We have a great interview with a very respected member of the WordPress community Bob Dunn, known as BobWP across the web, started his business in 1992 and spent over 25 years partnered with his wife providing marketing and design for large and small businesses.

He discovered WordPress in 2007 and started designing WordPress sites, while making the transformation into training. Now Judy and him push out tons of content via the blog and his Do the Woo podcast.

Bob seemed to like my English humor and we had an enjoyable/fun interview and for some reason I linked Bob with a happy old childhood memory of a British TV advert that I use to love to watch Captain Birdeye. Its probably because I see Bob a really as a friendly kind of ship captain type of who likes a good chat with a good quality Scotch!

Watch Our Great Interview with BobWP

Here’s A Full Transcript of The Interview 

JD: Hi there, folks. This is WP-Tonic: episode 110. We’ve got a fantastic guest for this show, folks. We’ve got Bob WP (Bob Dunn) joining us.

How are you doing Bob? Would you like to introduce yourself a bit more, Bob?

BD: I’m doing really good, and thanks for having me. I’ve been in the [web] business for a long time. I’ve done a lot of training over the years. That was kind of my focus for the last five years. So, a lot of one-on-one training with WordPress and coaching, and a lot of workshops out there. But lately, I’ve really been focusing more on the blog — although it’s always been around.

So my primary focus right now is on Bob WP — the blog — and our kind of new podcast ‘Do The Woo’. And just pushing out tons of content. That’s what I love doing. So, [I’m just] trying to make that happen.

JD: You surely are that, Bob. You’re a content machine. I’m going to let my beloved co-host — I’m waiting — I’m in excitement about how my co-host is going to choose to introduce himself.

Go on John, introduce yourself.

JL: Hello, my name is John Locke and I run a small WordPress web design company in Sacramento, California called Lockedown SEO.

JD: John had the much more interesting questions folks, so I’m going to let him ask the first question to Bob. Off you go.

JL: Ok, sure thing. So Bob, people in the WordPress community they know you had a really successful WordPress podcast before. And now you launched this new podcast, ‘Do The Woo‘.

What prompted you to shift away from covering more general aspects of WordPress to focusing down on WooCommerce?

BD: Yeah, it was interesting — because the other podcast was fun but there was a point where I just — I’ll be honest with you. I became bored with it.

I felt like I was kind of regurgitating everything I talked about on my blog, and it just wasn’t doing anything. And I’m not one to just say, “Okay, it’s got to get better. It’s got to get better.” I thought — “Is this reflective of my show?” You know? I’m not really quite as enthusiastic about it.

So I just thought, “Okay this is it. I’ve got to really rethink this. I want a podcast. I’m going to pull the plug. And I did that mid last year, I think. I just told everybody, “I don’t know. It’s going to happen. I have no idea where I’m going.”

I just let it simmer over — from mid last year to March of this year. A few things popped in my head, and every time and I was, “Erhm”. And I was getting more and more into WooCommerce and doing stuff with that. It wasn’t, like, a priority. I was looking around, and I was thinking, “Well you know, there’s no WooCommerce podcast out there. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. Maybe there’s a reason there’s no Woo podcast.”

So I talked to a couple of people at WooCommerce. and said, “What do you think about it?” And they gave me some feedback. They gave me some really good direction and ideas. And I said, “You know, I’m just going to go for it. Let’s see how this goes.”

Because I like to give it a try. So far, it’s been going really well. And I’m enjoying it. It’s interesting because I don’t consider myself an e-commerce expert. Because I haven’t been deep into it for years. But I just love bringing on these people that are the experts.

It’s really interesting mix of experts — [like] shop owners. [I’m] learning all sorts of stuff. Fun. Good times.

JL: Awesome. Jonathan, do you have a question?

JD: I was just thinking, as Bob was saying, enthusiasm — that’s not a word normally linked to me, is it John? But I suppose I’m English, aren’t I, Bob?

So enthusiasm is not expected from me, is it Bob?

[ Laughter ]

English sarcasm. Let’s go forth, Bob.

So I thought some of the interesting elements of your reply is [regarding] shop owners. So where do you think people go wrong [with ecommerce websites]? You’ve been interviewing a lot of people in this area. Where do you think some of the basic mistakes [are] on the owner’s side? That they make on their WooCommerce or ecommerce road to domination? What are some of the common website mistakes? You must have reflected on this a little bit.

