#727: WP-Tonic This Week in WordPress & SaaS WordCampUSA 2022 Live Special With Tom Fanelli & John Locke

Can you believe WordCamp US 2022 is in one week? You’ve made your airline and hotel reservations, got your event ticket, and decided which sessions to attend. You’ve reached your sunblock, sandals, and water bottle to stay hydrated. And you’ve thought about what you want to do for Contributor Day.

Tom Fanelli, CEO of Convesio

John Locke, Founder of Lockdownseo

This Week Show’s Sponsors

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Episode Transcript

Length: 36:11

(00:00)

Intro: Welcome to the WP-Tonic this week in WordPress and SaaS podcast, where Jonathan Denwood interviews the leading experts in WordPress, eLearning, and online marketing to help WordPress professionals launch their own SaaS.

(00:14)

Jonathan Denwood: Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic this week in SaaS, this is episode 726. It’s a special; we’re live at WordCamp 2022. It’s going to be a fab event. We’re doing this show live; unfortunately, Andrew can’t join us because he’s ill. I’ve got my friend, John Locke as my co-host. Always reliable, always rock solid, John. And I’ve got a special guest; I’ve got Tom Fanelli of Convesio, another friend. He agreed to join us live.

(00:53)

Tom Fanelli: Glad to be here.

(00:53)

Jonathan Denwood: I’m going to let Tom introduce himself. Would you like to introduce yourself to the tribe?

(00:59)

Tom Fanelli: Sure. So, my name’s Tom Fanelli, I’m the founder and CEO of Convesio and we are a, relatively, new player in the WordPress hosting space. And we, really, focus on scaling eCommerce sites, membership sites, LMS sites, sites that, typically, take a lot of resources when they have a large surge of traffic coming to them. We make those sites run fast and efficient and always capture as much revenue and have happy users.

(01:33)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. That’s why you look, happiness, that’s what we’re after. Hey, John, do you want to introduce yourself to the tribe?

(01:39)

John Locke: Yeah. I’m John Locke from Lockedown SEO. I’ve been building websites on WordPress for about 10 years now. And, mostly, what I’m doing now is SEO for manufacturing in industrial sites, though. Yeah, we take on some other clients too, but that’s who our primary audience is.

(02:02)

Jonathan Denwood: That’s great. And I just want to point out to the tribe; we’re doing this live in the lobby of the hotel. It’s not too noisy, but if there is some background noise, there’s not much I can do about it.

(02:14)

Tom Fanelli: It’s called ambiance.

(02:15)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. That’s why you’re the CEO of a major hosting company, not me. I wish I could come out with statements like that. So, it’s the framing, tribe. It’s always the framing. Before we go into the main part of this great special. We have a couple of messages from our major sponsors. We’ll back in a few moments, folks.

(02:41)

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(03:13)

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(03:44)

Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I just want to point out that I do a great newsletter. It’s always based on the stories that we discuss in the Friday show. I also do a notorious editorial where I have a go at somebody, either in WordPress and in tech, in general. Now, it’s getting a bit more moderate, actually, but it is interesting. You can get this, plus a load of recommendations, WordPress plugins, special deals; you can get all of these goodies and sign up for the newsletter by going over to wp-tonic/newsletter and sign up there.

So, let’s go straight into it. So, Tom, what are you looking forward to from this WordCamp? That’s the first one in almost three years, I think. Wouldn’t you say that?

(04:29)

Tom Fanelli: Okay. Well, yeah. In fact, I think the last WordCamp US I was at was 2019, and that was the last one we had.

(04:37)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah.

(04:37)

Tom Fanelli: And then, there were a couple regional WordCamps after that. And then, now they’re starting back up. And this is an interesting year, but in a lot of ways, I’ll have to wait and see how it goes. But there are a lot of business people in WordPress that wanted to come here and the attendance is, actually, low this year; it’s low because they’ve limited the tickets to, I think there were 650 tickets. And so, a lot of people that wanted to come didn’t get tickets and didn’t get a chance to be here, and it’s in this pretty nice, newly remodeled venue in San Diego.

