This week Jonathan Denwood and co-host Kim Shivler interview Brian Massey from ConversionSciences.com. Brian is a Conversion Scientist who works to show all of us that we are scientists, too.
Conversion Science is the science, and art, of optimizing your website in order to maximize conversions. Whether you are looking to build an email list, or sell a product, nothing happens for your business until you move the site visitor to a conversion.
SEO (Search Engine Optimization) is important to bring visitors to your site. It’s critical to always remember that you built your site to build business – not just to get traffic. What happens once the traffic arrives is imperative to moving your business forward.
We’ll discuss Conversion Optimization and the importance of converting traffic into leads and customers. We can also discuss this in terms of Online Courses as Brian is about to launch the online version of his popular, live masterclass.
Brian has been teaching and writing about digital marketing since 2005. His company, Conversion Sciences has run thousands of tests on the websites of companies of all types and sizes.
This Weeks Episode is Sponsored By…
The process he has developed is a proven, repeatable way to build high-performing digital campaigns, from impression to purchase.
Today, he is an international speaker and teacher on digital marketing. Brian is the author of the Amazon Marketing Best-seller Your Customer Creation Equation.
Jonathan: Hi there folks. Welcome back to the WP-Tonic Wednesday interview show. We’ve had a little bit of a Christmas, New Year break but we’re revigoured and ready to come back. This is episode 255. We’ve got a great guest which I’m going to let my co-host introduce. But before I introduce my co-host and then she can introduce our guest, I’m going to quickly talk about our sponsor. And our sponsor is Kinsta Hosting and I’ve been raving about them and I’m going to rave again. Basically, we’ve been with them for about 3 months.
They’re hosting the WP-Tonic website. Brian Jackson, which is their Marketing guru at Kinsta is a personal friend of mine and they decided to become our sponsor and I was looking for a new host. So it was meant to be folks. And I’ve been delighted with their service. They migrated the WP-Tonic website and it just went so smoothly. Their staff are so helpful and it’s just great value. So if you’re looking for a real specialist WordPress hosting company, go to the show notes or go to the WP-Tonic website in general.
There’s a load of banners and links to Kinsta. They are referral links, I want to point out, so you would be helping the show as well if you use one of those and go up and join. Join for yourself or join for your clients and you’re just going to have a fantastic experience. Now, I’m going to let my co-host Kim, introduce yourself Kim.
Kim: Hey everybody. It’s Kim Shivler. I am a Business and Technology and Communications Instructor and Instructional Design Consultant. You can find me at kimshivler.com or tweet to me @kimshivler. I’ll be tweeting some during our event here because we are live on Facebook.
Jonathan: We certainly are. And why don’t you introduce our guest and let’s go straight into the interview Kim.
Kim: Excellent. I would love to. I’m really excited about today’s guest. We are interviewing Brian Massey of ConversionSciences.com. He is a Conversion Scientist and we’re going to dive into what that means with Brian. But from an overview, it is helping you that when you get people to your website, having them do what you want them to do because we know that that’s the critical part. If all the traffic’s coming but they’re not doing anything, you’re just paying extra for bandwidth. So that’s what we’re going to be talking to Brian about today. Brian, say hello and if there’s anything else you’d like to throw in about yourself, please let us know.
Brian: Hello and if there’s anything you’d like to throw in about yourself, I’m sorry. I’m in literal mode today.
Kim: Good night Gracie.
Brian: That was a lovely introduction. That was a lovely introduction. I don’t know what else I would add in.
Kim: All right. Then let’s go ahead and get started because I’m excited to learn about conversions. So, people worry a lot about SEO, getting the people to their website. And yet, once they get there, what happens? And that’s where you come in. Correct? So tell us a little bit about what that means as you start your strategy. Most people SEO strategies. We know we want to drive traffic to our site. Now they get there. What’s the first thing you would start with them on to make sure that they’re getting whatever they need?
Brian: Well, so the question is, you say we all know that we want search traffic. We want good SEO, great content, we want search traffic and when you ask someone why, they usually get stuck on, “Well, so we get more traffic”. But why, “So that we get more traffic”. “Why did you put up a website?”. “Oh, we did that so that we could move the business forward”. But what does that look like? That looks like us building a list so we can continue to market through email. That looks like generating leads that we can pass to our salespeople so that they call and close people. That looks like selling things online if I’m running an E-commerce WordPress site.