BD: I think it’s really in the planning stages. It’s kind of across the board with websites I think — or anything business. I think people jump into it thinking it’s going to be easy.

[Thinking] it’s going to be, “I can just throw stuff online. I could start selling stuff. I’ve always created these funny little clay characters, and everybody’s going to love them, because everybody seems to like them when I talk about them. So once I get them online, everyone’s going to buy them.”

They don’t really take — I don’t want to say seriously — but they don’t take enough time to really think through what they’re doing. We have this kind of [mentality] in the internet, “Go out and make money. It’s fairly easy to do.” I mean, they hear that a lot.

So they think, “Yeah, I can do that. And with online courses with everything else that’s coming out, in that kind of e-commerce area — membership sites [are the] same thing.

Everybody’s doing it. Everybody says you can make tons of money, and it’s not much work — and I think that’s where the biggest challenge is. Because they get into it and they think, “Oh my god. I didn’t realize it was going to be this.”

JD: It’s just the normal horse crap you hear online?

BD: Yeah, exactly. That hasn’t changed and that’s going to continue.

JD: Just the normal endless list of parasites who want to get money out of you?

BD: Yeah, right. So it’s something. There’s other things here and there, but that really is a big one.

JD: No, there’s loads of people that tell you exactly what you want to hear even though it’s completely wrong isn’t it?

BD: Right, right, yeah.

JD: Or am I just being English cynicism? Or is it my age, Bob? Can you tell me, Bob?

BD: I think so. Me too. I get to be a cranky old fart, you know. Just kidding.

JD: So obviously planning is important, and like you say it’s something —  you could accuse me of that as much as anybody.

BD: Exactly.

JD: Because most battles are lost before they are even fought, aren’t they, Bob?

BD: Yeah.

JD: So we move on. What are some of the [things] on the client side — before we delve on the developer side — what are some of the things you’ve learned that you would advise that you got to get in place  — after you’ve done some planning for world domination for your shopping ecommerce solution, Bob?

BD: You know, WooCommerce is great. I think that platform [decision], you’ve got to really think through. Because there’s so many different platforms. So many different [options].

There are hosted platforms for ecommerce. There’s tools and plugins. There’s whatever [you need]. So you really need to look at all of those. I think that for them [clients] — a lot of times — they don’t look at the [long term effects of those decisions].  You can’t know everything that’s going to happen a year to three years down the road.

But you need to plan a little bit. You need to plan for that growth. You want to be able to bring in something — whether it’s whatever plug-in you’re using — whatever platform you’re using — bring in that idea, that okay, “In three months I’m hoping to do this, and in six months maybe I’ll be doing this. Maybe I’ll be adding this. All these different elements — whatever they are. Whatever you’re selling. I think that a lot of people don’t think long term.

So they get to a point and they think, “Well now I have to do this. Do I have to change everything? Is what I have in place going to work? Is it reinventing the wheel?”

And again, that’s something I’ve seen a lot when people come to me. Because they’re always at this point in time during the process, and they are coming to me saying, “Oh, I didn’t realize I should have been thinking —” And it’s like, “Okay.”

So it’s real interesting, because I’m not — you know, on the developer side, I’m not a developer. But I know enough to be dangerous. And I know enough to say at a certain point, [I need help].  A lot of them don’t. You know, they think they can do everything by themselves.

And if it’s a simple store, yeah okay, get it started, whatever. But there’s a whole [other aspect to it] — marketing and all that stuff over on one side. But then there’s a whole thing of — you’re building something that could be your livelihood. And this is an important piece [of that puzzle]. You don’t just go and say, “Ok, there’s a trashy empty building. I’m going to move my store into it, and I don’t really care, you know? There’s no windows or the plumbing doesn’t work or anything.”

So it’s the same thing with your website. I don’t recommend a lot of people building e-commerce sites by themselves. Get some kind of involvement with the developer. Get some involvement with the designer. — and all these different people. Because there’s just too many aspects that are important to muck up along the way.

JD: John’s got a lot of experience, I’ve got a fair amount.

BD: Oh, I’ll bet. I see him nodding there. Rolling his eyes. [laughs]

JD: I think one of the factors, Bob, is a lot of people start their e-commerce shop as a secondary business, which is great. Because they need the income. And there’s going to be a longer period [before it gets busy compared to what they anticipate].

And then there’s the dreaded problem of shipping. Shipping starts to become an increasing nightmare for those involved in e-commerce. Then there’s the white unicorn of drop shipping is mentioned. And a lot of people say that will solve all their problems.

