We Discuss Making Analytics Easy on WordPress In 2025
With Special Guest Derek Ashauer, Founder of ConversionBridgeWP
Master analytics on WordPress in 2025 with our comprehensive guide. Uncover easy tips and tricks to optimize your site’s performance.
In this video, we delve into the evolving landscape of analytics on WordPress as we approach 2025. Our expert panel discusses innovative tools and strategies designed to simplify data tracking and interpretation for website owners. We explore how these advancements can enhance decision-making and improve user experience. Don’t miss out on this crucial information—watch the video now to stay ahead in the digital analytics game.
#1 – Derek, can you give a more detailed insight into how you got into the world of WordPress, which led to you starting Conversion Bridge?
#2 – What led you to develop Conversion Bridge, and what are some key problems it solves?
#3 – What were some of the biggest hurdles to launching Conversion Bridge?
#4 – What are your views on where we find the WordPress platform at the beginning of 2025?
#5— What AI tools do you personally use to help you run your business?
#6—If you had your time machine (H. G. Wells) and could travel back to the beginning of your career, what advice would you give?
This Week Show’s Sponsors
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The Show’s Main Transcript
[00:00:02.180] – Jonathan Denwood
Welcome back, tribe. It’s another WP Tonic show. We’ve got a great guest with it. We’ve got Derrick Asher with us, the founder of Conversion Bridge. It should be a great discussion. I’m going to go straight into my countdown and we’re going into the podcast. So three, two, one. Welcome back, folks, to the WP Tonic Show. This is episode 948. In this show, we’re going to be discussing analytics, why they are important, how can you get really good analytics from your WordPress website from 2025, and also the business of WordPress. We’ve got a great WordPress entrepreneur there with us. We’ve got Derek Asher, founder of Converging Bridge, which is a great way of getting great analytics for you or your clients. So Derek, do you think you just can give us a quick 10, 20 second intro, and then when we go into the main part of the show, we can delve how you got into the world of WordPress in a bit more detail.
[00:01:23.910] – Derek Ashauer,
Just about myself?
[00:01:25.000] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah. Just give us a quick 10, 20 second intro.
[00:01:28.420] – Derek Ashauer,
Yeah, I’ve been in WordPress since It was probably about 2007, 2008. I started building sites for clients around that time, starting my own freelance agency, doing my own thing. And then over time, I’ve grown tired of doing client stuff. So I really wanted to dive in and solve problems in making products. I really love development. And so I’m in that current transition of, like many WordPress plugin companies that started as a freelance agency business and then moving into products. And I’m really enjoying this transition.
[00:01:59.450] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. Like I say, we’re going to have a great discussion about analytics and WordPress and the business of building a commercial plugin. We will be back in a few moments. Three, two, one. Welcome back, folks. Just want to point out we’ve got a great resource. We’ve got some great special offers from the sponsors of the show, plus a great list of the best WordPress plugins and services for… Aimed at the WordPress professional or power user. You can get all these free goodies by going over to wp-tonic. Com/deals, dericke-tonic. Com/deals. What more could you ask for, my beloved WordPress professionals? Probably a lot more, but that’s all you’re going to get from that page. Sorry to disappoint. No, it’s fantastic, actually. You’ve got an extensive list, so it just saves you from trawling the internet, trying to find the right plugin for your client. Derek, as you’re taking your info about how you got into WordPress, but let’s delve into a little bit more detail. How did you get involved in web development, generally? What was the steps that led And then was it directly into WordPress or did you try a few other technologies until WordPress came on your radar?
[00:03:40.310] – Derek Ashauer,
I started way back when I was in college in 1999, 2000, and a job that I had working at a night school where I just basically had to man the desk and refill the coffee. So I sat there from like 4: 00 to 10: 00 PM. I had 6 hours to kill every night because there wasn’t anything really do. So my The first website that ever made was a fan site for a band that I really liked. And I hand-coated that in geo cities with hand-coated HTML and all that stuff. So that was a long time ago. But over time, got into doing things for friends and family, they were like, hey, you made a website? Can you make one for my small business? So I did that for a family friend and then just decided, all right, I guess I can do this. And out of college, got a job working at a company where I was making sites for their clients and then quickly somehow got ranked number one if you search San Diego web design. And then my freelance career took off. And then once I started doing stuff for clients, that’s when I was wanting to find more solutions where they can manage their own content.
[00:04:48.460] – Derek Ashauer,
And that’s when I stumbled across. Sorry, I actually tried to make the beginnings of something like WordPress. It was a mini little blog tool. It was called Ash News. But But it was just a flat file system for clients to be able to add a blog or news articles to their site without having to contact me all the time. And then that just wasn’t great. And then some clients were wanting some more things. So that’s when I finally ran into WordPress around that time. And then I was like, well, yeah, this is a no brainer. This is all done for me. So then I started building sites with WordPress from there on.
[00:05:23.520] – Jonathan Denwood
All right. So you’ve been running your own small boutique agency for how many years now then?
[00:05:33.690] – Derek Ashauer,
- So 17, 17 years now. Yeah. Right.
[00:05:38.140] – Jonathan Denwood
And do you just work mostly on your own or do you have a small team that works with you?
[00:05:43.310] – Derek Ashauer,
No, everything that I do is just myself.
[00:05:46.310] – Jonathan Denwood
Wow. So do you just mostly work direct with clients or is it a mixture of subcontracting then working direct with clients?
[00:05:57.450] – Derek Ashauer,
Right. For the most part, it’s me working directly with my clients. I did build some great partnerships where I’m there, a branding agency, senior WordPress developer, as part of their staff and stuff. But really, it’s just subcontract whenever they need someone to come in and build a site, and I’ve had a great relationship with them for about eight or nine years. But yeah, those are the main ways I’ve done it.
[00:06:24.270] – Jonathan Denwood
All right. Conversion Bridge, what does it solve? Why did you decide to build it? It’s a bit of a jump, isn’t it? From actually doing work for clients and actually building a commercial plugin, isn’t it? Obviously, there’s a lot of linkage, but also it’s a bit like sailing on a very large lake, and then you decide that you’re going to go on the sea, isn’t it? That’s my metaphor. I don’t know if you agree with that. So maybe give us an idea of what conversion bridge does and why you built it and would you agree with the statement of just the outline?
