Why Being A Guest On A Podcast Is A Great Idea
Discover why being a guest on a podcast boosts your brand, expands your network, and positions you as an industry expert. Start your podcast tour today.
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Discover why appearing as a guest on a podcast can be a game-changer for you! In this informative show, we highlight the advantages of sharing your insights and experiences with a new audience. You’ll learn how podcasts can enhance your visibility, establish authority, and create valuable networking opportunities. Curious about how to get started?
With Special Guest – Molly Ruland From HeartCastmedia
#1 – Molly, can you give the tribe a bit more info on your background and how you got into podcasting?
#2 – What do you see as the benefits for people going on podcasts to be interviewed?
#3 – Do you see any trends developing in podcasting that you can share with our tribe?
#4 – How does podcasting integrate with other online marketing, like YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok?
#5— Are there any AI tools or services you have been using remotely or regularly that you would like to share with the WP-Tonic tribe?
#6—If you had your time machine (H. G. Wells) and could travel back to the beginning of your career, what advice would you give?
The Show’s Main Transcript
[00:00:00.600] – Jonathan Denwood
Welcome back, folks, to WP Tonic Show. This is episode 977. In this episode, we’re going to be talking about podcasting again. We’ve had a little run here, but we’ve got an expert who will give you all the info that you’re looking for to be a guest on the podcast, and why you should consider it in 2025 and 2026, and how it could promote yourself and build your reputation. We got an expert on it. We have Molly Ruland with us. Hopefully, I haven’t butchered her surname. It’s a bit of a theme for me, Molly, destroying my guests’ surnames, but don’t take it too personally. Molly, can you give us just a quick intro, a 10- to 15-second intro, and then when we go into the main part of the podcast, we will delve into your past career in more detail.
[00:01:30.000] – Molly Ruland
Sounds good. Well, let’s see. I’ve owned a multimedia company for the last 25 years, so I spent a lot of time creating content, working in audio and video, messaging, marketing, branding, all of that. I’ve been on every side of the desk, the camera, the mic, and everything else.
[00:01:50.000] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. It should be a great show. Molly’s got a ton of info to give to us, my beloved tribe. But before we go into the main part of the show, I’ve got a message from one of our major sponsors. We will be back in a few moments, folks. Three, two, one. Coming back, folks, I want to point out that we got some fantastic special offers from the sponsors, plus a created list of the best WordPress plugins and services for the WordPress professional or power user. You can get all these goodies by going over to wp-tonic. Com/deals, wp-tonic. Com/deals, and you can get all the goodies there from the beloved WordPress Drive. What more could you ask for? Probably a lot more, but that’s all you’re going to get on that page. Molly, let’s go into it. You gave a little bit of an outline of your tremendous experience, but how did you get into the online media area, and why did you pursue it?
[00:03:03.700] – Molly Ruland
Well, it started 25 years ago now. I’ve always been a connector. I grew up in a very Irish family, and we grew up with the Chieftains in my living room and dancing at the White House for Ronald Reagan. I grew up with Brian, what’s his name? Flatley from the Lord of the Dance. I don’t tell everybody that because it’s not a lot of street cred involved. But we grew up in a family of performers and Orders. That’s what we were, a big Irish family. As I grew older, I began working with local artists to support the community through art, music, and culture. I managed 160 artists. I built recording studios. I had a three-story building across the street from the legendary Howard Theater in Washington, DC, which was a lifelong dream of mine. I had a lot of experience in that. But in 2018, I just hit a wall where I didn’t want to… I just wanted to switch things up. I have been putting artists on stages across the country and across the world for a long, long time. I reconded my life and reverse-operated it. I dialed in on everything I enjoyed doing, and I got rid of everybody who was making it difficult for me to do that.
[00:04:21.160] – Molly Ruland
I formed Rkast Media to take all of those skills that I learned in that very bootstrap grassroots company and apply them to business because I saw there was a real gap between young people making incredible videos with iPhones with no money, and then Ted from IT getting 10 grand to build a brand video that has 17 views on YouTube. I thought there had to be a middle ground somewhere in between. That’s when I formed HeartCast Media. We primarily focus on podcast production as a business development tool, so as a pipeline filler. About two years ago, I realized that nobody was handling bookings correctly. It was too many AI pitches, too many incomplete pitches, too many just like, Are you drunk? Pitches. I just thought, What am I doing? I’ve been putting people on stages my whole life, and that’s in my bloodline. I’m going to take a swing at this. That’s when we launched the podcast booking side of podcast media. However, we’ve always been a very digital-first organization. I cut my teeth in social media when Facebook was brand new. We adapted very quickly and did so again during the pandemic, when we had to transition our brick-and-mortar business to a fully remote one.
[00:05:40.260] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. Over to you, Kurt.
[00:05:42.860] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I feel like I just want to extend the question a little bit, Molly. First off, I’ve got to tell you, I love the name Heartcast Media. I think it’s great, and I like your website. I’ll just get that out of the way real quick. Folks, run over to Heartcastmedia.com, check it out. But next, I’m curious, obvious because Jonathan has been in the podcast game a long time. I’ve been in the podcast game a long time. We know a lot of people who have been in the podcast game a long time, but it’s like CRMs. We talk about CRMs all the time in one of our shows, and everybody has a different idea about what a CRM actually is or does. I was just hoping, because you’re a pro, what defines a real podcast to you? I see cats walking around their neighborhood, shining a cell phone on themselves, and they think they’re making a podcast. And let me people go to an actual studio with a soundboard and have professional audio done. And so if you could shed some light, what’s the difference between a hobbyist and a real podcast?
[00:06:42.300] – Molly Ruland
Well, I blame Anchor for that. They were the ones who were like, You can do a podcast from your phone. No, you cannot. No, you can not. Okay, let’s just set that- That’s how I started, Molly. It really was. I blame them for almost everything that’s wrong in my life because it’s convenient, frankly. But really, this idea of… It’s Gary Vee and Anchor, right? Because Gary Vee told everybody, make a bunch of content, make one video, turn it into 17 million. I mean, I get it, right? I love leveraging my time, but that’s not really it. It’s quality over quantity always. Is. And especially now people are overwhelmed. And so you’ve got people who are like, you’ve got the old heads who are like, oh, if it’s on YouTube, it’s not a podcast. We’ll tell that to Joe Rogan. You know what I mean? You’re going to tell me he doesn’t have a podcast? It’s the number one podcast in the and it’s also on YouTube. I think that question is answered differently by who you ask. To me, a podcast is an extension of pirate radio. Our tagline is listening is the revolution. I love the idea of democratized information.
[00:07:45.030] – Molly Ruland
I love the idea that I can turn on this microphone right now, go on to my sub stack, and I can say whatever it is that I want, and nobody is going to stop me. I think that at the core is what… Technically, a podcast is an audio file distributed through an feed. Is a podcast on YouTube a podcast? Technically not. Is a podcast on a cell phone technically a podcast? No. But I think the biggest distinction is, do you want to have a podcast to enhance your business, or do you want to be a podcaster? Because those are totally different things. I think that’s the first question to ask, because a lot of people think, Well, if I just do this podcast, then business will come. Well, no, if your content is not good, you’re training people to ignore you. So what is really the purpose and why you want to have a podcast is really, I think, more important.
[00:08:39.380] – Jonathan Denwood
I’ve made a career of that, Molly.