Can you give some insight around [this subject], because shipping does seem to be a real problem. What’s your thoughts about drop shippers and around that?

BD: You know I really don’t get into that a lot of that part of it. Even when I coach people. I taught a lot of basic e-commerce workshops on WooCommerce. I would go through all the different elements, and whenever I came to shipping — whenever I came to taxes — I would tell people, ninety-nine percent of you at this point in time, don’t deal with it yourself. Get a professional to help you.

I mean, if you’re shipping one or two things, yeah, no big deal. But if you’re shipping a lot of stuff, there’s a lot of vendors out there that can help you. Like you said, there are different ways that your life will become a lot simpler without having to deal with that. And the same with the taxes. You know, taxes are a nightmare.

I tell everyone, “I’m not going to tell you how to set up taxes in WooCommerce. I don’t even want to know how to set up taxes.” I would rather get somebody that knows what the heck they’re doing. So I don’t get put in jail or something.

JD: The Internal Revenue Service they aren’t known for their warmth and kindness, are they, Bob? You don’t really want to mess with them.

Ask another question John.

JL: Yeah, definitely.

So I’m glad you mentioned that taxes and shipping are really complicated aspects of the whole ecommerce site. And again you’re talking about people that start this as a secondary job, or as a secondary source income. And they’re thinking, “Okay, I can grow this into something.”

Do you find when you’re consulting with people about e-commerce sites that they’re often surprised by how complex these aspects are — in addition to other things like product photography?

What things really take people by surprise?

BD: It is the shipping and the taxes. The shipping is a big one. Because I don’t know how many people have told me, “Well, we have 40 products, and they all have to go in this box. And they have to have a certain pack —” And they start going down this list.

I was talking to Patrick Rauland (of WooCommerce) in one of my first episodes and he said, “People really need in the beginning to go and talk to the people at the post office. Talk to these [different people in the shipping chain] and find out what is involved here. Because they don’t. They don’t.

To me it seems obvious, but there’s a lot of people that just [don’t realize]. It does — it surprises them. They say, “Wow, I didn’t realize shipping was going to be like this.”

Or they get in and look at the taxes, and [they go] “What? I sell to every city in the United States, and I got the VAT tax, and I’ve got all these other things. And we have this little box here. How do I even start?”

So yeah, there’s huge surprises. And those are — I think those are the two biggest. There’s a bit of just overall what it takes to set it up — I mean, that’s kind of — I don’t want to say a no-brainer. But they get in and think it might be a lot simpler [than it really is]. Or they have very simple needs, and they get into something that’s way more complicated than they need. They maybe could have used a different plug-in that could have downloaded two items.

Instead they go this big route. And they think, “Oh, I’ve got to put all this in.” And then they bury themselves in a hole. But the shipping and taxes are big surprises for a lot of people. “I have to collect taxes?”, they say.

JD: Shocking. Awful, isn’t it? Now you’re going to have give some of that to the Internal Revenue Service.

I think the other thing — whenever I’ve done it — I don’t know if John’s the same — I’ll get to this pretty quick now — [is they say] “What? Doesn’t it automatically sync with QuickBooks? Doesn’t it sync automatically with my accounting system?”

[The answer is] well actually no, it doesn’t. And this could be a slight problem.

I think that’s a thing if you’re a developer or a consultant — the reality of trying to get something consistently to communicate with QuickBooks isn’t going to be as easy as they thought. Would you agree, Bob?

BD: Oh yeah. CRMs are another thing. I’ve heard more people say, “I can’t hook this into my CRM. I thought it would be just so simple to do.” That integration is not always as they had expected for sure.

JD: Go on John, fire away.

JL: Sure thing. So when it comes to the actual layout of an e-commerce site, what characteristics do you see in websites that are successful that are different from sites that could be successful, but that are not?

BD: I think it really boils down to making sure your navigation is good. I mean, just making sure people can find things easily. Some people just put too much stuff [on the page]. You know, too many navigation [elements].

People don’t know where to even start. I think another thing is — and I’ve talked to a few people about this, even on my podcast — everybody feels like they need to put all their products on the home page.

So it’s like, when they land on the home page, “Here is everything we sell.”

There’s all this depth of whatever. And you’re going down a rabbit hole. Where you need to really not overwhelm your customer, because they’re going to search. Hopefully they will search, and they will be able to navigate their way in. I think that with small shops — we’ve been talking a lot about this too — is bring up the whole thing of, this is kind of our story.

