noticed any trends come up on your radar?
(31:06)
Chris Badgett: Yeah. Some trends that are interesting, one is that WordPress, kind of, has this thing where it, kind of, amplifies the first mover advantage a lot. So, that’s just something to be aware of if you’re in the space, as you mentioned earlier on this, that you’re surprised at how big Divi is and continues to be, once certain things get momentum, whether it’s a Gravity Forms or a WooCommerce, there’s this kingmaker trend that seems to happen. And that’s just an interesting thing. Those tools do get disrupted.
(31:50)
Jonathan Denwood: Can I? When it comes to Divi, I always feel, sometimes I have a memory like a sieve. Who’s the founder of Divi?
(31:57)
Chris Badgett: Nick.
(31:58)
Jonathan Denwood: Nick. He, really, understands his audience.
(32:03)
Chris Badgett: He sure does. Yeah. And I don’t say it to say that these people don’t know what they’re doing, they’re also good entrepreneurs.
(32:10)
Jonathan Denwood: He’s first, but he’s always understood his audience, a laser focus and he’s always provided the right solution at the right time in the restraints of the technology available, at that time, that, really, zeroed-in on that audience. I feel that, would you agree with that, Chris?
(32:33)
Chris Badgett: I do agree with that. Another trend I see is, there’s a development trend I notice right now that, particularly, over the past couple of years, whereas, the coding standards of WordPress evolves with React and JavaScript. It’s putting pressure on some of the older plugins or older, more PHP heavy ways of doing things, which is causing, in the space, some developers to lose focus on WordPress, because they don’t, really, want to evolve into this new thing.
And I find that interesting. I definitely would encourage people to continue to evolve and update your plugins and things like that, but I see that causing some people to leave WordPress or some products to stagnate. So, that’s an interesting trend that’s out there. Another one that I’m seeing is more competition from SaaS, so in the same way that WordPress, kind of, democratized the ability for anybody to create websites and stuff like that; the ability to create traditional SaaS has gotten, I’m going to say in quotes here, easier.
There are tools and the freelancer marketplaces evolved a lot and the low code, no code create thing, it’s just gotten easier. And if you look at my niche as an example, course creator, membership site, live training, there are so many new course platforms, membership site hosted this, that. So, that’s another thing which I think is, actually, very healthy, because what it’s doing is it causes the technology creators to innovate. So, you have to keep innovating, you have to meet your market, maybe niche down or go broader, but the best tools are going to survive.
And WordPress has never had so much pressure from SaaS, whether you’re looking at eCommerce, blogging, LMS, any of the, kind of, platform categories, there’s a bigger and bigger line of SaaS competitors for every category.
(34:57)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, that’s so true. But I think SaaS is a fantastic business model. The VC and the investor class love it. But as Netflix is finding out, there’s only so much budget, there are only so many subscriptions people are prepared to sign up for.
(35:25)
Chris Badgett: Well, that’s the total addressable market or TAM, it’s real. Yeah, you can saturate a market and, eventually.
(35:32)
Jonathan Denwood: I call it SaaS-amatitis. And it gets to a, certain, stage where they’re starting to feed on one another, the market isn’t growing, they’re just taking chunks out of one another. But you.
(35:51)
Chris Badgett: Another thing I just want to put on there is, this is going to sound, really, weird. One of the things I do to relax is study macroeconomics. And when you look at big global trends like population changes and demographics, if you notice, you can use these things to your advantage, right? I’ll just give a couple of quick examples, as you mentioned, like with Netflix, the viewership of that, kind of, content combined with population growth changes, and also, with what’s happening with inflation and affordability for discretionary income and for spending on entertainment and things like that.
If you look at this stuff with a macro view, you can see things coming a lot sooner, and also, spot opportunities. One of the things that makes me laugh when I hang out with, not in a bad way, but when I hang out with some of my traditional SaaS friends or, kind of, SaaS business folks, is they’re often talking about moving up market, right? But you have to understand, here in WordPress, it’s also one of our advantages that we’re cheaper, we have a lot of free stuff, and, as you said, there’s only so much up market; there are only so many enterprise companies that could buy your tool or whatever.
So, I’m not saying it’s not a good idea to diversify and have an enterprise offering or whatever, or increase your prices, but take care of the people that have limited financial resources. And if you can do that at scale around the world, whether with software or courses or, really, any, kind of, business, there’s a lot of opportunity there. The world’s a big place.
(37:46)
Jonathan Denwood: It, certainly, is. I think the glory days of WordPress are not over. There are great opportunities, but it could also slowly die on the vine. But I think that will be decided in the next year to 18 months, really. I think we’re in a very interesting and crucial time for WordPress, but that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t rejuvenate, because I sincerely believe that. I think we’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show; Chris is going to stay on for some bonus content.
You can watch the whole interview, plus the extra content on the WP-Tonic YouTube channel. And we have some fantastic guests coming up in the next few weeks like Chris, people inside the WordPress business community and in the SaaS community; we have some great guests coming up. So, Chris, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and your great company?
(38:57)
Chris Badgett: Just head on over to lifterlms.com. You’ll find us.
(39:02)
Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And I’m going to plug my summit again. Please join us over at the Membership Success Summit, just rolls over the tongue. The links will be in the shownotes, they’ll be all over social media, they’ll be everywhere. And please join us for this fabulous event. Me and my team have spent a lot of time and it’s just going to be a fantastic resource if you’re looking to build a membership or online business, in general. We’ll see you.
(39:33)
Chris Badgett: I just want to throw in there too. The Membership Success Summit is going to be awesome. And, as we talked about in this conversation here, when you find the right niche, one of the things that keeps me going is seeing people build membership with, whether it’s courses and community in a niche that they’re passionate about and they hit all those layers of freedom. Whether it’s the financial piece, the change the world piece, and then, the creative freedom, be who they are piece.
The membership site community, people that build these online businesses, when it, really, works, it, really, works. And there’s no better place to go learn than the Membership Success Summit.
(40:20)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, thanks for that. Because what I believe, Chris, is that it’s one of the few areas where you could build a business and still be employed full-time and test the concept and start getting traction without risking your home going bankrupt. You can afford to fail and then try again and try again and again until you get product fit for your membership for your course, and it’s possible to do it at the same time as your full-time job. And there are not many things that you can do at the present moment that allow you that, is there?
(41:11)
Chris Badgett: Yeah. It’s a great point. It’s the ultimate scalable online business that you can fall in love with. Especially, if you focus it around something you’re passionate about.
(41:21)
Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. It’s one of the few opportunities online that are legit, that’s still open for almost anybody that has commitment and a work ethic, and that’s prepared to go to something like this summit and learn from experts and implement what they’re being told. And it’s all free most of it. What more can you ask for, folks. We’ll see you next week with another great interview. Please watch the bonus content, it’s always great to watch me and Chris have a great chat. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye.
(41:55)
Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we, really, do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group and also to keep up with the latest news, click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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