[00:07:24.770] – Derek Ashauer,
I mean, I will say, yeah, it is what I describe to some of my friends and family what I’m doing, they just say it as like, it seems like you’re just doing the same thing, just a little bit different. And I’m like, no, it’s pretty wildly different, which is good because like I said, after I’ve been building sites for other people for over 20 years now, and it’s just it’s something I’m incredibly burnt out on, to put it concisely. So I really enjoy doing the product stuff. But it comes with a lot of different challenges and unique aspects, where if you’re building a site for a client and I work for three hours, I can directly correlate the income that I’ve made for those three hours, whether it’s hourly billing or I know it’s going towards a completed project. You build a product, you could spend 30 hours and get zero dollars for it. There’s no guarantee that the work you’re going to do is going to yield anything. So it’s a very different ball game as far as different types of businesses that they are.
[00:08:28.960] – Jonathan Denwood
I think I think I’ve got to clarify one thing. Are you one of these genius types that can actually develop the design and the actual look of the website and then code it up? Or are you Are you just, and just, I’m not trying to be funny here, but you just do the coding and WordPress and maybe custom plugins? Or do you do the whole thing, or do you work a designer?
[00:09:01.600] – Derek Ashauer,
No, like I said, everything I do is 100% me. I’m doing everything from the blank canvas and the design software all the way to the final custom coding and development of everything for the clients, and also for my plugins, and all the marketing materials and all that stuff. It really is just me all by myself doing all the things. It can be pretty chaotic at times, but I can’t imagine doing it in another way.
[00:09:29.370] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, that’s a lot That is a lot of work. All right. Sorry to interrupt. No. Let’s get on to Conversion Bridge. So what problem did you see in the market and how do you think Conversion Bridge helps with this problem that you observed?
[00:09:50.440] – Derek Ashauer,
Yeah. So one of the main reasons I wanted to create Conversion Bridge was I started it almost for myself because I wanted to use one of the newer, modern privacy focus analytics platforms. I wasn’t sure which one yet, but I know I wanted to do that because I did actually have some other plugins that I was selling before I made conversion bridge. And so I wanted to I wanted to move to a different privacy analytics platform, but also maintain my conversion tracking. And if you go out there, if you go into the WordPress ecosystem and you go, say, you get, there’s a Woocommerce Google Analytics Plugin. There’s a GiveWP, Google Analytics Plugin. There’s easy digital downloads, Google Analytics Plugin. So for every platform, you had to go and buy or get their specific Google Analytics conversion tracking one. And it was only available for Google Analytics. As someone who built site for clients, that’s just the idea of constantly buying these plugins over and over and over again always frustrated me about the entire WordPress ecosystem. These little niche little things that does Google Analytics, four give WP for this one client, it’s going to cost me another 40 bucks or whatever it was at the time, stuff like that.
[00:11:10.230] – Derek Ashauer,
It just always felt a little nickel and dimey to me. So in order to move to a different analytics platform, there wasn’t anything available at all. So I was going to have to either custom code it for myself or as I was getting to that point where I want to make, I want to actually come up with ideas for products, I realized this is an opportunity. There wasn’t conversion tracking for Fathom, Perf. There’s conversion, Bridge integrates with 10 plus different analytics platforms right now. So I was like, why not? That was an opportunity to do that. And then what I loved about it is that if I were going back 10 years and doing stuff for clients, I could just use Conversion Bridge for all my client sites, regardless of which analytics platform they’re using or which plugins that they’re using on their website, because it adds conversion tracking for a Woocommerce, easy digital downloads, Gravity Forums, WS Form, for every popular form plugin you can think of. There’s GiveWP. All of that is encompassed in one single plugin to solve all your conversion track needs. It also does with Google ads, with meta ads or for Facebook ads, TikTok ads even, does Pinterest ads at the moment.
[00:12:22.970] – Derek Ashauer,
So literally one plugin that you can go to over and over and over again for every single website that you build for clients. And you know it’s going to solve every problem that you need around analytics. And there’s no more nickel and diming for every single project.
[00:12:40.240] – Jonathan Denwood
The way I rationized it, and I don’t know if you’re going to agree with this or like this is that I saw what you were attempting with this similar to the way WP Fusion deals with marketing optimization. So it seemed very Two very different products, but the philosophy seemed to have a lot of similarity. I’ve known Jack for a number of years, and he’s a great developer and a really great guy, really. So would Do you agree? What WP Fusion have done, was that on your radar in your mind as a reason to do this?
[00:13:26.030] – Derek Ashauer,
It wasn’t a reason, but it was definitely as I was building I made the same connection that it is one plugin to solve a lot of integrations in one spot, so you don’t have to keep going all these different places to solve it. It’s a many to many plugin, not a one-to-one plugin. And I’m very well Jack as well. And I even was looking at his website for inspiration for how he marketed things and how he approached to presenting integrations and talked about them and stuff like that. There definitely is some similarities where Jack works with CRMs and conversion bridges focused on analytics.
[00:14:06.340] – Jonathan Denwood
I got a soft spot for Jack because he helped me out on early days on a couple of projects that I should have never taken on with crazy clients that had fantastic ideas and limited budget. And well, it just never ended, and he had to come and save me for a price, though, but he did save me. He didn’t have to do it, really. He used to be a favorite. So Google Analytics, it’s the big guerrilla. It’s probably over a year now they had their update. I think a lot of Google stuff, it’s got more complicated, more frustrating, and it’s the data that it’s size seems to diminish with every new version. First of all, would you agree with that? And has that led to people looking more at these other third-party platforms? And if that’s the case, what are some of the leading ones in this area that are trying to compete to some extent with Google Analytics? Giving you a free Point question there. That’s what I normally do. That’s what I normally do, Derek. Yeah.
[00:15:36.170] – Derek Ashauer,
Google Analytics with the latest version, Google Analytics 4, in my opinion, I think it’s pretty general consensus, we can all agree that the The UX, the UI for the whole thing just went to hell in a hand basket. It’s atrocious. What I used to love about the UA, the Universal Analytics, the previous version of it, was I could set it up for clients, have They’ll go in and create their analytics account, then they add me to it. And then once I had it all set up, I could say, just log in and you can see all your stuff. Not once did I ever have a client ask me, what do I do here? I don’t understand. They could walk in and just look at it, and it all made sense for the most part. And that was great about… I love that because it made my job easy. I didn’t have to really sit for an hour and walk through Google Analytics. Now with GA4, there’s week-long courses on how to just use the basic fundamentals of Google Analytics. And I’m like, I’m sorry, That’s way over the head of most of our clients. They’re not going to want to be able to figure it out.
