Building an AEO Strategy From Scratch That Works in 2026
Build a winning AEO strategy from scratch in 2026. A step-by-step guide to boost visibility in AI search results and stay ahead of competitors.
With Special Guest Kaleigh Moore – B2B Creator + AI visibility advisor
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kaleighmoore
@kaleighf
AI search is rewriting the rules of content marketing — and this week we’re talking to someone who’s been in the trenches figuring out exactly how. Kaleigh Moore is a human-led AEO (Answer Engine Optimization) strategist who works with B2B SaaS companies to help their content get cited by ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude, and Google’s AI Overviews, not just ranked on page one.
Kaleigh recently unveiled her “Source Signal Stack” framework for earning LLM citations, and has been tracking the explosion of dedicated AEO and GEO job postings at companies like Amazon, HubSpot, and Victoria’s Secret. On this episode, we dig into what’s actually changing in how content gets discovered, why editorial judgment still matters in an AI-assisted workflow, and what WordPress site owners, bloggers, and content creators need to do right now to stay visible as search shifts from links to answers.
#1 – Kaleigh, you recently unveiled what you called the “Source Signal Stack.” Can you break it down?
Kaleigh, you recently unveiled the “Source Signal Stack” as a new AEO framework for earning LLM citations. Can you break down what that framework looks like in practice for our WordPress and content-creator audience?
#2 – You recently researched the AI job market. What were your key conclusions?
Kaleigh, you recently tracked over 50 dedicated AEO/GEO job openings across companies like Amazon, HubSpot, and Victoria’s Secret. What does that hiring surge tell smaller WordPress-based businesses and solo creators about how seriously they should be taking AI search visibility right now?
#3 – What are some of the biggest structural mistakes you see site owners making?
In your piece on what makes content “citation-worthy” to AI, you talk about structuring content for retrieval by tools like ChatGPT and Perplexity. What’s the biggest structural mistake you see bloggers and WordPress site owners making that keeps them from getting cited?
#4 – What are some of the key things people need to understand when building an AEO strategy from scratch?
You outlined “auditing your current AI visibility” as move one in building an AEO strategy — for someone starting completely from zero, what should that first audit actually involve, and what tools would you point them to?
#5 – What are your thoughts on editorial judgment vs. AI-assisted scaling?
Kaleigh, you have written a lot about content volume going up while engagement goes down, and the risk of writers “prompting without a strategic brief” — how do you help teams keep human editorial judgment in the loop while still using AI to scale production?
#6- Kaleigh, if you could go back to the beginning of your career journey, what advice would you give yourself?
Kaleigh Moore Bio
Kaleigh Moore is a B2B SaaS content strategist and AEO/GEO consultant who helps companies structure and produce content that AI search engines and answer engines surface and cite. She writes Context Window, a weekly newsletter on AI search and content strategy for 8,600+ B2B marketers, and created the AI Search Jobs Board, which tracks the fast-growing market for AEO talent. Her writing and reporting have appeared in Forbes, ADWEEK, and Vogue Business, and she previously co-hosted the Freelance Writing Coach Podcast for ten seasons. Kaleigh’s work centers on a simple idea: as AI reshapes how content is found, human editorial judgment — not just prompting — is what makes content worth citing.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kaleighmoore
@kaleighf
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The Show’s Main Transcript
[00:00:22.140] – Jonathan Denwood
Welcome back, folks, to the WP-Tonic show. This is episode 1027. I know I say this reasonably regularly, but I’ve been really looking forward to this interview. We’ve got the fantastic Katie Maul with us. She’s a leading B2B creator and AI visibility advisor. She’s got a big following on X, LinkedIn, and other social media platforms, and I follow her on X as well. You go, you might. You first came on my radar when you went on the Edward Stern Show a few weeks ago, and I know Edward, and I know a friend of his, David, um, and I just thought you did a really great job, and I thought I would ask you to come on our show. And you were— and I really appreciate you agreeing to do it. Yeah, no problem. And I’ve been really looking forward to this discussion. Would you like to give the audience a quick intro, maybe a 15, 20-second intro about yourself, and we’ll delve into your background a bit more in the main part of the show.
[00:01:30.470] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, so I am a full-time B2B creator right now and also an AEO strategist. So helping brands figure out how to get cited in tools like ChatGPT, Claude, and Google AI Overviews. This is a new role for me. It’s a pivot from the content and SEO world, but I feel like this is also the next evolution of where all of that is going. So that is the very condensed version.
[00:01:51.640] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. And I’ve got my ever-patient and helpful co-host, Kurt. Kurt, would you like to introduce yourself to the new listeners and viewers?
[00:02:00.150] – Kurt von Ahnen
Hey folks. Yeah, Kurt von Ahnen. I own an agency called Mañana No Más, and we also work with the great team over at WP-Tonic.
[00:02:07.850] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. Before we go into the main meat and potatoes of the show, I’ve got a couple of messages from our leading sponsors. We will be back in a few moments, folks.
[00:02:18.700] – Speaker 4
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[00:03:37.170] – Jonathan Denwood
We’re coming back, folks. Want to point out we’ve got some great special offers from the major sponsors, plus a curated list of the best technology for a web— a small agency owner, power user, or freelancer. You can get all these free goodies and special offers from our major sponsors at wp-tonic.com/deals. wp-tonic.com/deals. What more could you ask for, my beloved audience? Probably a lot more, but that’s all you’re gonna get on that page, unfortunately. I’ve made a career of disappointing. Uh, there we go. Uh, so let’s go straight into it. So, Kate, um, you recently unveiled what you called the Source Signal Stack. Maybe you can give us an insight into what that was about, what it is.