And we’ll have to see how it goes. I wonder if compared to previous WordCamp USs, this is going to be more of an industry event than an end-user, you know?

(05:30)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. Well, I imagine it’s going to be more.

(05:33)

Tom Fanelli: Because we’ve all been starved for contact. Starved, we’ve been withering away, locked in our homes during COVID.

(05:43)

Jonathan Denwood: Well, you don’t look too starved to me, Tom.

(05:45)

Tom Fanelli: Maybe the weathering away, not so much. We’ve been starved for contact from a lot of these people that we’ve gotten to know in the industry. And so, this is the first big chance for us to get back together. If you weren’t able to attend the WordCamp Europe.

(06:03)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. But, actually, do you think that they might look at this, because next year, if they have a bigger event, I think that, actually, you’ll need two events in one. One for the, kind of, trade, if you want to call it that. And one for the general audience, really, in some ways.

(06:21)

Tom Fanelli: In a lot of ways, WordPress has gotten so much massive adoption and it’s got such a huge ecosystem. These events, and they’re very radically, the model for WordCamp is very different than the people I’m about to compare it to, but, in some ways, I think WordCamp US, WordCamp Europe, they have to grow up, you know?

(06:49)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah.

(06:49)

Tom Fanelli: You look at these other events like Dreamforce, SAST or the Apple developer conference, and these are major, major events, and WordCamp is different than that, because they, traditionally, happen every month of the year. They’re all over the place. There are hundreds, maybe thousands going on. But I think these big events need to level up because, and I think you’re going to start to see that with, at some point, Automattic’s going to go public.

There are a lot of other companies going public in the space, there’s going to be more money pouring into the WordPress ecosystem and that’s going to force these events to level up, and/or they’re going to have other events than WordCamp. People are going to come in and do it.

(07:34)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. So, what do you reckon, John? Because I think it has to change a bit, these WordCamps, but I don’t want them to become totally trade events either.

(07:47)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah, right.

(07:47)

Jonathan Denwood: I think we have to find a hybrid, a happy medium, because WordPress does have a much stronger passion community element.

(07:55)

Tom Fanelli: Absolutely.

(07:56)

Jonathan Denwood: But it also needs the realism that there’s a lot of money invested in it. What do you reckon John?

(08:03)

John Locke: Well, I think that WordCamps, in general, and the bigger ones, something is going to change, and I don’t know if it’s a combination of things that are forcing that to happen. Some things have changed over the last couple of years with COVID, but also within the community, I think newer voices are saying that it is time to mature and for the market to mature. Automattic, definitely, is working toward an IPO, that’s been the trajectory for several years now.

It is just at what point are they going to IPO? I think once they have Gutenberg as a solid product, they think that’s going to be the play. But, yeah, I, definitely, think there is change coming and one of the things that has been mentioned, Rob Howard and Nyasha Green, over at MasterWP, have talked about speakers getting paid, organizers getting paid for their efforts. And that is what a lot of the other conferences do as well. I think there is a maturation process that is going to happen within the WordPress community.

And I’ve seen some pushback from some people in the community and it’s very interesting to see sometimes, who’s pushing back on that, but I think that it will be a necessary step and I think it’ll be a welcomed step.

(09:49)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. I think you brought up a great point there because, I don’t know what you felt, Tom, but I felt with a lot of the WordCamps, it seemed that it was the same speakers all the time, there’s a circuit. And I think that was, partially, down to that they were the most professional; there were some, kind of, stars or senior stars. But it was also because it’s not paid, so that excludes people, if they have to travel any distance. So, I’m, actually, for that, what’s your own thought, Tom?

(10:21)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah. I, definitely, think it’s hard to break into the speaker circuit in WordCamp. I submitted three talks this year and I got picked as a backup speaker. And so, it’s different.