And when you start talking about that, you really realize that nobody puts up a website to get Search Optimization traffic. They put up a website to move the business forward, to start relationships with people online. And then Search Optimization becomes a tactic for getting more people to start those conversations. So, of course, I’m biased because I’m in the Conversion Optimization game but I think they’ve got it backwards. I think starting this whole, “We’re going to generate eyeballs and see what happens”, is not going to work for anyone except a well-funded Unicorn in Silicon Valley. Those of on WordPress need to start with, “What do we need people to do?”.
Now, I built my business on WordPress. Conversion Sciences was founded in 2007 and it was essentially me putting on a lab coat, putting up a WordPress and starting to teach the marketplace about the arts, the tools the vocabulary, the disciplines around Conversion Optimization. Basically understanding what people want, understanding what you’re not giving them that’s causing them to go away to your competitors and understanding how you can try different things until you find the things that deliver what they want.
In all of that time, we have never had outbound sales. It’s all been inbound. So, I don’t want to discount the value of the content because it was very important early on when no one knew what Conversion Optimization was and didn’t realize that it was the first thing that they should think of. It was the first thing they thought of. They just didn’t call it that up until now where there’s a constant stream of folks that understand the importance and are giving it priority in Marketing. So, the content is important.
The Search Optimization is only important when you’ve got your Conversion Optimization game down. I tell people not to build out their social media strategy until they get good at getting people from social media back to their site. And it’s the same with Search Optimization. Both Conversion and Search Optimization are so it takes a while to improve them. So there’s no reason you can’t do both at the same time because you do need that traffic if you want to start doing some more sophisticated things like testing. Did I answer your question?
Kim: Yes. That’s a great answer and it actually leads me to my next one because I like that you mentioned it is a long game and there are different things to look at. Because just like with SEO, which a lot of times I hear people throw around little strategy techniques that really aren’t getting to the full picture, I hear the same thing with conversion. I hear people on Podcasts announcing that it’s as simple as pretty much making sure you’ve got red buttons and things like that. Is that oversimplification? And if it is, how actually should I get started instead of looking at some of those tips I’m hearing?
Brian: Yeah. So, Conversion Optimization is important now and so everybody, all the agencies are adding it to their websites and saying that they do it. And they believe that Conversion Optimization is good design. If I’m good at designing landing pages, then I’m going to have high conversion rates for my Ad campaigns and my Search Engine Optimization landing pages, all of those things and it’s not. It’s more fundamental than that. It is about understanding your visitors, which is Marketing kindergarten, not even Marketing101.
It is Marketing kindergarten. I have to have some idea of my audience, my customers, my potential customers and prospects before I can do anything intelligent. And Conversion Optimization is about understanding that at a product level but also at a psychological level. It is about understanding the things we do that we don’t know why we’re doing them. We’ll always make up a reason, right? So, those folks that are talking about conversion, great. They’re expanding the market. They’re making more people aware of the importance of it. My job in 2018 and I’m to kick off my year, this year, is to turn you, the listener, into a Scientist. I’m sorry but this is just going to have to happen and you are going to have a ball with this. If you don’t consider yourself Mathy, you’re going to be just fine. If you got into Marketing because you love the human communication piece of it, you’re going to be just fine. If you got into it because you love to write and teach and to motivate people, you’re going to be just fine as a Scientist. You don’t have to go in the basement and look at screens for hours at a time. You’ve got to get good at two things, number one, asking questions and number two, understanding how you can measure the answer to those questions. And that’s all Conversion Optimization is. We have ideas. Red button, you mentioned the red button before. Red buttons make everything better, right? That’s an idea. We don’t throw that away even though I know the answer already because I’ve been doing this a long time.
We say, “Is there a way that we can try this and collect some data?”. It’s digital. We can watch people interact on our website. Google Analytics is an amazing tool and it’s free. And yes, even you Liberal Arts majors can get into Google Analytics. I promise you, you can. So this is my challenge, is giving people a little bit of confidence, getting them those first wins and then having them embrace Science. I’ll send you a lab coat. I’ll send you a beaker mug for your coffee, whatever it takes for you to remind yourself that you are a Scientist. And if we have time, I’ll tell you a story that will convince you, you already are a Scientist. But does that answer your question?