[00:04:31.730] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, so I spent the last 7 years as a journalist. I wrote for Forbes magazine for a long time, also a few other publications But I took that journalism and editorial background and kind of copy-pasted it over to what I’m seeing happen within visibility for all these AI tools. And so the source signal stack is a methodology and kind of a visual framework that helps people understand the further a source, or whether it’s a human expert or a piece of content, the further that a source is from brand control, the more weight that an LLM is going to give it. So it’s going to help boost rankings, it’s going to help boost boost visibility within all these different answer engines because I like to think of it as a press release. So if a brand puts out a press release saying, hey, we’re great, we just did this fundraise, we’re magical and wonderful and we are amazing, it’s not super trustworthy because it’s coming from the brand itself. However, if a third-party expert, a creator, a journalist, somebody with a YouTube show says that same thing and kind of cross-verifies that piece of information, it feels more trustworthy because that is further from brand control.
[00:05:39.800] – Kaleigh Moore
So it is a little bit of an axis to show that the further that a source moves from this originated from the brand, this message is from the brand, and it’s been verified and kind of third-party validated, that’s going to do more work for you in the puzzle of AI visibility work. So that’s the short version.
[00:05:59.080] – Jonathan Denwood
I think that you did a fantastic job there, and I think it is so important. It’s one of the key things. Well, it is and it isn’t, isn’t it? Because, you know, um, let’s call it traditional SEO, shall we call it that? Uh, um, um, you know, Google’s— the 2 founders of Google, you know, their great achievement was this, you know, was external links and using external links as a factor of judging, of judgment of the quality of a bit of content on the internet and large learning models. They’re just looking, they’re not looking at links so much, but they’re looking at what other people are saying. So the link was a kind of way of that system of making a judge— judgment call of the quality of another piece of content, wasn’t it?
[00:06:55.390] – Kaleigh Moore
Mm-hmm.
[00:06:55.880] – Jonathan Denwood
Do you agree with that?
[00:06:57.320] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I think so. I think it is. Again, you think about earned media, you think about a brand getting covered in a publication, you think about somebody talking about a brand on YouTube or on a podcast, on these surfaces essentially that are not the company website or the company LinkedIn page. And it just feels more trustworthy because it’s not coming from the brand itself. So LLMs are built to think the same way pretty much that humans think. They both use systems thinking. I spent the last year at Harvard studying this and how the mechanics actual AI systems generate answers, it’s still a black box. We don’t know for sure how the different engines make the decisions they make on what answers to spit out. But if you understand the mechanics a little bit more, all of this starts to make more sense because like I said, systems thinking, it’s the same way that humans think too and kind of cross-reference and verify and look for validation from a place like Reddit, for example, before they make a purchase. It’s doing the same thing.
[00:07:55.960] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, we’re probably going to disagree, have to agree to disagree there, because I don’t think large learning models think. But you could come back to me.
[00:08:04.720] – Speaker 5
Of course.
[00:08:05.410] – Jonathan Denwood
You could come back to me and say, no, it passes the Good Churning test. And you could say to me, it doesn’t really matter, which is, I would accept that. I wouldn’t totally agree with it. But I think we can discuss that later on in the show. Because I’m notorious for going off topic. That’s why, that’s why, that’s why we give you extensive notes, because it keeps— not to help you, but to keep me on topic. All right, um, over to you, Kurt.
[00:08:36.700] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I’m just, I’m, I’m listening to Kaylee make the, the answer there, and then I’m thinking about— I’m gonna pull a Jonathan right now. Um, I’m thinking about a headline that came through my feed this week, and it said, you know, the influencer economy is dead, you know, but like everyone throws these, uh, you know, hyperbole-type headlines out there.
[00:08:55.740] – Jonathan Denwood
WordPress is dead. Everything’s dead. We’re gonna— the machines are gonna destroy us in 180 days. Everything’s dead, isn’t it?
[00:09:05.740] – Kurt von Ahnen
Yeah, email marketing is dead. But as I was listening to you formulate your answer about the further away the message is, the stronger the implication is that the brand is good, like, I’m hearing all that and then I’m going, Since the influencer economy has kind of taken a little bit of a dip, do you think that’s because, like, does AI sense or know or see that it’s like a paid recommendation versus like being mentioned on a show?
[00:09:33.320] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I think that is the big question, and I’m so glad you asked it because this is what I’ve been wanting to talk about. I do think that very soon brands will start to figure out, and the AI tools, their methodology for making decisions, however that happens again, we still don’t know. I do think they’re going to get smarter at detecting paid partnerships, but right now it’s still the wild, wild west, and I think brands know that, and that’s why they are leaning into hiring creators to do campaigns. They are getting very strategic about leveraging influencers for— we need these people of influence with audience and with presence within these engines to have our brand name in their mouth. And so I think you’re on to something very much there. I have been exploring this a lot because I do think there is a disclosure issue with all of that. Of course, you know, for the consumer, how do you know what’s real and what’s been a paid thing unless there’s a very explicit, we have been paid to say this, which not everybody does. I’m very curious to see how this all shakes out.
[00:10:32.150] – Kaleigh Moore
And it is everything that I am trying to stay on top of right now. There’s new data all the time. Everything is changing so fast. But that is the next big question. And it’s a good one to ask.
[00:10:42.160] – Kurt von Ahnen
I live in a small town and a restaurant came out a few months ago and they had an influencer go to their restaurant and do the whole like, what a surprise, I found this awesome restaurant. There’s also a gossip channel in our Facebook locally and someone said, that’s an influencer, that’s not a real customer, blah, blah, blah. And 6 weeks later, that restaurant was folded up and gone.
[00:11:05.540] – Speaker 5
Wow.
[00:11:06.440] – Kurt von Ahnen
Like, it was like it I thought it was actually pretty mean, but it was like, it was like, wow, like, like someone made their life dream happen and, and, you know, social media shut it down because they were like, this ain’t legit, right? They had some kind of influencer come in and say a bunch of stuff that’s not true about the place. And then a couple people went in and the service wasn’t as good as the influencer said, and they said it doesn’t pass the litmus test and nobody went back there again.
[00:11:30.300] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, that’s a good point to raise. And I think that’s why I think it’s more strategic for companies to leverage their internal employees who aren’t paid influencers. They know what the customers talk about. They know the product or the service very well. They can speak from their own expertise being inside of the company. They’re still once removed because they’re not brand-controlled assets. They have their own LinkedIn pages and social, social media channels. But I think companies should be leveraging their employees as creators or as experts because there’s a level of authenticity there that you can’t ever get from a creator or a purchased influencer deal. What do you guys think about that?