(10:38)

Jonathan Denwood: And you’re so friendly, Tom.

(10:40)

Tom Fanelli: I know, I try to be. And I’ve submitted to many other events and things, and it’s almost like if you’re not a known person, which by the way, this is why I love Vito. Vito’s event.

(10:54)

Jonathan Denwood: I’m notorious, I’m not known. I’m notorious, actually, Tom.

(10:57)

Tom Fanelli: Well, this is why I like things like Vito’s Atarim events that are virtual, where it’s almost more inclusive, you can start to get your name out there. And if these organizers see that you’ve done these virtual events, we have a membership success summit coming up. And so, it’s like you do these virtual events, you get your name out there, people start seeing it, I feel like you’re more likely to get a chance, because every organizing crew is different. So, it’s like you start from ground zero, they don’t know you’ve submitted 17 other WordCamp talks and have gotten.

(11:30)

Jonathan Denwood: I’ve been rejected every time. When you have a face like mine, you get used to rejection, though. So, John, what do you reckon, I’ve also got very mixed, mixed feelings about this contribution day, they’re having this, I think you want some community contribution, but not the idea that you’re going to get a load of people and they’re going to contribute to core or some important element on a day is a little bit misleading. And I think that’s got the change as well, John, what do you reckon?

(12:09)

John Locke: Yeah, so that’s a great one. In the past, the bar for being able to contribute in a meaningful way to core, I think was a little bit lower. And, again, that’s another one of the things that’s changed over the last couple of years in the community. But previously with it being more PHP-based, I think a lot more people were able to contribute to squash out certain bugs or things like that. But, in recent years, it, really, feels like you have to be a certain type of developer in order to navigate this whole thing, where you’re still trying to support some of the sites in the classic.

And then, you’re trying to build this new product with all these bug tickets with Gutenberg, and you’re trying to branch out into full-site editing so you can compete, well, so that Automattic can compete with Wix and Squarespace. And I think a lot of people too, before; there was a lot of positive community sentiment toward initiatives like Five For The Future. And now, I think a lot of people, they’re just so caught up in trying to make a living for themselves.

(13:37)

Jonathan Denwood: Well, I don’t think it helped, the founder hitting the whiskey bottle late at night and started Tweeting about it. I think Tom understands you don’t hit the whiskey bottle and get onto Twitter, do you, Tom?

(13:50)

Tom Fanelli: Right, the first part of that.

(13:52)

Jonathan Denwood: That’s 101 of being a CEO of a company.

(13:54)

Tom Fanelli: I’m okay with the whiskey bottle, but the moment that you start the social media.

(13:57)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah, mixing the whiskey with Twitter. So, to get serious, Tom, I do, really, think contributor day and that whole concept needs, I wouldn’t say removed, but it needs to be changed. I think it’s not exactly working, is it? What do you think?

(14:16)

Tom Fanelli: Well, my first contributor day that I went to was the 2019 WordCamp. And as a new person coming in, it was a way to get fast tracked, up-to speed on what’s going on in the hosting group. And what I saw was people that never saw one another, got to, actually, build some relationships. So, there’s work getting done there, for sure.

(14:49)

Jonathan Denwood: Are you sure? [That’s your word – 14:50].

(14:50)

Tom Fanelli: But I think that the main thing is you get to, actually, meet these people that you’ve been working on Slack with.

(14:58)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah.

(14:58)

Tom Fanelli: And you get to put a face with the name and all of that, kind of, stuff.

(15:01)

Jonathan Denwood: Well, that is a point, John. And I think we’re, because I do my contribution through the podcast, so is it a contribution, I’m not sure? But I think a lot of people have been very friendly toward me since I’ve been here, which surprised me in a way. But we’re not part of these Slack groups, are we, John? We’re not contributing directly, so it might be, Tom’s got a good point there that because we’re not part of it, we might diminish about meeting up for the contribution day, is that making sense, John?

