How to Buy and Manage Subscriptions on Behalf of Clients
AppBind is an app that automatically track and securely expense all future charges to your client from a single pane of glass.
AppBind lets you as an agency manage the procurement of software subscriptions on behalf of your clients. You’re the expert recommending software. Why awkwardly ask your clients to purchase things they don’t understand?
AppBind takes the risk out of agencies buying and managing subscriptions for their clients. We automatically and securely track and expense all the subscription charges to your clients, plus more (like add a management fee or discount, and automatically failover to backup credit cards).
Sunir is the CEO of AppBind, which is a new service that is transforming the relationship between digital agencies and the software companies they use. AppBind takes the risk out of agencies buying and managing subscriptions for their clients, so agencies can take care of all the software complexity on a project.
Sunir is also the President of the Cloud Software Association, the network of 2500 SaaS partnership executives. He’s been trying to make it easier for software companies and agencies to serve customers better, together for over 10 years.
Adrian: Hello listeners and welcome back to the WP tonic podcast. We have an excellent guest here with us, actually one that I recommended in that I know a little bit about. Welcome, Sunir near to the WP tonic podcast. How are you today?
Sunir: I’m doing very well. Thank you so much and I’m a big fan of you too.
Adrian: I didn’t know I had a fan, so thank you.
Sunir: I will be the president of your fan club because I need another trade association.
Adrian: Thank you. And of course, I am joined by the actual host of this show Jonathan Denwood is with me today. How are you, Jonathan?
Jonathon: I’m doing great Adrian; you’re doing a great job. I just want to give Adrian an insight into doing the intro listeners and viewers. I won’t be here next week Arian is going to be doing the interview on his own so we thought we’d do a dry run.
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All right, so welcome Sunir to the show. Why don’t you start off with just telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are? We always love hearing the origin story of our guests, so that’s like the Dark Knight rises. So just tell us a little bit about how did you got to where you are today.
Sunir: It’s a radioactive pizza. So I got here the very Securitas, right. Some people would say would have been all makes sense to me. I live partnership land and I love software and I love stitching it together from a partnership side of things.
Adrian: Something that WordPress is really good at, stitching stuff together.
Sunir: Yes, alright, I know lots of people at WordPress and people who work with WordPress. It’s a very interesting ecosystem with lots of opinions, about lots of things, which is great. And so that’s my diplomatic way of saying it’s an interesting space for partner people. But, if for those of you who know a company called Fresh Books, probably a lot of you use it for your invoicing. I started the marketing team there in 2007, but my background is computer science, I’m a software developer. I only have been in marketing through a series of unfortunate life decisions.
Adrian: As anybody ever is, really.
Sunir: Yeah, it’s true. The parties were better and I would say that if I just hung on long enough for the micro-brew revolution, I would have been a developer. But the parties were just better at marketing at the time, and I ended up a marketer. But in like my stick have always been partnerships. So I took over the platform and all the partnerships of Fresh Books and I ran that for five years. While I was there, I created something called the cloud software association, which is, now Adrian; you’re part of it actually.
So it’s all the SAS partnership people and that’s really the purpose of that as partner people we all need to know each other and know what’s going on with each other. There are lots of skills to learn as a partnership person that you don’t ever learn in school and you often come from like [inaudible 00:04:27], sales or marketing [inaudible
00:04:29] everyone else’s skills and we like drinking.
So as a trade association, that was pretty much a no brainer. We literally incorporated because our bar-bill one year got to $32,000 and I said, okay, that’s enough. We’re the Shriners of tech, awesome, no hat stuff.
Adrian: Tell us a little bit about what you’re doing now.
Sunir: Yes, through all of that, living in partner land there was a problem that we kept banging our heads in. Like the whole industry and I was talking about it and people, you know, when you talk about something, and complaint about something enough, people just go, can you just fix it already? And so I fixed it. So the problem that I think everyone has faced, especially in your audience is if you are an agency and you are building a project for a client, how do you procure those subscriptions that are part of the project or the client?
And you end up in this very awkward situation where you get the client to buy things that they don’t really understand what it is that you’re buying. It’s very similar to if your plumber asks you to buy flux to fix your sink. Like, what is flux, fix my sink? What is all this Envato, what is Envato like, what is that?
Adrian: Right you expected that you come and you’re paying for the service, you come with the stuff.