[00:08:44.840] – Kurt von Ahnen
The audience is growing now, Molly. We’ve been doing good. The audience is growing now.
[00:08:50.420] – Molly Ruland
900 episodes. Well, see, and I would consider you guys podcasters, right? You’ve committed to this. Not all episodes are great. Some of them are phenomenal, but you keep doing it every week. You keep putting out there. You care about your community of listeners, your beloved community. You’re offering them benefits by listening. I’m listening, you know what I mean? So to me, you guys are podcasters, right? But the Grant Cardones or the guy from Russell Brunson, who does a podcast from his cell phone. Well, yeah, he could do it from the toilet if he wanted to. He’s Russell Brunson. He’s got 17 million followers. That’s not a real example, right? I think really, what is the intention of the podcast is the It’s your question.
[00:09:31.300] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah.
[00:09:31.860] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I’m glad that you were more specific. I really appreciate your input on that. The question I was supposed to ask was, what are the benefits that other people gain when you encourage them or they work to be interviewed on other podcasts?
[00:09:48.600] – Molly Ruland
Well, I think everything in life is relationships. We decide right away. Life is like a big old dating app. We decide right away if we like people or not. I busted your chops before we got started. You’re like, I like you, Molly. Everything in life is a relationship. I love WordPress.
[00:10:03.000] – Jonathan Denwood
I like you as well, bro.
[00:10:05.240] – Molly Ruland
I like you too, Jonathan. I like both of you. I love WordPress, too, by the way. We could do eight other episodes on WordPress. I’m an elementary junky, but that’s a different conversation. But Everything in life is a relationship. Your whole life is based on your relationships, personally, professionally, everything. If your relationships aren’t good, your relationships aren’t good, your life is not going to be good. I see podcasting as an opportunity to form relationships with people that you normally wouldn’t. If you’re in business, if you are intentional and strategic about whose podcast you’re going on and what relationships you’re forming, they can be very beneficial to you both professionally and personally. If you are going on has to tap into other people’s audiences, you’ve already lost the game. That’s not how it works. You don’t have a golden voice. They’re not going to be like, Oh, my God. I’m going to follow this person forever because of these things they said. No, that’s not how I would like it. You’re more likely to get hate mail from the things you than followers. Let’s be honest. It’s really about forming relationship.
[00:11:05.360] – Jonathan Denwood
There’s plenty of how you can say that there.
[00:11:07.580] – Molly Ruland
Exactly. You get those super fast. I think it’s all about relationships. The benefit is forming relationships with people that you resonate with. We all love WordPress. We all have a good sense of humor. We all like podcasting. I’m sure we’ll run into each other again, or maybe I’ll send you some business, or you know what I mean? This is the beginning of our and that’s how I see it, is like, you guys across the table. Then maybe if somebody else is listening, then I can start to form a relationship with them slowly. But it’s all about… If you go on 20 podcasts in a year, that’s 20 new relationships. That could impact your life tremendously. As long as you fully respect that, it is a relationship and it is not an opportunity. I think too many people pitch it that way. Tapping to other people’s audiences, you know what I mean? People don’t really have a respect. They show up late to podcast interviews. They’re at Whole Foods. I had a guy one time, he was at the dentist. He said, Hold on, I got a spit. We were like, Is this really happening right now?
[00:12:11.620] – Molly Ruland
Did he really just say that?
[00:12:13.440] – Jonathan Denwood
I would cut it at that level. I’ve never had that. I’ve had people not give a lot of notice that they weren’t coming on the podcast. I mean, But I think it’s fantastic. I agree with everything. I like to go back a little bit to what is podcasting because web development, running an agency, running a hosting, a boutique hosting company, I got into it as a secondary career, and I was influenced by Leo LePoult of the Twit Network. I started listening to that and I was interested in computers, I got into it. I was always been heavily influenced by radio as a child, and I just love the medium radio. Then I started to listen to podcasts really early, and Leo was on with his twit network. I’ve been highly influenced by what his attitude towards it and how he runs the Twitch network. But What is… We’ve had this oscillation over the years, haven’t we, about podcasting? Because obviously the mechanics is the RSS feed. That everything else is built on that technology. But the big players on the internet, iTunes, Google, Spotify, is it because they want They hate it and they love it in the same breath?
[00:14:02.760] – Jonathan Denwood
Is it because they can’t totally control it, that they hate it in a way? Because especially Spotify did a big play, and they do get a lot of listeners, but I was looking at how they deal with video and audio, and to me, it’s a bit of a dog’s breath. And then you’ve got what Google, they closed down their iTunes player, their podcast player, and they got this other dog’s breath. You integrate it with YouTube, and I tried it the way they’re recommending, and it’s a mess. Then you got Apple, and for years, I’ve got two feeds on this podcast, and I’ve been trying to get rid of one of the feeds. I don’t even know how it appeared. Every six months, I have a discussion with iTunes support, and I just want to get a gun and shoot myself. It’s growing and it’s had its ups and downs, and I think we’re in a growth period, but it seems to have this strange mixture, this relationship with some of the biggest players. Is there anything to what I’ve just said and what’s your own thoughts?
[00:15:34.680] – Molly Ruland
Well, this is a spicy bite, let me tell you. I think the podcast industry has an identity crisis right now, and there’s a lot of players in the advertising industry that are presenting themselves as podcast industry folks, and they are not. At the end of the day, it all comes down to money. Where are they putting ads and how much control do they have and how much of the slice are they getting? When they recognize that they’re not getting anything, they make it really difficult. You’ve got groups like Spotify who… The Rolling Stones doesn’t make money off of Spotify. You know what I mean? We can look at the music big business, and we can understand what’s happening in the podcast business very clearly. We’ve got advertisers, we’ve got corporate interest coming in, we’ve got money going all in one direction, but none of it is sustainable. For example, two months ago or a month ago, WNDRI They shut down, the Amazon arm. They fired 110 people. Well, yesterday, the CEO of a new company, the woman who was the CEO of WNDYR, announced a new talent agency of all AI podcast hosts, and they are producing They’re producing 5,000 podcasts.
[00:16:46.760] – Molly Ruland
They’re producing 3,000 episodes a week, all with AI slop at a dollar an episode. They called podcasters Lazy Luddites for creating content.
[00:17:00.500] – Jonathan Denwood
I don’t know. Well, not in a clean way. I don’t know how to respond to that.
[00:17:06.920] – Molly Ruland
She also was quoted saying that in 20 years, that half the world will be AI, that half of people will be AI. Somebody commented on LinkedIn. He said, Well, in 20 years, people will know the difference between people, will know the definition of people. But there’s a real problem. The short answer is it’s the corporate influence on this craft that ultimately is storytelling. It is storytelling. That’s what podcasting is. It’s getting on and it’s radio. It’s all of those things that we’ve talked about. But it’s been completely meddled with by corporate and big tech who think, Wait, we’re running… First, it was the big grift with the Apple downloads and, Oh, you’re paying for all these ads on these downloads, but they weren’t actually being listened to. They were just being downloaded. Then they got it that two years ago and the whole industry went up in flames and all those contracts got canceled. All of a sudden, Megan Markel doesn’t have a podcast anymore. All of a sudden, all these wondering is shutting down, and Cadence 13, and all these people are shutting down left and right because they’re trying to get a piece of the pie.