(15:40)

John Locke: Yeah, it makes sense, but we’re all part of the ecosystem, anyway. As you said, there are people who contribute as news providers; there are people who contribute talking about WordPress and hyping it up. And let’s face it, WordPress would’ve never gotten to the market share or the user base that it would’ve gotten to without agency owners building sites on WordPress, all the independent one person shops and freelancers building sites on WordPress and all of the podcasts and stuff recommending this instead of other web solutions out there.

So, that’s a large part of it. But I think it is true, we’re moving into the next phase of the community, you can feel it, you can sense it, people talk about it differently. I think it is good to meet up with different people face-to-face and build some rapport like that. But the contributor days, I think they have to be focused on specific bugs, possibly, that they’re trying to squash out that are an immediate issue. I think that the team has made some progress on squashing out some bugs, there are still some old bugs that are legacy things, but they’re working through the list. So, it’ll get there.

(17:16)

Jonathan Denwood: All right. We’re going to go for our break, folks. We’ll be back in a few moments. We’re live at WordCamp 2022, in the lobby of the hotel. Have my friend, Tom with me. I have my friend, John virtually. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks.

(17:33)

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(18:03)

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(18:37)

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(19:08)

Jonathan Denwood: We’re coming back. I want to point out, I’m doing a virtual summit at the end of this week. We have Pat Flynn as our keynote speaker. Convesio is our major sponsor; it’s going to be the Membership Success Summit. The link will be in the show notes, you’ll find it all over my social media, I’m going to be doing a series of interviews. To join us live, the ticket is totally free. I have an amazing selection of speakers. I’ve not done a bad job, actually, rustling up a few interesting people.

(19:41)

Tom Fanelli: Exactly. You’ve done a great job.

(19:42)

Jonathan Denwood: I’ve been amazed by myself, actually, I’ll be truthful. Just hope I pull it off, if I don’t, Tom will be after me and he’s speaking to me.

(19:54)

Tom Fanelli: I am Italian; I have some people with questionable backgrounds in my family.

(20:00)

Jonathan Denwood: I’m losing my mind on this summit already, Tom. Thanks for weighing the pressure on. Cheers, thanks a lot, appreciate that. All right. So, let’s talk a bit about Convesio, you entered a very competitive market.

(20:17)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah.

(20:17)

Jonathan Denwood: Hosting providing in the WordPress space, I know you host other platforms as well. I, kind of, see you as trying to, and I’m sure you’re going to correct me here, but the way I saw it is that you’re trying to pitch yourself in the Pagely, kind of, sector. Obviously, recently they got bought out by GoDaddy. Am I correct, is that the, kind of, area you’re trying to establish yourself and grow?

(20:48)

Tom Fanelli: Yes, but here’s how I’d frame it with the absence of a comparison to a Pagely, because we’re very different also, than a Pagely, but here’s the place. We want to become the home for high growth WordPress sites. Now, that could be whether you’re an LMS, an eCommerce, a membership site, we want to be the place where people that don’t want to have to worry about any of the underlying infrastructure servers, they just want to grow their website, and they want to know if they’ve got 500 or 5,000 people that come on that site, it’s not going to crash.

And they don’t want to have to deal with finding out that their moment of glory has turned into their worst nightmare. That’s the thing that we’re we built Convesio for and it’s unique capabilities as a platform to be able to scale automatically when more and more traffic comes to your site.

(21:49)

Jonathan Denwood: So, you have a partner, joint founder, is that correct?

(21:54)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah. So, there are, actually, three of us that have co-founded the company. So, there’s Elizabeth who’s here with us.

(22:01)

Jonathan Denwood: Somewhere. She will turn up.

(22:03)

Tom Fanelli: She’s right over there, actually.

(22:03)

Jonathan Denwood: Oh, she just doesn’t want to come on camera, does she?