Kim: It does. And I’m glad you brought up the Scientist because you do a good job of explaining to us why we’re already Scientists, even those of us who think we are, as you mentioned, Mathematically challenged, which I am. People know my story. I got into computers because I found out I could take Programming instead of Calculus. That’s how I came here. So, I would love to hear the story of why we’re already Scientists because I think it’s a good conversion in that way for people to understand.
Brian: So, I love to tell a story and the premise is that if a 14-year-old can be a Behavioral Scientist, anybody can be a Behavioral Scientist. So, my son, when he was 14 years old, built his first computer.
He was spending his own money. He was way into several digital communities, digital games. It’s the new Mall. Those of you that have teenagers know that the online worlds are the new Malls, at least for boys and girls as well. So, if he didn’t design and build this computer right, he was going to be stuck with it for 2 or 3 years with a sub-optimal gaming platform for everything. All of his social as well so gaming joy. He had picked everything out and had narrowed things down. There was one component left. It was the motherboard. The motherboard is the main board that everything plugs into. There were two that he was interested in. They had the same features. They had the features he needed and they were the same price. One of them was 5-Star rated and one of them was 4-Star rated. So, if we weren’t already Behavioral Scientists, if it wasn’t already wired, we would say 4 stars is not as good as 5 stars. So you buy the 5-Star, right?
But even at the tender age of 14, he was smart enough to go and look at how many reviews were driving those ratings. And as it turns out, the 5-Star review motherboard had 5 reviews. The 4-Star reviewed motherboard had 250 reviews. So he knew at the age of 14 that sample size was important. Statisticians call that. The sample size that you’re going to using to predict how things are going to behave in a broader sample size, which him buying the motherboard. He wanted to predict that he would buy the best one. So, what he was doing, even though he didn’t use any of these terms, is calculating the error range. So, 5, a sample size of 5 has a really large error range. That 5-Star motherboard could just as easily be a 1-Star motherboard or a 10-Star motherboard if it went up that high. Whereas the 4-Star motherboard, we knew it was going to be 4-Star, maybe 3-Star. It might even be 5-Star. But the range of error, the range of confidence was smaller so we were more confident in 4-Stars than we ever would be in 5-Stars. And he chose the 4-Star motherboard. And I didn’t have to prompt him, teach him that. Dad with the lab coat.
None of you is sitting there scratching your head going, “Hmm, is that really the way it works?”. Because every time you go on Facebook to see how many people have liked your last post or commented on it or shared it, you’re using Behavioral Science to shape your next decisions. The New York Times Best Seller list. The Rotten Tomatoes Freshness score. Using the behaviors of other people to make decisions in your life is something that we all do. And this is what Conversion Optimization is. All we’re doing is watching the behaviors of people on our WordPress sites, understanding which of our changes is improving things for them and they’re voting with their wallets or they’re voting with their contact information. And the things that aren’t, we stop doing them. The things that are, we keep doing them. How easy could that be? Congratulations everybody. You’re a Scientist.
Kim: I love that and we don’t have to learn all the fancy terms to be a Scientist. So what happens though? If I’m someone and I don’t have the good traffic to my site yet, because it takes some traffic to truly to a test, correct? Where would you tell me to focus while I’m trying to build up that traffic? What’s the one thing I can do while I’m building the traffic that’s going to give me a little bit of conversion bang for my buck?
Brian: Sure. So, there are really two kinds of Conversion Optimization. There’s Pre-Launch Optimization which is all the things you can do to make your landing pages or in the case of WordPress, since so many of us are using it as a content engine, we really need to think of our content pages, our blog content pages as landing pages. They’re Search Optimized landing pages, which means that they have two jobs to do and I’ll go into that in just a minute. We can optimize before we launch a piece of content, an Ad campaign, an email campaign and we can optimize after we launch. And there are some things happening in the marketplace that make the tools. For instance, let’s say that I’m running a piece on content and I’m wondering which headline. I’ve got five headlines that I’m wondering which one of those is going to be best. I can actually go online and bring 10 people to look each one of those headlines and tell me a score of whether or not they would read that content. And that is small sample size. It’s 10 per experience but I will get some feedback on that that will help me choose that one from other humans as opposed to just me picking one. What’s the sample size there? Sample size 1.