[00:12:09.570] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I used to be the training manager of Ducati, and I still post positive things about Ducati. Like, I love it.
[00:12:14.620] – Kaleigh Moore
That’s what I’m saying. If you love it, it’s great. Yeah.
[00:12:17.580] – Speaker 5
Yeah.
[00:12:18.060] – Kurt von Ahnen
Jonathan, I’m sorry, I’m— I’ve manipulated—
[00:12:19.920] – Jonathan Denwood
go ahead. No, I think it depends. You know, there’s some people in the WordPress space, um, that do videos, but they make it quite clear it’s a sponsored, um, review. I think we all got a little bit, and it still is on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram is when it’s an affiliate, somebody saying something about a product and they’re gonna get a, a very large affiliate commission and there’s the link in there. But I think a lot of people know it’s affiliate, but there’s also a lot of people that don’t, isn’t there? So. Excellent. That’s always been a very gray area, isn’t it? Shall I move on to the next question? You recently did some research in the AI job market. What were your conclusions?
[00:13:18.210] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I think we’re going to see a head of AEO role open up within the next 12 to 18 months, and some companies are already starting to hire for this. I have a job board, aisearchjobs.co, where I’m kind of tracking all of this. It’s Something that I would love to turn into a paid asset, but really for me it’s more a research project to track and monitor how this is evolving over time. So what do the job descriptions look like? What are we calling this? What’s the title? What department is it under? And I want to study this and see how different brands try to figure this out. But I think the thing I’m saying first and foremost is this is not a side project. This is not something— AEO is not something you can just throw at your marketing or SEO team and say, figure it out. It’s a full-time job. There’s monitoring, there is performance tracking, there’s so much education that you have to keep up with because it changes every single week. Here’s the new data, here’s the new trends we’re seeing. I think even 12 months ago, this was a very different conversation.
[00:14:16.310] – Kaleigh Moore
And I have done audits as an external third party for companies who are trying to figure out how do we show up in AI search results. And what I learned very quickly is you need somebody in-house, you need a full-time person to manage this because It’s hard to get your arms around. There are a lot of things that it involves. So I do think either within marketing or reporting to someone in the SEO or community teams, this is going to be a new job that we’re going to see pop up very, very soon.
[00:14:43.740] – Jonathan Denwood
What do you reckon, Kurt?
[00:14:46.270] – Kurt von Ahnen
I really, really struggle in this category, Kaylee. I’m just going to be really bluntly honest here. When I was first starting my digital agency, You know, I was self-educated and, and I was, I was desperate. I didn’t know the community existed for WordPress. So I was like looking for books, like, like I gotta find a textbook on how this works. And nothing existed that was modern or current, right? Everything had to be like learned experientially. Like you had to keys on a keyboard to figure things out and to fail immensely. Like, oh yeah, the book by John Maxwell, Failing Forward. I lived it. Like I just kept failing and learning, failing and learning, failing and learning.
[00:15:23.200] – Speaker 5
Mm-hmm.
[00:15:23.740] – Kurt von Ahnen
And I feel like this AI space is in this category because what you mentioned, right? It’s constantly changing, constantly evolving. And so I really struggle with how someone’s gonna demonstrate their value in the marketplace on something that’s not gradable, scorable, or something like that. Like, I feel like a bunch of drifters can just kind of slide into that space and go, I’m an AI expert. Look, I made a plugin. And some CEO’s gonna go, he makes his own software on AI. He’s a genius. And There’s no genius involved. Like, like the results won’t come.
[00:15:58.300] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I, I have to agree. I, I do think there’s so— all the analytics on all of this reporting is very predictive. It’s not concrete data. It’s not like SEO. It’s, it’s a very moving target kind of thing right now. And I just think so many CEOs and leadership people are hearing about AI and knowing that 1 in 3 searches now start, start with an AI tool and they’re saying, We need to be showing up and answers, figure it out, throw money at it, just get it done. And so people are scrambling now, and that’s why we’re seeing these jobs pop up. I don’t know how it’s going to shake out though. I cannot claim to know that at all.
[00:16:32.320] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, and part of the hard part, if I’m being more transparent, is it just lies to you. So I went into different AI tools, right? I tried ChatGPT, I tried Claude, I tried Perplexity. And I said, hey, I didn’t tell it who I was, right? I was like, hey, uh, I’m thinking about having a website done for my business startup here in Hutchinson, Kansas. Who would you recommend? And my agency wasn’t on the list. And then I told it like, hey, why didn’t you mention Mañana No Más? And it goes, oh, Mañana No Más is this great company, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like all that stuff, right?
[00:17:04.010] – Speaker 4
Yeah.
[00:17:04.340] – Kurt von Ahnen
And then, and then I go, but why didn’t you recommend it? And then it starts picking out things like, this was on your site, this was on their site. This is like, you recommended people from Topeka. That’s nowhere near Hutchinson. And, and I just don’t feel like even the AI gives you a straight answer. So if someone’s in that position, like, how do we get found on using AI tools? It’s like you’re constantly in this muck and debris of, of messiness that’s really hard to show a quantitative result for.
[00:17:35.660] – Kaleigh Moore
I agree. I agree. Okay.
[00:17:39.630] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, then I guess that’s all I have, Jonathan.
[00:17:41.000] – Kaleigh Moore
I, I didn’t know if Jonathan was gonna jump in. I mean, I could, I could talk endlessly about it. But I wanted to leave some space.
[00:17:47.050] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, sure. I think we live in interesting times, basically. There, you know, there’s a lot of money online, isn’t there? You know, OpenAI are going to go public sometime, or maybe not. Claude, I think they’re definitely going to attempt to go for it this year. You know, with a God knows what their variation is. You know, every time, every time, you know, you had that incident yesterday that an employee of theirs that’s only been there for 2 months leaves, he makes a post on X. I think it’s been read, it’d be read out, what, 100 million times, the post?