(22:06)

Tom Fanelli: And then, Dyutiman, who’s our chief architect, and we, basically, set out to figure out, could we modernize and reimagine how to host WordPress using a lot of very advanced technology that the enterprise uses. And so, we built this platform from the ground up,

(22:25)

Jonathan Denwood: Right. So, what is your background then, Tom? Because we never discussed that, so I thought we might as well do it on air.

(22:32)

Tom Fanelli: Sure.

(22:32)

Jonathan Denwood: And you put a little bit of pressure.

(22:34)

Tom Fanelli: No problem.

(22:35)

Jonathan Denwood: So, the quick background on how you got into this, actual, space.

(22:39)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah. So, I, actually, early in my career was a freelancer and I did freelance, this is very, this is 1994, 95, okay. So, freelancing is a little different than what you think of today. A lot of print design work was being done. Early in my career, I worked at a printing company. That’s how I, kind of, got. And then, eventually, I got into an agency and I ran a pretty good agency in Florida, actually. And then, the thing is that one of our biggest clients was like, we want you to come onboard full-time with us, and so I sold out to my co-founder of the agency, and we ran that together throughout seven years, and I went to work at a software company.

And my DNA is this unique combination or crossroad between I’m part marketing, but I’m also part developer, I call myself a very technical marketing person or a less technical developer. And so.

(23:51)

Jonathan Denwood: Oh, so you can tell he’s a CEO, can’t you, John? It’s all about the framing, isn’t it?

(23:54)

Tom Fanelli: And so, I’m at this unique thing of like, I love marketing in technology products. And so, had a great run at this software company, they did field service software dispatching and I ran marketing and sales for them. And then, I went ahead and took a very big leap of faith, and I went to California, San Francisco to work for a startup. And that’s where; actually, Elizabeth and I met.

(24:20)

Jonathan Denwood: That’s a big leap.

(24:21)

Tom Fanelli: It was a huge leap; it was middle of my career. I was at this company for six years. Had a tremendous run, we were one of the first 10 products to integrate with QuickBooks. And the company grew like crazy, it was a huge turnaround success story, But I got bored. I was in Florida at the time; there wasn’t a big tech scene. And I became friendly through my connections with Intuit, with some other startup folks, and this guy that Elizabeth and I worked for was employee 41 at Salesforce.

And he left early and was like; I’m going to start Salesforce for property managers, basically. And so, he founded a company called Propertyware. And at about 20 employees, he gave me the speech to leave Florida, bring my wife and kids and make the.

(25:10)

Jonathan Denwood: Was he as persuasive as I can be, Tom?

(25:12)

Tom Fanelli: He was very persuasive, not quite as good as you.

(25:16)

Jonathan Denwood: Oh, well, for you.

(25:17)

Tom Fanelli: And then to.

(25:17)

Jonathan Denwood: that’s why I like Tom; he says such nice things to me.

(25:20)

Tom Fanelli: Long story short; we, basically, sold that company a couple of years after I got there. And then, we had an IPO a year after that. And so, I was very fortunate to do the exit startup, to exit the IPO at a tech company. And then, I stayed onboard there and, eventually, ran 150 marketing people globally. And then, I went to a bigger company, a $2 billion company and ran a 500 person product and engineering group.

(25:55)

Jon Locke: Wow.

(25:56)

Jonathan Denwood: Well, what do you reckon about that, John?

(26:01)

John Locke: This sounds very, very impressive.

(26:02)

Jonathan Denwood: You’ve been a beaver, Tom.

(26:06)

Tom Fanelli: Oh, thanks.

(26:06)

John Locke: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(26:07)

Tom Fanelli: So, the big company that I worked for, where I had that big team, we had an email marketing platform called Vertical Response, it was a competitor to Constant Contact, Mailchamp, we had a competitor, that no one’s ever heard of, to Wix. We hosted about a million some websites, and we owned a bunch of SEO agencies. And so, we had a bunch of service and product companies for small businesses.

(26:38)

Jonathan Denwood: So, John, Convesio.

