We Discuss The Challenges of Building a Real Online Community in 2025
With Special Guest Casey Woo, The Founder & CEO of The Operators Guild
Casey Woo is a public market investor turned proven multi-stage, high-growth technology COO/CFO with over 20 years of experience at high-growth startups. I’ve seen a lot, aged a lot, and love it a lot… I also lead a community of over 1,200 of the world’s top operators (@Operators Guild) and invest (@FOG Ventures).
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The Show’s Main Transcript
[00:00:00.360] – Jonathan Denwood
Welcome back, folks, to the WP Tonic Show. This is episode 980. In this episode, we’ve got a fantastic guest. We’ve got Casey Wu with us. He’s the founder and CEO of Operators Guild. It’s a great community for online professionals and people with enormous knowledge in building SaaS products and more. He also has a load of knowledge himself. Casey, would you like to give the tribe a quick 10- 15 second intro? Then, when we move into the main part of the show, we can delve into your background in a bit more detail.
[00:00:53.700] – Casey Woo
Yeah, absolutely. The quick background is I was in the military. Then I went to Wall Street in New York and realized in Wall Street, as amazing as that profession is, it wasn’t for me. And for me, it was being a builder. So then I switched to the Bay Area. I’ve done six different tech startups. And in doing so, I founded a community and an investing group of whom I call the new generation and a new profession called Scalers. We are early-stage hyper generalists, which has never been really needed before until tech exploded onto the scene. I live in the Bay Area, and I’m a proud dad of three beautiful kids.
[00:01:41.700] – Jonathan Denwood
Oh, well, busy man. I’ve got my Great co-host with me, Kurt. Would you like to introduce yourself to the new listeners and viewers?
[00:01:50.380] – Kurt von Ahnen
Indeed, as things stand, Jonathan, my name is Kurt von Annen. I own a company called Manana Nomas. We’re based here in Kansas, and we also work directly with the folks at WP Tonic.
[00:02:00.000] – Jonathan Denwood
It should be a fantastic interview. I’ve been looking forward to it. But before we go into the meat and potatoes, I got a message from one of our major sponsors. We will be back in a few moments, folks. Three, two, one. We’re coming back, folks. I also love to tell you about a new sponsor. They’re with us for the month. It’s mastery. Com. They’re a new learning management system. Have I butchered the name completely, Kurt?
[00:02:34.080] – Kurt von Ahnen
I think maybe you have.
[00:02:35.460] – Jonathan Denwood
I think it’s Masterio, I’m sure of it. Masterio. Masterio. It’s a fantastic new learning management system plugin. The free product includes Stripe and PayPal integration as part of it. That’s with the free product. Then they got some pro versions. It looks really fantastic. The links to it will be included in the show notes. I highly recommend it. Take a look at it and see if it will work with your clients. Like I say, mustracey.com. Like I say, a new learning management system. Let’s go into it. We had a bit of your intro, so how did you get into the army? What led you to go into the army forces?
[00:03:37.360] – Casey Woo
I don’t get that question as much on these shows. I enjoy it. They didn’t just skip to the tech part. This is going to be a very honest, yet embarrassing, answer. I was an overachieving kid in academics. I was a valedictorian. I performed well and was expected to attend Ivy League schools. I applied there, but I was also interested in a school called West Point. My uncle, I don’t know where, I remember in Chinese, Have you heard of West Point? And just the way he said it was so revered and admired. And I looked into it, and Long story short, it just looked more badass. It’s like Navy Seals jumping out. I mean, that is just so hardcore. I want to do it. I want to do that. I never planned to join the military. So I’m smart, but not smart. It’s just like, wait, you know that’s the military. This is not summer camp. This is the real deal. So it’s also a leadership institution. I love people is what I realized. I love teams. I love being with people. And so, yeah, so I did it because it was different and badass.
[00:04:54.820] – Kurt von Ahnen
That’s when the commercials were badass, too.
[00:04:57.700] – Casey Woo
Yeah, right? I mean, it works. It worked. The 16-year-old me is like, oh.
[00:05:03.080] – Jonathan Denwood
But it’s amazing.
[00:05:04.490] – Casey Woo
It’s an amazing place.
[00:05:05.250] – Jonathan Denwood
So, how old were you when you went to West Point then?
[00:05:09.640] – Casey Woo
Eighteen, 17, 18.
[00:05:11.140] – Jonathan Denwood
So was it as a badass as your vision? Did the realities of West Point meet your fantasy? It’s frozen a little bit.
[00:05:23.830] – Casey Woo
No, my visions are pretty crazy. Sorry, you’re broke. No, the institution, I think it’s the I think it’s the oldest academic institution in America, or close to it. But basically, they’ve had hundreds of years to, or maybe a little over 100, don’t quote me, but they have had a long time to perfect the routine, the regimen. So there’s a lot of tradition there. And through that, they train you in ways that I think are very unique, specifically leadership orientation. But what I like about West Point as much is it’s well-rounded. Everyone there is pretty athletic. Everyone there has to do a lot of different things. So it wasn’t what I call a specialist school. There are I’m in schools that, which don’t get me wrong, is amazing, art school, where they’re really good. No, everyone is everything. That’s ironic now that I think about it, because the book I’m writing in the Operator’s Guild that I lead is the generalist. We are the people that have to do a lot of different things, and I think now that I look at it, that’s who I am.
[00:06:33.940] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, that’s why I thought I would ask you about this because that occurred to me. How long was you in the army then?
[00:06:43.740] – Casey Woo
I actually was in the military in the academy for two and a half years. The short story is halfway through. I said, I love West Point, love all stuff, but I actually wanted to do more things than just the army, which, like I said, should have thought about that before you signed up. I was doing pretty well at West Point, and it generally means you can pick the branch and you can control a bit where you’re going to go after you graduate. I wanted to do aviation, so that’s Black Hawks, Apaches. That’s more schooling, by the way. So just like fighter jets in Navy. So I’m a sophomore, so that’s junior senior, two years, and I think another seven and a half, not five. So we’re talking almost 10 years more. And it was just, wow, I was 20, and they said, yeah, you’re good. Keep going. And then when you’re 30, you can come out. When I’m like, 30? I can’t even keep a girlfriend around for a year, let alone do anything for 10 years. But more importantly, I wanted to… I had a lot of other interests. I wanted to do economics.
