We Discuss Divi and its Community
Andrew has been a leading thought leader inside the Divi community for a number of years but also runs a number of niche businesses that are linked to Divi. Recently he has started with a founder a really interesting service called Pagebuildercloud which is services that allow you save Elementor, BeaverBuilder and a number of other page builder plugin templates to the cloud so you can use them early connected to other projects.
Jonathon: Welcome back folks to the WP tonic show. It’s episode 434. We’ve got a great guest. We have Andrew Palmer here from pagebuildercloud.com, and elegantmarketplace.com. Andrew, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Andrew: Yeah. Hi Jonathan, it is nice to be on your podcast. I’ve listened to a few of them as well. They’re pretty good, I can’t believe it’s 400 plus. But there’s Andrew Palmer from Elegant Marketplace, pagebuildercloud.com and alliancemanager.com. Basically all page builders focused. And I spend my day either managing that our Facebook group and my own digital marketing company, which is somebodyeuro.uk. And that’s me.
Jonathon: That’s great. My normal cohost the good looking one, the charming one is off in Mexico with Chris. He will be back next week. Before we go into the main part of the interview and we’re going to be discussing page builders, the world of Divi. We’ve got some great subjects. I want to quickly mention my major sponsor, which is Kinsta hosting. And what is Kinsta hosting? I can’t believe you don’t know listeners and viewers. Basically they’re the best WordPress hosting provider on the market place at the present moment in my opinion. We’ve been hosting the WP tonic website on Kinsta for almost two years now. Fantastic service, hardly a problem to be seen and they are super speedy. If you’re a power user, WooCommerce, got a membership site learning management system you’re going to need great hosting.
And that’s what you get from Kinsta. If you are a developer basically if you’re looking for all the bells and whistles, PHP, 7.3 staging site one, one click back up. They’ve got a lot. So if that sounds interesting, go over to kinsta.com have a look at their plans. Buy one of them. And also tell them that you heard about them on the WP tonic show. So we’re going off. So Andrew can you give us a quick outline how you got into the world of WordPress?
Andrew: Well, I was a Joomla boy. In fact, I was well that’s all right. I was in Serbia WordPress camp in Serbia. Yeah, well Berlin, one of the two. And the Joomla guy actually did a presentation so that say thank this Joomla too much in this year. And it’s Joomla three now that I haven’t used it since to be honest. But I was put on to WordPress by very good friend of mine called Mark Copeman who started a brilliant company called customer thermometer. And he’s since sold that and that was he basically developed a one click survey form. You know, we use a smiley face and lots of people can do stuff and I always knew about WordPress. And Sean Barton who is my partner in pagebuildercloud.com. He basically build page builder cloud and layouts cloud and lay outs manager.
You’d been a build the interface so that people can save pages to their cloud. He was working with Mark and I just didn’t understand WordPress. I mean, I couldn’t get it. It took me a while and bless Mark coven because he put up with these, these angry phone calls saying, you know, how do I even associate at the home page or how do I do this or whatever. Cause Joomla to me was basically really simple and really easy, a great blogging platform and really good for SEO in those days. But I actually started off coding my own website. You know, I, I went to night school, did one night a week, it’s a, it was at my local college while I was a printer. I was working in printing or a sales rep for a printing company, my own company. And you know, I thought the web was the way forward and that was in, you know, way back 1998.
So, you know a good while ago, Jonathan, to be honest. And, you know, I just, I just felt like I really thought the web was, was where it’s at. And like I’ve only been into WordPress six years, maybe five years, you know, not long. And I love it. You know, I think WordPress is obviously the Go to CMS. I don’t like it for e-commerce. I use other platforms for e-commerce. But I love it for, you know, functional websites and even enterprise websites. Because you can do anything on it. You know, you can build like you guys do, you can bet build, you know, learning management systems and have them really, you know, drill down is a complex stages or complex layers of membership clubs you know, forums, all that kind of thing. And WordPress is, you know, P I think people think too much of WordPress actually because it’s just a, it’s just a framework for whatever you want to build on top of that.
You know, with your 50,000 plus plugins in repositories, you know, we’ve got, I think 300 plugins for Divi on, on elegant marketplace, that sort of thing. If you don’t know how to code stuff, you just go out and look for plugging on code Canyon or Involta or any of those other marketplaces for plugins. You can pretty much do anything with WordPress that you, you want to do even make it into an app. You know, it’s a fantastic platform. It’s changing as well, you know, let’s be honest. It progressing into being more enterprise friendly I think. Anyway, so that’s how I got into it.