[00:16:37.600] – Derek Ashauer,
There are ways around it using Looker Studio or something like that to set up simple to digest dashboards for them and things like that. But it’s just yet another step. It’s a layer on top of a layer on top of a layer just to get something that a client can use. So I do think it’s gotten worse in that regard for the a typical site owner and more, I don’t want to say, but more standard marketing managers or people who are doing marketing for their clients. It’s just so overly complex at this point. I don’t think it’s necessarily reduce the amount of information that is collecting. It’s still collecting some good information. And in fact, I think it does a better job of… I can send in product data, and it already has predefined ways of sending in product data so that you can then use that and get reports based on that. Oh, right. So there’s still ways it can do that.
[00:17:35.640] – Jonathan Denwood
It’s just- Would you say then on the e-commerce side, the actual information has got better?
[00:17:44.240] – Derek Ashauer,
I don’t think it’s gotten better. I think it’s still the same. But what I’m saying is that it hasn’t gotten worse, the data that it collects. It’s just the experience from a user point of view to find that and use that is it’s a whole much harder, which when it becomes harder, what usually happens is people just don’t use it. So they’ll put on Google Analytics, it’ll collect the data, and then they do nothing with it because once they first log into Google Analytics, they go, What the heck am I looking at? And then they immediately close the window and walk away because they don’t want to spend a week trying to learn how to use it. Now, people who are professional marketers who are in there literally day in and day out because their only job is a Google AdWords manager, that’s what they do day in and day out, they They figure it out over time. For them, it becomes something that they can learn and deal with. It’s not ideal for them, from what I hear and what I’ve heard other people say, who even use it daily. It’s still a frustrating tool, but it does the job.
[00:18:46.100] – Derek Ashauer,
It’s definitely one of those things where it’s like, clearly developers built this tool and there was no one involved. My wife, who is a front-end UX UI designer. So I hear a lot about how to make good quality UI and UX stuff. It’s clearly that only the developers have touched this. There’s not been a UIU expert who has touched this GA4 product in any meaningful way.
[00:19:09.130] – Jonathan Denwood
It’s just crazy, isn’t it? You must really wonder what goes on in Google. Yeah. It’s really, it’s just mind boggling, isn’t it?
[00:19:22.210] – Derek Ashauer,
My guess is, is they had to rush it out the door to meet all the privacy laws, and it wasn’t really a full fledged product. And now they’re trying to back into it over the next several years. But it’s Google, so it’s going to take a while. It’s being used on however many sites, so they got it. They can’t make sure they don’t break stuff. So they’re too much time to do it.
[00:19:41.390] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, that reminds, that’s similar to Gutenberg, isn’t it? Yeah. So I think you mentioned also some of the other options that are out there. There were some of the leading ones on you.
[00:19:55.350] – Derek Ashauer,
I’d say some of the more the more known ones are ones called Plazible and Fathom. Those were some of the first ones to get into the market as Google Analytics alternatives. So I think they were just one of the first ones. I don’t necessarily think they’re the best ones, but they are definitely I think they do a great job. I don’t have any problems with them. There’s other ones called User Maven, which I think is another top- Well, I love the name, don’t you?
[00:20:24.650] – Jonathan Denwood
User Maven.
[00:20:26.690] – Derek Ashauer,
User Maven, yeah.
[00:20:28.340] – Jonathan Denwood
Maven, yes.
[00:20:28.890] – Derek Ashauer,
So that’s a great Another one that’s much smaller out of Germany is called Pirsch, P-I-R-S-C-H, and that’s actually one of my favorite ones. I think he’s doing a great job. It’s just one guy doing his thing, and I think it’s a great solution. But like I said, conversion Bridge integrates with 10 different analytics platforms, each one with their different pros and cons of what works better, which unique features that they have.
[00:20:57.910] – Jonathan Denwood
So most of the people that listen to this podcast are WordPress professionals, freelancers, agency, plugin or power users. Of the few that you’ve mentioned, what’s one or two that if a friend was asking you, you would recommend? And what’s this? What are the strengths and weaknesses of the one or two that you would recommend?
[00:21:24.950] – Derek Ashauer,
I would always for a landscaper site or the type of client sites, the smaller small business websites that most agencies are building, I would say Perche first and foremost. One of the reasons why is we’ve gotten used to free analytics from Google for 20 years or something at this point. And so the hard thing is it’s a hard pill to swallow to now suddenly have to pay for analytics because it was just something that was free for so long. And all these alternative options are paid options. They may have trials, or there’s a couple that have low free tiers, but any decent site will probably jump over those free tiers fairly quickly each month. So it’s a challenge. Perch is one of the more affordable ones that gives you can get a landscaper site, for example, could probably get all the traffic they need for six or seven bucks a month, I think, if I’m recalling it correctly. So it’s definitely a little bit more affordable. I don’t remember the price off the top of my head. I think plausible and fathom or more in the 15, 20, $25 range. And in the WordPress space, like I said, when everything’s nickel and diamond, it feels like at times we’re buying plugins for this, buying plugins for that, and then also now having to pay for analytics, which previously was free, costs can be a factor.
[00:22:48.670] – Derek Ashauer,
And so Perche handles all the features that a SMB small business would ever need. And it can do some e-commerce stuff.
[00:23:01.470] – Jonathan Denwood
You don’t get nickeled and dined if you host with WP tonic because you get all the plugins included. But on the other end, I think the nickel and diamond, you’ve mentioned that. It’s a bit off topic, but you’ve mentioned that three times now. But I think with a lot of users, with decent hosting, with a decent page builder, I would not recommend anybody to go Gutenberg native, but using something like Cadence WP or Generate Press. Or if you don’t really want to go the Gutenberg route, use something like Bricks. I think use, and then just using a decent form plugin, like you can get the best free one for the type of people that we’ve been discussing, I would say is fluent forms. I I really think with that, unless you got specific needs, I don’t really think you need to go all that bonkers, really. I think a lot of people, they can’t control themselves, Derek. Even if I don’t know, either they’re a developer or they’re a pale user, they just can’t control themselves. They get into the candy store of WordPress plugins and they go beserk. What do you think?
[00:24:28.570] – Derek Ashauer,
It’s hard for me because as someone who could design and then also develop stuff, oftentimes I found myself just being like, I don’t want to pay for yet another plugin for this project. Let me just build all… I don’t need the 50 features that the only paid option offers. I only need the two features, and I can build that in an hour or so. Let me just build it for this one particular client. So I agree that you can get through a lot of stuff. And that’s definitely in 2025, you definitely can. Three, four years ago, it was harder. Ten years ago, it was near and dear impossible because we’re seeing a consolidation in the WordPress space where there’s one company like Fluent, who is making a suite of 10 different tools that you can all buy under one roof, which has a lot of different positives and things like that. And there’s a lot more quality free versions of things.