[00:07:48.570] – Casey Woo
I wanted to do finance. I’m like, What’s my opportunities to do other stuff than fly helicopters? They’re like, You can go to adult school, night school, and then study. Being the finance branch just closed that year. But you can go to a business school when you’re 30. We send you to Harvard Business School. And I was like… So it didn’t feel… I was too impatient, to be honest. And you have to leave. You have to I believe before your junior year starts, otherwise there’s penalties.
[00:08:20.060] – Jonathan Denwood
Yes. I know Sanhers, the British Army. Oh, yeah, it’s exactly right. They are penalties. You sign a contract. So It was the moment of truth. They were asking for you to sign the dotted line.
[00:08:36.120] – Casey Woo
Exactly what it is. West Pointe, Sanhers, same.
[00:08:40.410] – Jonathan Denwood
Yes. You decided then finance. What led to that decision and how long was you in finance?
[00:08:50.720] – Casey Woo
I went to Harvard. I have a weird hybrid undergrad, West Pointe and Harvard. Very different schools, but they’re all both very extreme. I mean, Harvard, I studied economics because I always thought, I don’t know what I want to do, but I don’t know, I’m supposed to make money. When you take a job, I don’t know, you’re supposed to… And I’m good with numbers. I’m not really artistic. I’m not great at sports.
[00:09:13.900] – Jonathan Denwood
Was your family more supportive about you going to- That’s another good question people don’t ask me.
[00:09:22.920] – Casey Woo
When I wanted to go to West Point, my mom started crying, and my dad was happy. He was happy because it’s all paid for.
[00:09:33.240] – Jonathan Denwood
What? Yes.
[00:09:34.380] – Casey Woo
It’s all paid for. Harvard, both are happy. They get to see me more. I’m not traveling the world, fighting wars. But yeah, they were I mean, they’re always been supportive. But I’ve always been the kid that’s done what I wanted to do. So a lot of people think, Do your parents push you? No, actually, my mom asked me to chill out. She’s like, You just work too hard. And she said, Hey, mom got Bs in school. It’s okay. You don’t always have to get As. So I realized a lot of it is self-motivated. I’m sorry. So finance, because your question, I went to economics, I studied economics. And when you’re in the economics program, it’s a very strong pressure to say, All right, what is the best thing you could do? There’s two steps to finance nirvana. Step one, go to an island called Manhattan and get an investment banking job at Goldman Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. That is like step one. Hard to do, fight, fight, fight, internship, interview, sell them with army stories, be different, whatever. Just got to get in. Okay, so you’re there. Amazing. Amazing crew of people, super Super talented.
[00:10:45.650] – Casey Woo
A lot of my close friends now, two years there. It’s almost like Boot Camp, very similar. It’s called Wall Street Boot Camp, in my opinion. And the second last step is get a hedge fund or private equity job and retire. Have you seen the big short, the It’s a great movie. It’s about a hedge fund man. So that was my path to finances. A good one. And that’s where I ended up, Wall Street.
[00:11:09.560] – Jonathan Denwood
So how long was you in Wall Street?
[00:11:12.580] – Casey Woo
Eight years.
[00:11:14.200] – Jonathan Denwood
So almost as long as what the army wanted from you.
[00:11:19.420] – Casey Woo
I couldn’t even get that far. Yeah, yeah. Almost as long. I couldn’t even get…
[00:11:22.560] – Jonathan Denwood
I couldn’t even do that. So you decided after eight years that Wall Street was getting a little bit not your buzz. Is that about right? How long did that… That feeling that it was time to move on, how long did that take before?
[00:11:40.970] – Casey Woo
I had this amazing hedge fund job. I had a corner office overlooking Central Park. My office was bigger than my apartment. It was just amazing. I was like, wow, I feel so lucky, so So cool. Billions under management. Everyone wanted to take me out to steak dinner. It’s one of those things. You’re like, oh, my God. But I wasn’t, for some reason, motivated. I don’t know what it was. And that’s when I realized for the first time, for those listening, I never believed when people said, Find your passion, your fulfillment. I was like, Bullshit. It’s make money. That’s what it is. You make money, you make money, you’ll be happy. Oh, I make money. I wasn’t happy. So I proved to myself, wow, there’s more to just your bank account. And I realized over time, I missed people. So hedge funds, if you look at Big Short, the movie, he actually doesn’t interact with many people. So a hedge fund manager at public equities generally is a very lonely job. I’m sorry, not lonely. Solo. Some people are not lonely. Because it’s almost like a researcher. You know the PhD student They’re working on their own thesis, the stock thesis.
[00:13:02.690] – Casey Woo
They talk to analysts and stuff, but it’s really a lonely job, in my opinion. So I miss my team. So investment banking and military, I liked for some reason, but they are way harder and more gruff on paper than hedge funds. But you know why? Because it’s a team. So what I tell people is, don’t think of jobs just as your title or money. Think of the environment. Are you building? Are you transacting? Are you with a team? Are you by yourself? Very different. I am not someone that can be alone. I need to be with teams. You can see the energy I have when I talk to you guys. This is just who I am. So you shut me down and you put me in a beautiful office by myself, I go crazy. Anyways, also, public equity investing is generally more transactional. You’re not per se building anything. I mean, you’re building a portfolio, but you’re not building, right? I mean, maybe you’re building the company, but I wasn’t, right? You’re studying a stock. So lawyer, consultant, auditor, banker, transacts, and advises, which is fine. But remember, it’s transacting I actually advise, it’s not building.
[00:14:17.900] – Casey Woo
So then I realized I was a builder. And I realized that I Moonlighted for a VC who started to research and invest in startups. And I would sit across the table from founders and be like, wow, I love this guy’s passion. He could go do Wall Street. No, he wants to build this company. Jesus, he is courageous. And I love the energy. You’ve interviewed probably tons of founders.
[00:14:46.100] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, a few. Some are courageous and some are bonkers as hell. I think we’re going to talk about one that might be classified as totally bonkers, but I’m going to throw, I think it’s time. I wanted to delve a little bit into your background because I did some research on you. I’m going to throw the second question over to my patient co-host. Over to you, Kurt.
