How To Get Results With Infusionsoft Not Just Fancy Campaigns
Tyler first made his mark in the marketing world as the Director and VP of Marketing at Infusionsoft. He led the marketing efforts that produced massive results between 2007 and 2012 and managed Infusionsoft’s own Infusionsoft account for years. He’s become known as the guy who produces results.
Jonathon: Welcome back folks to the WP Tonic show. This is episode 424. I’m on holiday. They’ve allowed me out of the bunker on roaming. So the sound quality might be a little bit lower than normal. But I think it’s too bad. And we’ve got a great guest with us. We got Tyler Thomas and he’s from Box out Marketing. So Tyler, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Tyler: Sure. Well thank you first off for having me. I really appreciate it. It’s always good to connect with great people like you and your audience. But my background is all with Infusionsoft. So if those of you that are familiar with Infusionsoft know it’s a marketing automation platform. I was there as the director of marketing and eventually the vice president of marketing from 2007 to 2012. I left in 2012 and eventually started my own agency, which is Box out Marketing. And focus specifically on Infusionsoft customers. Helping them build and strategize their funnels to grow their businesses. So that’s kind of in a nutshell what we’re all about.
Jonathon: Oh, that’s great. And I thought Tyler would be a great person to have on the show to tell us about what his thoughts around marketing automization. How it could be linked into membership course websites and eLearning? And I also got my great cohost Adrian. Adrian would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Adrian: Hi everyone. My name is Adrian. I’m the CEO and founder of Groundhogg. And we produce marketing automation tools as well for WordPress specifically for anybody in the WordPress community. So if you need a marketing automation and sales tool, then you can head on over to groundhogg.io. And find out more about how you can install tools like Infusionsoft directly in your WordPress website.
Jonathon: That’s great. Before we start on the main part of the interview folks, I would to mention one of my great sponsors, and that’s Kinsta hosting. Kinsta only specializes in WordPress hosting with an emphasis on membership sites and Woocommerce. Anything that needs a little bit of extra performance. A slow website means lost customers, lost customers, means lost revenue. We have been with Kinsta for over two years, hosting the WP Tonic site. They are a fantastic hosting company. You get all the bells and whistles. You get Google cloud infrastructure, you get a fantastic UX interface. And the main thing is you get of the best support on the market today. 24/7 support from people that really got a passion for WordPress and hosting.
And every technician really knows what they’re talking about. So if that sounds interesting for yourself or for your clients. Go over to kinsta.com and mentioned that you heard about them from WP Tonic. So Tyler with Infusion, you’ve obviously had a lot of experience. I’m just going to ask you a really broad question to start off. Where do you think marketing automation is in 2019? And where do you think it’s going to be in a year’s time? Do you see any kind of trends at the present moment?
Tyler: Yeah, so when you look at, technically a technology lifecycle adaptation. Typically you get new technologies launched, early adopters, eventually and that technology kind of gets out to the masses. And then there’s often a kind of, in that process of splintering, there’s a bazillion companies that kind of jump onto that idea. And then there was a consolidation effort. Some of the bigger ones had to buy up all the other ones. And innovation tends to slow down during that period. And then oftentimes there’s another whole period of innovation. And where are we at right now? I feel like we’re approaching a consolidation phase. So there’s been you know these tools, Infusionsoft being the leader for many years, but a lot of them have developed they’re becoming pretty ubiquitous.
Most small businesses now are aware of some type of marketing automation, whether it is through chat bots or email marketing or whatever. And it’s all splintered. There’s all these different tools, a bunch of different software, a bunch of different approaches. It’s quite confusing actually. So I expect over the next few years, someone’s going to come along and start to gobble all this stuff up and consolidate it. And create kind of, here’s the master tool that manages all the tools of tools that automate everything from chatbots to email to whatever. Maybe that won’t happen, I don’t know. But I expect that something along those lines will start to happen. We’re also seeing a lot of this technology being simplified and pushed down to the more pragmatic buyer. Just the average small business mom and pop shop that never got into technology. Maybe even doesn’t have a web site or realizes hey, there are people out there, my audience is out there.