Sunir: Yeah, exactly, and its like WordPress is a very complicated universe and getting your clients to buy their own plugins and stuff is very complicated. So posting, there’s a million things you have to buy, buy ads may be buying those things, you should take care of that. Its part of your white-glove service to clients. But it’s hard because the credit card subscriptions, but I found solution. So Appvine, which is my company, what we do is that we allow you to procure those subscriptions.
We make a new credit card fees subscription, you plug it in. With those Alpine Cards, the charges flow into your Appvine account to be managed, you can then expense it to your clients automatically. If you link the client’s credit card into your system, you invite them in. All the accountings tracked by client individually. If you want to, you can add and you should, by the way, add your management fees for managing your IT stack. I’ve never had a client ever complain about you taking over IT from them cause otherwise, you started involving their it team.
If they have one, if they don’t have one, they don’t have one and that’s an objection already, it’s part of your service. You’re the person they hired so you can provide great white glove, a high value service to your clients by taking on the part of the stack that they hired you to do. It was just not very easy to do before. And if anyone here has ever had to buy stuff on your own credit card for clients, you just know what a bookkeeping nightmare, but Appvine automates all of that. It just flows it right through, you don’t take any financial risks if the clients card is in the system and we just pass it on. We give you all the individual accounting, we even allow you to put backup cards because this happens to me every Christmas.
I don’t know why Christmas, but cards get stolen and then I have to go to my client’s account at 3:00 AM and update all the credit cards with my personal card and then I have to go and get them to go update it. That’s all gone with Appvine, its all managed since Appvine. All these little tiny problems should not be problems. You should be focused on your client and not this problem and we solved that. I’m really proud that we found this solution. It was very difficult to build because I have to change the credit card system and the network. But visa has been a great partner and we have a really unique solution.
Adrian: That’s awesome, it’s like half the time we tell people to like go buy, that’s when I used to work in an agency half the time we told people to go buy stuff, they end up buying the wrong thing half the time. But then you have to go through the refund process and then you get them like, well, I’m not buying the new thing, but like every [inaudible 00:07:54], it’s a whole problem. So I commend you for coming up with a solution and building a solution for us agency people.
Sunir: I’m saving the world one subscription at a time.
Adrian: One subscription. I love —
Sunir: It’s my origin story [inaudible 00:08:11] active pizza and now here we are the heroes.
Adrian: I love that. Is that the folds on the website you should go to?
Sunir: In my Twitter profile still says I’m a bad dancer, but maybe I should say–
Adrian: Saving the world one subscription at a time, I love it. But you do have a huge background in partnerships. So Jonathan, why don’t you talk to Sunir a little bit about partnerships?
Jonathon: Well, Sunir, actually what I was going to ask you was that as you described your product, it sounds fabulous and I really mean that. I mean, there’s obviously a real need for it, but it’s not a totally simple pitch. Is it? As there been obstacles that you’ve had to overcome in the actual marketing message because people’s attention is in 2019 is pretty slim, isn’t it? They’re bombarded by all these different messages and yours is not the simplest message, but it’s a great service, isn’t it?
Sunir: Well, it’s a good question. So this is a relatively new product that we’ve been marketing and in fact, this is how we met Andrew. We’ve been at [inaudible 00:09:26]. That’s what we started marketing the product in that around April. So this year we’ve been doing it for a few months before that. But when you market things you start improving your pitches. What I’ve learned is Alpine, the value for agencies, it’s all about like our customer is the agency, right? Then you’re customers, the customer, right. The SAS vendors think they are the most important thing, right? But the software companies are not the most important thing, they are the part the customer is the most important thing. What I ended up drawing upon was my own experience as a consultant.
What is it consultant for? Clients only hired agencies, honestly, when they have anxiety and the consultant lowers the anxiety, that’s what every consultant does. If you raise their anxiety, you’re fired. Yes, 100% always the case. That’s basically what you do and sometimes you deliver stuff, they never even use it. They feel a lot better working with you and that’s really what matters.
Adrian: It’s actually; you bring up a good point. I can’t imagine the number of times we used to do training and people would come to the training and just make them feel good. Even if they never implemented anything from the training, they just felt better.
Sunir: Yes, that’s really honestly what people want. And so the pitch of Alpine, it’s about a mechanic. It’s like, this is what it comes down to, anxiety, you’re your job basically, I called it was like the therapist for my clients. I was like, maybe I was being more management consultants, CEOs, and stuff and executives, but even with staff and it’s all the same problem. You never go outside your organization to an agency, right? If you had an organization, because you just annoy staff, you’re saying you can’t do it, it’s like, always lots of issues with going to consultants and there’s, you don’t have control, but they only do it because the pain is so high.