[00:15:11.320] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, Casey, I want to thank you for your transparency so far. I have some terms that I use. I think of the entrepreneurs curse, the experts curse, things that you think about. And it’s like, as you’re talking, I’m like, those are bubbling up, right? When I do consulting, I have a phrase when I’m teaching people about relationships. And I’m like, if you focus on the relationship, the transaction will happen naturally. So you need to focus on relationships over transactions. And then I hear you saying a very similar thing. Like, these positions are transactional, but you’re not building anything. And to me, the building is the relationship. It’s how we get things to move forward. But you got to remember, when I consult, I do retail service-oriented businesses. So that makes a lot more sense in my space. For you, what do you think are the major challenges? Because you had mentioned, oh, most people go right to technology. So I’m going to go right to technology. What do you think are some of the major challenges that you can share with building and developing this online community? And to be more clear, Jonathan and I do another show called the Membership Machine Show, where we give people a ton of advice on building online communities.
[00:16:25.930] – Kurt von Ahnen
But it’s really cool to have someone on the show that is demonstrably successful at it.
[00:16:32.120] – Casey Woo
I actually did not flag that. You guys run a thing that’s just for online communities. That’s amazing. No, I think there’s very few community builders, leaders in the world, by definition. And so when you meet one, You know when you meet one, right? Because it’s a very, very unique world. So, yeah, I would love to talk more about that. And I did realize my friends… Sometimes your friends tell you who you are, whatever you think you are, your friends will probably tell you better. And they’re like, you’re a community builder. And ever since they said that, I’m like, what do you mean? They’re like, you accidentally built seven communities. I have a divorce community. I’m divorced. I have a dad community. I have a festival concert community. I have an opera community. So anytime I do something, I do it with others. I find others, and I say, let’s do it together. And that’s just always been me. And so community is never something I thought I wanted to I just do. So happy to talk about all things community, especially online.
[00:17:37.320] – Kurt von Ahnen
So I guess to make the question more specific and approach, you have a concept. You’re like, I have a passion. You said concert and festivals, and I was like, I love music. I suck at it myself, but I love to take it in. I’m a consumer. You have an idea for, I want to do this thing, whatever this thing is. And then you’re like, I want to assemble I’ll a team of people to do this with me. Somehow or another, and we could look at, you could say, Tony Robbins, Russell Brunson. You just start pulling names off the Internet, right? Somehow they put a team together, but then that team exponentially increases into hundreds, if not more, of people that want to join in that community. And there’s got to be a shift or some paradigm moment where the momentum changes changes and picks up. What are the obstacles in getting to that moment? Or can you identify that moment?
[00:18:35.340] – Casey Woo
Are you referring to online community or in-person?
[00:18:38.080] – Kurt von Ahnen
I would struggle almost to say, I think they’re very intertwined. I personally think that a successful community has elements that are online, but also does the in-person festival, convention.
[00:18:56.780] – Casey Woo
Let me see how to I think I understand the question, which is how do you get the momentum to have a breakout community? Is that what you mean?
[00:19:06.860] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, you can assemble 12 people in a room that think it’s a great idea, but then how does it…
[00:19:12.840] – Casey Woo
Now, to be very fair to what I said, I really only have two communities, maybe really only one that’s broken out. The rest are my many friend communities that, to your point, are the 10 to 15. I do think this 10 number, whatever, is where it breaks. It’s very, very hard to build a breakout community. Very hard. I think to answer in many different ways, no particular order, one is authenticity. So to use the concert example, if I’m not really into concerts, that’s not going to work. You really need to understand and have a passion for whatever shared common interest is going For example, I’m a CFO, COO, and I built Operator’s Guild, which is a CFO, COO community. The legal community, no surprise, was started by a lawyer. The sales community was started by a salesperson. The salesperson tried to compete and build a CFO community, didn’t make it. Not because he’s not good. A mom’s group. Have you ever seen a dad run a mom’s group? Not possible. So the first thing is you have to be authentic to whatever it is. You have to stand for it, and people can read you real well.
[00:20:36.270] – Casey Woo
This is a real concert person, because what I’m saying is certain people build communities because they think it’ll make money. Oh, I’m going to build a concert community Because there’s a lot of demand. That’s great. But if you’re not fully in it and you will fully understand it, you will not build a big one. Okay, so that’s what. So one is the leadership. Now, Tony Robbins, I think, really believes in whatever. I don’t think he’s I’m faking it. I think he’s genuinely… Some people are really good at faking it. I’ll tell you that, but I can’t do that. I just can’t do that. And eventually, you’ll be discovered because the DNA and blood of a community comes from the top. Everything comes from the top. The company, Travis of Uber is a more aggressive personality. Uber was aggressive. The DNA flows. Okay, so that’s a really big one is who’s starting it? How authentic. The other is keeping at it. It takes forever to get that flywheel going. The trickiest part is the monetary part. Things cost money. So all of a sudden, if I said, Hey, you two, let’s do concerts. Hey, will you pay me $500 a year?
[00:21:44.620] – Casey Woo
You’re Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, why? What am I getting from you? I don’t know. We’ll get something eventually. No. So in the beginning, it’s free. It’s free? Yeah. Nothing’s free. So whoever is doing it is costing a lot of time. So the problem is keeping at it. How long are you going to do this free community for? How long are you going to lose money for? How long are you going to make very little when you could be at Amazon making more money? That is the trickiest part is the monetization. So the first phase is scale. The first phase is gaining enough people because one of the values of a community is the numbers. Different perspective, network effect, right? Two people is not really a network effect. 200 is. So the first phase is, can you get very specific on your persona and have density? So operators go start in San Francisco. You can’t just start 17 people, 17 cities. No, you need some proximity distance. So you do density, generally. Online, I think it’s interesting, but there’s time zone density, right? You don’t want people to wait. So anyway, the point is you get a very specific topic.
[00:22:56.240] – Casey Woo
Ours was scaling at early stage companies. And Know who you are not. Do not let in everyone. So the first crop is so important. And I got lucky, right? We were all a very similar type, high caliber, A-quality. And then was the value. The value was therapy. The value was solving questions. And we got lucky where everyone contributed. Then the last part is word of mouth. All of a sudden, community Let me start through. I know of this great group. Operator’s Guild is the only paid community that I’m aware of in the world that’s 100Xed organically. We don’t have a single salesperson. We’re going to market in motion. It was all word of mouth. So that’s where I got lucky because I think it was going to happen. I think this was a need. So the thing is there a need? Is there a need? Time is the most valuable thing people have now. And in this tech world, our time is being consumed by everything. So getting someone’s time is more and more difficult now. If there are seven communities that I love, I don’t have time for the seven communities. Think about that.