[00:18:07.880] – Molly Ruland
Now, the downloads have died, and they don’t want to pay creators. They want to have networks and get 80% of the money and give 20 to the creators. Well, the creators get getting sick of that. Now they said, Well, we don’t need you at all. We’re just going to create AI agent, Slop, and make podcasts from AI hosts.
[00:18:24.560] – Jonathan Denwood
But also, I’ve been attempting. I am committed because I love the medium. But also I’ve been trying to build up my YouTube channel with some success. But YouTube, they don’t even know… They’re getting more views, they’re getting more market share. It’s growing and I want to be on there, but it’s totally infested with, as you say, AI slop, isn’t it? They know it and they’re trying to fight back because it’s When I see it, I just cancel. I don’t want to see this anymore. I tell YouTube, Don’t show me this, because it’s obvious AI slop, isn’t it? As you put it.
[00:19:14.980] – Molly Ruland
Well, and they’re just looking for places to put more ads, and there’s not enough creators to do that. So they’re just making pocket. I mean, it’s the biggest grift of all time. And so it’s like, I think the short answer is we have to not worry about those other platforms. Stick with the authenticity of the RSS feed and build your audience. Now, I am a big fan of YouTube because it’s the second largest search engine in the world, and it has a lot of benefits. But I don’t really consider YouTube to be synonymous with podcasting. I consider it to be more It’s strange because long-form content, this show’s around an hour, and sometimes we have bonus content if the host can put up with us.
[00:19:57.080] – Jonathan Denwood
Host, guest, sorry, can put up with us, or me, I should be more precise. But long form was out. It was all short form, and short form still has a place, and I’ve decided to jump into that. It was a little bit resistant, but I think it has its place. But now long form is back again, isn’t it? On YouTube and in podcasting. Would you agree with that?
[00:20:20.760] – Molly Ruland
Yeah, and I think a lot of people are moving a sub stack because they can have longer form conversations and write blogs and essays and go live there and it has an RSS feed. So the industry is definitely-They’ve made a play in video as well.
[00:20:37.120] – Jonathan Denwood
But my problem with them, it’s a priority platform. If they will have in all your content with them is just like any other… Having a website built not on WordPress, or having everything on one platform, and having your whole income dependent on YouTube. You have absolutely no control. If they change their terms of conditions or they don’t, one day, they just don’t like your content anymore, and they just don’t show it to new people anymore.
[00:21:15.880] – Molly Ruland
Which is happening all the time. I get throttled all the time and shadow banned all the time. It happens-What have you been up to, Molly? You might have picked up on this, but I’m a little sassy and outspoken at times. You know what I say what it is, right? Because I’m turning 50 and it’s the gift of perimenopause. I genuinely don’t care what anybody thinks anymore about my opinions or how I look or anything, and I’ve earned it. It took a long time to bake this cake, and I’ve been doing this stuff for 25 years. But the point is, you’re right. They control all this stuff. Even on Substack, because I wanted to run an experiment, I launched a new podcast on there, and the UX is terrible. It’s so confusing. I feel It’s like my mom trying to operate a computer, and I’m a very technical person. You know what I mean? I’m the one that installs stuff for friends and builds websites and codes. You know what I mean? I’m not an idiot. I get on there. I don’t know what I’m doing half the time. I have followers. I don’t know how to have 2,000 followers.
[00:22:14.680] – Molly Ruland
I have no I have no idea how to talk to them. Then on Substack- I think it really appeals to the traditional cable news.
[00:22:28.940] – Jonathan Denwood
There’s They’ve been decimated, haven’t they, over the last 18 months, two years, probably a bit longer. They’ve been sacked. I’m amazed at the amount of formal cable presenters that have launched their YouTube channel and launch their sub stack. I haven’t really got much time for them, really, Molly, but maybe that’s me. But is this making any sense what I’m I mean?
[00:23:00.960] – Molly Ruland
Yeah, for sure. I think at the end of the day, we could talk forever about what a podcast is or what a podcast isn’t, but I really do think the most important thing is how you’re using it and what benefit does it get you. Why are you doing it in the first place? Because it’s not, as you know, 900 episodes deep. It’s not like a quick fix. Start a podcast. Everybody loves you. It’s not the field of dreams. It is a It’s a grueling process when you go to check those out.
[00:23:33.900] – Jonathan Denwood
It’s a field of weeds. All right. I think it’s time for us to have our break. I’m going to let Kurt take. I’ve been on a little bit of a wander with Monty, but she’s been very gracious. Hopefully, I haven’t bored you, try, but you know what I’m like, don’t you? We’re going to go for our middle break, folks, and we’ll be back in a Three, two, one. We’re coming back, folks. We’ve had a great discussion. Well, Moni’s been coping with my mad. Kirk is just looking, smiling as normal. Before we go into the second part of the show, I just want to point out, if you’re looking for a great hosting partner that offers real support when you got a large build-out in membership community, why don’t you look for somebody Look at Hosting with WP Tonic. We offer some tremendous packages. You can go and find more if you’re a WordPress professional. Go over to Wp-tonic. Com/partners, wp-tonic. Com/partners. Let’s build something special together. Did you like the tagline, Molly?
[00:24:54.180] – Molly Ruland
I love it.
[00:24:55.040] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, it’s only taken me eight years to produce something here. I’m a very slow learner, but I just keep at it. Over to you, Kurt.
[00:25:06.040] – Kurt von Ahnen
Thanks, Jonathan. I almost closed my own personal podcast in 2018 because I thought it was an utter failure. And then I was in word camp in San Diego, and someone on the bottom floor started screaming my name, which I thought was bizarre because I didn’t know who they were. And then when I walked up to her table, she goes, Oh, my God, you’re the Manana Nomas guy. I’ve been listening to for years. And that was the first time that had ever happened. And then later that year, it happened like two more times. But my numbers didn’t show that there was no comments. People didn’t like, they didn’t share. My stats looked horrible. And now it’s seven years later, I still have the podcast, and I’m doing more quality guests than I’ve done ever right now. The question is, do you see any What are the trends developing in podcasting that you can share with our tribe? But I think more of the question is really like, so many people start like I do, right? They start a podcast. They say most people never get past 10 episodes.
[00:26:12.580] – Molly Ruland
Seven.
[00:26:13.680] – Kurt von Ahnen
Seven, yeah. I had had 100 episodes in the tank and was going to turn it off anyway. What can you share with people that’s like, well, this is a developing podcast trend, and this is how you do this or how you do that? What could you say that might give people some hope to continue the medium?
[00:26:31.660] – Molly Ruland
I think the first thing is don’t worry about what people want and focus on what it is that you’re passionate about and what you want to talk about. Because a lot of people are like, well, what’s popular or what’s trending? Or I want to talk about diversity or resilience.
[00:26:47.100] – Jonathan Denwood
They’re totally driven by the podcast or YouTube analytics, aren’t they? They’re just totally driven by it, aren’t they, Molly?
[00:26:56.060] – Molly Ruland
I call it twerking for the algo. Tom Bilyeu is a perfect example of that. I used to idolize Tom Bilyeu, Impact Theory. I loved his podcast. I thought he was one of the best interviewers in the world. Then he just went down a rabbit hole, and now all of his stuff is financial collapse. Everything is ending. All of his thumbnails are fear-inducing. I know he’s looking at his analytics and he’s saying, Oh, people like it when I do this, so I’m going to do more of that. He’s lost himself. He’s lost a lot of people because of it. I would say, Don’t worry about the analytics. Focus on having really good conversations and have a podcast about something that you’re actually passionate about because people can tell when they’re listening to you if you’re into it or not. I’m sure the three of us could talk about WordPress for an hour and a half and just nerd all the way out because we’re really passionate about it, and people probably wouldn’t understand half of it, but they would be like, Wow, those people really like WordPress.