They’re on Facebook, they’re on Instagram, and they’re wherever. And I can use tools to attract them and get them to buy things. So anyways there’s this effort to get it out to everybody and have everybody utilizing these tools. And then there’s this consolidation thing that hasn’t happened yet, but I expect to happen. And with that, maybe an app for that, there’s a whole other period of innovation that will come. As people start to fight against the consolidation effort. And who knows what that’ll look like. For me, it’s just. It’s too far out there to even imagine what that looks like.
Jonathon: That’s great. Over to you Adrian.
Adrian: So for someone who’s hearing about maybe marketing automation for the first time, you said there’s these chatbots, there’s email. And there are all of these different venues. And you said it is all much splintered. From experience where’s the best place? If they’re absolutely new to it, where’s the best place for them to actually start doing their research? And maybe implement this in their business?
Tyler: Yeah, that’s a great question. I would say the best place to start is where you already have assets. And what I mean by that is do I already have an email list? Or maybe I’ve got a direct mail list or maybe I’ve already got a following on social media, whatever. But leveraging your existing assets is the best place to start because you’re gonna waste a lot less money. It’s really easy to go spend a lot of money based on someone’s recommendation. Hey, you should be on Facebook and you go and make ads and spend money to put content out there, whatever it is.
And it just may not work. So first place is start where you’ve already got some assets, where you’ve already got traffic or you’ve already got a list or you already got a following. Second place to look is where your audience is already. I’ve see so many people make the mistake of, oh, my consultant told me I should be on Facebook. So I go on Facebook and they don’t have no way of getting in front of their audience there. Or their audience isn’t there, or their audience is not responding to their staff, whatever. And they just spend a lot of money and effort wasting time to do that. Same thing with Google ads. Why someone told me I should spend money on Google ads to get traffic to my landing page to get them into my email system.
Well, that whole search thing can be complex and if you’re not good at it or you can’t find the people or whatever, then it’s just a waste. So step two is figuring out where your people already are. And oftentimes that’s through partners. Find someone who’s already done the work to gather your audience, do something with them, you know, do a joint webinar or do a promotion, do something. You know, it’s not always like, hey, just go get on Facebook like everyone says.
Adrian: Thank you, Jonathan.
Jonathon: `Yeah. So what are the kinds of customers that Box Out helps then? And is there any kind of typical problems that you see in a lot of your clients when they come to you?
Tyler: So our ideal client is typically a local service business. So it could be anywhere from a roofer to a doctor, to a lawyer to whatever. But local service businesses are in desperate need of automation tools. And partly for the automation so they can do more with less. But the big reason is for the follow-up. When you’re growing a small business, you’ve got traffic, you’ve got leads, and you’ve got customers. One of the hardest things to do is to follow up effectively with all those people because you have limited time and limited resources. But you got people coming in the door. So if you can utilize a tool like Infusionsoft, Active Campaign, Ontraport, even Mailchimp or whatever to follow up better with those people, then you’re gonna have better relationships with them. You’re gonna make more sale. You’re going to be able to grow.
Jonathon: All right, well that was great. Over to you Adrian.
Adrian: So you’re primarily with Infusionsoft?
Tyler: Yeah, we are 100% Infusionsoft and then I’ll say everything around that. So if someone comes to us and they want us to help them with their Infusionsoft account, we’re often going to be building landing pages, membership sites, even full websites, things like that. So we do a lot of web development in conjunction with Infusionsoft. And then all the third party tools that work with Infusionsoft, whether it’s appointment setting or sending text messages and things like that. We will likely in the next six to 12 months add active campaign to our mix. But right now we’re solely Infusionsoft.
Adrian: So from my days as an infusion soft certified partner, cause once upon a time, maybe two or three years ago, I was a certified partner for five years. I remember the various stages of business. You have your stage one business or stage two businesses, your stage three business, your stage four business.
Jonathon: Adrian, sorry to butt in. Did you become an Infusionsoft expert at the age of 8 then?
Adrian: At the age of 17.
Jonathon: Sorry folks, I was a bit on this.
Adrian: I did my certification at 17. I did the whole thing, got their certificate and the badge. Anyway, regardless of that, they had the stage one, the stage two, the stage three and the stage four. Would you mind running us through what those actual stages are? And then which stage so our listeners can self-identify and say, you know what, because Infusionsoft identifies for, with certain stages. And so they can self-identify, maybe this might be a tool that I would be able to use.