[00:24:11.120] – Casey Woo
I have to be the number one community to them that matters the most to them. So if you think about it, to get a community to break out, it has to be specific. If it’s too broad, the specific community will win.
[00:24:26.560] – Kurt von Ahnen
To your point, I think that a lot of creators and organizers really struggle with your last statement, and that is that specificity, right?
[00:24:36.560] – Casey Woo
Because of skills, counter to that.
[00:24:38.540] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, because they keep thinking, well, I have this other vertical, I have this other vertical, and it’s like, no, no, no, no, Why you’re diluting your audience? You’re not being focused. It’s one of my actual failures, right? And so I have a couple. One is the other thing that you mentioned, the stick-to-itiveness. I had multiple products and initiatives that I was early to market on, meaning I had this great idea and I built this awesome thing, but I didn’t have any customers for it. And then I lost patience and I turned it off. And then two years later, someone else did the exact same thing and became a millionaire, right? And you’re like, Oh, that was painful to watch. And so I went and did it again. So on my more recent project, I literally built it and it didn’t do anything for years, but I just kept it going, just kept it going, being patient. Everyone said, Turn it off, turn it off. I said, I I can’t. I can’t. I’ve done it before. I’m not going to do it again. And now this is the fifth year that it’s been out, and we finally have profit momentum after five years.
[00:25:39.480] – Casey Woo
That’s amazing.
[00:25:40.340] – Kurt von Ahnen
But-wow.
[00:25:41.120] – Casey Woo
Yeah, three to five years.
[00:25:42.780] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, very focused, very nicheed, very directed. But it took forever to get that in. And now we’re finally hitting that word of mouth stage you mentioned. But I don’t know how many creators have five years of patience to wait for something That’s exactly my point.
[00:26:01.740] – Casey Woo
My first thing about, in the beginning, it’s free or next to free. So that’s five years of their life. That’s opportunity cost. They could be getting a well-paying job also. Time. The time, it can only go one place.
[00:26:16.480] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, great feedback in there, Casey. I appreciate it. Jonathan, back to you.
[00:26:22.160] – Jonathan Denwood
I think it’s time for us to go for our middle break where we got some other sponsors, which we really appreciate We appreciate. We will be back in a few moments for the second half, which should be as good as the first half. We’ll see you soon, folks. Three, two, one. We’re coming back, folks. Before we go into the second half, I want to point out we We’ve got some great special offers from the sponsors, plus a created list of the best WordPress plugin services and other tools for SaaS builders. It’s really a fantastic free resource. You can get this by going over to wp-tonic. Com/deals, wp-tonic. Com/deals, and you can get all the free goodies there. What more could you ask for, my beloved tribe? Probably a lot more, but that’s all you’re going to get on that page. This is a fun question. Katie, I think it was about 18 months ago, I had the pleasure of speaking with David Siegel, the CEO of Meetup, and we kept in touch. I have to ask him to come back on the show. It was hilarious. I think he’s been on the show a couple of times, actually.
[00:27:42.040] – Jonathan Denwood
When he first came on the show, we discussed his experiences with WeWork and Adam Newman. He said that Adam was brilliant, but also totally bonkers. I mean, absolutely bonkers. You seem a very focused individual, even more than David. David is very focused. You ended up at WeWork. How much did you have to work with Adam, and what was your initial impressions of Adam?
[00:28:22.160] – Casey Woo
Oh, man. I met Adam earlier before I joined WeWork, but he is extremely… You know when he’s in the room. There’s an energy about him. He’s also 6’6. The first thing was, I remember we were negotiating something with him, and he’s quite the negotiator. There’s stereotypes. It’s like, he’s Israeli in the culture of negotiating. He’s like, Oh, okay. You can tell he’s very charismatic. He’s an incredible storyteller, which I think a lot of founders are, especially those are very successful at fundraising or starting a movement. They have something about them. At the end of the day, it sales, if you think about it. So the first impression is he’s obviously very different. You’ll never forget him. But that was before WeWork. When I met him, when I joined WeWork, I don’t think he remembered that we met. I’ll never forget this conversation. I was the regional CFO of the Western US and Canada. This was just after SoftBank invested. And then my CEO, we’re all regions, seven regions. He goes, Hi, Adam, meet Casey, our new regional CFO of the Western North America. So I wasn’t CFO, by the way, just be clear. I was a regional CFO.
[00:29:50.660] – Casey Woo
And he looks at me, he goes, Have you ever managed a $2 billion region? We were not that at the time. This is him being a founder. That’s going to go public. And it was direct, right? It was very… Now, my culture is also very direct. And Israeli And the public culture is also known to be very direct.
[00:30:16.590] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s one way of putting it. Yeah.
[00:30:18.290] – Casey Woo
And so then I said, No. Have you ever led a $16 billion public company? And he goes, and he just smiles. And that’s it. There was a respect of a challenge, where both of us, all of us, have never done what we’re about to do. And yeah, so he’s very direct. It was my first impression. It was very smart, very charismatic, and had a really, really strong vision that obviously attracted me there. I’m obviously, if you can tell, I’m an extrovert. I’m a community person. So we work is about people and communities.
[00:31:00.790] – Jonathan Denwood
When did you start to realize it was the other side of Adam, which I don’t know if you met or worked with David Siegel, but he said it was After the first couple of weeks, he saw a side of Adam where he realized it was a bit bonkers as well. Did you have that feeling?
[00:31:26.360] – Casey Woo
Yes. I think a lot of strong visionary There is big storytellers, to be honest, almost every time you hear them talk, there is a level of extreme. There’s a level of, I call it one plus one equals five.
[00:31:47.260] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, they’re talking up their book. You expect it, don’t you?
[00:31:50.900] – Casey Woo
Things just don’t make as much sense. For example, it was like, we need all the regions. We need to regionalize all the financials in a month. I’m like, wait, what? That takes nine months. Yeah, well, you got one month, right? So there’s a bonkersness to… I mean, you’ve seen Elon do this. Yeah, we’re just going to do this many Teslas by way, what? And they’re like, is he serious?
[00:32:15.600] – Jonathan Denwood
But there’s bonkersness and there’s bonkersness, isn’t it?