That they’re willing to trust someone else and your job is to make that pain, justify it by saying, I’m your good doctor, I’ll take care of you. And so the pitch with Alpine, it starts with the mechanic of like the credit cards and the buying subscriptions, but the real pain fundamentally is that you, does it matter? Nope. It just happens to be internet software but any contractor anywhere, like my general contractor who did my basement. This is my renovated basement.
I just hired him to do all this stuff and he hired the furnace installers, the furnace installers, negotiate with the furnace company, and they got the warranty signed for the house. I don’t know how to get any of that stuff, they took care of it, I just paid the general contractor. I have a beautiful basement now, no pain for me. Your job as an when you’re selling to the client, I will take care of this for you. But the problem with internet software and ads and all these things is you’re making your client interface with the supplier directly and it’s confusing. It’s awkward and they make mistakes, and it takes time, then they’re suddenly getting into the weeds and they hired you to handle it.
And it just, it’s just a very awkward situation, I call it the love triangle. These software companies are trying to fight for control of the customer. And you want to hold the customer too, and you’re both fighting for the love of their customer. The customer hates it. They really don’t, even if they want to control the subscription, it’s because they’re afraid of you. Like they’re afraid that if you had control of their stack and they want to fire you, which is basically the reason why they want it directly.
In case they don’t like you, they won’t have control of the stack. So they just can’t get their subscriptions back from you, but Alpine even handles this. Yes, we’re putting it into production soon, where we can transfer all the subscriptions to the client in one click once you’re done with them. We just reassign the credit card numbers to them, that’s the mechanic, so everything at Alpine lowers anxiety of the client.
Jonathon: So how, you were explaining the benefits to the agency for the agency and the client in a direct way? Can you describe, have you had to change your approach based on the feedback that you’ve got?
Sunir: Yes, absolutely. So I started off, you know, you got to start somewhere, so with the mechanics, because I’m just trying to resonate the actual product itself, like the credit card thing we’re doing. Now what I’m focused on, because it’s actually real. I want to support you as an agency to be the expert that you are, for your clients. So you can take care of them in a white glove way. Your clients want you to take care of them.
We want to get rid of the awkward triangle, love triangle. We want you to provide them with great white-glove service. In the beginning, you recommended this software because you’re the expert, right. You should manage the negotiation with the vendor, the procurement, the setup, the integration, the management, and the ongoing negotiation with the vendors. You should keep up with product updates, security updates, and the vendor. You should appraise the client on what’s going on. That’s what they hired you for.
They don’t know any of this stuff, that’s why they hired you. But if you don’t have the ability to manage the software and the relationships around that software for the client, then it’s going to be harder. You want to do it in a way that doesn’t create risk for your clients; you don’t want it to generate problems where are you doing this. You want to do it in a way that it’s still their intellectual property, it’s still their subscriptions and you’re managing it for them, and you should be able to make money doing it.
So what Alpine is all about is making digital agencies stronger, better, better partners for their, for their customers, better partners for the software company taking a risk down for everybody involved. That’s really the core of the benefit. And the mechanic, the thing that’s blocking you is that you just had no ability to die and manage software, licenses, and subscriptions. But Alpine is basically allowing you to do that because we’ve figured out that mechanic–
Jonathon: Before I refer over to Adrian, the reason why I lay a bid on this is because obviously what you’re saying is a win-win. It’s a win for the agency and it’s a win for the client. The client wants control over those licenses but that by on the same breath they want the agency to do everything. Without your product, there’s a contradiction, so you’re solving a contradiction to feelings basically, wanting somebody to take over everything but still wanting control.
But the reason why I labeled it, is that anybody that’s got a service or a product, all the people that listen to this podcast, what you think is really clear probably isn’t clear to your target audience. So if you’re got a course or whatever you’re selling, you really got a label about how you’re getting there because you know so much about your company or service or product. What you think is obvious isn’t obvious to your target audience. So I’m just going to throw it over to Adrian.
Adrian: I’d love to know if there are like, I know that you’ve been building it for a long time. How long has it actually been like active with customers and agencies using it?
Sunir: Actively since April. So we’ve been like, we got people out of like the test mode into, they’re actually putting in [inaudible 00:16:32] clients and it’s been growing, every week we’re onboarding another happy agency.