So we can grow our sample size from 1 to 10 and by 25. You go online to a tool like Usability Hub or and for 2 bucks a person you can say, “Here is what I’m trying to test”. They come, they look, they answer your questions and everything gets better as a result. So that’s a very simple way of bringing people to your creative and seeing which of your creative choices is most likely to win. Then you roll that out and you have the Post-Launch process in which you get to look at your analytics or you’re seeing things like when people come to that page, how long do they stay? Is it above or below the average for the rest of the site? Are they looking at other pages as a result? And, most importantly, is it driving them to click, “Yes, here’s my email address and name. I want to take that lead magnet”. Or, “Yes, I want to subscribe for more of this content so I get it in my inbox”.
Again, we haven’t done anything Sciencey here but we are actively working to give our visitors what they want on a campaign by campaign basis. If you want to apply that to something like your site-wide navigation, “What should be on my menus for my site-wide navigation?”. Come up with some ideas and then put this in front of some panels and ask them to complete a task. Say, “What would you click on if you wanted to find information on X?”. See how many of them get it right. And that will tell you which of your navigation schemes is most likely to win if you launch it. And then you can use a tool called Hotjar which is very inexpensive that will show you where people are clicking on any of your pages. There are a number of things that we can go into. And I go into these in trainings that I do online. So if anybody is interested in those things. I think you guys can share some of the details of that.
Jonathan: That’s great. I think we’re going to go for our break folks. When we come back, we’re going to learn more about Page Optimization from the Professor. We’ll be back soon.
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Jonathan: We’re coming back. We’ve been delving a lot with Brian, the Professor about Page Optimization. Do you want to wrap up with a question Kim? And then maybe then throw it to me. I was getting my words jumbled there, wasn’t I?
Kim: Yes, one more and then I will throw it to you. So, Brian, you teach this and we’re going to talk a little more at the end about an upcoming class I’m excited about you’ve got. You also work with companies and major brands helping them do this. You actually have services to do this also. In your years, since you started this several years ago and you’ve been doing this, what was one thing that really surprised you in a project either your own or something else? It was a change you made, you weren’t thinking that was actually very impactful.
Brian: You know, I think probably my favorite story is this. And again, to those of you that I am trying to bring into this Science world, I want to make this point. The Science and the data gives you a safety net to be more creative. And as an example of that, we do a lot of work in the addiction treatment center space. We’re optimizing on the web for phone calls actually and we consider a very important because you can save families, you can save lives. Imagine somebody finally being able to kick an addiction that has dogged them and their family for years. We consider it pretty important. We had a landing page that was reforming well but it had a very simple headline, “We can help, call”, and the phone number. For those of you that are optimizing for phone calls, put the phone number in the headline and you will get a nice bump in phone calls. Our hypothesis was if we were more emotional, that we would get more people to call. That they would feel more comfortable calling rather than just that. So we tested a couple of headlines and narrowed it down to two. One was, “Speak to a compassionate rehab specialist, call”. And, “Are you ready to start healing, call”. And these are kind of two ends of a spectrum that we typically do. But because we were going to do an A/B test, we were able to put one curveball in. And so we added in, “Are you ready to stop lying? We can help, call”. Now, if we weren’t doing an A/B test, there’s no way in hell that we would lead with, “Are you ready to stop lying?”. It’s too risky, it’s too out there. But because we were testing, we got to put it in the mix. So imagine all the ideas that you’ve had over the weekend and it just dogs you all weekend. You think it would be amazing, be a real differentiator. It meets the brand voice. You’re really excited about it. You get in on Monday and you realize there’s no way you can sell it to the boss. There’s no way you could just go with it.
Well, guess what? Now there’s a way to collect some data and find out if you were right. When we did the test, you probably are not surprised that, “Are you ready to stop lying?”, one, it increased phone calls by f43 percent. Now, this is a business where we jump up and down for 5, 7, 10 percent increases are like, yes. 43 percent and because we had the data we were able to measure that and that’s what we ended up going with. So I invite everyone to allow themselves to be more creative by embracing the safety net of data and Science.
Kim: That’s an exciting story. I love big numbers like that when you get those.