[00:25:16.810] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, but I think also a lot of the stuff that a lot of extra plugins did, I think a modern page builder does for you in some ways. Yeah, it does. But what do I know?
[00:25:32.700] – Derek Ashauer,
Exactly. But it’s more of those niche things, like little unique things that you, like I said, when I was… Some of the things was I think the final tipping straw was when I had to get the Google Analytics conversion tracking add-on, and the only one that was out there was on CodeCanion for this one. I forgot what the core plugin was, and it was another thing, and it just was like, Well, I don’t want to buy anything from CodeCanion. That just always feels a little like you’re going into a seedy alley for some reason. And so it just was- The backstreet of WordPress. Yeah. So it was just the idea that I had to buy the one plugin for the client to use that and then buy yet another plugin to do the conversion tracking. And then buy another plugin is another add on feature for it. It was just that’s more of what I need. And it was that particular project. It’s not every single client project that you build, but it was just an impetus to how to build, how I like, how I would want to build a WordPress plugin is something that isn’t just this one little thing that sells for $49, and it does this one little thing, which is an add-on for another thing that someone already had to buy, which is an add-on for And the other thing.
[00:26:46.490] – Derek Ashauer,
It’s just frustrating. So the idea of this many to many, many analytics platforms, many WordPress plugins that they all can integrate together and not just this one tiny any instance. And it can be used on any client site, basically. So you could reuse the same thing. So you spend a couple of hundred bucks and you can reuse it on 30 different client sites or you have to buy all these different things to use individually for every single client site type thing. So that’s the idea behind how I’ve structured it.
[00:27:24.450] – Jonathan Denwood
So the name, I love the name, Conversion Bridge, because some of these I can’t even pronounce them. How odd was it to get the domain? Did you have to spend some money or was you lucky enough to get it? But I do like the name, Conversion Bridge.
[00:27:43.730] – Derek Ashauer,
Yeah, the domain is Conversion Bridge WP, so that was pretty easy to get.
[00:27:47.960] – Jonathan Denwood
Oh, that’s how you got it. Yeah.
[00:27:49.330] – Derek Ashauer,
I had the WP.
[00:27:50.200] – Jonathan Denwood
You might get into trouble there, but you never know, do you?
[00:27:54.820] – Derek Ashauer,
I’m not too concerned about that. But yeah, I think conversionbridge. Com was actually taken but not being used. But I was starting a new product. I wasn’t going to go spend $10,000 on a domain when I haven’t even made $10,000 on it yet. I wasn’t going to go.
[00:28:12.770] – Jonathan Denwood
I think because you got the WP at the end, it all works, doesn’t it? But the name does in your mind, it is the product, isn’t it?
[00:28:23.870] – Derek Ashauer,
So you did go there. Yeah. And that’s what I wanted, because I wanted to make it clear what the differentiator was between this isn’t just a plugin to add plausible or add basic Google analytic page view tracking. That’s not what it is. What it is about conversion tracking, which is another level of analytics. It’s when does someone submit a form? When do they click a specific button? When did they make a purchase on your site and get all the details about it so that you can track back to what that user did, where did they come from, and all that stuff to give yourself or your clients really quality data. I think there’s a lot of… I’m guilty of this myself. So I set up site for clients, I add Google Analytics, and then I walk away. And then the client goes, great. I had 100 people who visited my site, but did any of them contact me? Did any of them buy something for my site? Did they sign up for a newsletter? Oh, wait. Well, we didn’t set up conversion tracking for your site. Well, why didn’t we? Well, because it’s a pain in butt to do it because it required some code snippets and figuring where it goes, what hooks and filters in WordPress, all kinds of stuff of when to make things happen.
[00:29:37.420] – Derek Ashauer,
And so that’s a great differentiator about Conversion Bridge, is that it’s a couple of clicks, and not only have you added the analytics platform to track the page views, which is what we should be doing for every client site, but now you can really get some great data about when they’re submitting forms on the site, making purchases, signing up for the newsletter, all that stuff with just a couple of clicks. There’s no more coding, there’s no confusion. It’s just boom, boom. Now I can not only give my client, here’s some great data about now that we’ve launched your new site, we can see how much more traffic your site is getting or you’ve implemented a new SEO strategy. Not just the amount of traffic, but you can also say, we’ve now tripled the amount of contact forms or leads that you’ve gotten through your website, which is the real metric that you want to be giving to your clients as evidence that you are producing value for them. So So that’s one of the differentiators that I wanted the name to convey that this is about conversions.
[00:30:36.760] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I’ll give you top marks, because am I correct that you don’t offer a free version? So you decided not to use the power of the directory. Was that something you really had to think about? Because it’s a two-edged sold, isn’t it? So what was the thoughts behind that? And was you decided not to go down that route from day one?
[00:31:09.110] – Derek Ashauer,
Right. So I do have some other plugins, and they do follow the freemium model. So I’m experienced in building stuff and using that model. And there are pros and cons to each one. Quite honestly, there’s a couple of reasons. Two main ones were the moment you offer a free version, you can’t undo it. So that’s- You’re Yeah, you’re basically stuck. So there’s no control Z for that because then people have certain expectations.
[00:31:36.030] – Jonathan Denwood
And I’ve been told the people, the support tickets, they’re the most brilliant.
[00:31:44.810] – Derek Ashauer,
I’ve been lucky with my plugins that I have not experienced that, honestly. I have a few rare times, but- I think it depends.
[00:31:54.760] – Jonathan Denwood
I was being so crazy.
[00:31:55.570] – Derek Ashauer,
It depends on what it is. Oh, no, no. Trust me, I’ve heard the stories and I’ve seen them.
[00:32:00.020] – Jonathan Denwood
So But I think with something like Conversion Bridge, you really would be opening a can of worms if you offer the free version.
[00:32:08.000] – Derek Ashauer,
The other challenge was the line. It’s often talked about with other product makers is, where’s the line that you delineate of what’s free and what’s paid. And I struggled with where that line would be to make it worthwhile for free users to want to use it, but then not give the farm away at the same time. I just couldn’t decide on what that would be. Conversion Bridge, I think in a week from now is going to be my one year anniversary of launching version 1. I’m still open to the idea if I could ultimately find it, but that was the reason for it.