Adrian: Do we have like happiness metric yet? For example, an agency before and after Do we have like number of retained clients or customer happiness or do we have any metrics on that yet?
Sunir: Well, what we measure right now is, they adding more than the test subscription? So they always, you know, every agency starts with one subscription because this is such a new concept. R.
Sunir: It’s like, what is this?
Adrian: It’s just like a digital credit card only?
Sunir: Yes, it’s a virtual community; it is a virtual credit card. It’s a true credit card but it is a little bit different. We had to change it, we have to get a visa as platform partner. It will be invested in to make the changes to the credit card unit.
Adrian: How many subscriptions are businesses adding these days?
Sunir: Well, we have roughly a hundred different products running going through the system on any given month.
Adrian: That’s solid.
Sunir: Yes. The other measure we also have is how many different types of services, because we want to see like the breath of the scope. And yet it’s actually as long as it takes a credit card it works. And there are actually quite a number of things. Just [inaudible 00:17:48] products out there, I don’t even know half of them. I thought I knew most of the software companies. But there are always little things like you guys. I never would have known about you, but you’re not another product that people would have bought and [inaudible 00:17:59] 50,000 different plugins.
Adrian: And on that note, I’m so interested to learn more, but we do have to go for a break. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to take a small break and then we’re going to come back and we’re going to learn so much more about all of the benefits that managing subscriptions for your clients can do. All right, we’ll be back with you shortly.
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Adrian: And we’re back, we’re talking to Sunir Shaw from the cloud software association and from Appvine a new service that exists to remove the anxiety in between customers and their billing with their agencies. So we were just talking about how Sunir had been operating actively or rather Alpine has been operating actively since April. They have over a hundred products currently running through their software. And at this point, I’m going to throw it over to Jonathan who is going to have some interesting question for him.
Adrian: So you had these gems of idea and we’re not going on other people’s podcasts and interviewed and asked about, should I build the course or build the product? And I say no, you need to confirm that there’s actually a demand for this. So when you were doing to this gem of idea but how did you confirm that there was a real need for this before you started building out and investing all the time and money in building this fantastic platform.
Sunir: That’s a great question. And first, you can always do more. So everyone I know who starts, yes, answering generically for your audience who are trying to reflect on everyone who starts, feels like they could have done more. But if you’ve done enough that you feel like people reflecting your core idea back to you and you can reflect back the product idea back to you, then you know that it’s simple enough, they get it and there are enough people who will get it so that I have an advantage, right.
I have two advantages, one, I was at Fresh Books and I started the marketing team and I ran partnerships there and while I was on, partnerships doesn’t mean any kind of partnerships. I did a lot of work with customers, tens of thousands of creative web agencies and freelancers. I’ve talked to all different Fresh Books one way or the other, in person. Probably four or 5,000 and so in that period of time this issue came up over and over and over and over and over and over and over again because you can’t do time and materials billing if the material is a subscription and that was a problem.
Then for when I was running partnerships there, I see we tried for two or three years I think to build, like a reseller portal around Fresh Books. And it was just the diversion of capital and engineering and core product. It was always an insane concept because you need to stay competitive, great. Why would you take these resources away from the core product? Yeah. And never made sense to, even though we were a billing system for our resellers, because you know Fresh Books is a special place because it is an invoicing tool for clients.
So we could have been the building for ourselves. Even then, it didn’t make any sense because we were trying to control a part of the business for the agencies. And so I got to talk to a lot of agencies that way. And the second part is all these software companies and SAS companies through the trade association. I know all the partnership people and this comes on like I run this conference every year called SAS connect. It’s been 10 years now. It’ll be coming up next year. It’ll be 10 years. So this year I started in 2019. It’s 10 years actually. I’m like, how old am I?
Jonathon: I can’t help you there, you look very young.
Sunir: I had hair when we started. Anyway, so then yeah, we talked about it like every year and every year I would do the state of the industry every year my keynote would be, well, recent would channel would not, it’s not working. My background actually as a software developer is a [inaudible 00:22:33] because I started off in the Microsoft channel in telecom. It was all retail and distribution, and it just blew my mind like how difficult it was to do distribution with cloud software. And if you look at the numbers, like the economic numbers, SAS may be growing and everyone’s like very excited about all these IPOs that are upside down right now.
Adrian: [Inaudible 00:22:57] not doing too good.