[00:32:19.580] – Casey Woo
Yeah.
[00:32:22.680] – Jonathan Denwood
Did you get a sense that it was on Bonker Plus, as I would say?
[00:32:29.600] – Casey Woo
I think when… And there’s certain things I cannot talk about.
[00:32:33.440] – Jonathan Denwood
No, of course. I’m already asking stuff that you’re comfortable. You’re already going to share that.
[00:32:39.840] – Casey Woo
I’m being selective because there’s a lot of things that… No, I think the part that became more disconnected was when you see the valuations we were raising at, it was disconnected because Because the amount of money we would take in would only give us at the run rate. This is all known. I’m going to make it up. It was like it would give us seven months of runway. But the valuation would require six years of doubling to justify it. Does that make sense? A valuation has a cost. So you have to match that with the money you to achieve that valuation. So the runway was too short to achieve, or basically, there’s no margin of error. And so as I looked at it more and more, I was like, How are we going to do this? Now, obviously, I didn’t have the power. I was at the regional level. At corporate, they raised money and they did their thing. Maybe they had a secret plan up their sleeve, a different business model. I don’t know. They have a lot of business models.
[00:33:57.100] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, David was quite scathing. He was quite It was an interesting interview because he was quite scathing about Adam in some ways, but very forgiving in others. He accepted his part of it. When it comes to Adam, obviously, he’s got this part of his experience was American, the Israeli, having dyslexia, not quite public about that, hasn’t he? Also, the element that his wife took in the business as well. All these factors, would you say, before we move on to the next question, because some people say that it was a total con from beginning to end. I don’t sense that myself. I have been merciless in taking the Mickey out of Adam and his wife, but I don’t sense, or do you think you got into it and it just got bigger and bigger, really.
[00:35:01.780] – Casey Woo
It’s that. No, I think actually this is one I do feel very strongly about. There are some people that have mixed up Wework with Theranos Or that type of stuff. Not at all. So there’s a difference between a product that’s a fraud and a really good product where it was mismanaged when it came to the finances. Wework is real. Wework is the leading global… I mean, it’s an incredible space. They exist today. And there’s many people who work there and love it. So no, that’s obvious. To your point, what got weird What got different was obviously the management of it, the speed. Now, I can’t comment. There’s obviously certain things he did or whatever that was questionable. So yes, that’s a separate matter than the business. The core of the business was a very simple idea that was very awesome, which is why do co-working spaces have to be boring? Why can’t it be more communal? Why does it have to be a weird hospital? We’re no one talks to each other. Exactly. Why can’t it be more loungey space and connecting in relationships? And it worked. So I think what’s sad is if we had managed the pacing of it better, It would have been very successful.
[00:36:32.600] – Casey Woo
That’s the other thing. It’s still billions of dollars. It’s not a failure. It was a failure in the sense of expectations and what was raised.
[00:36:43.700] – Jonathan Denwood
Before we move on to the next question, I think what you’re saying, I’m going to put this to because in some ways I’m putting words into your mouth. I sense by what you just said that you feel that Adam in some ways was his worst enemy in some ways.
[00:36:59.460] – Casey Woo
I I actually think stock bank. Because you actually think about it, when I asked, Wait, so why are we growing at that speed? Or why is this the metric? They said, That’s what the board wants us to do. So we were, air quote, following orders. I mean, these are our investors. The board manages us. So it wasn’t like the board said one thing and we just… So SoftBank was the main governance. And it was them and Adam who agreed, right? He’s going to They tell Adam, the CEO, how he’s going to get rewarded. And it was growth, not profit. Guess what we did? Grow. Because the orders were to grow. I would say, no. So grow square foot, not profit per square foot. It depends on what you measure. If you measure square footage, that’s a very different measurement. I’m being very simple here. But the point is, the orders were to grow crazy fast and to have profit secondary, not first. So in a weird way, who was also enabling the board? Now, not all board members create equal, right? Some boards, they didn’t have the voting power, whatever. But to me, it is a combination of the people who have the governance.
[00:38:39.220] – Casey Woo
And of course, the people who have governance is Adam and Masa, meaning it wasn’t Adam alone. Here’s my thing. If Masa said, Profit, I want you to become profitable, and then I’ll give you a lot more money, I think things would have been different.
[00:38:57.580] – Jonathan Denwood
All right.
[00:38:58.580] – Casey Woo
But he said, No, just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, and then, well, it could have worked, but that was a much bigger bet. So I think it was not just Adam.
[00:39:08.060] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, thanks for that. That’s a new perspective for me to think about. I see precisely where you’re coming from, actually. Over to you, Kurt.
[00:39:17.260] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, Casey, I always have the job of switching gears. That’s my role on the show. And so the gear we’re going to switch to in this question has really to do with AI, but it’s a different perspective than we’ve We’ve come from recently. For the last year, we’ve said, oh, AI this, AI that, AI the other. But we’re starting to feel like there’s maybe a bubble coming, right? And you seem to have some experience with organizations and have some maybe bigger world thoughts. Where do you sit with the possibility that there’s an AI bubble or funkiness connected to the whole OpenAI and Sam Altman and some of the things he’s been up to?
[00:40:04.440] – Casey Woo
It’s interesting the definition of bubble. I’ll define it as getting ahead of actual value, or priced ahead of… I’m trying to answer very succinctly. I think AI is very, very real. I think it’s… So So I think in analogies. So pardon me if… I think AI is equivalent to when the atomic bomb was developed. Before that, it was conventional. Conventional zeros and ones in software. Then all of a sudden, this orders of magnitude, greater weaponry, in this case, technology, was discovered. It is It’s like, boom, right? It was so nonlinear. And just like, nuclear technology changed the world, so is this in a major way. One of them is power. It costs a lot of money to do AI. It costs a lot of money to develop nuclear bombs, right? So you have the countries, right? You have the same type of… What’s a little different is the technology is being shared with everyone. So the US wasn’t sharing its secrets with everyone, right? People had to develop their ChatGPT, you just pay them 20 bucks a month. Boom. And you can build your own incredibly billion dollar-backed technology superintelligence. So what’s different is, if you think about technology, does it change behavior?
[00:41:57.460] – Casey Woo
Does it add value? Absolutely. Oh, my God. Absolutely. If anyone disagrees with that, there’s robots who are folding clothes right now. I just summarized the entire vomit that I did in two seconds. I was like, wow, now that’s a way better summary. Saving me time so I can spend time with my kids. There’s real, real value, full stop.