Tyler: Great. And I can send you guys a copy of this digitally if you want. But I actually keep this chart of what you are talking about. I keep it right here.
Adrian: There’s the chart.
Jonathon: There is a chart folks. He’s a true expert. Tyler, he’s got a chart
Adrian: It’s interesting. The more I do this, the more I interact with small businesses. The more I find this chart to be really a true guiding light in what small business growth is all about. So stage one is the solopreneur stage and they actually break down stage one into two different kind of subsets. When you first start your side business. You’re working a job or doing something else, you start your side business. That’s the first part of being a solopreneur. Second part is once you quit your day job and this becomes your sole source of income, you’re now self-employed. And then stage two is the new employer stage. So you’re just starting to hire your first person or two. Stage three is what they call a steady operation.
Now I’ve got a small team. We’re doing pretty well. Stage four is your seven figure business. So I’ve gotten to that million dollar mark. I’ve got a team behind me, cetera. Stage five is growth company. You know, now I’m at two to 10 million growing and maybe bringing on funding, getting some other sources. And we’ve got a real true operation going on there. So those are the stages. Infusionsoft works really, really well for the two to four stages. I’m just to give you a little more detail behind that. Stage one is kind of zero to 10 K per month. Stage two is you plus two or three other people and you’re doing maybe a hundred thousand to 300, 300,000 in revenue. Stage three, that steady operation, I’ve got a team of four to 10 people doing 300 K up to a million or show them seven figure businesses.
The stage fours that are 11 to 25 people doing one to 3 million. Stage five of courses, 3 to 10 million. We’ve got a team of 20 plus people or so. And of course, those numbers are going to vary based on, the type of business. Is it, eCommerce? Is it coaching and info products? Is it a lawyer down the street? They’re all gonna kind of have their own different subset of those numbers. But that’s the general idea. So we work with businesses that are typically in the two to four ranges, sometimes up to five. But for us, an ideal customer is someone who’s already got that kind of steady operation going. They’ve got a business, they’ve got traffic, or they’ve got a customer list. They’ve got products they’re currently selling. And we can help them grow much, much faster by putting good funnels in place and optimizing those funnels.
We don’t work with people who are in the first stages of product development, trying to figure out what they’re even going to do. And once they get 10 million and beyond, they’re too big for Infusionsoft anyway, so they’re not really on our radar.
Adrian: Nice. I think that summed it up pretty nicely. So if you’re a stage two to four, then this might be a tool you’re looking at. If you’re a stage one to two shameless plug and you don’t qualify to go work with Tyler, then you can come and work with me instead.
Tyler: That’s awesome. Adrian, you may be aware too that Infusionsoft recently rebranded. Now they’re called Keep.
Tyler: As of doing that, they launched a new product which is really more for the stage one and stage two businesses. Or at least it has pricing available. That’s easier to bring on when you’re doing $59 or $79 a month, instead of $300 a month for Infusionsoft. It’s much more simplified, a much easier interface, things like that. It’s really picking up steam. People like Keep a lot.
Adrian: Nice. So again, stage one to two, then you can also check out Keep.
Jonathon: We’re going to go for break folks. We will be back. We will be delving more in the world of marketing automization with a true expert Tyler. We’d be back in a few moments’ folks.
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Jonathon: We’re coming back. I’m away from my normal office and I’m melting in his coat. Very nice co-working facility in the city of Mount Shatner near the beautiful mountain. And I’m staying with some friends. And they’ve been very nice to me, these folks. But it’s a pretty hot room. So I’m boiling. So Tyler, so a lot of businesses, it’s all about getting more leads. They come to you because they want to get more leads. So can you outline when you’re first consulting with a client. Do you think what you offer, and what Infusion offers can actually get leads? Can you outline some of the things you, you outline to your clients?
Tyler: Yeah absolutely. One thing to note is that like you said, everyone thinks they need more leads. And that’s not always what they need. The first thing we do is, is cause them to question that? Are we asking the right question? And most people don’t ask the right questions when they’re trying to grow a business. And so therefore they make the wrong decisions. And so growing a business is much harder than it needs to be. Now, not that it’s ever going to be easy. If it were so easy, everyone would be doing it and everyone would be millionaires. It’s always going to be a challenge. But we can make it a lot easier by asking the right questions. The first question we need to ask is what does the data tell us? So Box Out is our company name.