[00:27:50.610] – Jonathan Denwood
We have a different… Because some of the shows are very technical around WordPress. Others aren’t. I try and just whatever comes on my radar on what I’m interested at that time. I’m the main host. Kirk’s a fantastic co-host, and I just play it like that, Molly. But I don’t allow myself just to be driven by the analytics.
[00:28:18.620] – Molly Ruland
Well, and that’s what it is. People tune in because they like you. They like your voice. They like your accent, like your sense of humor. They like the topics that you talk about. But if you were just focused on one thing that you thought the algorithm wanted, it wouldn’t come off the same way. You wouldn’t be as personable, your jokes, your self-depreciate, none of that would exist. You’d be so focused on the downloads and the metrics of that. There wouldn’t be space for that. I think that people want more authenticity and illness right now than ever before.
[00:28:47.480] – Jonathan Denwood
Or is there a happy medium? Do you think on the YouTube channel, I’ve been more merciless with that, as I would put it? Because sometimes you saying that you’re just deluding yourself. But I think it’s finding a happy medium, isn’t it, Molly?
[00:29:07.040] – Molly Ruland
Well, I’m a big fan of analytics, don’t get me wrong, but the analytics are not going to determine my belief system or the things that I’m passionate about.
[00:29:16.220] – Jonathan Denwood
Now, when it comes to actually going on podcasts, obviously, you’re going on to other people, you’re introducing yourself to new tribes, as I put it, the Purple Cow, that golden’s concept. Because obviously, the other benefit is that hopefully they’re going to do proper show notes, and you’re going to have a link back that might give you some credibility with Google, and you’re just introducing yourself. But how many, you’re going I would say it depends, doesn’t it? I totally understand. But how many do you think is a good place to start per month going on other people’s podcast?
[00:30:14.740] – Molly Ruland
I think two to four is very realistic. I think it’s really important to be very intentional with what podcast that you’re going on. Sometimes small audiences have a lot of value. So the metric is not how many downloads they have, but there’s a lot of platforms that you can join and get connected with other podcasts. But a lot of those people are going to no show you, you know what I mean? Be late. It’s a lot of new podcasters, and so they’re not going to be great experiences, and they don’t have big audience. You know what I mean? So it’s really limited. So I would say be very intentional with who you’re spending your time with and be very clear on what your pitch is. We did a for NATO, and Terry Schultz was the host, and she’s a world-class journalist, and I’ve never seen anybody handle a conversation the way she can. I mean, it was absolutely phenomenal. She could control the conversation in a way that nobody ever felt like they were being interrupted or not heard or anything that, but she could just change the… I’ve just never seen anything like that.
[00:31:18.980] – Molly Ruland
She’s been doing it for 30 years. But I think it’s a lesson for all of us. When you’re going on podcast, you should be saying the same thing over and over and over again. If you listen to all your episodes in one day, you would hate yourself. But that’s the point. You need to have a consistent message everywhere you go. I talk about podcasting as a business development tool. I talk about podcasting as a relationship builder. That’s my main message. That is my main message always. My CTA is very clear. It’s the same thing every time. It’s a page on my website that I track, and I have some special offers on there and a meeting link. That is my CTA every single time. I think it’s about getting really polished, understanding what your talking What your points are, understanding what your CTA is, and then nurturing that relationship, making sure that you’re following up and saying, Hey, Kurt and Jonathan, thank you so much for having me on the show last week. That was a lot of fun. Thanks for your time. If there’s anything I can ever do for you, let me know.
[00:32:15.730] – Molly Ruland
No problem. Thank you, Molly. Maybe nothing will come of it, but maybe something will. You never know. Maybe one day we’ll be on a panel together. You never know. The world’s a crazy place. None of that surprises me anymore because it’s also a very small industry. We’re a tiny little community of podcast nerds.
[00:32:34.120] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, maybe Grant Cardone is going to reach out to us now.
[00:32:37.020] – Jonathan Denwood
I’ve never been part. I’ve just been part of the WordPress developer, but I’ve never been, even though I’ve been doing it quite a while. My biggest influence was the BBC and Radio 4. That’s how I set my standard on, and I failed consistently, Molly, but it’s a high standard, isn’t it, Molly? It’s a very high standard, Radio4, the BBC. High standards means you probably fell a lot, but it’s still quite good. This could move on then. I think the biggest problem with me with podcasting, Molly, generally is the silence, that the medium doesn’t make it very easy. We’re going to do a pitch at the end of the show for people to leave reviews, because if you’re using the iTunes app or Spotify app, it’s pretty easy to leave a review, but generally it isn’t. It’s not like YouTube where they can leave, well, maybe too many comments, but it’s easy to leave comment. But the problem is the deafness. But then when I go to a WordPress conference, I only have to open my Oh, you’re Jonathan. I’ve been listening to your podcast for six years. If I ever go to a WordPress, I get that consistently, but it’s the silence of podcasting.
[00:34:15.560] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s one of the problems with it. What do you recommend?
[00:34:19.240] – Molly Ruland
I mean, it’s a lonely portal for sure. I mean, you’re just talking into, yelling into an empty room a lot of times, and you don’t know if people are really listening or not. I think that’s why the metric has to be a little different. I’ll say this, the people that are getting a lot of downloads and a lot of interactions are also paying for them. People are paying for downloads. They’re not necessarily for the download, but they’re paying for media to promote the episodes to get the downloads. They also aggressively push for reviews and stuff. A lot of times they have PR and marketing and a huge budget behind it. I think comparing ourselves to those people is a lose, lose right away because they’re podcasters. They are media personalities who are putting money behind that versus growing a podcast organically. You’re right, they don’t make it easy. I tried to leave a review for something and I went in this endless loop on the Apple the other day and I was like, Jesus Christ, man, it shouldn’t be this hard to just leave a review. But for me, I don’t care about downloads. I don’t even look at my downloads.
[00:35:22.440] – Jonathan Denwood
Are you sure? I don’t.
[00:35:24.520] – Molly Ruland
I really don’t because they suck. What am I going to do? Log in and Oh, you know what I mean? Just foster my imposter syndrome a little more. No, man, I don’t need to look at… You know how I know if my podcast- The two shows me and Kurt do, we get between 5 and 10,000 a month.
[00:35:42.420] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s phenomenal. That’s not bad for the two shows. I think we’re doing… And it’s been growing lately. But I tell you, being controversial, I can be a bit controversial, can’t I, Kurt? Yeah. And There’s been a couple of times where I fall and fail with certain elements of the WordPress community for crimes against humanity. I’ve been just blanked and just, You’re trash, Jonathan, because it hasn’t suited what they wanted to hear. But funny enough, my downloads have just gone up. When you’re really good, it’s very unpleasant, but when it comes to actual downloads, they go up, the more controversial, but I’ve had to tone it down. It was never around what you have pointed out, Monique, just to get more downloads, because you’re definitely right, there’s a whole There’s a whole section of YouTube and podcasting, they’re doing it intentionally to be quasar controversial because they get more money, basically, and I despise them. I admire them and despise I mean, the same. The merciless commercial side of me, Amaya’s great marketing, but the more spiritual, the human side of me, I despise them. I’m back and forth, really, but I’m all over the place anyway, Molly, so it doesn’t matter.