Put a little bit more personality into it than just saying, “Here are my hundred and fifty products. Look at them.” type of thing. So it’s really overwhelming to the user when they get there and trying to avoid that.

I was just talking to somebody today in an interview. [And they said] “Avoid that and be really careful with pop-ups and all this other stuff that everybody is so excited about.” I went on a site just recently. Somebody said, “Please go look at this e-commerce site, and tell me what you think.”

I didn’t even ask him what he sold or anything. And I got on this site and before I could even take in my first breath, a pop-up came up and asked me to join this newsletter. And I didn’t even know what his site was about. I mean, I’m looking, trying to peek behind the pop-up, and I’m thinking “Whoa!”

So I think it’s just making that user experience as easy as possible. I wish there was a magic bullet. But I think that people really need to test it. And don’t overwhelm the user.

JD: That’s great, Bob. I think we’re going to go for our break, folks. When we come back, we’re going to learn more about e-commerce from Bob WP, and learn about some of the things that influenced in his journey. Back in a minute, folks.

We’re coming back.

We’re talking all things e-commerce with Bob WP. It’s been a great discussion.

So John, ask Bob about some of the things that influenced him and some of the questions you’ve got ready around that area.

JL: Sure thing. I know we talked earlier or and you said that there are a couple things that just make people successful. Being flexible and open-minded, not focusing on failure, and being empathic. Do you want to expound on some of those thoughts?

BD: I guess, based on what I have done and how I’ve always — been in business — I don’t wallow in defeat. So if something doesn’t seem to be working, I accept that it’s not working.

I don’t beat it to death and say “You know you have to work, because I thought of you.” I’m quick to flip the switch, but not so quick that it’s just a give up type of thing. I know that there are times I always tell people, “Don’t bury yourselves in agony. If something isn’t working, find another direction. Be flexible.”

I’ve also found that working in my position, where I’m talking about empathy, I think everybody needs it in every aspect of their life. But I think that whether you’re a designer, or you’re a developer, or you’re a trainer — whatever — you’ve got to really understand and give people the benefit of the doubt.

They haven’t been there as long as you have been, and when they ask you a question — and hey I’m guilty of this as well — I want to roll my eyes and think “Oh my God. If I hear someone ask me that one more time… Isn’t it obvious?”

Well, no, it’s not obvious. Because it’s something very new to them. They’re new to technology. Maybe they’re not even comfortable with technology. I think all of us in that field need to understand that.

This stuff isn’t as easy as we make it out to be. We have got to be careful [when] we’re using that word “easy”. Because people take that as, “Yeah, everything’s easy these days.” And there’s a lot more challenges [than we make it sound like].  I mean, WordPress, you know.

We all know there was one point where that wasn’t very easy. And sometimes I still — sometimes still cuss and swear at it.

JD: I think that’s well put, Bob, because actually of the content management systems [out there], it’s probably still one of the easier ones.

BD: Oh yeah.

JD: But on the other hand, I’ve got two companies: one in the WordPress maintenance support area, the other one supports real estate agents and brokers. And both are built on WordPress technology. Well, the agent product is.

It’s like living in two totally different worlds, Bob. The normal users still find it frustrating and difficult to use. I think in the WordPress community, it’s quite easy to start living in a kind of tech bubble with it, Bob.

BD: Right, exactly. We kind of get in that little bubble there, that we’ve just got to sometimes burst out of, for sure.

JD: So, obviously you talked to a lot of people in WooCommerce. Obviously you know, Automattic bought the company. I think it’s been over a year now, isn’t it?

BD: Yeah I think it’s been over a year.

JD: Doesn’t time fly?

BD: Yeah, no kidding.

JD: What do you see — obviously you are Bob WP — so I’d imagine you’ve got a crystal ball somewhere. What do you see happening in the next year around WooCommerce and e-commerce and WordPress? Any kind of — any foresights?

BD: Yeah, boy, you know with WooCommerce, and now I’ve talked to some of the people there, I think I see their direction as trying to make — not so much WooCommerce do a million other things.  I think they are making some effort to make it more user-friendly, making it a little bit more friendly, piece by piece. It can’t be done overnight. My thoughts are — I keep thinking, “Okay, there’s going to be some

kind of hosted ecommerce solution.” I think a lot of us are already thinking that. Honestly, I think that would probably be good.

Because, you know, everybody has different options. Everybody has different needs. And that will work for a lot of people. Of course, it wouldn’t work for other people.