[00:18:35.500] – Kaleigh Moore
Yes.
[00:18:35.880] – Jonathan Denwood
Or some ridiculous figure. And he’s one of these He’s drunk the Kool-Aid, isn’t he? You know, he’s, he’s saying that, you know, and there’s been a pattern. You know, I’m not making any attempt in because obviously he’s left, but he was an employee. I think he really believes it. But we have seen a bit of a pattern here, haven’t we? that every time a new version comes out or there’s more money needed or more, that you get these figures coming out from the industry saying, you know, everybody’s going to lose their job, you know, it’s going to be the end of the world. And I think it’s to do with evaluation because unless—
[00:19:31.500] – Kaleigh Moore
Mm-hmm.
[00:19:32.610] – Jonathan Denwood
Everybody does lose their job or it dramatically changes. How, how can you support these variations? And I think this is the key. It’s only my opinion to this witch’s brew, basically this effort. And it seems to be intensifying, you know, like what we saw yesterday with this, this individual that posts. And he’s been at the company 2 months and he’s saying that There’s a 10% risk that the world will end in the next 5 years. It’s just, to me, it’s just bonkers stuff, you know.
[00:20:10.090] – Kaleigh Moore
But yeah. Yeah, it feels scary. It feels like there is just a lot of misinformation out there. Again, all these are black boxes too. All these tools, we don’t know how it makes the recommendations it makes. So I would be very suspicious of anyone who’s trying to tell you we have this figured out. And Kurt, like you said, that can say, oh, we know how to get you super AI visible. I, I think it’s a game of averages at this point. It’s about probability that you’ll be cited. And what do we, based on the reverse engineering that we’ve done, what do we know? So I do think that, like you said, there’s a lot of money being thrown around, around AI visibility and a lot of demand from executive leadership for, we want this, we know we should be thinking about it. It’s all anybody’s talking about right now. It might also kill us, apparently, as of yesterday. But again, I just, I think it feels like the early days. I started in content marketing 14 years ago, and it feels like the early days of social media. This feels like the next iteration of all that, where there’s a lot of, we still don’t know how this is all going to shake out.
[00:21:13.200] – Kaleigh Moore
We don’t know the long-term implications, but people are trying and scrambling really to, to try to hop on board and figure out how to do it.
[00:21:22.580] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, so let’s move on to the next question. Keep me on, keep me on, keep me structured. So, um, so what are some of the biggest structural mistakes you’ve seen business owners making in this new landscape? I think listening to your interview on the Edward Stern Show, I think the biggest surprise, because you’ve worked for a number of large publishing organizations, and I think— I don’t know if I can remember you said it during the interview, but I sensed it— that you were amazed how quickly things changed and how these organizations sacked most of their content, uh, content providers and their on-staff writers or their freelancers. It was like a whirlwind. And you’ve had to pivot yourself.
[00:22:18.010] – Speaker 5
Yeah.
[00:22:19.520] – Jonathan Denwood
And I think there was a video done yesterday by Neil Patel saying that— and my friend who’s been on the David Edwards Show the most, David Quaid, he doesn’t agree with me here. And he runs a very successful SEO agency. So who am I to argue with my friend? But Neil Patel brought out this, this video yesterday saying that they did a survey of 600 of his clients and they looked at pure AI content or content that had been heavily edited. I mean, heavily edited. They used AI, but it was heavily edited. And he said the heavily edited content did a lot better. than the pure. But there’s a lot of back and forth about this. So number one was, so would you agree that you were shocked about how things have changed? And how do you think business— how would you advise business owners in this climate to deal with this?
[00:23:32.910] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think I saw that yesterday too. And I think that underlines the point that Human writing is still incredibly valuable. So yes, AI is great and it can help springboard the writing process. It can help make the content production process more efficient. But everybody’s also getting very smart about, oh, this feels like AI writing, or there are giveaways in the language, the phrasing, the, the repetitions, the em dashes. You know, there are all these red flags now that people are already starting to pick up on. And I think that is also part of it.
[00:24:07.960] – Jonathan Denwood
So again, really, I’m sorry to interrupt, and I know I won’t, but we’re— aren’t we in a bit of a bubble? You know, you’re— you know, writing means a lot to you. It’s, you know, it’s your profession. But, you know, but before AI, there was a— you know, I’m not— I’m not saying the quality of your writing, but there was a lot of trash out there, wasn’t it?
[00:24:29.920] – Speaker 5
Yes.
[00:24:30.390] – Jonathan Denwood
You know, you get— you get what you pay for, and there was a lot of trash out there. And, um, Do you think the average person really knows, or is it people like us?
[00:24:42.440] – Kaleigh Moore
That’s a fair, that’s a fair point to raise. I do definitely think we’re very up close and personal with it, so we’re probably much more familiar. But I feel like the tests, those like the one you just referenced, the tests are a good indicator that quality does still matter. The quality of the writing and, and the quality of AI, at least Right now, whatever phase we’re in with all of this, it’s just not as good as a, like a journalist, a journalist who’s interviewed many external sources. AI can’t do that. AI can’t do that. Or if it can, but it takes a lot of human input to produce a piece of writing that has all of that integrated. So third-party expert interviews, I’ve talked to many sources. There are lots of verified data pieces integrated into this. AI is not good at doing that. And I think No. those little pieces are what raised that quality bar. And so until AI can get to that point where without human input of all those different facets that make a piece okay or really, really high quality, the human writer still has the advantage here. So that, that’s kind of where I fall on the whole thing.
[00:25:45.490] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, because you also, you know, David pointed out you’ve had this craze in SaaS, aren’t you, programmatic SEO, the idea that you can churn out hundreds, thousands of paid— there’s been cases where somebody over a couple of weeks have churned out 1,000 pages and they really don’t think they’re going to get kickback from Google. You know, I, I think they’re deluded, but—
[00:26:19.410] – Kaleigh Moore
I think so too.