Jonathan: Yeah. Fascinating Brian. When I’m talking to clients, the past couple clients and they’re talking about funnels and Page Optimization, I get a certain service thrown at me. It’s called Click Funnel. A certain Russel Brunson. What do you see the strengths of Click Funnel? And why do you think clients might, at the beginning or a certain stage, be better off looking at WordPress?
Brian: WordPress instead of Click Funnels or as a compliment?
Jonathan: Wherever you want to take it, Professor.
Brian: So, I think that Click Funnels is a very important fundamental thing is it is bringing Conversion Optimization to the masses. It’s making a lot of things simpler. It is really helping to define each of the conversion points that we’re dealing with and giving you some tools to optimize those. I’m a fan. Now, I have not used Click Funnels in my business and we haven’t done any optimization on Click Funnels. Generally, people using Click Funnels don’t need the full court WordPress team that we bring to the table. So, I hope that answers your question. I think it’s a great thing. If that’s where you start, that’s where you start. You’re going to doing Science. They won’t call it that. And you’re going to start getting up to the learning curve on how you isolate specific ideas, collect data on them to test them. So I’m a fan.
Jonathan: Well, I think it’s a really fantastic answer Brian because it really has put this whole subject into clients real consciousness and helped them with their vocabulary so they actually know it’s a real issue, don’t they? Because a lot of the time half the battle is training somebody that there is a problem and given the vocabulary to express it.
Brian: That is. So the words are powerful. We know, number one, that words are powerful for teaching, for motivating. We also know that of all the ideas we come up with for optimizing a landing page or a website, we always start with finding the right words because the words and their component images are the most. If we don’t get those right, then we’re going to have a really hard time optimizing the site with layout or button color or whatever else you might come up with. So, yes, they’re helping to give word and voice to the space. The story I like to tell is at some point, someone looked at the stars and introduced the concept of a constellation, a group of stars that created picture soon became the Gods and everything. But someone introduced that word, constellation. I’m sure it was different in Greek or caveman. But the power of that, turning the sky, a bunch of white dots from something mysterious to something that you could tell stories around, that’s what they’re doing. And that’s what we should be doing in our content.
Jonathan: So, if you got somebody that sorted their on site SEO sorted out the way Google’s indexing the site and all the problems that build up with a site, anybody that says to me that their site hasn’t got index problems or fundamental problems that need to be cleaned up, I think they’re deluding themselves. After they’ve got that kind of on site problem fixing stage and then they’re going on to look at their content and what we’ve been discussing, this might be a bit difficult but I’ve got to ask it, Brian. Is there a couple areas where on their journey that they should start with about getting their site to a slightly higher level?
Brian: Yes. Treat every one of your blog content pages as a landing page and a landing page has two jobs. Keep the promise made in the Ad, the social media post, the link that was placed in the Search Optimization, an e-mail that you send where there’s a link. Keep the promise made by that. And if you don’t know what the promise is that’s bringing traffic to the page, then you’re not building a landing page. Fortunately for a content page, we know what the promise was. Come and see this content. Come read this content. Come watch this video. Whatever format we’re using. So, a blog content page naturally keeps the promise. So, first job is taken care of. The second job is to bring the visitor to choice. Not the choice to read or not, although that’s one that your headlines of headline and opening paragraph and sub-heads has to do. That’s good writing. That’s good engaging writing. Let them know that there’s a choice. That they can start a conversation with your business. That this content was created specifically to find folks to start conversations. And that can be done a number of ways. We have weird names for these sorts of things. We’ve got what we call a, which is an offer or an Ad at the top of the content, above the content or just below the headline. You can do a Coffee Break, which is an offer inside the content. It can be an Ad or it can be done like a sub-headline. There are Sticky Shoes, which is something at the bottom after they’ve read through. The people who’ve gone to the bottom are the most engaged and most likely to take your offer. And your offer can be, “Get the blog in the inbox”, or a lead magnet that’s relevant to the content. And so, there’s a number of these concepts. There’s the Jilted Lover, which is what we call popover. When somebody’s leaving, it pops up and says, “Hey, did you know?”. Those sorts of things are what you should be considering doing.