Sunir: No, that’s too bad. I’m friends with everybody and so I smiled, but as someone interested in the industry I don’t enjoy these kinds of upside down in numbers. Like if you look at look at global GDP, a BDB SAS last year was like 82 billion roughly according to Gardner, I think, or IDC. But Microsoft’s revenue was over $120 billion alone, like one company, way bigger than all the entire industry globally. And the reason why is Microsoft they are very adamant that like over 90%, and they would prefer higher.
Like over 95% of the revenue comes from partners. You don’t want to sell directly to the customers. They might build up there, and for every dollar that Microsoft makes, they want to make sure that their ecosystem makes $8. So Microsoft is actually a trillion-dollar global ecosystem. They take, [inaudible 00:23:55]. And so that is a difference between channels. And when you talk about in software, when we talk about channel, we actually mean Microsoft.
Like that’s what almost everyone means is the Microsoft ecosystem because everything is built around what they did in the eighties licensed software. So that kind of stuff gave me the idea that the economics is [inaudible 00:24:18] and then talking to all the software companies and they’re all banging their head against. And I can see the trends as well. From this even to speaker submissions for SAS connect, because it’s changed from integrations now to all channels.
Everyone’s like banging your head against referral now and you can’t get resell going and then talking to the agencies directly. And also like me and my whole experience at Fresh Books talking so many agencies and just this pain that they have of like, what is their value? Like a lot of the SAS companies too. I mean, you listen to a lot of the major like growth blogs, news, cap conferences, and SAS is like how much customer life customer value you can take as a SAS company.
And that means, when you’re doing everything, success and implementation, services, and everything that needs to be your agency ecosystem, we used to do that. What SAS companies are doing in order to get more and more wallet share and control more and more of the customer, is it’s squishing out the channel. And you can see the growth ceilings where SAS companies are usually in the tens or maybe like five or six-figure subscriptions. A company–
Jonathon: Well, I don’t know how far you agree with this because basically what you’re saying is because based on your past experience, because of the uniqueness of you, working with Fresh book and then your association you didn’t have, you probably did a bit, but you didn’t feel you knew the pain that you were going to relieve with your products. So you didn’t have to do quite so much basic research.
The other thing I think you’re saying and I agree with you, is to some extent you see agencies actually building software for Pacific verticals, Pacific industries. And so they use software as an added value mechanism two be hired. And then you see on the other side you see software companies encroaching on agencies on the service part and offering added value by encroaching on the normal hand-holding element like agencies do. Would you agree with that?
Well, that’s exactly it. I mean first I would say I did, I did have a beta list of a hundred people saying that was I needed to get to like a hundred right before and beta list don’t convert a 100% but a hundred percent people can reflect back my idea back to me, I think everyone has basic table stakes. You need depending on your markets, like your ACV or target you need like so many numbers of people to say this makes sense to me. I can reflect it back to you as [inaudible 00:27:02] that are table stakes. You just need to do that. And it’s just phone calls and emails.
But like the pain that came back was this love triangle. I wasn’t the one who came up with the word love triangle just came in a conversation, with an agency and they just felt like it was like love triangle and its like, Oh that’s interesting. And they started using that language with everybody has everyone suddenly instantly got it. Because they could see like everyone’s, you can’t have fights when you’re working with partners over the customer, because you’re supposed to partner to go to customer together. So everyone could feel the problem. And I starting to get that reflected back to me, but no one had an answer.
No one could solve the problem. That was also an interesting thing. Actually, the [inaudible 00:27:50] said, Sunir, you’re the president of [inaudible 27:53] association, you should solve the problem, its your answer.
Adrian: So we’ve got about five minutes before we’re going to end and then hopefully you’ll be able to stay on for some bonus content, about 10 minutes after the end of the show. But before we do, I’m just curious, what do you think that that software as a service companies can be doing in order to enable the relationship that you want to be had? Because you’re saying that, yes, we want control of the customer because software isn’t always necessarily inclined for the success of the agency.
They want the customer to be successful. So they’re fighting that relationship and trying to provide the customer with the tools, not necessarily the agency of the tools. Something that I did just on a side note is, we started our partner program. So we’re actually very interested in supporting agencies and people that, that wants to do all the implementation. We’re not necessarily as interested in making sure the client as long as you’re interested in making the client successful. So that’s not so [inaudible28:51] maybe like my business. But there are businesses out there that are super interested. What do you recommend for businesses that need maybe or listening or at least if you’re a customer, look for businesses that are doing this, that will enable that relationship a little bit more?