[00:32:53.280] – Jonathan Denwood
You mentioned the nickel and dime. The other way that a few friends of mine have dealt with it is they offer a free version. It has a lot of value, but there’s a lot of pinch points, and then you got to buy add-ons or add-on packs. I don’t think that would suit your philosophy that you’ve outlined so far in this podcast, would it?
[00:33:19.580] – Derek Ashauer,
But maybe you. It’s one of those things about running stuff like this, running a plugin, you are constantly reevaluating what is and It isn’t working, whether it’s changing prices or your marketing channels that you’re focusing on. And it could also very well be the offering itself. When I started Conversion Bridge, I was going to purposely not even include integration with Google Analytics. I wanted it to be for alternative platforms. I mean, I learned within three seconds that that wasn’t going to work out..
[00:33:55.270] – Jonathan Denwood
Sorry.
[00:33:58.690] – Derek Ashauer,
Because I wanted it to truly be an alternate option to things like Monster Insights or some of the existing… I mean, Google Site Kit, even.
[00:34:08.680] – Jonathan Denwood
I wanted it because you could already do that. You tried to lead it some between you and I made it.
[00:34:11.520] – Derek Ashauer,
But I quickly realized when the first five people that asked me questions, all of them asked me about Google Analytics, and I was like, okay. So I was like that. I mean, that was pretty clear.
[00:34:23.460] – Jonathan Denwood
People don’t realize you got to be… Because you strike me as somebody that really thinks stuff out. And So you make the best choices, and then you got to be prepared to move fast because you’re just making honest assumptions on you based on your experience.
[00:34:46.830] – Derek Ashauer,
And I even say as a product or a plugin owner, even within the several that I have, what works in one doesn’t work in another because it’s a totally different market. It’s a different type of user, even though they’re still WordPress users. One of mine is called Sunshine Photocart, and it’s built specifically for photographers. They are a very unique, specific bunch of people.
[00:35:12.550] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s one way I put it, by my experience. When I was like you, and I got totally burnt out. And then I worked for an agency, a major North Nevada agency for a few years, and that was crazy. And then I worked for myself, and I got I got totally burnt out. I mean, absolutely burnt out. So I got to the stage where I couldn’t touch a computer for 18 months. I got a manual job and I couldn’t do it. We’ve had a great discussion in the first half. We’re going to have another little quick break for our sponsors of the show, who are much appreciated, and we will We’ll be back in a few moments to terrorize Derek some more with the interrogation. We’ll be back in a few moments, folks. Three, two, one. We’re coming back, folks. We’ve had a great discussion with Derek. I think we covered some interesting stuff. Got some more interesting questions. But before we delve into the second half, I also want to point out that if you’re looking for a great hosting partner, especially around membership and community websites for your clients, why don’t you have a look at what WP Tonic has to offer?
[00:36:39.350] – Jonathan Denwood
We’ve got some great packages for developer freelance partners. You can find more details by going over to Wp-tonic. Com/partners, wp-tonic. Com/partners, and we love you to partner with us. So no free version. You built this. Who do you… So Building something and actually getting traction is completely different. Part of your exercise, trying to get some traction, is agreeing to come onto this podcast, I would imagine. But I loved the name, and I looked at your background and I thought, Yeah, let’s try and support him. What was there planned? First of all, you’ve mentioned your previous plugins or your ongoing plugins. How many active other plugins have you got going, actually? Can you give us a quick outline?
[00:37:58.330] – Derek Ashauer,
Yeah. I have my conversion The Sunshine photocart that I mentioned. I have a couple other ones. One’s a confetti plugin. So it adds a little confetti effect on the page when you submit a form or do a purchase on Woocommerce, stuff like that. So it’s just totally fun little silly thing. And then an address autocomplete anything. It makes it easy to add Google’s address autocomplete to basically any form on a WordPress website. So again, and that came from trying to solve a problem on the client site. Both the confetti and address autocomplete, they client request for something. I was like, well, I can turn that into a plugin. And so and turn those ones into a couple of other. Those ones all do have. Those are all free me ones. So there is a free version and then a paid version, like the Confetti You can just put the standard confetti effect using a short code or something like that. The paid one then lets you customize it, what angle it comes in, how fast it comes in, how long the colors and all that stuff. So it can really make it how you want it to look.
[00:38:58.350] – Derek Ashauer,
And then the address autocomplete, the free one does one form, and then the paid one, you can do an unlimited number of forms on a single site. Those ones have pretty clear lines that were easy to decide what would be a good free version and what would make a worthwhile paid version.
[00:39:14.950] – Jonathan Denwood
So you got a little bit of experience in the plugin, but conversion Bridge is a different animal, isn’t it? The amount of time, energy, I have no idea how much time you guys have brought into this. I really don’t want to know because I think it might have more my hair fall out, and I’m not even involved in it. So you start building conversion. I would imagine, I’m only surmising this, that this is really aimed at the WordPress community, the pro community initially. That’s where you’re going to get some traction. But then you’ve also got the bigger market of the agency market that are used in WordPress, but they know nothing about the WordPress community, nor do they want to know anything. So you start getting… So how much energy did you put in in working out a marketing strategy and how you were going to start getting some traction?
[00:40:18.510] – Derek Ashauer,
Zero. I mean, the general strategy was, well, I’m going to make this, and then I’m just going to keep posting about it on Twitter. I mean, there wasn’t much- How many hours have you put into this, developing it?
[00:40:34.980] – Jonathan Denwood
Be honest.
[00:40:36.320] – Derek Ashauer,
I have. I honestly don’t know. I’m terrible at tracking my time. I mean, I started it in… All I know is I started it in a week before Christmas in 2023, and the first version launched in February of 2024. So it took me from initial like, okay, I had the idea for about six months beforehand, but I just sat on it, not if it was actually a worthwhile one, and then something just- Now you developed it.
[00:41:03.810] – Jonathan Denwood
Is it mostly PHP or are you into React and JavaScript?
[00:41:07.690] – Derek Ashauer,
It’s all PHP and some vanilla JavaScript. It’s one of those things where it’s To get it done, that’s what I know. I’m not in the world of React or anything like that yet. I can do some basic blocks.
[00:41:23.990] – Jonathan Denwood
It’s dangerous in JavaScript. I was a JavaScript developer in the days where there were no libraries. That’s why I got down here, Derek. Those Wixbooks, those red things, trying to get the dom to work on different browsers. Jesus. I’ve been out stuff. So no plan. So hopefully, what things have been working for you to start getting some traction?