A lovely chap called Mark Outman, who’s a phenomenally successful chap. You know, he’s got this brilliant business that he sold and he’s got another business that’s now of helping people, help other people being, you know, how to really be a, a great support person. I’ve got his book somewhere, but it’s just, I’ve gotten a guy called Mark Copeman to thank for WordPress.
Jonathon: So that’s great. So what, you know, with Mark what made you develop or get the idea of page builder clouds and what does it precisely do Andrew?
Andrew: Well page build a cloud came from actually an idea by another person in the Divi community. It was a lady called Michelle Noonan who’s got Divisuit.com and I like to name drop people, you know, because they without people in this world and I’m sure you, you have found this, there’s people that lift you up and they push you forward and they support you in so many different ways. And Michelle was one of those that that helps people out in the Divi community, you know and again and Melissa Love another lady and more coaching all these people that are, you know, I just like to name drop them really. But I developed Divi cloud which was a page saving situation to the cloud for DB just for Divi. And Michelle and I were chatting one day and she said, you know, I really do love Divi cloud but I don’t just use Divi.
I’ll use other page builders as well. What I’d really like to do is save just my page is I don’t need, you know, the layouts or anything cause layouts, cloud supplies, 20 hours a month to, you know, if you’re an agency member for Divi, I just want to be able to save to the cloud. So I built this thing called my cloud for Devi and then we made it for elements, which are Laos, manager.com. And then we thought, you know what, like why we can’t do it for all the other page builders out there. So I got together with Sean and said, how difficult would it be to make a page builder cloud basically. So we want Beaver builder, Divi, Elementor breezy, WPP bakery, poodle press, you know, James comes from the UK. So it’s great to support our UK developer as well.
Site origin, one and a half million registered users, you know, you know, so there’s those, there’s loads of Divi custom fields, all the forms. And then, you know, the popular forms, Ninja, caldera, gravity forms, you know, you can save all those pages to the count. So once you’ve built something, the whole concept behind it really is you’ve built a beautiful page. Let’s get this right. Design for web is really hard. I don’t care what anybody says. And people say, oh, anyone can build a website. Yeah, anyone can build a website, but not everybody can design a website. It’s really important to separate out that, that that skill set of UX and UI user experience and user interfacing and all the kinds of stuff that goes into web design. And I’m not a web designer. I completely always have said, I’m not a web designer.
I build websites. So when I build a page or site that is I think outstanding. I want to be able to replicate that somehow or I may need to replicate it. And this is very actually, if you’re into learning management, then you can save your page is the cat. If you built you’re learning management system in, say for instance, lifter, which is very friendly. And I think, I think they’ve got an elementary interface as well. And I think it was with Beaver builder. You can save those pages to your cloud so that you don’t have to rebuild them. So it really speeds up your development process. And that’s the whole point about page build a cloud and all the cloud products that we’ve got for these page builders is to speed up your development, make sure that you can maintain a profitable workflow, really for very little costs.
And that’s the key is that, let’s face it, as website builders, we hate spending money. We absolutely know, it’s just once you add up all these little things, these lifetime deals, that you’ve got all these monthly subscriptions that you’ve got your hosting, everything. These peppercorns payments that you’ve got add up. And that’s why people like to buy cheap hosting because although it’s a misnomer, you shouldn’t really buy cheap hosting. You should go with kin style. I’ve had some great things with kid stuff and I’ve certainly, I’m certainly considering moving one of my properties to kids to just to, just to see, because people say, Oh, you get 50% speed improvement and things like that. And I’m talking to [inaudible] at the moment. So my basic premise in life is to save people time. So when I was in printing, I’ve got an example today, some guy said to me all, I need 5,000 postcards. Why tomorrow 12, 12 noon today I’ve gone, oh, okay. So he’s getting, they’ve been dispatched already. He’s getting them at 12 noon tomorrow because I know how to save time on that, you know, and I know how to save time on web development and that’s the whole premise of page builder, Calgary safe zone, save time, make money.