I try not to get too [caught up in those worries]. I’m very accepting of what happens in WordPress. I kind of stay out of the WP Drama.

When people something happens, there’s a new change and everybody goes off, I kind of say, “Oh, all right. Cool. I see what that is. I’m moving on.”

So I’m kind of laid-back and really, I don’t know what’s going to happen with anybody.

JD: You mean you don’t contribute to one of those Twitter dramas?

BD: Sometimes, I just want to go, “Ahhhh!” I actually block them after a while. [laughter]

JD: I don’t know how you live with yourself, Bob. You don’t contribute to the melodrama. I can understand that. So, Bob — we had to have a discussion a few weeks ago about e-commerce.

It was WooCommerce self-hosted solution, compared to Shopify. Now, I don’t know if you’ve dealt with Shopify or some of the other fully hosted solutions, like Big Commerce.

Reflecting back, have you got any kind [idea] of how you would explain to somebody when maybe Shopify is the right solution or when a fully self- hosted solution like WooCommerce is the way to go. Got any thoughts about that, Bob?

BD: You know, it’s interesting, because I haven’t dived into the e-commerce side of the platforms. I’ll be honest, I’ve never even touched Shopify.

I know people that have used it, and stuff. I did build a stock photography site like a billion years ago. I had this big idea I was going to become a stock photo mega-millionaire or something. And I did it on Shopping Cart, and this was some time ago and it was an interesting experience. The site was just horrifying.

JD: Did it age you, Bob?

BD: I’ve went to the Wayback Machine and found it, and I thought, oh man. I’m never going to tell anybody the URL of that sucker.

Actually, I’m kind of in a place where when people come to me — if they want to know about WooCommerce, I tell them, “This is what you can expect.” If they come back to me three days later and say, “You know, I’ve really talked to a lot of people, I’m going to go with Shopify” — my big answer is, “Bless you. I hope it works for you. Go for it.”

I’m hoping everybody does enough research themselves and figures it out. Talk to the people that know what the heck they’re talking about. They’re not trying to influence someone or another.

I’ve actually done WooCommerce workshops where I’ve suggested other plugins to people, because I thought that plug-in will work easier for you than WooCommerce. There’s no reason to [try WooCommerce in a situation where something else is a better fit]. So I’m very open that way.

I think people have to go the direction they feel they need to go. Hopefully, they’ve done the right kind of research and not talked to bias people — and talked to people that actually can really weigh the options and stuff.

So I’m a little bit different that way, where people didn’t come to me and say, “I’m trying to figure out which platform [to use].” I’m saying, if you want to know about WooCommerce, I’ll talk to you.

But you may want to go out and talk some other people to figure out what’s going to work for you.

JD: Sounds great to me, Bob. Go on John, on to your next question.

JL: Sure, that leads in perfectly. So, in your podcast and your travels through the WordPress community, you’ve talked to tons of experts, and you yourself teach people at the Seattle WordPress Meetup. But say you’re a business owner and you’re wanting to launch an online store.

What qualities are you looking for — what criteria are you looking for in a developer or an agency that you’re looking to hire to build an e-commerce store?

BD: You know, that’s a good question.

Really, as far as developers [go], I’ve met a lot of developers. I used to get a lot of them coming up to me and [saying], “Oh Bob, would you please refer people to me?” Well, I don’t quite know who you are and stuff. For me, I recommend people I’ve worked with myself. So I don’t really have a set of criteria.

When somebody comes to me, I’ll say, “Okay, I have maybe x [number of] — you know five people here, that I think would possibly be a good fit for you, as far as a developer, and I’m happy to share those people with you.

Because they’ve either worked with a lot of people I’ve known. ” You know, there’s some trust [involved]. There’s some knowing. And that’s huge to me. And of course, [I have to know] that they know what the heck they’re doing. But at the same time, I have dealt with a lot of cheap people over my years. So a lot of people that come to me are beginners.

They’re just starting, and they don’t want to spend anything.

And it becomes really tough for me, because I know some really good developers. And sometimes I’ll just say, “Okay, what do you need?” And they say, “Well, I want to start a store, and I want to do one download.” So I talked a little bit, and maybe figured out a theme, and you know, it’s easy. If they [the prospect] list 25 things on the list of everything they need, because they’re starting a membership site, I may say to them, “Just roughly right now, I figure you’re probably looking at a starting price of — let’s say ten thousand dollars.” And then I hear this:

JD: *crickets*?