[00:41:59.430] – Derek Ashauer,
For me, honestly, it’s been great being just part of the community and being involved and active in it, at least even if it’s just online in the social channels. I’ve just posted on Twitter. I’ve encountered some great people and then met them in person. I’ve gone to my first word camp, and I think it was 2023, it was my first word camp, and then went in 2024, US WordCamp.
[00:42:22.010] – Jonathan Denwood
Oh, you were there when the bomb exploded?
[00:42:26.840] – Derek Ashauer,
I actually did not go to that. I met a friend who walking the opposite direction saying, I don’t want to go to that. You want to join me for a drink? I’ll buy. And I was like, okay.
[00:42:34.850] – Jonathan Denwood
That was a well-efficient, wasn’t it?
[00:42:36.680] – Derek Ashauer,
We actually ended up walking over to the hotel bar and having a drink when all of a sudden the phone started blowing up. The explosion happened. Yeah, while we were having a drink, and all of a sudden I was like, what is going on. Oh, dang. Okay. But yeah, anyway.
[00:42:48.810] – Jonathan Denwood
I bet it was a few people wanted a drink after listening to that.
[00:42:52.080] – Derek Ashauer,
The looks on people’s faces as they were walking back into the hotel after that was something to be seen. It was interesting.
[00:43:00.180] – Jonathan Denwood
My English humor gets me into a lot of trouble, Derek.
[00:43:04.060] – Derek Ashauer,
You seem to be enjoying it, but a lot of Americans don’t get it, Derek.
[00:43:09.710] – Jonathan Denwood
They think I’m a prick. Maybe they’re right. I don’t care. I’m not perfect.
[00:43:18.790] – Derek Ashauer,
What’s been working for me is posting a lot about it on social media and getting a lot of people to know about it, and then they refer it or talk about to their friends, other people. So one of the big things about when I was doing my agency work, I worked, I got new clients 100 %. Let me rephrase, that’s not true. The last 10 years or so, my new clients 100 % came from referrals from people I’d work with and then telling them about other people. So I’m big on good quality customer support and keeping people around me happy and informed. And then they tell everyone, and that’s a lot less work for me. I find that easier to spend the time doing in good quality communication and support and being friendly and kind and what that yields naturally in return.
[00:44:08.370] – Jonathan Denwood
I don’t believe in any of that. That might be your mantra, but there we go. I No, I’m not really kidding. I have been surprised over the years, the amount of clients and people that… I’m slightly bonkers, but I have been surprised the amount of people that I’ve come to the conclusion that has some form of mental personality disorder I’ve had to deal with. But maybe that’s me. Maybe I attract what you are. There we go. So what have been the most surprising things that come up with your journey with Conversion Bridge so far that you would like to share with the audience?
[00:44:59.740] – Derek Ashauer,
I think it’s just the patience that is required. I think I alluded to it earlier that when you’re doing billing sites or doing projects for clients, you say, I’m going to get $5,000 to produce this. You know what it is, what you need to produce, and you know what you’re going to get paid for it before you even start on it. And it’s great. When you’re building the plugin, I could spend six months building something and get zero dollars in return for it. It’s been a surprise at what different mentality that you have to have about trying to run a plugin business than it is running an agency. That you really have to… When I’m doing, for me, I’m a developer first, a designer second, and then a marketer way, way down the line third. Yeah, way down the line. So the idea of, okay, I’m going to write these 10 articles about something or do this connect with a… Like one of the things I want to mention also that’s been working fairly well is I do a lot of integrations with other plugins. So reaching out to them to cross-promote each other has also been a great one.
[00:46:19.800] – Derek Ashauer,
It’s a natural fit. They have an audience of tens of thousands of users. And I built an integration. They want to share that.
[00:46:26.830] – Jonathan Denwood
And it’s non-threatening as well, isn’t it? It’s totally There’s a lot of times a lot of people can’t do that because it’s not so black and white, but I can see that working really well for you.
[00:46:40.360] – Derek Ashauer,
But yeah, so the surprise is just how you can do that partnership. You spend the time working with them, spend a couple hours, whether it’s co-crafting a blog article and an email to go out to their list and all this stuff, and then say, I have no idea if this is going to yield any results whatsoever. Whatever. So it’s just knowing that you have to keep going at it and be persistent, and that you may not see anything for a couple of years before you really see a true be able to recoup my time. You asked me about how many hours I spent developing, and I’d include my marketing, and you say, I think about this often.
[00:47:24.500] – Jonathan Denwood
I have no idea how many hours you put in this.
[00:47:26.810] – Derek Ashauer,
And I think about it and I go, okay, basically- It just puts me in a cold sweat actually. And then I was trying to say, then I think about the hourly rate, and it would probably be $2 an hour at this point. And I go, I could probably go again on Fiverr and make 10 times that, 100 times that, and do some simple projects and knock it out instead of all the headaches and stress and of not knowing that I’m going to make money, or I could just walk in and start grading projects and know that I am going to make money. So the mentality is just how different you have to to be prepared for that stuff.
[00:48:02.800] – Jonathan Denwood
Are you just… Because I wouldn’t even ask you about your personal finances, but are you keeping just some old clients going, or have you really reduced your book of business to almost zero, with just zero in with conversion Bridge. Maybe you can give us some idea percentage-wise, how much if you are dealing with existing client and how much in percentage terms your day and week is on conversion Bridge.
[00:48:35.980] – Derek Ashauer,
I’ve been working on this transition for probably about two years now of moving from clients to being product only. I’d say my time-wise right now is probably about 25 % clients and 75… Let me rephrase that. I would say… No, I have to rethink this a little bit. I would say it is more about It’s probably more about 60 to 70 % doing client and stuff. But what I’m filling it in with now is where I don’t have my own direct agency clients. Those, for better or worse, I think for the better, have I’ve been drifting, and I have not signed a new agency client in probably a year, year and a half. It’s been struggling because I never really did marketing for my agency. It was all referrals. But as I’ve started to focus on my products, there’s just been a natural I don’t put as much attention on my clients. So they’re not getting as quality attention, and so they’re less likely to refer and stuff like that. And just over time, they churn and go off to do other things or businesses close or all that stuff. So I think I’ve had more time.
[00:49:44.430] – Derek Ashauer,
I’ve backfilled that right now, I actually am working with a couple other plugin companies as a contractor developer as well to backfill some other income. So I would say my product income is probably about 40 % of my total income.
[00:50:04.300] – Jonathan Denwood
So you’re reasonably happy with the.
[00:50:07.980] – Derek Ashauer,
Ideally, it would be… I mean, of course, we all want it to grow. I want it to be 100 % of my income.