Jonathon: So with page builder cloud. Does it offer functionality for the agency as well? So basically can you save whole Elementor websites and then push them back with specific pages. What I mean is obviously with Elementor you got individual site that you built out. You can save templates, but can you then help those templates available to another group of websites.
Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s the whole point is that, so you save a template and then you push it to the cloud and then you install page builder, cloud plugin on any other WordPress website that you’ve got Elementor on or any other page builder. And it comes up with whatever page builder is activated. It will only show you those layouts. So it stops you from getting confused. It doesn’t just show you all of the layers that you’ve saved. If you’re a multi-page builder user like me. I use Divi Elementor I actually use site origin on the couple of sites, WP bakery on a couple of sites. So you know, I need to know where those things are, but if I’ve only got Elementor active, it will only show me those Elementor layouts. And any, obviously if I’ve got some Divi custom fields or any of the forms that I’ve mentioned, if those plugins are active, it will show me what I’ve got from there as well. And I then just import those into a page.
Jonathon: Great it sounds fantastic. And how long have you been running the company? The site?
Andrew: Well, I think its two and a half months, maybe three months. It’s not long. We had a really soft launch. We launched it with the help of Nathan and I’ve lost his son. I read Nathan Wrigley who does another podcast. And unfortunately the week we did the podcast with the discount code for the end of the month. And then he announced the discount code at the beginning of the month. So I kind of just went, oh really? But I’ll gain back for that one day. So that kind of wraps that bit of marketing up a bit. But apart from that, we haven’t really marketed it and I’m starting to market it now, starting to do some Divi advertising. Part of the reason of that is also I went on holiday. I’ve just come back from 10 days in Albania.
Jonathon: I can tell you are pretty relaxed Andrew.
Andrew: I’m pretty chilled anyway, to be honest. You know, sometimes I get angry, but you know, I’m a pretty chill guy these days. We’ve been through the mill, you know, WordPress web design, running a marketplace, running a big group, you know, it can get you sometimes. But these days, you know, I’m 60 next year, so I’m not really worried about too many these days except for staying alive.
Jonathon: Staying alive is much more preferable than the alternative, that’s for sure. So what are your hopes for page builder? Obviously I agree with you because I think you’ve really got a very interesting product at just the right moment and Auckland to stay in. Why you want to do a soft launch? Because I think with this type of product, you could get a high demand very quickly which is great in some ways. But it has its problems as well when you’re a small company. But what are your hopes for the products?
Andrew: Well I’m hoping that at end it’s obviously aimed at developers or designers of websites, you know, and the variety of page builders. I mean the one page builder I didn’t actually name drop in the page builder cloud description was Gutenberg. And it’s a very important development that WordPress have done. And I was lucky enough to have, I think it was just over 10 minutes, maybe approaching 15 minutes chat with them one-on-one with Matt Mullenweg in Berlin. And I mentioned page on the cloud and I said, this is what we’re doing with it. It’s gotten bug friendly. And what we’re also doing is we’re looking at the potential of, there’s no secret here. You know, everybody I’ve talked to who knows about this, we were looking at the potential of converting any page builder to Gothenburg, which is, you know, pretty big deal.
And we’ve managed, we’ve got some good tests that we’ve done there, but there’s some mapping issues and if you’ve got you know, especially if you’re using third party add on`s as plugins in any of these pages that you’re building, you might have some mapping issues from say a slider or from a, an element of plugin, you know, add on or something that goes into Gutenberg. So we were finding ways to say, this is not compatible with this, but here’s the content. So, you know, to be able to, and, and to be honest, his eyes lit up when I said that because obviously he’s the, the evangelist and the, you know, I want Gutenberg to be the page builder of choice. So only being able to convert any page builder content that Gothenburg is where we’re going. So there you go.
And if anyone wants to help us with that, then we’re, we’re absolutely up for it. And you know James from poodle press has said that he’s going to help us with that, but he’s busy with his bug blocks and things like that. So doing, he’s doing some wonderful stuff with weed commerce. So that’s the way that page builder cloud’s going. Not to take away the ability of page builders but awesome, but to make them actually more useful so you can design something really quickly and really easily in your page builder that you know and then you can convert that into a Gutenberg page. How cool is that
Jonathon: We are going to go for our break folks. When we come back we were going to be talking about the world of Divi, which I know very little about. But Andrew knows a tremendous amount. So we will be back in a free moments folks.