It’s also an acronym. The B’s stands for baseline. The first thing we do with a client or with anyone we talk to is we establish a baseline. What are the numbers actually telling us? So we go and we get all the data on how many visits, how many new leads, how many new customers? What are the conversion rates? What are the open and click rates? What are the repeat purchase rates? All that kind of stuff. And then by looking at that, what we want to find is, and this is typically the question we’re asking at most stages of businesses. What is the rate limiting factor? What is the one thing that is preventing growth the most? So it might not be new leads. It might be the, hey, we’re getting lots of leads in the door. They’re just not converting.
And then we got another question. Do we need to work on the conversion process and the message and the offer and that kind of stuff? Or we are just getting the wrong traffic in? So it starts a whole other series of questions to get to the right answer. But it might be that, hey, we just needed to sell our existing customers more stuff. We need to do a better job upselling or repeat selling. We need to get more referrals. We need to do other stuff, not just get new leads. So, sorry to divert your question, but it’s really important I think, to understand that that feeling of, oh, I need to grow any more revenue. I just need more leads. Oftentimes drives poor behavior.
Adrian: I remember actually while we’re on this topic, I remember that presentation from icon a couple of years ago. There’s the three different ways to make more money. Essentially, there’s number one, more customers or more leads. Number two is selling more to the same leads. And number three is of course, just increase your prices.
Jonathon: I think a lot of people, not companies, lot of service businesses that are looking at this Tyler. It’s like get into a paralysis of action. They just don’t know where to begin. You know, they might want to look at this and do a few steps on their own before they call you in and your team. Have you got any kind of insights about if somebody in the company that’s in the area, you know, at the stage you outlined a couple questions ago some first steps that they could try in marketing automation?
Tyler: Yeah, I mean really it’s not rocket science. It really isn’t. If you take a database approach to it than most people can figure this out without having to hire someone like us. You want to hire someone like us if you just don’t have the time or the resources or whatever to do it, but you can figure it out. If you can create the time, you can figure it out. So again, it all starts with that baseline. Before you decide to do anything, get some data to back up your decisions. That is, that is step number one. And then once you have the data and you know what you need to focus on. I need to focus on getting new leads or I need to focus on, you know, converting leads better. I need to focus on upselling better, whatever it may be.
Then you can go find resources, training, education, whatever specific that particular thing. It’s very easy to find a good education out there, even for free or for, you know, low dollar amounts once you know what you’re supposed to actually be doing. But if I’m just going to start guessing or listening to a consultant or listening to some other experts about what I should do in my business and then trying that, you’re just going to spin your wheels. And that’s why people get frustrated. That’s why people get disenfranchised. That’s why people start to, to think that all internet marketers are scammers because they try stuff that’s recommended and it doesn’t work well. It may not work because you’re doing the wrong thing in your business at the wrong time. So that’s really for anyone who’s trying to do this on their own, that is the first step. Is getting some data about where you’re at and what you need to focus on. Then get the education you need.
Jonathon: And where would you suggest they get that first data? What are the tools and the fundamentals in getting that data Tyler?
Tyler: Yeah, so you can get the data with likely whatever tools you have. Let’s say you’re got a website with some traffic, you’ve got constant contact for example. And then your sales system might be totally disconnected. If your local service business, you might be processing sales over the phone in house through QuickBooks, who knows? So you’re gonna have to gathering data from a few different sources. That’s one of the benefits of using a tool like Infusionsoft as you can start to bring a lot of that data into one place. But it doesn’t really matter. If I have a website, I can get Google analytics for free. I can install it super, super easily. If I have an email marketing system, like constant contact, Mailchimp, whatever, I can see basic data in there, how many people are on this list, what’s my open rate, what’s my click rate?
Then I can see my sales wherever that’s happening. How many people are actually ending up buying? And so first step is probably just to set up a spreadsheet and start pulling the data from the different sources. Month to month to month and looking at it and seeing, you know, where, where the opportunities, where are the gaps. And if you’re not familiar with what that data should look like or what it can look like, you might need to get an outside source to look at it and say, Oh yeah, your conversion rates low. You might not know what a low conversion rate is, or a low click rate or whatever. So you might need to get a little outside input. So to look at that, but that’s the first step.