[00:42:21.540] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:22.680] – Casey Woo
So in that sense, I don’t think it’s a bubble. I think what is a bubble could be the certain valuations for certain companies. But the part that’s not a bubble is AI is different in the sense that the market size it deals with is way larger than any other market size. And I can see this. Why? Growth. So what’s not a bubble is there’s a company I will leave on name that is adding one million of incremental ARR a day. The average price point is, I want to say $400 a year. So they’re not selling $100,000 contracts. That is how fast, that’s how big their market is, is the conversions coming in is a million A day. So that is real. When people are actually… So you know what’s a bubble? Is when there’s no money being transacted. Like no, Yahoo, eyeballs. No, no, no, no. People are paying. So you’re actually seeing revenue. So The records are being broken. I think one company reached 500 million from almost a dead start in 17 months. Wow. So think about that. That is not the same as it’s always been. So that does justify bigger valuations.
[00:43:48.570] – Casey Woo
Now, the question is, how big? So the bubbleish part would be, I think it’s worth a trillion, but it’s really worth 500 billion. You So size and scale are all there. The other part is there’s going to be a lot of what I call a graveyard. So it’s very easy to start an AI business now because for 20 bucks a month, air quote, you can just pipe in. And everything’s easier now. Coding is easier, right? So that’s great. You can innovate a lot, Pastor. The issue is when you have more people trying, you have a lot more lotto tickets. There’s only a certain amount of customers in the world. So not everyone can win. So there’s going to be a lot of Instead of 10 new companies in the past trying for the same thing, it’s 50. But that also means way more people don’t make it.
[00:44:39.860] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, when you’re in our space, you can just see it through your own feed. When you’re on social media and you’re getting fed the ads, the ads were ChatGPT, $20 a month, right? The ads were Claude, $20 a month. And now the ads are this new WhizzyWig AI agent tool that has 2,500 tools, and it’s a lifetime deal at 60 bucks. And you’re going, that seems like we’ve already… How quickly we went from… A PC used to be $5,000, and now you can invest buy and buy it for 300 bucks. But it took decades for that price model to come into that perspective. And with AI, we’ve seen it go from here to here in a year or 18 months, and it’s pretty shocking.
[00:45:32.100] – Casey Woo
It’s because of the dynamics I discussed, which is the powerful technology is cheaper for everyone now. So the cost of starting a product is less. That means you can charge less. Then the other factor is there’s more competitors. So what happens when you have more competitors? Price goes down. We have too much choice. To your point, I bundle 500 things. I’ll bundle a thousand things. The consumer is winning. Now, consumer is also getting completely drowned. But we have more choice than ever. This phone is so powerful. The amount of… I lost my phone for a day. I went nuts. I literally couldn’t call an Uber. I I didn’t check my babysit. I was like, I didn’t realize the power we have as a consumer, as an individual. So to get that consumer’s time, I mentioned time. Which app am I looking at? I have a thousand apps. Instagram, is number one, Gmail. Wow. To be that is extremely hard. So there’s a lot of failure. And by the way, you have to get my money, too. Not just my attention. You have to get my money. Or attention can be money, right? That’s Facebook. But think about it.
[00:46:45.860] – Casey Woo
There’s only so much 24 hours in a day, and we have so much. I can go to concert tomorrow. I can go do this. I can go, oh, my God, too much choice. So you just think about it visually, it’s massively crowded, highly competitive, a lot of deaths, and those who win, win big.
[00:47:03.940] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah. Win, real big.
[00:47:05.770] – Casey Woo
So the extremes are happening now.
[00:47:08.700] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, and your reference to time multiple times in this particular interview, for me, is a dichotomy way of thinking, two very extreme things because, yeah, there’s so many options. Time is so valuable. But at no time in my adult life do I remember people just sitting and mindlessly scrolling for two or three hours on something silly. And so So on one hand, time is exponentially more valuable, but it’s exponentially more squandered than it’s ever been.
[00:47:36.600] – Casey Woo
Well, to use the same analogy for different is someone told me social media is like the discovery of the nuclear weapon. So what they’re saying is humans innovate. Generally, they have good intentions, right? Generally, selfish, but good intentions. What happens is we discover something something, and then it gets unleashed and we cannot put it back. For example, the steam engine or industrial. It’s like, whoa. And so cars are great. Cars are pollutants. Then you find nuclear technology. There’s nuclear reactors that are amazingly helpful to power the world, and then they also kill and do genocide. But we can’t pull it back. Once the technology is discovered, we cannot pull it back. Good is using it, bad is using AI. Social media. Using for good. There are people now that can make money that could not make money before because they can add value and create. It’s no longer about the corporations.
[00:48:44.360] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah.
[00:48:45.000] – Casey Woo
And then there’s a lot of bad with social media. I mean, I have three children. They are addicted as all hell. I’m saying is the same thing. So it’s good and bad. Unleashed, oh, God, we can’t put it back. Social media, unleashed, what is happening? So hopefully, I’m an optimist that as humanity, we’re more good than bad. But the bad is always there. And that’s going to be the same with AI.
[00:49:13.380] – Kurt von Ahnen
Nice. Very insightful. Jonathan?
[00:49:16.260] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, we got to wrap up the podcast part of the show because Kurt’s got a hard deadline at 10: 00. Can you stay on for another 10 minutes or do you have to leave Cassie?
[00:49:27.460] – Casey Woo
I think I’m good.
[00:49:28.990] – Jonathan Denwood
All right, because they I’d like to go through a couple of other questions, but we’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show, but you’ll be able to hear the whole interview on the WP Tonic YouTube channel. If you like the whole show, think about subscribing to that. Got a ton of That’s a lot of content on there. So, Cassie, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and what you’re up to?
[00:49:53.280] – Casey Woo
Yeah, LinkedIn is great. If I’m in LinkedIn, you can also, if you’re interested in the Operators’ Guild and you’re an operator, you’re or an elite generalist at early stage, please sign up for Operators Guild, or you can ping me, my team, it’s all there. Angel investing, I think, is extremely good way of learning about what’s going on in the world. Fogg Ventures is the investing arm of O. G. Fogg stands for Four Operators Guild. We have some of the most elite tier one companies syndicated there. There’s no cost to actually invest, but you get You get to see the best deals. Obviously, you got to be confidential about it. But just reading who are the leading players tells you a lot about the world. So my job is to basically help operators navigate this crazy world as a profession and as a community.