(26:41)

Tom Fanelli: Oh, I wanted to tell you, hold on. The name, actually, is a combination of container.

(26:48)

Jonathan Denwood: I know.

(26:49)

Tom Fanelli: Vessel and [io – 26:50].

(26:50)

Jonathan Denwood: I struggled.

(26:51)

Tom Fanelli: So, it’s Convesio.

(26:51)

Jonathan Denwood: I struggled with the name, but I struggle with.

(26:54)

Tom Fanelli: I only want to tell you that because there is a Conversio out there, and I think if people are listening and Googling, you’re sending them to some, I don’t know what company.

(27:03)

Jonathan Denwood: What does the other company do, it’s nothing embarrassing?

(27:07)

Tom Fanelli: Nothing in WordPress.

(27:07)

Jonathan Denwood: At least it’s not embarrassing. I was getting a bit concerned there, Tom. So, Tom, with Convesio, John, has entered a very competitive, I understand where your position is in the company, but it’s always the perception of those that you’re messaging to.

(27:27)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah.

(27:28)

Jonathan Denwood: If you understand.

(27:29)

Jonathan Denwood: John, do you think that you have to, really, pitch to the technical agency market that understands the value that Convesio is providing or do you think, in general, as soon as people get a bigger website, they soon learn, quickly, that they need a good hosting provider?

(27:52)

John Locke: Well, I think that is one thing where the WordPress hosting market is a little bit underserved, is with hosts that have, they market, and they deal in the realm of sites that are having explosive growth. Now, there are some well-established hosts out there, but, generally, it seems like most of those are pitching to sites that have an average amount of traffic.

The only one that you could, really, say that markets toward high growth would be Pagely; they’re designed, specifically, for the enterprise. But all the other players out there, whether it’s SiteGround or Kinsta or WP Engine, they’re all for normal traffic sites, then there are some at the lower-end. But Convesio is solving a specific problem, where it’s for sites that are in massive growth and they want to make sure that there’s no downtime when those critical waves of traffic hit and that their infrastructure on their site holds up and they’re not overwhelmed.

So, I think that’s a great market to serve. And I do think that agencies that deal with high-end clients, enterprise-level clients, large scale eCommerce, and large scale membership and LMS sites, I think that is a perfect fit for them.

(29:37)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. So, Tom, obviously, you’re trying to find your niche, you’re trying to find where your skills and your technology can best serve and where you can start growing the business even more. What are some of the other players that you respect the most in the hosting industry sector? What are some of the people that you think could do, not, precisely, in what you are trying to do, but you think they have a tight ship, as I would say?

(30:15)

Tom Fanelli: Well, I think you cannot not look at a company like Kinsta, which, by the way, I.

(30:25)

Jonathan Denwood: Who were sponsors of the podcast for over three years.

(30:28)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah. By the way, I have some interesting breaking news about Kinata, which I just saw. It’s not insider information or anything.

(30:35)

Jonathan Denwood: Oh, well.

(30:36)

Tom Fanelli: They just announced they’re going to be supporting things other than WordPress, they’re going to support other hosting applications than just WordPress, which is a very interesting play, and I haven’t even, really, wrapped my head around it. But going back to your original question. I think, definitely, Kinsta is a great company. I, personally, used Flywheel before I built Convesio. You have to respect WP Engine and they were.

(31:03)

Jonathan Denwood: Well, the founder and their team, you have.

(31:06)

Tom Fanelli: I often.

(31:09)

Jonathan Denwood: I keep asking him to come on my podcasts and they also, I forgot the CEO, I forgot her name, unfortunately.

(31:16)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah.

(31:16)

Jonathan Denwood: And they keep politely saying that they’re busy, but they are.

(31:20)

Tom Fanelli: It’s interesting. They’re very interesting because they came up and became established in a time before there were a lot of choices in the managed WordPress hosting market, they were there. It’s them and Pagely in the beginning. All right. And if you look at them, they got a lot of early traction, WP Engine did, before the market was nearly as crowded as it is right now, you know?