Jonathon: That’s great. Over to you, Adrian.
Adrian: So I was thinking of a question. I couldn’t think of the one. So if you have a follow up, I’m gonna just gonna let you.
Jonathon: Yeah, sure. There’s a few kind of buzzwords. You know, there are always things that people are really talking lot about in this area. Bots are one of them. Facebook messenger is another text messaging, automated citation, free text messaging. So I’ve just thrown out kind of free buzzword areas. Which one of those bots, Facebook messenger, text messaging. Do you have used yourself and your company and do you think you can the best one that could get results? I know what you’re probably going to say is it depends on the circumstances of the business. But I was hoping that you might give some insight being that your team doing this day in and day out?
Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a really good question. That’s often what people want. Like just tell me which tool I should use, which approach should I use? Which strategy?
Jonathon: I never promise originality in this interview Tyler.
Tyler: That’s okay. So well we have a lot of experience with internally is text messaging? And I’ll say we’ve used text a lot for Lee captured follow up and conversion. Okay. And so what I mean by that is for those people that speak onstage, text messaging is a great way to capture leads. You get up on stage, you’re giving your presentation and you say, hey, if you want my free thing or you want a copy of my slides or whatever, just text this keyword to this number. And then you can have a whole automated conversation that happens. Great John or great, thanks for requesting my slides. Thanks for requesting my slides. What’s your first name? You reply back Jonathan. Then it comes back to you. Great Jonathan, where would you like us to send your slides?
Which email address? You type it in and all of a sudden I’ve got your email address, you’re on my list for email. I can follow up with you by text, things like that. So it’s a really, really effective way. So like you said, it depends. It depends on the scenario. If you’re speaking from stage or you have a way to get a phone number and some of someone text message can be a great way for opt in, then follow up. We use texts a lot for reminders as well. Webinar reminders, appointment reminders, things like that. Because everyone’s got their phone with them all the time. So that text boom, just getting that alert is a great way for those immediate types of reminders and communications. But it’s not going to be good for attracting traffic that you’re not in front of. That’s where a Facebook messenger bot is going to be great.
Now you can target audiences, have face messenger, bot, Facebook messenger by pop up, ask questions, engage, have an automated conversation there, get them into a funnel. That happens either continually through the Facebook messenger or even get them into your email list that way as well. So they both can be very effective. We have more experience for text, but Facebook messenger bot, I actually was just on the phone yesterday with an expert. You know, getting some ideas about how we might incorporate that into our services or even do it for ourselves. Things like that. So they can both be effective. Depends on kind of your strategy, what you’re trying to do.
Jonathon: Yeah, I haven’t really seen any examples, case studies; anything that really I thought was great around Facebook messenger. I’ve seen your example conferences. I know there are services that are pacifically aimed at individuals doing exactly what you outlined with your example. Because I had a client come to me a few days ago and we did a little bit of research for them. And we found a couple of companies that we thought were legit. And we sent that particular client their way. Because they seem to be offering the service that they were looking at. Over to you Adrian.
Tyler: I’ll just come in real quick too. I’m with Facebook messenger where I’ve seen with clients of ours and the expert that I talked with yesterday. Is that Facebook messenger bots work really, really well in transactional type businesses, e-commerce? And so yeah, you pop up a Facebook message, Hey, would you like 10% off such and such and then hours, yes. Great. Where would you like to send the coupon, this email, you know, whatever. So you can get that kind of quick transactions and stuff to happen there. But you know, I haven’t seen it effectively used with service businesses. Maybe there’s a way, maybe as a strategy we haven’t figured out yet, but e-commerce tends to be the way or the area where that’s working well.
Jonathon: That’s a great point Tyler. I totally agree with you. Over to you Adrian.
Adrian: So for someone I’m going to go back to like the new business and this is all new for two of them again. And you know, they’re listening to us talk and they’re like, wow, this is all over my head. When someone comes to you and they’re kind of that space, what do you offer them as the lowest hanging fruit of actually seeing some, results quickly? Like everybody wants to see something like change, like they want to see a number get bigger, they want to see revenue get bigger. So in your experience, what’s the lowest hanging fruit for someone to like just like jump in and actually see some results quickly?