[00:26:20.620] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, I think I am. I’m just surprised how— but before we go for our break, was, was I correct what I sensed when you were talking to, um, on the Edwards Show, that you were shocked by how much major players really just dumped their writers and just went in headfirst in, in pure AI content? Were you? Was she a little bit tight in the bank?
[00:26:49.060] – Kaleigh Moore
Of course. And I think I do ultimately understand it’s a business, it’s a business decision, it’s a way for them to scale their business more efficiently, and they have shareholders to report to. And so I do understand that it’s usually just a dollars and cents decision that they have to make based on what’s going to make them the most money. So I do understand it, and I, I’m kind of hoping that there will be a little bit of a correction where we course correct. And if people do find, hey, this doesn’t work long term, we can kind of correct the market and get back to a better place. But who knows? Who knows? I have no idea where all this will go.
[00:27:25.600] – Jonathan Denwood
And in some ways it’s the terrible contradiction we face ourselves that one of the leading players in AI, i.e., Google Gemini, It’s attitude. It’s a— but I suppose it’s between a stone and a rock and a hard place, really, because if it— I sense they really, they’re kind of driven in 2 different directions literally at the same time, and they’re just doing what they’ve got to do. And I think you’ve seen this with AI overviews, haven’t you?
[00:28:02.770] – Kaleigh Moore
Mm-hmm.
[00:28:03.350] – Jonathan Denwood
And it’s contradictory because obviously they’re PPC has gone up, but I think that’s driven by the amount of new adverts on YouTube. And in some ways, it, you know, if you expand AI Overviews, it must start to hit. But that’s a whole different, you know, can you have adverts in AI Overviews or in OpenAI in In these results so that I’m waffling. So we need to go for our mid— we need to go for our middle break. And we will be back in a few moments.
[00:28:45.100] – Speaker 4
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[00:29:21.540] – Speaker 5
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[00:29:58.700] – Jonathan Denwood
We’re coming back, folks. I want to point out that I do a fabulous newsletter. I write it myself with the assistance of AI, but then I find other articles and stuff that you will enjoy. That’s all done by myself, and I put it in all a nice newsletter, and it’s totally free. And you can find this newsletter by going over to wp-tonic.com/newsletter, wp-tonic.com/newsletter, and please sign up. You’ll get it on Tuesday and Wednesday. I’m going to throw it over to Kurt because I think I’ve been waffling. So over to you, Kurt.
[00:30:43.450] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, this question brings us almost back where we were a couple of questions ago. I feel like I jumped the shark and, and threw our content. Um, if people are looking at like an AEO strategy and we’re saying like from scratch, you know, you, you, you’ve launched a new e-commerce business. Like I have a client right now launched an e-commerce business selling diamond art, right? Um, I’ve got another client launching a dental hygienist practice. Um, what, what do you think is like, what’s the move, right? If you’re starting completely from scratch and you’re like new to this space. What’s, what’s the move? What makes sense? Like, what, how do you go, crap, I gotta embrace this. If I don’t, I’m gonna get left behind. What do I do?
[00:31:25.860] – Kaleigh Moore
I think the best way to start is to do a competitor analysis. So if there are competitors to your business who are showing up in AI answers, I would say start trying to reverse engineer what they’re doing that you are not, that you can maybe change either through net new content that you’re putting out on your own company blog, Piggybacking on a really high domain ranking authority site like LinkedIn and publishing articles there. It gets crawled daily. That has been a huge source of AI visibility for me, but it’s also just great for SEO. So publish once a week LinkedIn articles, and I think that that will do wonders. Again, thinking about answering customer questions, because that’s a big piece of answer engine optimization, is you need to not just write generally about what you do and who you are, but answer and anticipate customer questions. And I would also say just, again, reverse engineer as much as you can, put out strategic new content. And then the other thing is work on the third-party services because from all the data that I’ve seen, the real opportunity for building AI visibility is by being on not the company website, but publishing on LinkedIn, YouTube, Reddit, and then getting earned media.
[00:32:33.920] – Kaleigh Moore
So that’s interviews in press, that is going on podcast interviews, that is being on YouTube shows, talking to different people. Again, LinkedIn is a great place for this. You search for reporters who are asking questions about your topic and then try to chime in on those or directly reach out to that person. I think that these are all really great ways to start building visibility. But when it comes to the analytics piece, I would just say be very cautiously optimistic about all of it because if you show up one day, you might not show up 2 weeks from now. So remember that it is a moving target. There’s no, Oh, I got a citation in this engine. I’m going to keep it forever. The frequency and recency is a huge piece of all this. So it’s not something you can do once and then be like, okay, great, we did it. You have to keep doing it on an ongoing basis. So again, that’s why I think we’re going to see ahead of AEO, because this is a lot of moving parts. It could be potentially a lot of different departments involved in this work.
[00:33:32.120] – Kaleigh Moore
PR, earned media, community building, social media, influencer strategy. All of this can be tied into AI work. But there’s got to be somebody who’s overseeing the larger vision.
[00:33:43.750] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, in this answer, you finally hit on a channel that I mention all the time, and that’s LinkedIn. And I am baffled at this LinkedIn algorithm, mathematical thing, whatever we want to call it. I’m really big in LinkedIn. I even have a course on how to grow your presence in LinkedIn. So, like, LinkedIn groups for me, horrible. Like, I try LinkedIn groups, horrible. LinkedIn profile works great. You mentioned LinkedIn articles.
[00:34:10.220] – Speaker 5
Mm-hmm.
[00:34:10.480] – Kurt von Ahnen
I can put out, you know, I have a mail list that’s this big, this many people open it, right? And then I will duplicate that newsletter, that email newsletter as an article or sections of it as an article. Uh, and boom, like 2 days later I get 400 more people subscribed to your newsletter, subscribed, you read your article. Um, it is crazy. how effective LinkedIn can be, but it’s also equally as amazing as the pitfalls within that platform that don’t do anything. And so where do you think a newer business or someone new in this space, like where, if you’re, if they were new to the LinkedIn environment, again, because you mentioned it multiple times, I want to see if we’re on the same page. Like what, what do you, how do you think someone would grow that?
[00:34:58.460] – Speaker 5
Yeah.