So, in a lot of ways, their first few years of growth had very different challenges than the first few years of a Convesio’s growth in the market that we’re in today. But these are all, really, good, and I often wonder, and I’d love to get the Pagely founders and I’d love to ask them about this. You looked at Pagely and WP Engine and they’re vastly different companies, and I’ve often wondered, is that a.

(32:31)

Jonathan Denwood: Well, it could of raised.

(32:32)

Tom Fanelli: Is that a regret in Pagely’s?

(32:33)

Jonathan Denwood: It did raise a few eyebrows, because, obviously, the founder of Pagely did make some comments around the company that, eventually, bought them out.

(32:41)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah.

(32:41)

Jonathan Denwood: They weren’t very diplomatic. And then, he sells to the company, but, obviously, I’m just as, if they offered me a ton of money, I’ll forgive all of the sins of GoDaddy too myself.

(32:54)

Tom Fanelli: Well, I just.

(32:55)

Jonathan Denwood: It’s that sarcasm that gets me into trouble, Tom.

(32:57)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah. I am aware of that, actually. They were both there at the beginning and the outcome of both of those companies is very different in terms of size and market adoption and all of that. And I’m sure that was all very intentional about Pagely’s thing, but it’s, really, interesting to see the two of them side-by-side and compare where they’re at and who they serve. But they’re both going to have great outcomes, Pagely had a great outcome with Google and WP Engine, we talked about Automattics IPO, I think WP Engine, probably, should go out before them, but.

(33:44)

Jonathan Denwood: The market can just.

(33:45)

Tom Fanelli: But the market is, who knows what’s going to happen. Yeah.

(33:48)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. All right. I think we’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show. And, Tom, you’re okay for another 10 minutes, I hear?

(33:54)

Tom Fanelli: Yeah, sure.

(33:55)

Jonathan Denwood: You can watch the extra bonus, as I call it, and the whole interview on the Wp-Tonic YouTube channel. As I said, we’re going to wrap it up, please remember to come to our summit at the end of this month, that’s the 29th and the 30th. That’s totally free. It’s the Membership Success Summit, Google it, and you’ll find it. So, Tom, how do people find more about you and what you’re up to?

(34:24)

Tom Fanelli: Sure. Well, if you’re at WordCamp, we’re a sponsor this year, we’re very honored to be a sponsor, and so, we have a booth. So, please come and visit us.

(34:32)

Jonathan Denwood: You have a booth.

(34:33)

Tom Fanelli: Well. Okay. It’s a table, I think. Let’s not over exaggerate.

(34:41)

Jonathan Denwood: I’m going to be nice, Automattic, they’re sponsoring this summit. So, I’ll be become total Automattic lover.

(34:49)

Tom Fanelli: You’re on your best behavior. Okay.

(34:51)

Jonathan Denwood: It takes a lot, though.

(34:52)

Tom Fanelli: Or you can go to Convesio, C O N V E S I O.com. Or you can find me or my team on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and you can email me at tom@convesio.com.

(35:04)

Jonathan Denwood: Yeah. And Tom’s very approachable. So, John, how do people find out more about you and, especially, your great YouTube channel, because your videos are the businesses, as I would say? Howdo they find those, John?

(35:18)

John Locke: Yeah. So, the YouTube channel, just search Lockedown SEO. And then, the website, lockedownseo.com.

(35:28)

Jonathan Denwood: It’s that easy. We’ll be back next week with another great interview. I’m going to be doing a series of live interviews, if the people are up for it at WordCamp, plus we’re going to be doing a load of interviews about the virtual summit over the next two to three weeks. It’s going to be a great event this weekend and also the summit. We’ll be back soon next week with another great guest. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye.

(35:56)

Outro: Hey, thanks for listening, we, really, do appreciate it. Why not visit the mastermind Facebook group and also to keep up with the latest news, click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.

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