[00:50:12.760] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, it just takes much longer than people And it’s only been around a year.
[00:50:16.950] – Derek Ashauer,
And other product owners that I’ve talked with have basically said, you need to go for at least two years, if not three years, before you start to really evaluate how it’s doing.
[00:50:28.470] – Jonathan Denwood
I think it’s going in in the right direction. I hope so. I think if it isn’t, but it’s really hard. Nobody can feel it.
[00:50:36.680] – Derek Ashauer,
It’s hard to gage, yeah. But that’s how I’ve been doing it. I still do have some clients. One of the things that is a resold Hosting. And so I make 15 % of my annual income is from clients that I never even touch.
[00:50:52.710] – Jonathan Denwood
I was warming to you, Derek, but now I’m going cold now. There we go. But Well, when you launched, I suppose another thing, this is a whole chestnut, but I got to throw it into the conversation, lifetime deals. There’s only one thing that warms the heart of WordPress developers, and that’s lifetime deals. They’re a cold lot. Did you offer Were some lifetime deals when you initially? What’s your views on it? Or did you decide you’re not going there?
[00:51:36.310] – Derek Ashauer,
I do have some lifetime options right now. They’re priced accordingly, in my opinion. But yeah, they do. There are some on there. It’s not going to be $50 for a lifetime. It’s nothing cheap. It’s the usual calculation of the average customer last this long. You can just prepay for that up front and then you could have it for 10 years if you wanted. But yeah, I do offer some lifetime deals for Conversion Bridge, but I test it regularly every once in a while. Sometimes I pull it down to see if that makes an impact on sales, see what’s going on. And and then put it back in and try it.
[00:52:17.250] – Jonathan Denwood
What’s your opinion about doing specials over Cyber Monday, Thanksgiving, whatever? Because I know some of my That got very large plug-in. The terrifying thing is almost 40 or 50% of their business is done over a month of the year, which must be quite terrifying. What’s your views on that?
[00:52:51.550] – Derek Ashauer,
I did one this last year, so definitely participated in that whole thing. I I would say 80 % of the sales that I did over that Black Friday were lifetime deals, because that’s when people were really snatching it up. So, yeah, I mean, it’s a way to do it. I guess I see it as if there are certain customers that will only buy if it’s discounted, then I guess I’d rather get their money than not at all.
[00:53:27.110] – Jonathan Denwood
I think Jack deals with it quite well because he offers special offers, but they don’t get lifetime support.
[00:53:34.200] – Derek Ashauer,
They get a couple of years.
[00:53:37.360] – Jonathan Denwood
And then if they want more support, they’ve got to pay for it.
[00:53:41.280] – Derek Ashauer,
And that’s the kicker. In 10 years from now, am I going to have to keep supporting you, even though you only paid me 100 bucks, and you’ve been using this product for 100 years, and you send me a support ticket every six weeks. That’s unsustainable for a business to be able to do that. I think that’s It’s a fair way to look at it in a way.
[00:54:02.170] – Jonathan Denwood
I agree.
[00:54:02.790] – Derek Ashauer,
Yeah, I think so, too. The other side is when you’re selling a product, I would say most of the support tickets happen within the first month from most customers as they get onboarding, have some questions, and then over time.
[00:54:17.030] – Jonathan Denwood
Is that the freelancers? How do you find the freelancers or the small boutique agency? I would imagine most of your people in it, I don’t know, I never quantified that with you. How would you see… Are most of the people buying, are they freelancers, or boutique, or larger agency owners, or is it direct people who’ve got online business?
[00:54:46.850] – Derek Ashauer,
It is mostly professionals. People are building a site for someone because they’re the ones that understand what conversion tracking is in the first place. Trying to tell someone who’s making a blog about their favorite kite, about kite flying or something like that, they’re just I mean, they don’t necessarily have a need for it. So it is usually people who understand, who are running a marketing campaign for a client, things like that. They understand the need to track those conversions. So that is my main audience that I’m trying to get in front of for a conversion bridge.
[00:55:18.890] – Jonathan Denwood
And that’s why the lifetime deals are ever placed. Let’s move on. Let’s go on to AI, which I have such mixed feelings. I use a ton of It’s been really helpful, but I also got involved in web design a bit like you, but I’m a lot older than you. I got involved in ’97, ’98, I started knocking out a few websites, and then I got into Flash, then I got into JavaScript, then I moved to America, and then I got into WordPress. At the time, I was working for an agency. That was the first job I had. I always worked for myself before that, and that was an eye opener. Do you use any AI tools, or do you think it’s the small of the devil.
[00:56:16.510] – Derek Ashauer,
No, I definitely use them, and they’re incredibly helpful for building faster. I I love it. I’ve been able to build things a lot quicker, a lot faster. With Conversion Bridge, it’s not too helpful because AI has no ability to comprehend the code base of the 50 plus plugins that I do integrations for and how to do things.
[00:56:49.560] – Jonathan Denwood
If it manages that, I think we’ve got a bigger problem. Yeah.
[00:56:53.770] – Derek Ashauer,
But for example, right now, I’m building a more detailed integration with the Google Ads API to make it easier to work with Google Ads conversion tracking. It’s been fairly helpful with in things because it’s a more open API, it’s more generic. But yeah, I I like AI so far. I’m also concerned that I’m not going to have a job in two years.
[00:57:19.840] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I’m not trying to be funny here. Are you concerned because a lot of people listening to this, there’s a certain type I was going to use a term, but I’m not going to use it actually. There’s a certain type of developer out there that listening to this, and they’re probably thinking, Derek, I can just get the connection. I can just ask AI to knock out an add-on that does the connection. I don’t have to buy your product.
[00:57:52.820] – Derek Ashauer,
Good luck on that, I dare you. I’d love to see what AI does for you. Good luck with it.
[00:57:58.610] – Jonathan Denwood
But there is I’m not trying to be funny, but there is the type that are listening to this that are thinking that, aren’t they?
[00:58:07.800] – Derek Ashauer,
Oh, no, absolutely. And I’ve thought the exact same thing, and I’ve tried it, and it doesn’t work so far. Maybe in a year from now, maybe in two years from now, it might.
[00:58:16.900] – Jonathan Denwood
I’ve been aggast. There’s been people on public forums, on large Zooms that said, I’ve knocked this ad on. I’ve just used AI, and they’ve put it people’s production websites, and they’ve stated it in a public forum that I’ve been a part of, Derek. I haven’t got the camera on, but I’m just smacking my head on a table. I’m not an active developer, and I just think, Where are you living, mate? This is going to bite you on the ass, and it’s coming soon. But there we go.