[00:37:18.840] – Jonathan Denwood
Over to you, Kurt.
[00:37:22.380] – Molly Ruland
Nice softball.
[00:37:24.000] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, it’s my job to switch the channel, right? It’s my job to change the direction, Molly. If we think about social media as an entire marketing platform and podcast being a part of that, how do you see podcasting integrate with those other marketing channels, like YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. And I’ll front load you a little bit. Opus AI was one of those things that would make clips out of podcast videos, and I would slap those up all over the place. And I got some quick hits. I got some quick follows, but I wasn’t sure if it was actually quality follows or if it was… I really struggled with it. And then when I looked at what I paid for it versus the benefit, I said, I don’t know if this is really working or not. And I stopped for a while. What are your thoughts? Because podcasting is a really strong, awesome communication medium, but I’m not sure it transfers really well to those other channels.
[00:38:22.860] – Molly Ruland
I think when you have studio quality content, your chances of that short form content working or significantly higher. It’s really hard for any of us to watch a 47 second clip with somebody on a laptop, Zoom. It’s like you better have said something real prolific or funny or divisive or it’s just going to get lost. Because when you look at the clips that do really well, like the I’ve Had It podcast, those two white women that just destroy Trump all the time. They’re just so funny. I love them so much. They’re so Southern women, and they speak with such eloquence, but they just drag him. But they’re in a studio with incredible lighting and lav mics and multiple camera angles. You know what it means? It’s being cut in a way that when people get that clip, it’s being edited. You know what I mean? This idea. I got an email from a guy on LinkedIn, and he said, I’ve developed this AI that does better than a human clipper. I said, A human clipper? You mean an editor?
[00:39:28.440] – Jonathan Denwood
Bro, he A human clipper?
[00:39:33.490] – Molly Ruland
And then I said, How do you stand up to Opus AI? And he said, I’m one of the founders of Opus AI. And I just thought to myself, You should probably refer to people by their… Not a human clipper. You know what I mean? A human clipper? That’s an industry, man. You know what I mean?
[00:39:49.740] – Jonathan Denwood
He’s talking about a dolphin, is he?
[00:39:52.690] – Kurt von Ahnen
That’s what they call people in the mom.
[00:39:56.200] – Molly Ruland
I used to love that show, Clipper. That was a good show back in the day. But It wasn’t Clipper.
[00:40:01.020] – Jonathan Denwood
What was the name of that show? You had Skippy the Kangoo, and then you had the Dolphin, didn’t you?
[00:40:09.780] – Molly Ruland
It was Clipper, wasn’t it? Yeah, it was.
[00:40:12.280] – Jonathan Denwood
It was Flipper. Flipper, I think. Yeah, I think you’re right. But yeah, I’m sorry.
[00:40:16.510] – Kurt von Ahnen
We have digressed badly on the show now. We got to recover this thing.
[00:40:20.810] – Molly Ruland
Yeah, well, I’ll stop drinking coffee.
[00:40:22.880] – Jonathan Denwood
It’s taking me down to me, Molly. I apologize. I’m sorry. It’s taking me down to me.
[00:40:29.060] – Kurt von Ahnen
I’m going I’m going to steamroll forward here with this next question.
[00:40:32.170] – Jonathan Denwood
Please do, Kerr, because it’s going down real quick.
[00:40:36.600] – Kurt von Ahnen
I want to because I feel like I’m going to put my wife on the spotlight. I’m literally like two weeks ago, I’m walking through the house and I hear this droning tone of this weird, ridiculous story that’s not real at all. Some dog got lost in the woods, blah, blah, blah. I’m in the kitchen making coffee, and I’m like, What in the world is she listening to? I walk out in the living room and she zonked out on the sofa. And I’m like, Okay, that is weird. And so I didn’t think anything of it. Two days later, same thing. She’s listening to some weird monotone, weird thing. And I finally called her on. I said, What are you doing? And she goes, Oh, I love these AI stories. They’re stupid, but they’re entertaining, and they put me to sleep. And I was like, because here’s my thought, Molly. I constantly think I’m operating at some level, right? And then I have real conversations with real human beings that tell me something that sounds like lunacy, right? And I go, Am I so disconnected? Or are these other people falling for some folly? So then I asked some friends, Do you listen to these AI stories?
[00:41:44.070] – Kurt von Ahnen
And they’re like, oh, I I love those AI stories. They’re just white noise in the background, and I think they’re great. And I’m going, this doesn’t make any sense to me because I think I work hard at what I do. And so that launches us into a question, are there any AI tools or services that you’ve been using recently that you would recommend to our tribe? But more than that, I gathered you’re not a fan of AI from your earlier comments. But then we see people finding success in that space. At this point, I think me and Jonathan are both confused.
[00:42:15.180] – Molly Ruland
I think at the core of why people like those AI stories is because it’s not trauma, because everything is trauma. Yesterday, I opened my phone and I saw Charlie Kirk get shot in the neck, saw the whole video, It’s a close-up video. I’m really not okay. It’s part of the reason why I’m off kilter this morning. I haven’t been okay since yesterday. That’s not something anybody should see. Then I scroll again- I refuse to watch it because I just don’t want to watch another human being being executed. I didn’t mean to. I opened up social and there it was. You know what I mean? It just happened. But then I scroll up and then I see a Latino man being stepped on the neck by 10 ICE agents. Then I scroll again and then I see that Supreme Court has just taken more of my right. So then I scroll again. You know what I mean? It’s this endless diluge. And this is why women, to calm down, listen to true crime. It’s better. It’s something long. And I’ve even done that when I’ve been scrolling on my phone in the morning, and then it’s a longer video, and I’ll listen to the whole thing just because it slows down the trauma feed of all of the bad news.
[00:43:27.600] – Molly Ruland
So I think that is just a form of Race Association. But I think on a grander level, that’s going to wear out. You know what I mean? That’s just a societal issue more than anything. I think people that actually listen to podcasts won’t have anything to do with that. I like AI for certain things. I like AI when it can expand on what my thoughts are, answer some questions for me. I love it for show notes and SEO optimizing show notes and say, get rid of deep dive, delve, and all that other crap. I want long tail keywords and optimize keywords in this description. That takes AI a minute and a half. It would take my team members three days. That’s a no-brainer because nobody’s really reading the show notes anyway, but they do matter for SEO, and they do matter when they’re on your website, but they’re not really being read. It’s like closed captions only have to present 80% accurate thing. That’s why I use AI, but I’m not using it to replace a human. I think that’s where we’ve gone. I rail against Riverside all the time. I’m like, I don’t need all those things.
[00:44:35.680] – Molly Ruland
I don’t need an editor. I’m an agency. I’m never going to use your rinky-dink crappy editor or your emojis or your balloons or any of your tools because I’m an agency. I just want the files. No, I’m not going to pay you $1,800 a month. No, I don’t appreciate that you’re trying to put engineers and editors and producers and camera people out of business because your investors weren’t happy that you made 10 million and gave you 10 million more, and so now you have to raise my prices. It’s the unshitification of everything. I think that there is some place for AI, but I think that is short-lived, and I think that is way more of like, we’re tired. As a woman in this country, we are exhausted, we are terrified, and we are so angry right now. I will take some brainless shit any day of the week because I can’t handle I can’t handle anymore. You should see what I watch on Netflix. I turned on The Walking Dead, turned it off and cried for 10 minutes thinking, What the hell is wrong with people? The world is a crazy place. So, yeah, sometimes we just need something else.