And this is bringing the visitor to choice. Say, “I didn’t invite you here to entertain you. I do hope I entertained you and motivated you. But I really brought you here to start a conversation. And now I’m going to ask you to make a choice”. No choice is not a choice. So they can reject you. You’ve got to be ready for that or they can embrace you. And the thing is that after you’ve gotten your SEO down, after you’ve got your Facebook Ad strategy down, it’s going to change. The only asset you have control over is your subscriber list, your customer list, the things that you can convert that traffic into. And so, if you’re building assets for your business, you don’t want to do the, what they call the Digital Sharecropping. You want to build assets that you own, control and that are people that you’re engaged with. It’s your tribe. It’s your community.
Jonathan: Yeah. I love some of those titles actually Brian. You get full marks for creativity with those.
Brian: I told you Science was fun.
Jonathan: Yeah. You’ve come with it. But I think the bigger thing is that you clarified something that we’ve been discussing during the show, during 2017, is that so many Web professionals when they are working with clients, the content is almost the last thing that gets discussed, well, placed on the website. And it’s not down to the Web professional solely because it’s not seen as very sexy, the actual look of the website, the size of the button. The moving of a banner by 2 pixels is much more interesting. So the content tends to be left to the last minute and just on. But that is fundamentally a big mistake, isn’t it Brian?
Brian: Well, let me leave you with this. I cannot persuade with design. I can persuade with words. I can persuade with images. I can persuade with audio, like we’re doing right now. I cannot persuade with design. Design helps make those other elements more visible and more persuasive. So when we launch a website, we spend most of our time working with colors and how this looks and what goes in the menus, the layout, which stock photo are we going to put on the page, heaven forbid. That’s where most of the budget goes to the designers, the graphic designers. They can’t persuade and they’re going to be really bad at driving people to the right content if you don’t already have the content. If you are spending a lot of money and you’re getting designs that say, you are going down a wrong path. You are going to have a beautiful website that, I’m not going to say it’s definite that no one’s going to be interested in but you certainly aren’t focusing on the most important elements.
Jonathan: Yeah. I think design is important Brian, to a certain extent, as a kind of fix and finish consistency.
Brian: It’s important for credibility. It’s important for authority and user interface. Those designers do things that I don’t know how to do. They know how to use color and font and size and whitespace, negative space and positioning on the page. I admire what they do. So I don’t want to discount what they’re doing. They’re put in a position where what they do makes it harder for them to do a good job because they don’t have the content yet. I think it gives them a disservice.
Jonathan: Right. I think we’re going to wrap up the Podcast part of the show. Brian’s agreed to stay with us folks and discuss more of this fascinating topic for about 10, 15 minutes which you’ll be able to find on the website, the video with a full set of show notes and a transcription of the interview as well. Plus with all the leading links to the products and services that we’ve discussed through this fascinating conversation. I’m going to let my co-host and myself and our guest give you details on how you can find more about them. So, Kim, how can people find out more about you?
Kim: You can find me at kimshivler.com. That’s all the different programs that I have. And Brian, when you tell us about yourself, make sure you tell us about the upcoming course for people who want to dig deeper into what you shared with us today that’s been so valuable.
Jonathan: Yes, Brian. Tell us how you can be found and especially about this course.
Brian: Yeah. So, the 6-week course in which we’re going to turn you into a Scientist and make you really comfortable with all of these moving parts is at conversionlive.com. And if you want to come and check out our blog and some of the things that we’re doing to turn our landing pages, our content pages into landing pages, I welcome you to come visit. There’s a free mini course on the site at conversionsciences.com You may want to go through that. And that’s a collection of nine articles that will begin to get you up to speed on the state of the art and Conversion Optimization.
Jonathan: Sounds great. I’ve got every confidence in the Wizard Brian turning you into a, after you’ve gone to the Optimization College, you’ll be turning into a little miniature Wizard. If you want to find out more . . .
Jonathan: Yeah. If you want to find out more about me folks, it’s quite easy. Go to the WP-Tonic page and you’ll be able to find out more about me and Kim and also go to my Twitter @jonathandenwood or join our Facebook group or page and we’re going to be putting more stuff on there in the coming weeks. And if you’re feeling very generous, leave us a review on iTunes. It really helps the show. We’ve had a couple good ones. We’ve had a negative one. I’m going to read out the negative one next week because it made me laugh. All feedback is most welcome and we’ll be reading out some of the new reviews during the next couple of weeks and. So it’s been a great interview. Go to the web page like I say and you’ll be able to watch and listen to some more of this conversation. We’ll see you next week folks. Bye.