Sunir: Yes, absolutely. First, by the way, I have a very excellent; out of all of these conversations I’ve compiled like a very extensive and simple know how-to guide for any software company attempting to go to channel. So email me a [email protected] and I will send you that. It is a very detailed like step-by-step and highly compressed, like just all the things you need to do to get going. You can put together a channel program in a week if you wanted to.
People overthink it. The most important thing a software company has to do is stop thinking they’re the most important part of that relationship. The most important part of that relationship is the customer hired their agency to be their expert, right? Your job as a software company is to enable that expert to serve that customer. They’re your partner, not your extended sales team.
Right, number two, anything you do to increase the risk to the agency, you’re dead. They’re going to get rid of you because you’ve increased the risk to them. Increase the risk of the customer. Anxiety goes up, good-by agency. You’re obviously not the most important part of that equation. And number three is anything you can do to lower the risk is good. So I mean it’s all about anxiety. Anything you can lower the risk. So basic stuff, talk to your agencies. So many people just don’t, no newsletter, no email, no slack community, nothing. Just talk to them.
Be available for them, even if it’s just like by email, queue ticketing, be available. Put a landing page up, collateral newsletters; make sure they’re informed of product changes a day or two before they’re coming out. It’s just basic respect because they don’t want to be surprised, that’s a risk if you can send them customers. So the agencies that do well for you, you’re going to have customers that have implementation needs be willing to give up your growth of your success team to build your partners because the partners will take you to more customers.
Infusion soft now keep rebranding very interesting in this case. I had no idea that he was going to do this when I invited him to keynote the conference but they completely changed. They love their employees and they love customers but they got rid of their customer success team and converted all the partner success and then now 90% of their onboarding goes through partners instead of their internal team. And they have to do that to grow the ecosystem. That is what Microsoft did [inaudible 00:31:31] and that’s a bit far for a lot of companies.
But think about can I actually give this up to create room for these agencies to take over. Hubspot is an amazing example of a company that has built an entire market place around this. WordPress’s another great community because it started as an open source community of building up all of these agencies and giving up a lot of value to the agencies and they already created a much more vibrant ecosystem. Hubspot’s a good example though because it’s a central company, it’s not open source. We can measure the results.
They claim, they are a public company, 40% of the revenue comes from agencies over a hundred million dollars annual recurring revenue from agency. So it’s like a high impact. I assume WordPress likes even more so. But it’s harder to measure because it’s not centralized, but it’s like that kind of thing. You ever think about what you can give over and help them lower the risks, talk to them. Communication is a secret to all relationships. What does surprise.
Adrian: Thank you; there are some tips for you. If you, if you’re listening to this and you have a company that you want to go channel, you want to create a vibrant community. Those are some of the steps you have to do. You can email Sunir and speaking while we’re going to end the podcast now and then hopefully you’ll stay on for some bonus content. But why don’t you tell us how people and where people can go to find more about you and what you are up to.
Sunir: Fantastic, so appvind.com is the name of the company and my email address is [email protected] Just please email me I’m happy to answer questions. It’s like favorite thing to do and if you want to join the trade association because you’re interested in partners and channel either as an agency or a software company or distributor marketplace. We’re trying to make it all work. It’s cloud software association.com. It’s free to join. Although you know, the general rule is you should buy drinks occasionally. That’s partner people. Thank you.
Adrian: Thank you, Jonathan how can people, I’m sure they know where to go, but I’m going to ask anyways since I’m hosting, where should people go to find out more about you and what you’re up to?
Jonathon: If you want to be a partner with us, you’re a designer, a consultant, WordPress consultant or agency and you’ve got a client and you’re looking for development partner in the learning space with the learning management system, WP -tonic can help you. And the easiest way is just to go to the WP-tonic.com website. We’ve got a load of results, great interviews blog posts all around how you can build a successful course and [inaudible 34:07]
Adrian: And my name is Adrian. I’m the CEO and founder of groundhogg. We build marketing and sales tools for businesses that use WordPress, email marketing, CRM sales pipeline, all of that good stuff. If you want to ditch your software as a service company and stop paying those hefty $299 monthly fees, then you can use our tools, which are more or less comparable for absolutely free. You can go to Groundhogg.io in order to find out more about that or free plugin also hosted on the WordPress repository, wordpress.org/plugins/Groundhog.io. Thank you for joining us and we will see everybody next week. Goodbye. Thank you so much.
Announcer: Thanks for listening to WP tonic the podcast that gives you a spoonful of WordPress medicine twice a week.
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