[00:34:58.970] – Kaleigh Moore
So define that. Grow— you said grow that.
[00:35:02.380] – Kurt von Ahnen
Grow brand awareness, conversion to get to the website to see your actual offer or product. I think the problem with a lot of these social platforms— Instagram’s a perfect example. You can get on Instagram and you can get 1,500, 2,000 people following your Instagram pretty quickly, but that doesn’t mean you’ve got 2,000 people looking at your website and seeing your offer. That means you got 2,000 people that like your picture on Instagram. So it’s, it’s, there’s a difference between exposure and conversion.
[00:35:31.350] – Speaker 5
Yes.
[00:35:31.750] – Kurt von Ahnen
And so like when I’m in my LinkedIn space, there’s very much a personal Kurt Von Ahn inside of LinkedIn where I post a lot of my personal junk, right? Personal professional junk. But there is stuff that I expect people to go and see the podcast episode or come and see the new website that kicks ass on page speed or see the new client site that we just released, right? Because we always do a client spotlight when we release a new project. Because we’re always trying to bolster conversion using that LinkedIn channel. And I think we’ve gotten pretty good at it. But when I talk to people that aren’t LinkedIn fans, they’ll say, oh, that platform sucks. It never works. It’s a stupid Microsoft thing. I’m not going to deal with that. You know, I’m going to find something else. And I’m like, I don’t know that you should be passing up on that channel.
[00:36:16.270] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I— so here’s what I think. Here’s how I think about it. I think people like to buy from people. So if you are a business owner or again, an employee at a company posting on your individual personal LinkedIn page, not the brand company page, doing articles talking about what you know from hands-on experience working with your product and talking about solving the problems that your customers care about, that’s a really good way to do it. Again, going very into the weeds on the how and why and anticipating customer questions, that can be a good way to do it. Again, you’re also getting some nice SEO benefits from all this too. So If AI goes away tomorrow and SEO becomes the one true marketing metric again, you’re still doing this work. It is still related. It doesn’t exactly copy and paste over AEO to SEO and back and forth, but it’s still got that benefit. And so I would say, be a person who sells to other people. Talk about your expertise. Talk about just really showing that you are the person who knows about this one thing, and that will do the heavy lifting of driving the conversions because When they, when that customer or audience member thinks of, ooh, I need somebody who knows about X, you are very sticky in their mind.
[00:37:28.180] – Kaleigh Moore
So it might not be a direct conversion, but they will think of you as the person who does fill in the blank and who knows about that topic. That’s, that’s kind of how I’m thinking about it. But tell me if you see something different be more effective.
[00:37:40.530] – Kurt von Ahnen
No, no, it’s kind of, kind of where I’m at. It’s, it’s like I said, I’ve found that the groups and the business pages and the things like that, They haven’t really, um, come through for me. But the, the newsletter, the article, the, um, getting into other people’s, you know, comment sections and just being stinking helpful. Yeah. Uh, that seems to drive more attention and awareness to my brand than almost anything else I’ve done.
[00:38:06.640] – Kaleigh Moore
Mm-hmm. Same.
[00:38:09.000] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah.
[00:38:09.750] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, that drives it back to you, Jonathan.
[00:38:11.840] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah. What’s your attitude towards video? How important do you think video is on LinkedIn? You know, YouTube, TikTok, how, how do you see that affecting the landscape in 2026?
[00:38:28.090] – Kaleigh Moore
I can’t speak to TikTok because I’m not on it and I don’t use it. And I know that as of right now, AI tools really can’t crawl it because it’s video. There’s no text for it to crawl and LLMs need text to be able to review the content. And again, that’s current right now, but we’ll see if that changes. I think video is great because again, it’s a human to human experience where one person is teaching you something or talking through a problem that you need to solve with a very simple answer. It’s a short-form format. So people’s attention spans are more split than ever. If you can create a short-form video that answers their question and also has the visual component, because nobody has time to read long-form anymore, unfortunately, they want a quick answer and they want it told to them in a format that’s very easy to get what they need, and then they can move on. So I think of video as I repurpose all of my newsletters into videos that are 5 minutes or less, because again, some people aren’t going to read, but they are going to go to YouTube and say, I need to answer this question.
[00:39:25.200] – Kaleigh Moore
I want to be the video answer to that, and I want to do it in a tight, concise format. I want to have lots of charts and graphs to make the complex ideas simple and easy to understand. Video is such a great visual way to do that. So I think it is a huge piece of the puzzle. Both for AI visibility, but also just for answering questions and for being the person on your topic that you want to be known for, who’s out there proactively answering questions related to said topic and talking about what the news and trends are around that. I think it’s just a really smart play for the person-to-person aspect of all of this.
[00:39:58.900] – Jonathan Denwood
I’m going to change the question. Next question. You mentioned you’ve been doing this university course and that around AI. What’s some of the biggest things you’ve learned so far that surprised you about doing it?
[00:40:14.520] – Kaleigh Moore
I, I think the ethics component of all of it is very interesting. And I think when I first started the coursework, I thought, oh, what a great topic for me to dive into. This is the thing that I should be talking about and getting people to think about. The ethics of— there’s so much nuance and complexity to how these answers are generated. There’s bias incorporated because they are pulling from published information and what’s sources are they consulting? And what I learned very quickly was that no one really cares about the ethics of AI. They want the quick, fast, easy answer to their question, ethics be damned. So I, I find that piece very fascinating, but I very quickly realized nobody really wants to talk about the ethical components. They just like the convenience. So that’s kind of a disappointing realization that I came to, but That’s, that’s where I’m at with all of it.
[00:41:06.050] – Jonathan Denwood
Do you think, do you think the search journey to buy a product and service has changed? Because I think it is. I think, I think people are using these platforms to do research, and I think it depends on the price point, doesn’t it? The bigger the price point, the more money involved, they do additional research. Or do you think I’m wrong about it? Just What’s your own feeling about the search landscape? Is it, is it being dramatically changed or there’s some change, but it’s still— what’s your own feelings about this?