[00:45:43.520] – Molly Ruland
But I don’t think that’s indicative of the podcast industry. I think that’s a trend. And I think it’s more that we all need mental health.
[00:45:57.000] – Kurt von Ahnen
A, that was a wonderful answer. I know I put you on the spot. B, just like Jonathan, you’ve invented a great word in shitification.
[00:46:04.460] – Molly Ruland
I didn’t invent it, but it’s a thing where it’s like, they bump up everything. Well, pay more, pay more. But then now the base level is like nothing. It’s trash, right? That’s where we’re at, with everything. It’s like Riverside, their baseline is garbage, and they, Oh, pay more to get this, pay more to get this, pay more to get this.
[00:46:23.380] – Jonathan Denwood
The platform I use is Castos. I noticed that they dropped them. They were pushing it a lot through their platform. They recently dropped it. I want to get back because I think it was down to me, my so-called humor. Question four, which was, you got any tips or insights about how a smaller player can integrate WordPress into social media, into YouTube, Instagram, TikTok? Have you got a ton of experience. Have you got any insights how somebody can utilize podcast content to promote their podcast on these different type of platforms.
[00:47:08.880] – Molly Ruland
I think just be real with your post and your content, and it’s quality over quantity. More isn’t always more at all. As I mentioned, I think people are training people to ignore them. We all know those people on LinkedIn that just post constantly and you just scroll right past it. Or the people that post on their personal and business page at the same time. So you always see two of them in a row on your feed and you’re like, dude, I’m making it.
[00:47:36.480] – Jonathan Denwood
I try not to do that.
[00:47:38.000] – Molly Ruland
Twice now. I think find your platform where you have an audience and lean in there because social media, listen, I have 60,000 social media followers. And when I post something, you know how many people see it? Twelve. You know what’s happening on LinkedIn right now? They’re actively suppressing women’s voices. I’m in a program where we’re actually testing the algorithm, where we’re posting somebody with the same, a male with the same content following as me, post the exact same content, and they’ll get thousands of impressions, and I get six. I don’t think that social media is the answer at all. I think it’s talk to your audience and sue your platform, find places, bring them to your website, bring them into a newsletter, get off of social. Because I don’t think unless you’re studio quality and putting a bunch of money behind those clips, it’s not going to get the masses. Everything is pay to play right now. You’re better off. You would get more traction from social media from this interview if you take it and you tag me on LinkedIn because I got a bunch of followers there and you post something like a real comment, and then I comment back.
[00:48:48.050] – Molly Ruland
That is going to get 10,000 more impressions or 10 times more impressions than any social media posts that you could put out. I think, honestly, and you guys will probably appreciate I think this. I think social media is dead from a marketing perspective, and I think SEO is where it’s at. I think SEO is 100% where it’s at. I would say lean into the platform where you have a voice.
[00:49:10.720] – Jonathan Denwood
It’s quite strange because I do do a lot of SEO work. It’s my main purpose in my company, and I’m not backing off on it, but I actually disagree with you a little bit. But I will have to think about what you said because it’s obvious it comes from the heart. We’re probably going to… Are you okay for… Because Kurt’s got to go at the hour because he’s got to go over to something else. Have you got enough time for some bonus content?
[00:49:40.120] – Molly Ruland
Yeah, sure. This is way better than scrolling on social media this morning. Please save me from myself.
[00:49:46.020] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah. We’re going to go for the final question, and then we’re going to wrap it up. The podcast part of the show. If you had your own time machine or your TARDIS, if you if you know what that is. You could go back to the beginning of your career and you just could have just a quick little chat with yourself. Is there anything you would love to tell yourself at the beginning of your career?
[00:50:14.460] – Molly Ruland
Which one? I would say read. Read every book you can find on business development and leadership.
[00:50:27.160] – Jonathan Denwood
I got a little bit of dyslexia, but I listen a lot. Listen, yeah. I listened as a child to Radio 4, so I blame it on Radio 4. If you’re not English, you’re probably not going to know, but Radio 4 is the intellectual, slightly snobby main BBC radio channel where they had discussions and plays, but I used to love it. I say I got educated by Radio 4, basically. It’s so, Molly, you’ve been a great guest. You have to come back on the show. I’ve really enjoyed the podcast. It’s all been all over the place. That’s totally down to me, but I think it’s been quite entertaining. So Molly, What’s the best way for people to find out more about you and what you’re up to?
[00:51:20.320] – Molly Ruland
Well, if you go to my website, heartcastmedia/friends, because we’re all friends now, you can find all my meeting links and all the good stuff, and of course, my website and everything else. I love talking to people about podcasting, podcast strategy, podcast booking. If people are thinking about starting a podcast business, I’m always happy to give my time. I’m more of the ideal of each one teach one and share what you have, and hopefully other people can benefit from it as well. So if you want to connect with me, but you don’t necessarily want to buy something from me, I’m super cool with that, too.
[00:51:54.920] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. And, Kirk, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you?
[00:52:00.000] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, now I got to come up with a forward/friends link, but I’m usually on LinkedIn almost every single day. I’m the only Kurt Von Omen there. I’m easy to find. Hit the connect button, even if it doesn’t show you the connect button, hit add more, connect, and we’ll connect there and then have a conversation for business. I’m at Mañana Nomas, and I also work directly with the WP Tonic team, so you can reach me there.
[00:52:21.620] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. If you really want to support the show and you found this interview interesting and entertaining, and you’re listening on iTunes on on your phone or Spotify, why don’t you leave us a review? It’s really, really easy, and it really does help the podcast if you do leave a review card at all. It’s totally free and it’s easy to do, so there are no excuses, my beloved tribe. Please leave that review, both me and Kirk would be very appreciative. We’ll be back next week with another expert about WordPress or marketing in general to make you more effective in 2025. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye.
[00:53:06.160] – Kurt von Ahnen
Molly, pleasure. I got to go.
[00:53:08.140] – Molly Ruland
You too. I’ll connect with you on LinkedIn for sure.
[00:53:12.500] – Jonathan Denwood
We’re going into bonus content Basically, I did the podcast, but I had the bonus content, and they can watch it on the YouTube channel with the other formal part of the show. What I’d like to ask, because we normally do about 10, 15 minutes of bonus content, Molly, where do you think podcasting is going in the next 18 months? Are there any trends or general feeling where podcasting is going?
[00:53:46.620] – Molly Ruland
I think there’s actually going to be a huge rebirth because the advertising industry impact on the podcast industry is eating itself. There was a huge merger last week, this new company. I think what’s going to happen is a lot of that corporate stuff is going to phase itself out. I think creators are going to start to organize, and I think we’re going to see new networks of independent creators that are producing better content. They might not have the budget of NPR in the beginning, but at the end, Well, right. But at the end of the day, they’re the ones- I love it, but it makes the BBC look exciting, doesn’t it? It ain’t cheap either, let me tell you.
[00:54:28.440] – Jonathan Denwood
The I was surprised how much money the small channel radio station, how much money they’re sending to the central core and how well they’re doing on the quiet, really, aren’t they?