Tyler: Yeah, yeah. It kinds of depends on whether I would their business and in what they need help with the most. So we offer our agency services, which are going to be way out of the price range for a lot of people. And then we also have online training which is easily consumable by most of the people. And so depending on where they’re at with their business, how much money they have to invest what the stakes are for them, things like that. We might steer them one direction or the other.
Adrian: What is the expected investment?
Tyler: So with Infusionsoft the standard monthly fee that people are gonna be paying just for that software is about $300 a month. And then to get really working for you if you’re not gonna be the one building all the campaigns yourself and things like that. You’re going to spend anywhere between a thousand to $5,000 a month. Depending on how much you need actually build that kind of stuff.
So our standard services, we charge $3,000 a month for kind of our standard package. That’s kind of the range where that’s at.
Adrian: It`s really like a stage two, stage three type area.
Tyler: Definitely, definitely. We actually target more stage three and four for that service. And then our membership site where people can get training on Infusionsoft, training on strategy and kind of what you’re saying, you know, how to identify the low hanging fruit and go after it. That kind of stuff. We have a few different tiers, but you’re looking at a hundred, a couple hundred dollars a month for access to our membership where they get you know, recorded training courses, things like that. But also they get access to us through weekly open office hours calls where they can get it on there, ask for help, get answers to questions and things like that.
Adrian: So in terms of strategy though, if someone, I know you said it depends on the business. But at least in my experience, most businesses benefit from sending email, which is one of the most primary things that Infusionsoft does. So in terms of a strategy, what do you think someone would be able to do relatively quickly on their own without any outside help?
Tyler: Yeah, so the first question I’m going to ask someone in that situation is what do we have to work with right now? You know, like I asked before, what are the assets that we have? Typically if they’re using Infusionsoft, they got an email list, they got an email list. Then most likely, like if they want to see results right now and usually within, they say results, they want money. Then what we’re going to do is some kind of flash sale or some kind of offer to get people interested in a higher dollar sale.
Adrian: So standard broadcast.
Tyler: Yeah, we’re gonna usually we’ll do it as a sequence. We’ll set up, you know, five or six emails over the course of three or four days and I’m kind of hard and you know, have a really sexy offer involved there. And get people to either purchase that offer or if it’s a higher dollar offer, they’re opting in to talk to someone about purchasing that thing. So that’s usually the easiest, fastest thing to do right there. Or it really is the same strategy, different audience. Go and find all of your hyper buyers and put together a package and put an offer right in front of those people. People who are already buying stuff, they already love you. You’ve got a great chance at getting a good response.
Adrian: Option two is sell more stuff to the same people.
Tyler: That’s true. That’s true.
Adrian: Thank you, Jonathan.
Jonathon: Yeah. We’re going to wrap up the podcast part of the show. Tyler, how can people find out more about you and your company Box out Marketing?
Tyler: Yeah, thank you. So yeah, people can just go to boxoutmarketing.com. They can find out all about us there on the website. If you want a free strategy session, just click the button in the upper right. That’ll take it to a page where you can fill out the form. You’ll get on with one of our account managers. They can help start that process of analyzing the data and understanding your business and recommending next steps for you. So we’d love to chat with you. That’s great.
Jonathon: And Adrian can people find out more about you and your company?
Adrian: So if you’re a stage one or a stage two company and you’re looking to add marketing automation and email marketing to this set of tools that you’re going to use in order to grow your business. Then you can go on over to Groundhogg with two g`s dot io in order to find out about our WordPress plugin that you just installed into your site and get started with that process. There are a lot of templates in there to help you get started and actually capture that lowest hanging fruit relatively quickly.
Jonathon: Oh, that’s great folks. Then we can wrap up the podcast part of the show. Hopefully Tyler can stay on for another 10 minutes. I’m going to ask him what his views on open source software, WordPress and does he use it? Does his agency use it? And how does he mix open source with an enclosed system like Infusionsoft. If you’re interested in WP Tonic, we help e-learning entrepreneurs build custom solutions on WordPress. If you are fed up with your priority system like Teachable or Kajabi. Or you want to stay with WordPress and you want the flexibility, we can help you with a number of plans and customizations that we can help you with. We will see you next week when we have a similar expert like Tyler, given their insights to make your business more successful or allowing you to help your clients have a more successful business. We will see you next week folks. Bye.
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