[00:41:47.160] – Kaleigh Moore
From inside the bubble, I think search has changed, and I know that I’ve seen data that says 1 in 3 searches now start with an AI tool. So I do think adoption rate has happened way quicker than anything else. Even my parents who live in the middle of nowhere in Illinois have started thinking about AI tools and using these search engines instead of Google. So I think the adoption speed is very quick, but I just am very curious about the mechanics of all of it. And I, like you said, when it comes to a big decision like software, a big purchasing decision, many thousands of dollars, potentially in the hundreds of thousands, I do think people are getting their shortlist. from an AI tool, but then they’re going in and doing the research and the evaluation process. So it’s not a, oh, people are only using AI. I think they’re using it as a springboard. That’s at least what I’ve seen so far. And I’d love to know if you’ve seen or heard otherwise.
[00:42:40.940] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, there’s so much, you know, there’s so much contradictory information because, you know, I’ve, because I think there’s 2 things affecting it, isn’t it? Search volume, you know, I think everybody’s seen a reduction in clicks, views, probably not quite so much. But, you know, you’ve got this combination of people looking, utilizing these tools, and then you’ve got what Google has done with AI overviews, you know, and I’ve got to say to myself, if I’ve got a quick question and, you know, I just view AI overviews to some extent as Wikipedia on steroids, really. It’s just doing what Wikipedia used to do for me.
[00:43:31.670] – Speaker 5
Mm-hmm.
[00:43:32.390] – Jonathan Denwood
Um, if you’re looking for a quick answer or insight, and then, um, it, it, depending on how important it is, I probably then will look at the links. And then do some more. On the other hand, if it’s very deep general research, I probably— my tool is Perplexity. I personally find that for doing general deeper research, I find Perplexity quite good. But then it gives me insight in a particular industry in the sector that I don’t really know a lot about. And then it gives me links to websites and then I do my own. I write down some notes, I use Perplexity again to do a revision, and then I think about it, you know. But I also know some people, I’ve noticed some people that, you know, they’re putting the question into ChatGPT. And they come answer and it’s something to do with WordPress or something to do with web design or something. And I know the answer they’ve been given is bullshit, so I was going to swear there. Um, it’s not a very good answer and they believe it straight away. They, they don’t do— if it comes out the machine, it must be true.
[00:45:03.940] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah.
[00:45:04.110] – Jonathan Denwood
So it’s all over the place again, isn’t it? It is.
[00:45:07.570] – Kurt von Ahnen
It is.
[00:45:09.480] – Jonathan Denwood
If what you have observed matches what I’ve observed in your habit when you’re doing research.
[00:45:15.260] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I do think there is some misinformation. I do think there is some ways to manipulate what the answers are that are generated. And that’s kind of what I touched on earlier with people are finding ways to manufacture or buy influence essentially for, oh, we want the answer to be this. So here’s kind of the path to get there. And that’s why I just, I hope that people don’t lose their ability to exercise critical thinking skills, to do their due diligence, to do their research, do their homework. That to me is a responsible consumer. But I, again, I think people, what I’m learning is that people want cheap, easy, fast, done. You know, they, they don’t care about the due diligence. They just want it done. So it’s a, again, that’s the ethical component of all of this that I I don’t know where things will shake out.
[00:46:03.120] – Jonathan Denwood
So this gets back, um, obviously you can’t name names or anything, um, but, or maybe you’re— are there any, um, brands, smaller brands? I’m not saying that you worked with them, but any brand, any kind of— I’m not talking about national brands, but is there any kind of niche brands that you’ve noticed recently that you think are doing a good job in this new environment?
[00:46:33.000] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I, I don’t know if everyone watching this will know who Stripe is, but Stripe, the payment processing, they’re a pretty big company. Um, but I think that they have been very strategic in how they show up well beyond their company website. So in Reddit forums, Discord communities, um, just really making sure that they have a presence there. And, and again, Leveraging employee experts, they’re doing a great job of that. That’s one that’s on the top of my mind. As far as smaller companies, I just think that smaller companies, they are so resource-strapped, and so it’s harder to lean into a multifaceted project like this right now. I do think they’ll get there, but I still think we’re too early for a lot of smaller companies to really have a good handle on this. So if you, if either of you know of one, I’d love to hear it because I’m always looking for case studies.
[00:47:23.170] – Jonathan Denwood
Well, I think, I think Edward Stern’s doing a good job, you know, doing a podcast every day.
[00:47:30.300] – Kaleigh Moore
Every day.
[00:47:31.420] – Jonathan Denwood
I’ve been doing this for about 9 years and I’m over 1,000. He’s just been doing it for a couple of years and he’s over 1,000. But I think he’s built quite a strong following, a strong brand in the SEO community by doing a podcast every day, which I think is semi-bonkers, but, um, uh, um, but he done it. And I, I think he’s used social media quite intelligently as well. So he does come to mind. Um, but apart from that, I, I think, I think the landscape is dramatically changing. What about podcasting? Um, ’cause I still believe in podcasting. I think going on podcasts and making podcasts is important. What’s your own feeling about that?
[00:48:24.950] – Kaleigh Moore
I’m very big on podcasts and mostly because it’s the easiest way for me to learn. I’m an audio-based listener. I love to go on long walks and learn while I’m multitasking, folding laundry. I don’t have time to sit down and read. That requires me to stop everything and just sit down and focus. But if I can multitask, and still learn. Podcasts to me are the best way to do that. They are extremely current. You can stay up to date on things, especially on the AI front, as everything is changing so quickly. Podcasts are very dynamic. You can stay up to date on everything. It’s not a book that’s been published once and now is beginning to age. The material is out of date. I think they’re great.
[00:49:03.950] – Jonathan Denwood
Over to you, Kurt.