BD: It’s like, are you still there? Hello?

But you know, I try to be really upfront with them. And I don’t —

JD: Bob, how can you live with yourself? I’m sure you’ve induce some heart attacks here. Do you have a respirator at hand? When the reality hits, Bob?

BD: Really, I screen a lot of people before I send them on to anybody I know. Because I don’t want to really want to say it this way — but I don’t want to give somebody a headache.

So, if the person is really serious and they’re willing they understand there is value, and yes to get what they need they’re going to have to spend some money, then, yeah.

If not, well, I start looking at some other options for them. And I don’t know if I’ve even really answered your question. But it’s really it’s different for me when it comes to recommending a developer, because I’ve never actually hired one myself.

I’ve always kind of muddled through all my sites. But I am very —

JD: It’s all coming out, now, Bob, isn’t it? The truth is coming out.

BD: Yeah. I know it is.

JD: Please come on out, Bob. [both laugh] NO, it’s very insightful. We have ways of making the truth come out of our interviewees, folks.

BD: I always tell people talk to a lot of people you really know and trust, and find that developer. There’s a lot of good developers out there, and there’s a lot of scary ones. Just like there’s a lot of screwy trainers, and a lot of good trainers.

And there are a lot of people that do finally “get it”. That yes, I do need to make an investment here.

JD: It is a very difficult situation, Bob. Because I know some really fantastic, technically-fantastic PHP and WordPress developers. But you don’t exactly get a warm fuzzy feeling from them.

And they’re not the best people to communicate with a client, are they?

BD: No, and I understand. I feel their pain.

JD: You know, you give them a gob of money, and you never hear anything for a month. You know? While the client is getting a little bit upset.

But you know, it takes all sorts, doesn’t it? But I know, like John, I’m a bit more of a front-end [developer], and I know how to make a theme. But I’ve got two excellent developers on retainers that work for me, Bob.

Anything I can’t come up with, I’ve got a full team to support in so many ways. And you’ve got little workers that you can just pass the stuff over to.

BD: Yeah, I’m the same way. If I get to a certain point with my site, I’m not going to go and start Googling and saying, “Okay, tell me the code to drop in there.” I will contact somebody I know [and say], “Help me. This is this is driving me nuts. I just need you to fix it. Do it, please.”

JD: I think it’s been an insightful [episode]. Bob has made some confessions on the show. The truth has come out. So Bob, how can people get hold of you for more wisdom and insight?

BD: They can go to BobWP.com. I mean that’s where I live. If I could actually live in my site, I would do it somehow. I’m not quite sure how that would work.

But yeah. I always tell people, just Google “Bob WP” and you’ll find me somewhere you can actually feel comfortable talking to me.

JD: Somewhere over the rainbow, maybe.

BD: They probably won’t find my phone number anywhere, but they’ll find every other way they can communicate with me.

JD: Alright, John. How can people get a hold of you, John?

JL: You can find me at my site, which is LockedownSEO.com and you can also follow me on Twitter: @LockedownSEO .

JL: How do the fine people get a hold of you, Jonathan?

JD: Well, I’m easy to track down. You know, you just go look on Twitter at @JonathanDenwood. People are amazed when people Twitter out. I instantaneously reply, don’t I, John? And I do answer my email actually. I’m not one of these that, you know, six weeks later I might reply.

So if you email me at Jonathan@WP-Tonic.com and you’ll get a reply. And I’ve just a request, folks. For goodness sakes, go over to iTunes and give us a bloody review, will you?

Me and John, we do turn out a ton of freaking stuff for you to listen to, and hopefully some of it has got some interest [to you]. Enough of you are listening to it. Give us a review, will you? Bob, thank you so much for coming on the show. You even laugh at my English humor.

BD: Yup. Thank you for having me.

JD: Yes, well sometimes, I get a kind of funny look from the guests. Sometimes I have to kind of ease off. John gives me that look, because it’s just registering. And you seem to have enjoyed it quite a lot, actually.

BD: Oh, I loved it. Loved it.

JD: Well, we’ll see an excellent next time. Oh yes, I forgot. Join us on Saturdays for WP-Tonic, the round table, which starts at 10am – 12 noon Pacific Standard Time on Blab.im. Listen live to it.

We turn the first hour into a podcast for your pleasure. So if you’re around, join us this Saturday. See you soon, folks.

Everybody say bye.

ALL: Bye.