[00:54:44.040] – Molly Ruland
It’s pretty. But I think the resurgence of real storytelling and real creation, I think the dudes in suits and that influence will wane off a little bit. I think that the love of the craft is going to rise up again, and I think we’re going see some big changes. I think people like Joe Rogan, the influence on the… Podcasting is having a heyday right now for good and bad reasons. I think a lot of people are going to- He’s had that consistent with these ups, and I want to ask you, is it fundamentally that the RSS feed is independent?
[00:55:23.920] – Jonathan Denwood
It can’t be controlled, and that’s why they don’t… Because they can’t, unless you’re on Spotify, Spotify can’t tell the advertisers how many people have listened, have they skipped the advert, how many have downloaded. I listen to LBC, the radio station. It’s a very popular London-based radio station, but they have live feeds and they have podcasts. You’ve got to listen through their app. They won’t share it on anything else. You’ve got to listen on the LBC. They do it all through the LBC website or through the app. They do it because they want to know Are you listening to the ads or which podcast you’re down? Is the fundamental… Because these different outfits, they get funded They come, they go, they come, they go. Is it fundamentally that’s the core problem? Because unless you’re listening on some priority platform, they can’t give the advertisers the analytical data that they crave.
[00:56:46.120] – Molly Ruland
Well, and a lot of that data isn’t real. A lot of it was manipulated, and then it’s really hard to access. I mean, it’s really hard to tally your streams on Spotify, your plays on YouTube, your downloads and listens on the RSS. I mean, there’s a lot going on there. I think as annoying it is to have content gated like that, that’s the smart move. You can embed your RSS feed on the website. You can install a WordPress plugin that automatically uploads your new episodes to your website from the RSS feed. But you have to have a lot of traffic going to your site. You got to be like the BBC or somebody that has that built-in traffic. For now, you really have to use these other outlets to bring some of that audience. But I always I always tell people, you should really be driving people to your website. If you want to post your last episode, post it to your website and share that link. Don’t share your YouTube link. Like, embed the YouTube video on the post.
[00:57:41.200] – Jonathan Denwood
Embed the- That’s what I do.
[00:57:42.920] – Molly Ruland
And always drive people to your website, but most people aren’t doing that. They’re going to drive to Substack or to YouTube or it’s just-Yeah, I think it’s madness.
[00:57:51.990] – Jonathan Denwood
I really do think. Now, when we talk about the beast that’s YouTube, I think they’re in a I’m only surmising this, this is why I’m asking your opinion, because you got a lot more experience, hugely successful, still grown. It’s the apple of the Google Empire in a way. It’s one of their properties that’s growing and growing and growing is a true growth beast, and it doesn’t seem to be slowing down. But I think there’s a problem in the party. I just noticed, obviously, it adapts to what I’m watching. But when I look at the adverts, it’s Drift Central. It’s every drifty product, every drifty health influencer peddling. I don’t know because I’m 60 now, and they probably think I’m going to die soon. It’s every health, and I do watch some health videos, not because it’s history Health, Current Affairs, BBC, World News, that type of thing, and technology. But I’m constantly fed these adverts from these scammers. I put a blocker when I’m watching through the browser because the amount of bloody… But I noticed on the YouTube app, the amount of adverts they’re stuffing in there, and now I think they’ve resisted it because they know that it’s poison at the same time.
[00:59:30.000] – Jonathan Denwood
They’re putting adverts where you can’t skip, they notice they’re starting to increase the amount of adverts, which their advertisers must… The better advertisers, the more profitable advertisers must say, We want you to put an advert where they can’t skip it. They got to watch it. We want to make sure they watch every second of it.
[00:59:53.080] – Molly Ruland
We’ll pay extra for that.
[00:59:55.980] – Jonathan Denwood
But I see that as a cancer because… Do you think the growth is still going to multiply in the next 18 months? I sense they know they’re in a bit of a bind in a way, or am I deluded?
[01:00:17.600] – Molly Ruland
No, I think that there’s a lot of conversations just the other day with the meta whistleblowers about knowing how harmful these things are. I mean, there’s a real reckoning coming. It’s just that the tale is eating itself. You’re serving ads to fake viewers. You know what I mean? Where does it end? Then people will divest off that platform. Even if it is a big platform, people will, the next big thing comes along, that’s better. They’ll be like YouTube who? I think there is going to be a shift. I think that everything happening in our news cycle right now, everything happening with politics, I think all of these are shaping a new digital world, but I think it’s going to get worse before it gets better. But I think a lot of people are going to be inspired by the people like Joe Rogan, but for different reasons, because him and some other podcasters were really able to influence the election. It’s not a political conversation. It’s just more like, Wait a minute, I can actually have influence like that.
[01:01:18.180] – Jonathan Denwood
There is an element that’s non-political. The element was, were a lot of these so-called independent media, how independent they were Because it’s come out on the right and on the left, that a lot of these so-called… In your own eyes, because obviously I take sponsorship on my podcast, but it It’s decent money. It helps me with my editor, and it helps with some of the costs, but it’s not enough to live off. It’s great. I call it gravy money. It’s very appreciative, and it helps a lot, but it’s gravy money. But what’s been reported that on the right and also on the left, these people were getting substantial amounts of money. What is independent media, Mon, in your own view?
[01:02:18.590] – Molly Ruland
Well, I think we’re going to see a rebirth of that, to be honest. I don’t think there’s much independent media right now other than the people that are on Substack, to be honest, because a lot of those are very independent. The Midas Touch, people like those, those are independent media for now. But I think that there’s going to be a rebirth of people who realize how powerful that tool can be and will use it to counterproduct what’s being said. I think there’s always whenever you can have long-form conversations and humanize people, things get better. That’s what makes me hopeful about podcasts versus quick whips on social media. I I think that it’s going to get a little bit worse and a little more saturated by corporate, but then I think there’s going to be a real rebirth of true storytellers and craftsmen and independent media. But especially in the States right now, I mean, mainstream media is letting all of us down. I mean, it is so twisted. You know what I mean? One side is getting one set of news and the other side is getting a completely different set of news. We’re getting completely different information about the same thing.
[01:03:31.330] – Molly Ruland
I think all of us are getting really sick of that. I think there’s a real place for podcasting.
[01:03:37.620] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, but almost all established media and all political parties get their money from the same people. I think you’re getting a message that have some differences, but it’s the same coin, just different sides. Because who pays normally, that’s always been the case, isn’t it? But I think it’s something I know a lot of people have forgotten. But so do you think podcasting the… Because there’s a lot of people have entered it, but we’ve seen this before and we’ve seen these platforms, and they come and go, and then podcasting fades and then it comes back. Or do you think this time it will in the next couple of years, find a more level playing? What do you I do.
[01:04:30.520] – Molly Ruland
I think it’ll level out. I think it’ll get better. I think it’ll improve. I think a lot of things that we’ve been doing for a long time don’t work, and people are waking up to that. I think there’s a real opportunity for this new level of communication and conversation. I do.
[01:04:46.200] – Jonathan Denwood
But do you think if you’re not one of the big podcast, let’s face it, they’re the top 1%, aren’t they? The top 1% to 2%. If you’ve got a reasonable audience, is it about really If you’re huge, I hate the phrase influencer, but we have to use it. If you’ve got audience on Instagram or TikTok or YouTube, they’re always looking to offer more services on Patreon or their own website through courses, which is what we specialize. They’re always looking, and then I get a lot of people that are looking at utilizing WordPress to try and build community. It’s a great idea, but I have to warn them there’s a lot of work in building your own private community. They listen too much to a certain group of influencers. Building It’s a community. It’s easy.