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Jonathon: We’re coming back. Andrew is a fascinating character to say he’s got a lot of fingers. There’s a lot of parts is an understatement. No wonder he needed a holiday. So let’s go to the world at Divi. And I got to be honest Andrew. I really have not been involved in the world of Divi for a long time. I asked the CEO and founder to come on the podcast. Regrettably, he turned down the invite. And I couldn`t find anybody else from Divi that would come on the show. They keep a reasonably low profile. They do go to the occasional WordPress camp. But tell us about, for you, what, you know, how did you get into the world of Divi? And you and your partners seem to have a big presence in the world.
Andrew: Well, I’m going to Divi more or less at the same time as I got into WordPress. So about a year afterwards, I think, you know, when there were 80 odd themes that elegant themes were producing. So I got into A-League elegant themes before Divi and they always had a page builder that there was a little page builder in all of elegant themes, themes and that was obviously a, a need for page builders. I was using site origin. I was building my own CMS as well, a little PHB based CMS with a Wiz wig editors. And I was just getting fed up. And then I think maybe four years just over four years ago, maybe nearly five years ago, Divi one came out and it was revolutionary really was, it was just, to me it was revolutionary. I hadn’t heard of Beaver Builder. I don’t even know where it was four years ago.
Elementor certainly wasn’t around. I think Elementor is only three years old. And I just loved it. I loved the way it works in the blocks that it works and the modules and what you could do. And then Divi 2.7 came out. And that was phenomenal. And then a few of us got together at the behest of a guy called Geno Quiroz whose phenomenal website developer in Monterey in America, wherever that is, monthly base San Francisco, kind of that area, whatever way the coast that is. And he asked about half a dozen of us to get involved in building a marketplace for Divi. So, and I got, and he kind of asked me to get involved and then I got involved and whatever happened over the law over the last few years at community, people dropped out. He got ill, he had to drop out.
He then built his own marketplace, which he’s now melt doing because elegant themes are going to do their marketplace as well. Evidently. but the guys are elegant themes and other partners, you know, dropped off the wayside as well until she met my business partner, Eileen Lonergan passed away in October last year. So that had its issues around certain things and obviously emotionally as well. That was pretty difficult to handle. So we’ve had a few issues with elegant marketplace, but we’re, we’re well over those now. And to get back into Divi, it is, in my view, one of the easiest ways to build a website. There’s lot of people, there’s 600,000 members of elegant themes. There’s millions of websites out there that are using Devi because that lifetime deal is madness as far as I’m concerned. We’ve got a couple of likes.
Jonathon: Well that is one way of putting it. Obviously these life time deals in some ways now. I’ve been involved in the WordPress communities since 2008-2009. Just around version free, I go into the WordPress as a developer consultant. I don’t do much coding now apart from the WP tonic site. I have people who are much better than me and work for me. According to their, I’m just trying to get back on track. Actually just a small line of fall. But these lifetime deals are slightly controversial because people think, you know, in the end the company can’t keep to the terms and conditions really. Because it is going to make them slightly unprofitable. What were your feelings about these life times?
Andrew: Well, I don’t agree with that philosophy. I mean, I don’t like lifetime deals. Per say we’ve got a lifetime deal on page, be able to cloud, you know, 299 bucks and you can have a lifetime, you know, as long as we’re alive and as long as the product’s alive, then you get lifetime deal. And I think where people are misled slightly with a lifetime deal is that it is for the life of the product. It’s not for the rest of your life. You know, it’s for the life of the product. And sometimes products fail. I’m not saying the page builder clown is going to fail. It’s not a costly product for us to, to produce rather than in time. To be honest, you know, we’ve got some servers to, we we’re moving actually moving servers this week next week now cause it’s Thursday, Tuesday element to do it this week.
And then the time by moving the server to next week. And I’ve got to decide between hosts, I’m just evaluating that now. But a lifetime deal, like elegant themes offers is tied in with a, with a deal that they offer for developer or origin annual deals. So they charge 90 bucks a year or $250 for a lifetime deal. And they used to have one more, which was a an elegant seems lie or something, which you didn’t get the plugins and I think that was 50 bucks a year. And also some people with subscriptions, they sometimes forget that they’ve got subscriptions unit, you know, I know that I do. And I suddenly, like today I’ve canceled one subscription cause I thought, Oh, I canceled, I thought I’d cancel that $30 a month, but I hadn’t. But lifetime deals for people like elegant themes who’ve been around for years.