[00:49:06.780] – Kurt von Ahnen
I’m sorry, but I’m still wrapped up in the 1 out of every 3 searches starts with AI. So, And that’s only because the 3 of us, we’re in a different environment than mass population. I think about my wife. She updates her Google Pixel phone and she’s like, oh, what is this? It says it’s going to automatically install some Gemini thing. And then all of her searches are all of a sudden AI instigated, but she didn’t choose it. And I think that’s an important thing to at least mention on the show, right? It’s like, We see people that are not IT experts, right? The people that are not in our space that are almost being forced into this compliance with AI, but they didn’t choose the AI. Like, if you go into Google now and you go to the search bar and you type something in, it’ll go, oh, AI response. And it’s like, that’s not what, that’s not what the consumer was looking for. The consumer wanted to see the old school 3 pages of results.
[00:50:04.370] – Speaker 5
Yes.
[00:50:04.850] – Kurt von Ahnen
But now what they see is, you know, the AI overview. So, it’s been a very interesting transition to me because it, to me, feels like they might say, oh, we’re gaining adoption. They phrase it in nice ways, right? But they’re not gaining adoption without force, which is a different category altogether. And I just say that because I have so much anecdotal experience with people. Jonathan will tell you, my favorite place in the world is a taproom here in town. I love the beer, but the people that I run into are from all walks of life. And when we have— I run the WordPress meetup there, and so I’m doing WordPress meetup, but I’m talking to other people and they’re like, oh yeah, I’m being forced into this, or forced— I hate this thing, I hate my phone, I hate my whatever. And it’s like, it’s not, it’s not going in a positive direction with the general populace, I feel.
[00:51:00.150] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah. So were you gonna say something?
[00:51:04.800] – Jonathan Denwood
For me? I think, um, I— well, the fact is what you said, wasn’t it? Um, that 1 in 3 searches are coming from it. But I think what Kirk’s reflecting on is maybe how AI has been introduced into the workplace, isn’t it?
[00:51:27.720] – Kurt von Ahnen
Mm-hmm.
[00:51:28.270] – Jonathan Denwood
Because that’s another story, because I was listening to this morning, doing my walk, listening to my podcast, podcasts. But then it came on my radar that they were saying that only like 1% of all usage of AI is coming from 1% of companies. And that was a bit of an eye-opener. But I’m not surprised, but because integrating AI into a company in an effective way, a small, medium, and especially a larger company, isn’t something to be undertaken lightly, I would have thought. And they just, they just seem to be headline head A rush into it and not enough thought about it. And, um, I use— I’m sure you do— I use a lot of AI myself and I find it very useful. Um, but I think this whole show has been about the contradiction that we’ve— we’re all facing at the present moment, aren’t we, about this technology? It seems to have 2 faces to it, um, quite negative but also very positive. And we’re all trying to find what our way between these 2 polar extremes, and we’re constantly being tagged from one polar to the other. Do you think I’m correct about that?
[00:53:13.980] – Kaleigh Moore
I do. I think it’s, it’s, I think it’s why there’s a lot of tension around this topic right now where people are worried about the data centers and all the logistics that AI requires. But at the same time, you have— so I feel like you have the doomers and you have the optimists. You know, you have these 2 very opposite ends of the spectrum where both are talking very loudly about it’s great and it’s terrible. And the answer is it depends somewhere in the middle. It’s great and it’s terrible at the same time. So I think that that is the reality of where things stand right now. I don’t know where things will shake out. And I’ve said that many times over the course of this podcast and this conversation, but I, I just am very curious to take an anthropologist lens to all of it and see what, what happens.
[00:54:01.230] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, I’m gonna give Kurt the last question. I’m gonna do the last question, Kurt.
[00:54:06.460] – Speaker 5
Sure.
[00:54:07.430] – Kurt von Ahnen
This is our fun question. We do this with a lot of our guests. If you had your own TARDIS or time machine or something to go back in time to the beginning of your career before you knew about the source signal stack, what advice would you give yourself?
[00:54:22.110] – Kaleigh Moore
I would have got on YouTube from day one. I would have started making YouTube videos and being a knowledge creator 10+ years ago. And I’ve stopped and started over the years. But I just think YouTube, as I said, is such a great way to share information. It’s interactive. It can be very visually dynamic. I am kicking myself that I didn’t do that sooner. So that, that would be my answer. I would have got on YouTube and started making videos right away.
[00:54:50.130] – Kurt von Ahnen
That’s pretty dang insightful. My most popular YouTube video was made like 19 years ago. I was working on a minibike to put an overbore kit in it, and everybody wants to see that video, and I haven’t been able to find the secret sauce since.
[00:55:05.540] – Kaleigh Moore
Dang. Yeah, you just struck gold.
[00:55:09.970] – Jonathan Denwood
So, Kaylee, what’s the best way for people to find out more about you and your Thoughts about AI and B2B content strategy?
[00:55:19.940] – Kaleigh Moore
Yeah, I have a newsletter that goes out weekly. It’s Context Window. I spend way too much time on Twitter and on LinkedIn, so you can find me in either of those places. And yeah, that’s kind of the main 3.
[00:55:33.290] – Jonathan Denwood
I keep insisting on calling it Twitter.
[00:55:36.370] – Kurt von Ahnen
I do too.
[00:55:36.920] – Kaleigh Moore
It’s always gonna be Twitter.
[00:55:38.210] – Jonathan Denwood
Yeah, I don’t like using X. I kind of oscillate, but I’m still going. So, Kurt, what’s the best place for people to find out more about you?
[00:55:49.240] – Kurt von Ahnen
Well, I’m on X and LinkedIn as well, and then the website is mañananomas.com.
[00:55:53.260] – Jonathan Denwood
That’s fantastic. And if you want to support the show, folks, and you’re listening on your mobile device on Spotify or Apple, um, podcasting, leave us a review. It’s really easy, and it really does mean that the show will be shown to new people, and our audience has started to grow again, which is great news. We will be back next week with another great interview. We’ll see you soon, folks. Bye.
[00:56:22.510] – Kurt von Ahnen
Hey, thanks for listening.
[00:56:23.780] – Jonathan Denwood
We really do appreciate it. Why not visit the Mastermind Facebook group?
[00:56:28.770] – Kurt von Ahnen
And also, to keep up with the latest news, click wp-tonic.com/newsletter. We’ll see you next time.
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