[01:05:47.480] – Molly Ruland
Sell courses, make mailbox money, do it overnight. You’re like, Yeah, okay.
[01:05:52.040] – Jonathan Denwood
Four hours a month. But apart from taking that out, the cohesion, Do you really see that as a way for media and people in podcasting to build more revenue?
[01:06:07.480] – Molly Ruland
I do because I think there’s a lot of collateral benefits from podcasting. Is your phone ringing? Are you getting asked to speak on other panels? Are you being invited to things? Are you collaborating with other companies? Monetization of a podcast isn’t always getting a check from the downloads. It comes in a lot of other forms. Are you getting more clients? Are people hosting with you more? You know what I mean? There’s a lot of ways to measure that. I think that the metrics are really skewed where we live in this society where if it’s not a million plays. When you said you got 5,000 to 10,000 downloads per episode, you’re in the top 10 %.
[01:06:46.390] – Jonathan Denwood
Oh, not per episode. I wish I did.
[01:06:50.480] – Molly Ruland
But so that puts you in the top 2 or three % of podcast.
[01:06:54.380] – Jonathan Denwood
You realize that- It is quite amazing, isn’t it? It’s phenomenal.
[01:06:58.460] – Molly Ruland
I wouldn’t like Poopoo that No, I mean, you’re very passive.
[01:07:01.500] – Jonathan Denwood
I was like, Well done. I know you meant that, but what I meant was how the bulk of podcasts don’t… They get such little downloads, that’s what I mean. But I did it for years and I wasn’t getting many podcast, and I think it’s grown recently. But I got to tell you, I can be quite controversial in the WordPress community wider, the web development. I also got a bootstrap SaaS community. I got a reasonable presence there. But there was a time a few years ago, about three years ago, that I did the episode. It was a roundtable show, and one or two of the guests on the roundtable said some stuff that was a little bit out of order, and I got really taken to the cleaners for it. It was quite painful at the time because I was going through a health crisis. It was the last thing I wanted. It was a bit painful, but my actual downloads and the popularity of the show exploded because everybody, I don’t think you are, and I don’t think I am, but it just seems people like angs, controversialism, don’t they? They just love it, don’t they?
[01:08:25.840] – Molly Ruland
Well, we’ve been conditioned to that with reality TV and scrolling, and it’s always like the cliffhanger, the click bait, the you’ll never believe, so and so got destroyed. It’s not our fault.
[01:08:39.680] – Jonathan Denwood
My patience, I do think you’re on to something because I’ve noticed I’m prepared to listen to other because I’m more quasar left wing. But I’m prepared to listen to views on all sides, really, because I think you got have good arguments. But I’ve noticed that so many, like you mentioned it, is there’s so the thumbnails, it’s doomed destruction. So many people We’re doomed. It’s the end. But they’ve got no constructive causes or arguments about what can be done to move the situation. It’s the most successful politicians in the US and in UK, they’re very good at pointing out disaster, but they have no solutions. I noticed that with the podcasting and the YouTube communities, there’s a load of people pointing out stuff, but they got no solutions, don’t they?
[01:09:51.660] – Molly Ruland
I couldn’t agree with you more. I actually started a podcast two months ago, and it’s called What Do We Do Next? It’s a bipartisan political podcast because I can’t handle any more of these. So and so was destroyed on the Senate floor. No, they weren’t. I watched the video. There was no destruction. Trump has the worst day ever. No, he didn’t. He did not have the worst day ever. That is not true. Just tell me what the video was about.
[01:10:13.520] – Jonathan Denwood
But the thing is, just to finish off and we finish the show, in some ways, I totally understand how he won a game, actually. I think those that don’t understand how he won are deluded. It was pretty obvious to me he was going to win a game, even though in my heart. I was hoping for a miracle, but I knew he was going to win. And he’s been a drifter his whole life. He’s also a narcissist and a psychopath, but he’s been a drifter all his life. His father was horrendous by what I’ve read and listened to, an absolute piece of crap, basically, to his family and to anybody else that regrettably was on his radar. So Trump’s been a He lived his whole life. The thing is, he’s very lucky because I forgot what the English producer that came over to the Americans to produce The Apprentice, and he had almost 10 years of being, supposedly, this great business guy. But we got to be factual here. He’s a 79-year-old man that’s doing a job that a 50-year-old 50-year-old would find extremely stressful. He’s been on a terrible diet for most of his life.
[01:11:37.200] – Jonathan Denwood
He’s obese, and he’s sleeping. If he makes it for the next three years, without dying, it’ll be amazing, won’t it? But it’s just the facts, isn’t it? He’s showing it now. I think this strength, this… I don’t know how to word it, Monty, this power that runs. I think it’s some way it is hate, because hate can be an engine, can’t it? It’s amazing how he keeps what he does, what he does with a way, isn’t it?
[01:12:17.860] – Molly Ruland
But there we go. It’s mind-boggling, to be honest. It is truly, truly mind-boggling.
[01:12:24.820] – Jonathan Denwood
You got to give it marks in a way, but you give it marks, but it’s extremely disturbing at the same time, isn’t it?
[01:12:32.600] – Molly Ruland
Well, because the cost of his ability to do that is so tremendous to the American people that it’s just so hard to watch.
[01:12:40.000] – Jonathan Denwood
But a lot of people like his message, though, don’t they?
[01:12:43.000] – Molly Ruland
Well, that’s because a lot of people are racist, and now they’ve been given an opportunity to be very open about it. A lot of people… I think about this a lot. I know a lot of older white women who are extremely religious who like him, but they don’t know anything about the rapes. They don’t know about the kids, but they refuse. They refuse to. Well, I’m not being rude here.
[01:13:10.600] – Jonathan Denwood
Can I interrupt? The whole rapist thing, I think he is a sex pest. I think he’s one of these iffy guys that you wouldn’t leave your female dog in the same room with him. I think his whole life, he’s been a sex pest. Is he a hardcore rapist? I don’t know. I think that was pushing it a bit. I think saying, You’re a sex pest, you’re disgusting, you’re a sex pest. I wouldn’t leave him alone with my… Would anybody leave their daughter alone with that guy? No. Well, he’s been charged with rape, and he’s been found guilty. In a civil court.
[01:13:55.660] – Molly Ruland
In a civil, but he’s also paid out a lot of cases. To me, if it looks and smells like a rapist, it’s a rapist. As a woman who has to live my life in fear every moment of every day because we choose the bear over men, he’s a rapist, period. Everybody knew that before he ran the first time, and they chose not to look at it. So they are willingly looking in the other direction because it will shake everything that they know about themselves, about their faith, and about their government. That’s too hard for them to reckon with. They just ignore it. I think that’s a snapshot of America. Because how do you have somebody who goes to church every Sunday, considers themselves Christian, considers themselves to be kind, but will look at you and say, your lived experience is not true, and that is not true, even though there’s proof. It’s a real- It’s very bizarre, isn’t it?
[01:14:51.560] – Jonathan Denwood
You’re getting to the crux of it. All right. I’ve really enjoyed the discussion, Molly. Hopefully, in the new year, you will come back on.
[01:15:00.120] – Molly Ruland
Yeah, you guys have been great. I really enjoyed my time this morning, too.
[01:15:04.250] – Jonathan Denwood
We’re going to end it now, tribe, and we will be back next week. We’ll see you soon. Bye.
[01:15:14.550] – Molly Ruland
All.
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