It is a great idea for them because they, you know, it’s October now, there’ll be black Friday deals that, that lifetime deal with. We’ll go down to probably two 20 or 200 bucks or something like that. And it’s, it’s a great deal to have because they’ve got so many customers, you know, they, they’ve gotten millions of dollars of income. And they’ve grown a lot. You know, they went from, I think Nick was saying they’d gone from 10 people in the last four years to a hundred people and they’ve got lots of support staff to pay of course. But there are a certain amount, I think a lifetime deal should be aligned with a good annual deal, you know, so that you’ve got the annual payments will you know, keep bread and butter, you know, keep your door open and the lifetime deal is for people that want to support you.
And want to almost like a go fund me campaign or something. We’ve just done a lifetime deal with WP feedback on and marketplace. I think it was just under $600 for lifetime deal for WP feedback, which is a great feedback plugin to fund the next stage. And so I think that lifetime deal should only be done for that purpose so that you’ve got interest from the community and say, yeah, can I want guys, I’m gonna, I’m gonna bet 600 bucks on you, or $500 or $250 because I know that you need to F need a big lump of money now to fund the project going forward with page Buhler cloud. We’re very lucky in the fact that we’re already a substantial business anyway. Because of elegant marketplace and layout cloud and whatever. So we’ve got the funds to do a few giveaways if we want to with elegant themes.
And especially now that they’ve got the Divi theme users group, which is a peer to peer support group. That kind of lessens a bit of the support problem. Yes. They’ve got moderators on there that are working for free. I think they’ve got one, maybe two paid moderators on there. But if you can get as peer to peer support group done on Facebook or something, which is zero cost, then lifetime deals are a good deal but that, but if it’s a new company and all they’re offering is a lifetime deal when they don’t have another annual, you can’t test them out for an annual first, then yeah, I think you need to, you need to watch it if it’s just a lifetime deal. Especially on a new one. So that’s the only reason that I don’t really like them is there’s also too many out there for the moment. There’s a few out there which are saying, you know, have a lifetime deal on this and then all of a sudden there’s a an add on and you’ve got to pay for that. Adam is actually crazy, you know, if you’re going to buy a lifetime deal, then everything to do with that products should be included in that. You should be grandfathered in on that lifetime deal.
Jonathon: Right. So I’m going to give you this question. And obviously with Studio Press, they sold to WP engine. And they sold over a year ago, about 18 months ago. So now it’s been terribly and I’m one of the founders. His contract is up. It’s in the Tavern. He’s, he’s leaving now. So what do you think of the future Divi? Do you think Divi is going to be bought out by a hosting provider?
Andrew: I’d be very surprised if Divi was, was bought up by a hosting provider. I don’t think. Now let’s just be honest. Be open here. Really open. Every company is for sale. My companies, my company’s for sale, you know every single aspect of mine for Sally. If you only want a bit of it, you make me an offer. If you want that, make me an offer. You know, and if you’re in business, you actually build a business to sell it because otherwise, why are you in business? I don’t build businesses to make myself have a job. I build businesses to feed my family and have a good time, frankly.
You know, so that’s, and I’m happy to work 16 hours a day for the last four years and try and try and achieve that. But it would surprise me that if Divi was for sale or even if it had investors because of the, if you do a quick sum of how many people have bought Divi, they got plenty.
They don’t need anybody else to finance them. They don’t need anybody else to help them host with Hostgator. They’ve got, you know, phenomenal hosting with them. They must take up loads of their bandwidth on me. I think they’re getting something like on the three and a half million visits a month. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s a pretty substantial website they’ve, they’ve had to put together. And there’s also some technical debt that they’ve got, like every website, you know, elegant marketplace has got technical debt from when we started because of certain things that we did with woo commerce. We still got some technical debt from that. We now use easy digital downloads, but you know, we’ll, we go onto another payment or another licensing situation because easy digital downloads doesn’t actually fit everything that we want to do. You know, there’s a situation with updating that we fixed and then we do an update and then it’s not fixed, you know, so we, we, we’ve got some technical debt there, so it would surprise me if elegant themes sold out per se.