[00:50:46.240] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. And Kurt, what’s the best way for people to find more about you and what you’re up to?
[00:50:52.340] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, like Casey, I try to be on LinkedIn almost every day. So if you want to make a personal connection, that’s the spot to do it. And then for business, it’s mañana no más.
[00:51:01.100] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. And if you really enjoyed this interview, one way you can support the show is if you’re listening on your phone and listening either on Spotify or iTunes, it’s really easy to leave us a review. Those reviews are really important because the podcast is then shown to a load of other new people who can then benefit from our guests and their wisdom. If you could leave us a review, like I on Spotify iTunes. That would really help, folks. We will be back next week with another great interview. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye. Let’s go on to the next part of the show. What are some of the AI tools and also the products that might have been pitched to you or through your network that have come on your radar over the last couple of months that really got you a little bit excited? Anything that you could share with us?
[00:52:08.380] – Casey Woo
I mean, there’s the usual ones people know about, obviously ChatGPT, Gamma, there’s a member of OG. It’s for presentations, air presentations. Harvey is for legal. I love Reelit, the CFO tech stack. So Reelit is doing We’re doing incredible things in the ERP world. So ERP is the general ledger, so accounting, so B2B. So obviously it’s less consumer-ish, but I think it’s incredible. There’s a whole bunch of other CFOs, new future Titans coming. I can keep listing, but I think that in general, what’s happening is, what I like is to see the application layer build for very specific use cases. And that’s really nice to see that there’s a use case case study for that that is very specific and well done and high value for a certain persona.
[00:53:17.020] – Jonathan Denwood
What was your response to the report by MIT about business to business? Obviously, it was like a little mini hand grenade when they dropped that report where it was saying that a lot of business to business, a lot of corporate companies that were utilizing AI wasn’t really seeing a clear return on the investment. What was your reaction to that report and the way it was reported?
[00:53:49.060] – Casey Woo
I didn’t read that report, but I’ve heard that a lot. I think… To me, it’s an expectations mismatch. We are in the first ending, top of the first ending of AI. We’re in the early, early days. So when you want to compare, I think it’s an expectations thing. They’re expecting some major change. Just give it a little time. If you don’t think it’s going to deliver impact, just give it a year. Once again, I don’t know what they’re measuring against. If they’re measuring against something very high in terms of what it’s supposed to do or expectations, well, yeah, it’s going to miss it. If you’re measuring against replacing a human, not yet.
[00:54:36.280] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I think the industry in itself, and Sam Altman is the poster child, in my own opinion. I don’t think it’s done itself a lot of favors, but to me, there’s an enormous drive to… Because what you indicated in how you answered previous questions, is that there’s not a lot stopping new players. Really, you want to build up an enormous base of capital, then try and attempt to build a market position where you’re more defended. There seems to be an enormous rush to get capital and to get as much capital backers as you can. But Also, but on the other hand, you got OpenAI and ChatGPT. It’s got enormous brand recognition now. It’s become a verb. Let’s do a Zoom through COVID. Ai, it’s chat GVC. But I just want to put this to you. I’m no expert on it. I have got a couple, not close friends, but people that I can speak to that are AI scientists. These large learning models and scaling has achieved some amazing results. But there’s a lot of people in the AI industry that say that scaling, the return that you’re going to get through scaling has- Or diminish.
[00:56:24.370] – Jonathan Denwood
Plateaued to a certain level. Their Really, they do the gamble about looking at other AI technologies that might get this, what they call general intelligence, rather than focusing on your bite on what you were indicating, which was that second layer where you’re looking at Pacific industries, groups where Pacific elements of AI could get a return on the investment. What’s your views on what I’ve just outlined?
[00:57:05.540] – Casey Woo
I think if you see technology, there’s always going to be plateaus and then re-accelerations, plateaus, re-accelerations. To me, what matters is the general direction. The general direction is, I just say it more factually, not as I wish for something, but AI was going to be more of the world. It’s when the Internet started, it doesn’t matter what plateau or not, it’s going to continue to That’s it. Or people say, oh, my privacy on Facebook, it’s going to go one way, less privacy. It’s like fighting gravity. So to me, people are just looking at these very close in time, it’s plateau It’s not towing right now. Okay. But if you pull out, it’s going up. It’s like a stock. If you look at day by day, oh, look, the stock is… But in general, it’s only going to go one way. It’s more usage, more power, more intelligence. How it’s going to be used? We don’t know. But it’s no different than every single… When the first car came out, only more cars. When the first plane came out, more planes. There’s not going to be this, oh, I guess we’ve done. We’re done with AI.
[00:58:16.160] – Casey Woo
I guess it’s plateaued. I guess we’re going to stop here. No, not going to happen. That I’m very confident about. So these people who are talking about plateau, okay. Here, what happens in nature is that it offsets. So when something If it gets too costly and you don’t get enough value, the cost goes down. So eventually, too, there’s the cost of GPUs, the cost of data start to decrease per GPU, right? Because we get more efficient. So all of a sudden, it starts to… Remember the whole cost per output, well, the cost of whatever you’re getting is going down, just like TVs. Tvs used to be $10,000. Now, they’re $200. So the cost of components, the cost starts to going down, and then it re-accelerates progress. So I think there’s a natural ebb and flow I love that. I’m not saying it goes forever, but I think we’re so early. To be able to say we’ve plateaued, I think is unlikely.
[00:59:10.780] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I think you pointed out a really interesting concept there. But on the other hand, it just really depends. Obviously, it’s logical if you’ve used certain technology and you’ve just utilized, like I said, I’m not an expert on it, but you just very large data models and very sophisticated mathematics, and you utilize pure computer power to scale. If you can build out more scale, you’re going to get a better result. But other experts, they say that, and it’s difficult for me to make an assessment because I’m not in that industry, that scaling, yeah, that could build a much bigger data center, they can throw a lot more resources, but they’re saying that the technologies reach the limit. I think what you’re saying is that you’re pretty confident there will be other technologies that they will be able to utilize on that present plateau and accelerate again. Is that the crux of your- That’s exactly right.