[00:58:56.770] – Derek Ashauer,
I think the mini utility things, making a mini plugin that’s just a standalone, its own plugin, I think AI can actually do a pretty good job of that. Say you need a plugin that just solves this one particular problem for a client. And I think that is a great way to go about it, to do something like that.
[00:59:22.020] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, there’s.
[00:59:22.690] – Derek Ashauer,
I think, like I said, my current AI remote, so to speak, for conversion Bridge, specifically, is how hard it is to connect these different systems, to get it to work with WordPress, to get it to work with your analytics platform to also get it to work with the plugin that you’re trying to do, to know when a certain form is submitted or when that happens properly and all this stuff, to actually get it accurate is a challenge to do it right and to all the detailed nuance of various things. So I think there’s a bit of a moat because of the complexity. I think AI can definitely create its own stand-alone little thing. Here’s my example is, the other day, this year, one of my goals is to get better at marketing, which one reason why I’m here on this podcast today. But I created a list of 15 different things. And one of the challenges for me in marketing has always been, there’s this list of things that I’ve put together. What do I work on next? I don’t know what’s going to be the best I get overwhelmed and end up doing nothing.
[01:00:33.450] – Derek Ashauer,
So what I did is I was like, I just want something to decide for me. So my idea was, I’m just going to close my eyes and pick something literally on the list, pick something and just do it, whatever it is. It doesn’t matter. And I was like, well, it’d be fun. Let’s go if we created a little spinner, just a little tool that goes through all the different things and then goes spin, spin, spin, pop. Here’s the one to work on. So I asked AI, can you create a spinner? Here’s my 15 different tasks. And it created it for me. It created in 30 seconds. It was fantastic. So doing something like that is wonderful. People have no development experience. You want to create a fun little tool like that. They’re learning how awesome and cool it is to learn about how to code something. And I see it like my son and I, I’ve been trying to get him into Minecraft coding and just showing him about when he was just like, wait, I can get it to do what now? When I throw this one little thing, it can blow up 500 blocks wide and do this cool.
[01:01:24.520] – Derek Ashauer,
He’s like, I open. If I just change this one little bit of code, I can have it do that. It’s AI is introducing people to that same thing of what the power of code really is. It’s no longer this mystical thing. They can actually see, okay, this is what it is. And when they look at it, because I learned, when I learned coding, it was just looking at code, and it just made sense to me, and I understood what was going on and what they were doing and why. And so people are getting to do that, see the code, and they go, yeah, it’s cool. And I think the idea of, I’m absolutely certain, on the App Store, there’s going to be something like, I want a to-do app that does this, but does it in this very specific way that I want it to do it. If we all have the women in our lives who have their pen and paper calendars or how they keep track of their notebooks and things like that. They’re like, Well, I want it to look a very specific way or be organized a very specific way. Well, now you can just ask AI to create an app for your phone that works exactly how you want it to work, not necessarily how some other app developer has decided your to-do app should work, or your note-taking app or things like that.
[01:02:36.110] – Derek Ashauer,
And that’s an interesting world that we’re coming up to. We could just be like, Hey, AI, can you create this note calendar type app where on these days this happens and the button is purple, and when I hit this, this happens, and have it- Oh, even more choice. Customs, even more choice.
[01:02:55.930] – Jonathan Denwood
It makes WordPress look simplistic. On On to our last question, one of my favorite, and it’s my interviewee’s favorite because it means that this torture is ending. If you had your own time machine, HD Wells, and you could travel back to the beginning of your career, what little snippet of advice would you love to give yourself?
[01:03:30.550] – Derek Ashauer,
The biggest thing I would say is to find a better balance between personal and work life. I think for me personally, I wake up too often as a solopreneur, working for just myself. And for a long while, I was the sole provider. And so it put a lot of stress and strain on things. And I let that take over my mental health, my time, my mental energy, and all that stuff. I think in some ways, it definitely spurred me on to get to where I’m at now, to have a level of comfortable income. I’m not a millionaire or anything, but living comfortably and stuff. But also, I think I could have balanced that out a lot better and made better time of when my kids were younger to drop in the middle of the day to stop what I was doing and just go hang out with them for a while and get those couple hours in to go to the park or do whatever. But I always felt very pressured to continue working. I couldn’t let anything slip by. And so I did miss some of those opportunities, even though I worked from home.
[01:04:46.570] – Derek Ashauer,
And for myself, I never really took full advantage. And even to this day, it’s still a struggle to take full advantage of those freedoms that supposedly are part of this way of working.
[01:05:00.100] – Jonathan Denwood
I think you put that well, but I think also you’ve been a bit hard on yourself. You seem very calm, Derek.
[01:05:06.220] – Derek Ashauer,
It’s been a 20-year journey, and I’m much better at it right now.
[01:05:09.520] – Jonathan Denwood
Because I’m bonkers, I’m totally a nut, and I wasn’t. It’s been in web development that’s done it to me, Derek. But lots end up like me, actually, but you seemed very calm, so I think you’ve done a reasonable job. Derek, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. You have to come back later on in the year. We can have another chat. What’s the best way for people to find out about Conversion Bridge? And maybe your own thoughts. I don’t know if you have a regular blog as well, or is it But let’s start with Conversion Bridge. What’s the best way to find out more about it?
[01:05:49.630] – Derek Ashauer,
Yeah, you can visit conversionbridgewp. Com. That’s where you can learn about everything, about the product, of course. And then if you want to follow me on Twitter, at Derek Aschauer, I’m pretty active on there and constantly talking about what I’m working on, what my challenges are, where I’m going, why. It’s doing the build in public thing. And so keep up on my journey. Sometimes it’s random things about my soccer and other things, my hobbies and things like that.
[01:06:16.070] – Jonathan Denwood
Are you into soccer? I’m warming to you again. There you go.
[01:06:19.770] – Derek Ashauer,
Oh, yeah. I’ve been playing soccer since I was six, and I actually have a game tonight.
[01:06:23.790] – Jonathan Denwood
The beautiful game. There we go. There we are. All right, we’re going to wrap it up. Kirk was not able to join me. He’s traveling. He’s at a conference, a speaker at a power sport conference. But hopefully, you will be back next week. We’ve got some great guests like Derek. I’m amazed at the quality of people that agreed to come on the show. It’s been a pleasure this episode. Hopefully, we’re giving you some great insights about building a great plugin business. Wordpress will be back next week, my beloved tribe. See you soon. Bye.
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