Jonathon: Well I don’t think, I think on their side, like you say, if in true I totally agree with you Andrew. Every company in reality is up for sale in a way. I’m not surmising or suggesting that eloquent themes are out there actively looking for suitors and buyers, I think it’s the alternative. I think hosting in some ways I’m a great fan of Kinsta, but they are very open. They use Google cloud as their backbone. And what you get with Kinsta is a great UX interface with great support, you know, really top class support. That’s what you’re getting, but in some ways hosting is getting a bit collectivized in a way. So I see the need on the other side that the hosting company of a certain size would approach eloquent themes to a group of clients similar to what WP engine did by buying Studio Press.
Andrew: Well, yeah, but Studio Press is a different animal, you know, cause you’ve got the generate press on that. And now you’ve got to be, if you were a studio press affiliate, you’ve got to now, you know, got an email from WP engine today saying I’ve got a, the studio press saying I’ve got to chain my affiliates to WP engine and all that kind of stuff. But WP engine and flywheel, they use Google cloud and they use their own systems and stuff and they’ve merged together. You’ve got go daddy that have bought Harp internet in the UK. And the European company that used to own those. So there’s a lot of consolidation going on in the web world and I’m Gatsby just got $15 million invested in them. The headless CMS and Gatsby with Shopify. Shopify is now worth more than eBay on the stock exchange, you know, so there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of money to be made, you know, and let`s not forget automatic who’ve just got $300 million and who’ve just bought
Jonathon: I thought it was fantastic news actually.
Andrew: Well it is great news because you’re building a company. There’s a better control in the season, isn’t there? That Word Press’s there. The lines are getting great. Who’s WordPress.com, who’s wordpress.org and who’s the patriarch in charge of it all? And we’ve got Matt, really nice guy. You know, 35, 36 years old. Developed WordPress with a guy called Mike Little from the UK as well. So Mike Little is the cofounder of WordPress. And he still lives in the UK. Works in WordPress is still, you know, Matt’s got automatic. He’s had he’s got audrey.com as well, which is his investment arm. And if you look at Audrey and see what he’s investing in. The app on your phones or keep it, keep yourself calm basically is great for web developers. Web developers need to keep calm, you know, you know those as well as I do. So there is lots of going on, you know, lifter LMS, they’ve grown beyond anything that I’ve experienced in the last two, three years. You know, Christopher.
There’s growth going on. The entire marketplace is Divi cake. You’ve got Aspen Grove studios, you’ve got Divi space. Divi Space and Aspen came together. They made themselves bigger and better by merging. So there’s a lot going on. And you can’t ignore that. And as I say, if I get, and I have been approached and I do get approached a lot to sell certain things of my assets. And I have sensible conversations with people and if they walk away, they walk away. If they don’t, they don’t. You know, you’ve got to imagine. And I also have conversations with people as well. You know, there’s one particular guy that I would absolutely love to be part of his business. So we are having conversations about that because it’s a very dynamic industry. This world of web really. It’s not just about WordPress particularly, or it’s certainly not about Divi or Beaver builder.
Jonathon: Andrew sorry to interrupt you, but we’re gonna have to cut it now for the podcast part of the show. We are going to continue the discussion which should be able to see on the complete interview on the WP tonic YouTube channel. In the bonus section I’m going to be asking about why Andrew doesn’t feel that WordPress and WooCommerce is the best solution for ecommerce. And we’ll be also continuing that discussion about the welded Divi. I’ve showed that I know very little about. So Andrew, what is the best way to find out more about you and what your companies are up to?
Andrew: Well we have obviously a few properties. But elegantmarketplace.com is my main activity in the vendor marketplace way. Pagebuildercloud.com. You can also find me on page builder. Facebook and just search for page builder users. You’ll find our little Facebook group there that I think we’ve got a couple of thousand members. I think you may even made it a couple of thousand when you joined earlier. So just search Andrew Palmer elegant marketplace and you’ll find me. And you’ll see where I’m at. And obviously you can go to somebody.UK as well, so I’m around.
Jonathon: So anyhow if you want to support the show folks, go to Apple and give us a review. It really does help the show. It really helps us get great guests like Andrew on the show. Discussing great things about WordPress learning management systems. And how to be a more successful entrepreneur on the internet around e-learning. We’ll be back next week with my great cohost Adrian. We will be back soon. See you later folks. Bye.
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