[01:00:27.820] – Casey Woo
I think it’s just ebb and flow. Ebb and flow.
[01:00:30.710] – Jonathan Denwood
I think that’s what they’re betting on, isn’t it?
[01:00:33.060] – Casey Woo
Just ebb and flow. Yeah, of course it’s going to plateau. It needs to rest a bit. Jesus, it’s advanced pretty quickly. Of course things plateau here and there. In life, everything slows a little bit. But I think what they’re trying to say potentially is that it’s done. It’s plateau. This is it. I mean, come on.
[01:00:54.000] – Jonathan Denwood
It really does depend if they can bolt on other technologies or other concepts upon what I personally do believe that what I’ve read that scaling has reached a plateau. They’re just making a bet. What’s your reaction to the environmental consequences of all this? Basically, building a load of new data centers and the electricity and building a gas-fired energy energy units or looking at nuclear that will take at least 10 years to come online. Then you’ve got the actual water consequences of what these data centers need. This doesn’t seem to be on the radar a lot. Have you got any thoughts on that?
[01:01:47.900] – Casey Woo
No, I definitely have heard this, and I’m not very close to it, but absolutely, I think resource consumption is something that is very important. As I was As I mentioned before, I think with all powerful technologies, there’s good and bad. My hope and optimism is, hopefully, whenever mankind reaches some problem. My hope is that there’s an adjustment. Now, obviously, we’ve not done the greatest job in history of preventing everything. But my point is, if we run into a resource issue, generally speaking, there’s an incentive to develop more efficient things that lead less resources. For example, electric cars. When fossil fuels, all that were becoming an issue or polluting, there was an incentive to develop electric cars. I think whatever it is, the usage of water, et cetera, my hope is people say this cannot continue. What happens is new technology. Right now, our current technology takes up a lot of electricity per whatever. Current. But we’ve all seen in technology, things get more efficient. Now, the question is how fast? That’s my answer is, yes, all of that is very real. No different when automobile came out. I was like, Oh, my God, it’s going to use up a lot of things called fossil fuels.
[01:03:19.960] – Casey Woo
It’s also a resource that’s going to be consumed. That’s going to run out. Sure enough, we have electric. I think that’s just going to happen.
[01:03:28.640] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, you put the It’s the same thing about EV, electric cars, great. But obviously expanded enormously in China and to some extent on the coastal areas of North America and extensively in Europe. But in Europe, it really was based, apart from France, really based on Russian gas and oil supply. In China, the actual electricity for these electric cars is supplied by coal, mostly by coal, which is one of the most dirtiest energy mechanisms possible. How would you respond? It doesn’t seem, obviously, the Chinese government I’m only based on what I’ve read and heard, is they invest in a lot of money in energy nuclear. But like I say, we haven’t seen the end results. Most of that energy provision is done through At all.
[01:04:32.180] – Casey Woo
As I mentioned, I don’t think we do it perfectly. I don’t think we’ve done a great job.
[01:04:40.180] – Jonathan Denwood
I suppose what you’re saying is there is no alternative because obviously the worst. You got to look, it’s not perfect. That’s right.
[01:04:49.300] – Casey Woo
I’m more about what I call a pragmatist. When people keep spotting the issues, that’s fine. There are also solutions going on.
[01:04:58.400] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I’m English, so I’m bound. Yeah, but first of all, I think it’s very important for people to be calling these things out.
[01:05:07.580] – Casey Woo
Then I asked them, What do you think is going to happen? Mankind is going to die? Okay, yeah, that’s what they say. They think, eventually, what is it going to happen? It’s mankind’s potential. However, mankind will ultimately find another way to move forward. If the cold becomes a problem, you know what I’m saying? And I’m saying this in a flippant way. I’m saying we live in probably one of the most peaceful times in history. You take us to, I don’t know, 2000 years ago, it could be crusades, being the people being killed, and they thought the world was ending. We are actually in a relatively okay spot. Of course, there are very scary things like AI, nuclear. But I think at all times of mankind, there have been strife, there have been worries, and we figure it out. And of course, I think eventually there is an end to mankind, whatever it is, like the dinosaurs, whatever you want to believe.
[01:06:14.000] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, everything Everybody and everything does aim, doesn’t it? Yeah.
[01:06:18.310] – Casey Woo
I’m not sure if people think it will end within the next 100 years.
[01:06:20.740] – Kurt von Ahnen
Is that what they’re saying?
[01:06:24.140] – Casey Woo
So yeah, that’s all. All of these are true. Everything has its pros and cons, good and bad, and they’re just pointing them out. And this new one is going to be electricity needs, data center needs. But I do believe in mankind to innovate, whether it’s for profit or whatever, but to come up with a solution to move on. And the hope is that we don’t damage everything in the process. However, as I mentioned, social media has also benefited many things, despite its negative aspects. So it’s a very tricky… I think it’s just life. Focusing solely on doomsday or extreme optimism is not great.
[01:07:07.820] – Jonathan Denwood
I try and be pragmatic. Let’s go for the last question. If you had a time machine, H. G. Wells, or if you watch British television, your own TARDIS, and you could go back to the beginning of your career, is there any little whisper or anything you’d like to tell yourself? The one thing you can’t say is not coming on this podcast. Anything else you could say? So any little tip you would love to Obviously, investment tips would be pretty good.
[01:07:40.440] – Casey Woo
Buy a thing called Google, but buy something else. It’s got to be more spiritual. Yeah, I know. I’ve always been an extrovert, but I think that how much time I spend building relationships is something I wish I had spent more of earlier on doing. Obviously, as a kid, you’re in a cubicle, working, and not spending as much time building relationships as senior folks might. But I think that telling myself early on to focus on building good relationships, spending more time with others, and building great relationships, understanding, and learning from them would be what I would say.
[01:08:26.240] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, I think that’s fantastic advice. Casey, it’s been a fantastic interview. I think we’ve covered a wide range of topics.
[01:08:35.580] – Casey Woo
You’re great. Great questions.
[01:08:38.580] – Jonathan Denwood
Oh, thank you. I try and provide value for the people we’re interviewing. I think it’s a great time to wrap it up. Like I say, folks, we will be back next week with another great interview. We’ll see you soon. Bye.
[01:08:54.250] – Casey Woo
Thank you, Jonathan. I apologize, I’m running late. I didn’t realize I had a 10 o’clock.
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